The "Unforgivable" Sin

[turzovka]

It would be nice if all christains acted like Jesus

And if we do not often enough there are consequences, but still in no way cancels out our other efforts like prayer.

We Christians are obliged not only to forgive the sins of unbelievers but the sins of other Christians as well. Obedience is not easy, but if one is sincere, I agree, you would expect to notice improvements.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Proverbs 20:11
Even a child is known by his actions, by whether his conduct is ... Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

 

[JakeStarkey]

TIR wants to put words in other peoples mouths instead of putting the words of the Bible in his own.

So your remark about my lack of expertise concerning the Bible has less to do with what the Bible actually says, and more to do with not being in line with what you perceive your relationship with God is?
So in your relationship with God, what has He told you that can't be verified in His Word?
What did He tell you about purgatory? And does it align with what He said in the Bible?
Then show me where what I said lacks expertise according to His word......

 

[turzovka]

Turz, purgatory was Catholic dogma without any basis in fact so the Catholics have done away with the erroneous premise.

One faulty statement by you is says a lot to me. For one, you do not know Catholic teaching well at all to be so wrong on such a crucial doctrine.

Also, Catholic dogma can never change.

Really? How was that cod you ate last Fri.?

AGAIN:
NYTimes
Published: April 21, 2007

The netherworld of limbo, long speculated in Roman Catholic teaching as the destination of babies who die unbaptized, has been replaced with the “prayerful hope” that they reach heaven. Pope Benedict XVI signed a theological report, years in the making, that effectively demoted limbo, a place neither in heaven nor in hell, where unbaptized babies would not be in communion with God but would nonetheless enjoy eternal happiness. Many in the church felt the idea, never formally a part of church doctrine, was outdated and caused undue worry for parents.

So I take it you also believe in replacement theology, where Catholic men rewrote what God said and then produced their own version of the Bible?


Jake, I could say the same about you if you ever posted substance instead of Snarkey.
So was I wrong about dogma, or suicide, or both? Dazzle me with YOUR knowledge.......

If you are a well-informed adversary of the Church, you are not acting like it.

The Church has a great degree of flexibility on the ruling of certain disciplines and laws. Abstaining from meat was a discipline, which I won't bother to elaborate on. Purgatory is an infallible doctrine of divine revelation. We cannot decide purgatory no longer exists any more than they can now say Jesus never died on the cross. So you can forego the meatless Fridays, and married priests, and limbo arguments. Limbo has never been an official teaching of the Church just as the other poster quoted. It had its good reasonings for its considerations at the time.

Your premises are bad so your reasoning that follows cannot be sound. Including your other declaration how "Catholic men rewrote the Bible?" Whatever?

 

[The Irish Ram]

One faulty statement by you is says a lot to me. For one, you do not know Catholic teaching well at all to be so wrong on such a crucial doctrine.

Also, Catholic dogma can never change.

Really? How was that cod you ate last Fri.?

AGAIN:
NYTimes
Published: April 21, 2007

The netherworld of limbo, long speculated in Roman Catholic teaching as the destination of babies who die unbaptized, has been replaced with the “prayerful hope” that they reach heaven. Pope Benedict XVI signed a theological report, years in the making, that effectively demoted limbo, a place neither in heaven nor in hell, where unbaptized babies would not be in communion with God but would nonetheless enjoy eternal happiness. Many in the church felt the idea, never formally a part of church doctrine, was outdated and caused undue worry for parents.

So I take it you also believe in replacement theology, where Catholic men rewrote what God said and then produced their own version of the Bible?


Jake, I could say the same about you if you ever posted substance instead of Snarkey.
So was I wrong about dogma, or suicide, or both? Dazzle me with YOUR knowledge.......

If you are a well-informed adversary of the Church, you are not acting like it.

The Church has a great degree of flexibility on the ruling of certain disciplines and laws. Abstaining from meat was a discipline, which I won't bother to elaborate on. Purgatory is an infallible doctrine of divine revelation. We cannot decide purgatory no longer exists any more than they can now say Jesus never died on the cross. So you can forego the meatless Fridays, and married priests, and limbo arguments. Limbo has never been an official teaching of the Church just as the other poster quoted. It had its good reasonings for its considerations at the time.

Your premises are bad so your reasoning that follows cannot be sound. Including your other declaration how "Catholic men rewrote the Bible?" Whatever?

The church has NO flexibility:

Deuteronomy 4:2 "You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it.........
And another warning is in Revelation 22:19.

Purgatory has been taught in the Catholic church since the 1322, Pope John XXII decree.
It is Catholic tradition, not Biblical. Pope John added to............

Purgatory is an infallible doctrine of divine revelation. We cannot decide purgatory no longer exists any more than they can now say Jesus never died on the cross.

Why not? You decided that it exists, why can't you decide it doesn't? In fact, the "church" just did what you say they couldn't do. Pope John added too and Benedict took away from.

I am not an adversary of the Church or Catholics. My husband (yes Jake, my husband because you can't grasp> little girl/ram tough) is an excellent one.
Fish/no fish, no electric, no make up, bongs for Jesus, is all bullshit.

So let me ask you turv, "Where do babies that are not yet baptized go when they die??

I am an adversary of adding to and taking away from.

And Jake, nothing of substance just more snark. I can't show you the Biblical phrase that suicides cannot be saved. Because it doesn't exist. That is Catholic dogma. I can and did use scripture to refute it.

 

[turzovka]

Really? How was that cod you ate last Fri.?

AGAIN:
NYTimes
Published: April 21, 2007



So I take it you also believe in replacement theology, where Catholic men rewrote what God said and then produced their own version of the Bible?


Jake, I could say the same about you if you ever posted substance instead of Snarkey.
So was I wrong about dogma, or suicide, or both? Dazzle me with YOUR knowledge.......

If you are a well-informed adversary of the Church, you are not acting like it.

The Church has a great degree of flexibility on the ruling of certain disciplines and laws. Abstaining from meat was a discipline, which I won't bother to elaborate on. Purgatory is an infallible doctrine of divine revelation. We cannot decide purgatory no longer exists any more than they can now say Jesus never died on the cross. So you can forego the meatless Fridays, and married priests, and limbo arguments. Limbo has never been an official teaching of the Church just as the other poster quoted. It had its good reasonings for its considerations at the time.

Your premises are bad so your reasoning that follows cannot be sound. Including your other declaration how "Catholic men rewrote the Bible?" Whatever?

The church has NO flexibility:

Deuteronomy 4:2 "You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it.........
And another warning is in Revelation 22:19.

Purgatory has been taught in the Catholic church since the 1322, Pope John XXII decree.
It is Catholic tradition, not Biblical. Pope John added to............

Purgatory is an infallible doctrine of divine revelation. We cannot decide purgatory no longer exists any more than they can now say Jesus never died on the cross.

Why not? You decided that it exists, why can't you decide it doesn't? In fact, the "church" just did what you say they couldn't do. Pope John added too and Benedict took away from.

I am not an adversary of the Church or Catholics. My husband (yes Jake, my husband because you can't grasp> little girl/ram tough) is an excellent one.
Fish/no fish, no electric, no make up, bongs for Jesus, is all bullshit.

So let me ask you turv, "Where do babies that are not yet baptized go when they die??

I am an adversary of adding to and taking away from.

And Jake, nothing of substance just more snark. I can't show you the Biblical phrase that suicides cannot be saved. Because it doesn't exist. That is Catholic dogma. I can and did use scripture to refute it.

I am not accusing you of being not intelligent, nor I am saying you are not sincere. I am saying your claims about the Catholic Church are bogus and you toss the words dogma and doctrine around in a whimsical way applying it to whatever you may.

There has NEVER been any dogma or doctrine or fomal teaching as to where suicide victim’s souls go. Nor has there been any accepted universal teaching about limbo either. Whatever some priest or some bishop says about suicide victim’s is to comfort a family or to warn another, perhaps. It has it’s good intent. The same for unbaptized infants who die. But to answer your question with some personal assurance as to where they go? ---- they go to heaven. None go to hell.

The Catholic Church has never declared any particular soul as condemned to hell. They leave that judgment to God, end of story. But you make a lot of statements that have no basis in truth or sensibility. Such as this one: “The church has NO flexibility: Deuteronomy 4:2 "You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it.....”

That is not what it means. It is not a universal law that completely stifles revelation and judicial prudence. Jesus said this to His Apostles when He established His Church ---- “Whatever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven. Whatever you shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” Does that sound like no flexibility to you? Does that sound like God did not intend for man to try to reason out things for ourselves based on what was given to us by Christ? Do I have to find other verses supporting this idea? The Church is the supreme authority on earth representing the Christian faith that despite its failures and human weaknesses is still honored by God to be followed.

Purgatory is as sound of a Biblical doctrine as anything else. I could site numerous verses speaking to it. The earliest of Church fathers spoke to it. Many doctrines were necessary to be worked out and heresy rebuffed in the earliest centuries. What is so hard to accept about that?

 

[Avatar4321]

Because you don't know or believe in the Bible as do the cultist evangelicals here, and you don't know the Holy Spirit.

You are part of the unlettered folks here, Avatar. Most Mormons are in your boat. You don't even know your own scriptures.

Why are we worrying what unlettered folks here think what the Bible means?

Why would we be concerned what a lettered person thinks about what the Bible means when the Bible and Spirit say otherwise?

Funny. I know them better than you.

 

[Avatar4321]

JakeStarkey;6420224]The Irish Ram is no more an expert of The Holy Bible as well as doctrine versus dogma than is Avatar4321.

Which should make it very easy to prove me wrong.
Do so.

He won't.

 

[Avatar4321]

It would be nice if all christains acted like Jesus

If we all acted like Jesus, there would be no need for Him.

 

[Avatar4321]

Don't have to, merely putting out a warning for those who have ears to hear and eyes to see.

JakeStarkey;6420224]The Irish Ram is no more an expert of The Holy Bible as well as doctrine versus dogma than is Avatar4321.

Which should make it very easy to prove me wrong.
Do so.

Called it

 

[The Irish Ram]

TIR, I know what I believe and live by it. I have a relationship with my Lord and Savior.

What you say pro or con means nothing to the truth of my relationship with Jesus Christ.

Then let's put it to the test:
My personal relationship with Jesus Christ, and His teachings , tell me not to go near judging Av's personal relationship with the Holy Spirit of God.
In fact It is noticeable in her.
Am I in accordance with what the Bible says to do? Matthew 7:1?

Christ said, "My sheep know my voice". You hear his voice by reading what He said, not by listening to someone speaking in your head, or a preacher's head, or a church's head, telling you what He said, or what He meant when He said it. You'll be deceived if you do it any other way. Whatever relationship truth you absorb, take it to the Bible for confirmation. That's what it is there for.

 

[The Irish Ram]

If you are a well-informed adversary of the Church, you are not acting like it.

The Church has a great degree of flexibility on the ruling of certain disciplines and laws. Abstaining from meat was a discipline, which I won't bother to elaborate on. Purgatory is an infallible doctrine of divine revelation. We cannot decide purgatory no longer exists any more than they can now say Jesus never died on the cross. So you can forego the meatless Fridays, and married priests, and limbo arguments. Limbo has never been an official teaching of the Church just as the other poster quoted. It had its good reasonings for its considerations at the time.

Your premises are bad so your reasoning that follows cannot be sound. Including your other declaration how "Catholic men rewrote the Bible?" Whatever?

The church has NO flexibility:

Deuteronomy 4:2 "You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it.........
And another warning is in Revelation 22:19.

Purgatory has been taught in the Catholic church since the 1322, Pope John XXII decree.
It is Catholic tradition, not Biblical. Pope John added to............

Purgatory is an infallible doctrine of divine revelation. We cannot decide purgatory no longer exists any more than they can now say Jesus never died on the cross.

Why not? You decided that it exists, why can't you decide it doesn't? In fact, the "church" just did what you say they couldn't do. Pope John added too and Benedict took away from.

I am not an adversary of the Church or Catholics. My husband (yes Jake, my husband because you can't grasp> little girl/ram tough) is an excellent one.
Fish/no fish, no electric, no make up, bongs for Jesus, is all bullshit.

So let me ask you turv, "Where do babies that are not yet baptized go when they die??

I am an adversary of adding to and taking away from.

And Jake, nothing of substance just more snark. I can't show you the Biblical phrase that suicides cannot be saved. Because it doesn't exist. That is Catholic dogma. I can and did use scripture to refute it.

I am not accusing you of being not intelligent, nor I am saying you are not sincere. I am saying your claims about the Catholic Church are bogus and you toss the words dogma and doctrine around in a whimsical way applying it to whatever you may.

There has NEVER been any dogma or doctrine or fomal teaching as to where suicide victim’s souls go. Nor has there been any accepted universal teaching about limbo either. Whatever some priest or some bishop says about suicide victim’s is to comfort a family or to warn another, perhaps. It has it’s good intent. The same for unbaptized infants who die. But to answer your question with some personal assurance as to where they go? ---- they go to heaven. None go to hell.

The Catholic Church has never declared any particular soul as condemned to hell. They leave that judgment to God, end of story. But you make a lot of statements that have no basis in truth or sensibility. Such as this one: “The church has NO flexibility: Deuteronomy 4:2 "You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it.....”

That is not what it means. It is not a universal law that completely stifles revelation and judicial prudence. Jesus said this to His Apostles when He established His Church ---- “Whatever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven. Whatever you shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” Does that sound like no flexibility to you? Does that sound like God did not intend for man to try to reason out things for ourselves based on what was given to us by Christ? Do I have to find other verses supporting this idea? The Church is the supreme authority on earth representing the Christian faith that despite its failures and human weaknesses is still honored by God to be followed.

Purgatory is as sound of a Biblical doctrine as anything else. I could site numerous verses speaking to it. The earliest of Church fathers spoke to it. Many doctrines were necessary to be worked out and heresy rebuffed in the earliest centuries. What is so hard to accept about that?

Assuming that we both understand the meanings of dogma and doctrine, I can't think of one church that hasn't replaced biblical doctrine with their own brand of dogma. That is why we have not one church of Christ's, but tons of "denominations".

Catholic's teach catechism, the Catholic doctrine on faith and morals. They don't teach Baptist doctrine, or Nazarene doctrine.

Deuteronomy 4:2 "You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it.....”

means exactly what it says. It does not exclude study, revelation, or prudence. It promotes it by calling us to judge the only thing the Bible allows us to judge. Righteous judgement. If a nun taught you something in Catechism, you are to judge what she said based on Biblical scripture to see if it is righteous or man contrived.
The verse you quoted was directed at the disciples directly and does NOT mean
that the disciples were to unilaterally decide a matter, thus binding "heaven" to their decision. Look at the tense of the verbs.
It means that their decision, will be in line with what already was God's mind on the issue.
It means that the apostles were Jesus' authoritative spokesmen and that their decisions would be binding. Jesus spoke God's authoritative words and authorized His apostles to speak those words to the church.

Nowhere does the Bible say it is ok to replace Bible truth for church truth.
Nowhere does it say that at it's worst the Church is the supreme authority of the Christian faith. If you believe that read what Christ said to the Church of Laodicea. So much for human flexibility. No honor to be had there.

We are the church. Not Rome.

Nowhere does the Bible say that children go to purgatory. Or that purgatory exists. If you believe that children go to Heaven, then was your church wrong from the 1300's to now? or is it right now, or is children going to heaven just a feeling of yours? And how comforting was the church's lack of understanding of Abraham's bosom for the mother that lost her child in the 1400's?

So yes, if you claim scripture, you will have to provide scripture on God telling us to lean on our own understanding instead of every word from God.
And scripture about dead children not going to Heaven when they die.

 

[JakeStarkey]

There is no test, child.

You may be a Man of God in your mind, but you are a child if you are quarreling about these matters.

TIR, I know what I believe and live by it. I have a relationship with my Lord and Savior.

What you say pro or con means nothing to the truth of my relationship with Jesus Christ.

Then let's put it to the test:
My personal relationship with Jesus Christ, and His teachings , tell me not to go near judging Av's personal relationship with the Holy Spirit of God.
In fact It is noticeable in her.
Am I in accordance with what the Bible says to do? Matthew 7:1?

Christ said, "My sheep know my voice". You hear his voice by reading what He said, not by listening to someone speaking in your head, or a preacher's head, or a church's head, telling you what He said, or what He meant when He said it. You'll be deceived if you do it any other way. Whatever relationship truth you absorb, take it to the Bible for confirmation. That's what it is there for.

 

[Avatar4321]

There is no test, child.

You may be a Man of God in your mind, but you are a child if you are quarreling about these matters.

Should I take this as an admission that you are a child? (which really isn't bad per se) After all, you started this quarrel about it.

 

[AVG-JOE]

The "Unforgivable" Sin

Monkeys squabbling over ancient stories.

The last 2,000 years are done and buried..... look to the next 2,000 for your future.

 

[Avatar4321]

The "Unforgivable" Sin

Monkeys squabbling over ancient stories.

The last 2,000 years are done and buried..... look to the next 2,000 for your future.

I don't think it's wise to ignore history.

 

[newpolitics]

It would be nice if all christains acted like Jesus

If we all acted like Jesus, there would be no need for Him.

Umm... yes, there would still be a need for him. In christian mythology, Jesus is the son of god, and only through him can you be saved from hell. Salvation is attainable through faith alone, or sola fide, according to

Mark 13:31

This is necessary to believe. This cannot be otherwise acquired or grasped by any work, law or merit. Therefore, it is clear and certain that this faith alone justifies us ... Nothing of this article can be yielded or surrendered, even though heaven and earth and everything else falls.

John 3:18, 36

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already .... He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

It would be nice if Christians actually read their bible. Then again, those who have usually find out how contradictory it is and can no longer maintain faith.

This next passage contradicts entirely, the above passages. No wonder christians are so confused.

Matthew 16:27

For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.



So, which is it, faith or works? Apparently it is both faith alone, and works alone, which are two mutually exclusive propositions. In other, this is a contradiction. By my standard, this completely falsifies the notion that the bible is inspired by a perfect being.

 

[Avatar4321]

The Atonement of Jesus Christ was performed to reconcile us to God for our sins. If we were like Christ and had no sins, then we wouldn't need to be reconciled, would we?

 

[Avatar4321]

So, which is it, faith or works? Apparently it is both faith alone, and works alone, which are two mutually exclusive propositions. In other, this is a contradiction. By my standard, this completely falsifies the notion that the bible is inspired by a perfect being.

Except you're arguing a false dichotemy.

 

[JakeStarkey]

We, in this sense, are all but a child, including you and me.

I hope you are fulfilled in your faith walk.

Preventing the bullying of others is an admirable trait in a child.

There is no test, child.

You may be a Man of God in your mind, but you are a child if you are quarreling about these matters.

Should I take this as an admission that you are a child? (which really isn't bad per se) After all, you started this quarrel about it.