The two ends of the political spectrum are killing us

[BlackSand]

It was okay until the Dems refused to hold up their end of the bargain. So yeah, poor judgment on Reagan's part. He should have demanded a clause of no amnesty until you secure the border and pass permanent legislation that eliminates any advantage to anybody coming to America illegally.

It's like the dumb decision made by "George H.W. Bush" to break his 'no new taxes' pledge in return for the Democrats agreement to significantly cut the budget and lower the deficit. We got the new taxes and it cost Bush 43 his second term, but the Democrats never ever reduced the budget a dime.

.

Oh ... They have all made dumb mistakes ... We all make mistakes.

The point I was trying to make with that would be our National Concern and Federal Obligation.
I can see where the President should use their influence to address what is a Federal Obligation in Securing our borders and Ensuring our Sovereignty.

He didn't have to entertain the idea of Amnesty for Foreign Nationals.
Congress already had provided us Legislation addressing Immigration and had the ability to Reform Immigration requirements.

One was an Obligation ... The other was a Desire ... And they did not need to be combined.
The Desire was addressed ... And the Obligation was neglected.

However ... If I had to say anything good about President Reagan ... He had the support of the People.
When re-elected ... President Reagan carried every State in the Electoral College with the exception of Minnesota.

.​

 

[Foxfyre]

In war, you have to think with your brain, not your intestines.

The US allied with Communists to destroy Nazis.

It allied with one kind of Communist to oppose another kind. We even trained Communist pilots to fly our fighter jets, which we gave to these Communists.

[ Yugoslav Air Force - Wikipedia ]

In war, you do what you have to do in order to win.

You look for contradictions in the enemy camp and try to open them up. You try to pull neutrals into being allies, even weak allies. You try to pull the enemy's allies into neutrality.

The Left is not monolithic. There are millions of rank and file Democrats who are deeply uneasy about the direction the Democratic Party is taking with respect to our culture. They like trade unions and workers compensation and Obamacare, but don't want their children interfered with by sexual deviants.

There are Black people who want their children to go to decent schools, and know that School Choice is the only way this is going to happen.

We can win them. You'll probably recognize the names of a couple of Democrats who defected to the Republican side in the past : One starts with "R" and ends with "N". The other starts with "T" and ends with "P".

There are also people who are conscious hard Leftists, but who are at odds with various aspects of Democratic policy: for example, over the war in Ukraine. Others don't like the Left's attack on free speech. Others don't like its attacks on the idea of reason and science and objective truth..

We need to seek ways to work with these people. We have to do whatever it takes to win.

You've touched on something that totally exasperates me re so many Patriots. They can be so quick to condemn and/or cancel or declare "RINO" or "traitor" or some such anybody who supports or suggests or promotes something the Patriot disagrees with or says something the Patriot doesn't like.

However short sighted they might be, there are honorable Patriots who don't like Trump for instance. There are some who are pro Roe V Wade as it was originally intended. There are some who over the years have formed friendships with leftists we hold in contempt. (Think of how different they were but how close friends Scalia was with Ginsberg. It affected how each adjudicated not at all.)

When we make our disagreements and contempt for various individuals more important than our common MAGA vision of a strong, secure, prosperous, free America for everybody, we will not be pulling together in harness to reach a common vision and goals.

Until we are willing to allow our own the liberty to disagree, have their own thoughts, opinions, judgments about things, and be who they are, to be different so long as we all share that common vision and goals, we will beat ourselves every time.

 

[francoHFW]

The clock IS ticking. But it's not ticking because we are being nasty to each other. That's an effect, not a cause. A set of factors is causing the US to come apart. (I've got some ideas about some of them, but no overall explanation). The low level of our discourse is not an important cause (okay, everything is dialectical, and there is probably some positive feedback).

It's a mistake to look at communications issues as central to conflict. This is the error made by the great Alfred Korzybski, whose 'General Semantics' has a lot of good sense in it. (If you're not familiar with these people, you should check them out.). [ Alfred Korzybski - Wikipedia ] He thought WWI was caused by bad thinking on all sides and that rational thinking by everyone could prevent future wars. If only that were so.

Anyway, let's discuss/debate/argue/yell at each other. It can't hurt. And encourage our co-thinkers on each side to join in, leaving the insults aside.

And ... even enemies can reach agreements on things when both sides benefit. The Geneva Conventions, although not always scrupulously followed, were a step forward for humanity. Even during the Cold War, the US and USSR could agree on the allocation of international radio frequencies, and even agree to ban open-air nuclear testing.

And ... we've got a ways to go before things get really bad. When an AntiFa guy in Portland murdered one of our guys in cold blood, and the others laughed and cheered when they got the happy news, I suspect there were more than a few of our guys who thought about taking revenge. But the murderer met his end at the hands of the police, justice was done, and so far there has been no tit-for-tat -- let's hope it stays that way.

the problem is that Fox and Internet conspiracy nuts, the GOP propaganda machine, have a whole other universe based on total BS. There was no election steal, vaccine hoax, global warming hoax, pedophilia et cetera et cetera- everything the GOP base knows is pure imaginary garbage from people that don't even believe what they're saying, as we just found out. And when I say we I mean people who watch actual news and live in the real world

 

[francoHFW]

.

Oh ... They have all made dumb mistakes ... We all make mistakes.

The point I was trying to make with that would be our National Concern and Federal Obligation.
I can see where the President should use their influence to address what is a Federal Obligation in Securing our borders and Ensuring our Sovereignty.

He didn't have to entertain the idea of Amnesty for Foreign Nationals.
Congress already had provided us Legislation addressing Immigration and had the ability to Reform Immigration requirements.

One was an Obligation ... The other was a Desire ... And they did not need to be combined.
The Desire was addressed ... And the Obligation was neglected.

However ... If I had to say anything good about President Reagan ... He had the support of the People.
When re-elected ... President Reagan carried every State in the Electoral College with the exception of Minnesota.

.​

Then he went crazy with the covert and genocide in Latin America and cut the top tax rate to 28% and did away with the fairness doctrine, So now we have the worst inequality upward mobility homelessness and propaganda ever anywhere by far in the modern world. A total catastrophe with great production values and a great actor as corporate shill.... How is his pal Saddam doing? The GOP base is absolutely clueless...

 

[francoHFW]

You've touched on something that totally exasperates me re so many Patriots. They can be so quick to condemn and/or cancel or declare "RINO" or "traitor" or some such anybody who supports or suggests or promotes something the Patriot disagrees with or says something the Patriot doesn't like.

However short sighted they might be, there are honorable Patriots who don't like Trump for instance. There are some who are pro Roe V Wade as it was originally intended. There are some who over the years have formed friendships with leftists we hold in contempt. (Think of how different they were but how close friends Scalia was with Ginsberg. It affected how each adjudicated not at all.)

When we make our disagreements and contempt for various individuals more important than our common MAGA vision of a strong, secure, prosperous, free America for everybody, we will not be pulling together in harness to reach a common vision and goals.

Until we are willing to allow our own the liberty to disagree, have their own thoughts, opinions, judgments about things, and be who they are, to be different so long as we all share that common vision and goals, we will beat ourselves every time.

But you don't get to have your own facts and reality that has nothing to do with the real world, Super Duper... there is no election steal or any of the conspiracies you idiots believe. just the greedy idiot rich GOP swine stealing from everyone else...

 

[BlackSand]

Then he went crazy with the covert and genocide in Latin America and cut the top tax rate to 28% and did away with the fairness doctrine, So now we have the worst inequality upward mobility homelessness and propaganda ever anywhere by far in the modern world. A total catastrophe with great production values and a great actor as corporate shill.... How is his pal Saddam doing? The GOP base is absolutely clueless...

.

No Shit ... That's generally what you get when you look towards the Federal Government and Establishment ...
To handle crap it is both incapable of ... And not accountable for.

Even worse ... Those still looking towards the Beltway are the poor bastards that have fallen victim to the Establishment ...
Have an abundance of equally stupid propaganda ... And the delusions they could actually get something better.

.​

 

[francoHFW]

Meanwhile outside of the LibTardian FEELZ forrest reality was happening……Tax rates were low, the treasury was hauling in record amounts, fuel was $2.40, interest rates were low, home values were high, food was cheap, wages were rising, more dark people were working than ever before, foreign adversaries were held in-check, the people of Ukraine were safe, there was peace in the middle east, wetbacks were shut-down at our southern border, we were leveraging China on trade, the corrupt media / social media was being exposed, corrupt prosecutors and the like in dangerous blue shitholes were under the spotlight, establishment D.C. filth were shitting their pants…..the list goes on and on.
But but but….. Mac1958 Golfing Gator JoeB131 rightwinger , other TDS-ing loons, weirdos, faggots, chicks with dicks, lowlifes, criminals, bottom feeders, ignorant as fuck housewives and FEELZ people couldn’t stop pissing their pants over the effective as hell orange man and his mean tweets….SOOOOO here we are.

Yes yes, his greatest achievement was not wrecking Obama's recovery, until he did with the worst pandemic response ever and a world leader made people question the vaccine the masks and everything else. the Communist FBI DOJ judges public servants election officials and on and on. and since he started his campaign in 2015 there has been a spike in right wing violence against jews blacks Browns Asians you name it, and they more than double when trump gives a rally in an area. Just lovely the greatest divider in our history along with Murdoch and your other lying every time swine heroes....

Trump's defense secretary Bolton says that Putin was waiting for Trump's second term, after he had wrecked NATO and he could walk into Ukraine. Trump's biggest pals were authoritarian swine in North Korea China Russia. He was a catastrophe in every possible way. Except on the lying scumbag GOP propaganda machine,

 

[Doug1943]

There's the problem right there. We think of elections as wars.

Elections -- the whole mechanism of democratic government -- are a substitute for wars. Before elections, we had (civil) wars.

But once a society agrees on fundamentals, and only disagrees on how to implement those fundamentals, then you can have elections, because the loser doesn't get annihilated.

In situations where there ARE elections, but the loser may still be annihilated, then you have civil war again.

We saw this in the former Yugoslavia, in the US in 1861, and we'll see it in Northern Ireland soon. We see it periodically in Africa. To quote someone who knew about this from experience, "The wires of democracy cannot carry too high a social voltage.")

In America today, if the 'Right' doesn't win repeatedly and overwhelmingly, not just at the national level, but in most of the states ... and if its victories are not used by its leaders to 'take back America' (for which there is little evidence, or even a blueprint for so doing)... then it WILL eventually be annihilated, or at least be among the victims as the whole country comes down.

The ranks of the Right sense this. Thus the growing level of rancor around elections.

If the Left wins, your child will go to Drag Queen Story Hour next year ... and will be instructed in homosexual love-making techniques in ten years.

The military will become increasingly a social justice laboratory, with promotions based not on merit but on identity.

When your children go to college, they'll be given term papers to write exploring how their whie racism is the cause of Black crime. All this is coming.

So, it's hard to be friendly with the people working to make this happen. Our side sees elections as ... well... battles in a war. A war for survival.

 

[Mac1958]

Your party

Your side

Here we go again.

Here's reality: I've never belonged to either political party. I find them both repugnant and counterproductive. I nailed them both in the very OP that you're responding to.

My opinions on the sociological disaster that is Trumpism have nothing to do with politics. They don't make me a left winger. They don't make me a Democrat. They don't even identify where I stand on the actual issues. I'll bet you can't even tell me where I stand on any given issue.

My "side" is against the left and right wings. That's my "side". I don't know why this has to be so complicated. I truly don't. And if you think I'm lying, I cordially invite you to test me on where I stand on any list of issues you'd like. Single Payer, abortion, China, Biden, the border, green energy, whatever you'd like.

Sheesh.

 

[Billiejeens]

So that's what you define as a threat to democracy? Seriously? Highly amusing, thanks for revealing that you basically have nothing when you refer to someone as 'maga', it's just an insult to you, nothing more. You can't even personify what it means outside of trump rallies, flags, and trucks. You clearly need to get out more.

He is simply a troll with the most undeserved self congratulatory ego I've ever seen.

 

[francoHFW]

.

No Shit ... That's generally what you get when you look towards the Federal Government and Establishment ...
To handle crap it is both incapable of ... And not accountable for.

Even worse ... Those still looking towards the Beltway are the poor bastards that have fallen victim to the Establishment ...
Have an abundance of equally stupid propaganda ... And the delusions they could actually get something better.

.​

the Democrats pass cheaper medical care and drugs, day care help paid paid parental leave, cheap collage and training great infrastructure and vacations et cetera et cetera Just like every other developed country already has. God knows what the right are talking about. Pedophilia and election steal and all kinds of imaginary crap...

 

[BlackSand]

the Democrats pass cheaper medical care and drugs, day care help paid paid parental leave, cheap collage and training great infrastructure and vacations et cetera et cetera Just like every other developed country already has. God knows what the right are talking about. Pedophilia and election steal and all kinds of imaginary crap...

.

See ... I told you about the delusions ... You actually think the Establishment isn't both major parties.
Don't worry about me ... Go grab you another spoonful of knowledge out off your TV Tray ... Your poor bastard ...

.​

 

[francoHFW]

Elections -- the whole mechanism of democratic government -- are a substitute for wars. Before elections, we had (civil) wars.

But once a society agrees on fundamentals, and only disagrees on how to implement those fundamentals, then you can have elections, because the loser doesn't get annihilated.

In situations where there ARE elections, but the loser may still be annihilated, then you have civil war again.

We saw this in the former Yugoslavia, in the US in 1861, and we'll see it in Northern Ireland soon. We see it periodically in Africa. To quote someone who knew about this from experience, "The wires of democracy cannot carry too high a social voltage.")

In America today, if the 'Right' doesn't win repeatedly and overwhelmingly, not just at the national level, but in most of the states ... and if its victories are not used by its leaders to 'take back America' (for which there is little evidence, or even a blueprint for so doing)... then it WILL eventually be annihilated, or at least be among the victims as the whole country comes down.

The ranks of the Right sense this. Thus the growing level of rancor around elections.

If the Left wins, your child will go to Drag Queen Story Hour next year ... and will be instructed in homosexual love-making techniques in ten years.

The military will become increasingly a social justice laboratory, with promotions based not on merit but on identity.

When your children go to college, they'll be given term papers to write exploring how their whie racism is the cause of Black crime. All this is coming.

So, it's hard to be friendly with the people working to make this happen. Our side sees elections as ... well... battles in a war. A war for survival.

No one is forcing anyone to take African American studies or... how many drag Queens do you think there are. so far you're actually talking about parents taking their kids to see drag musicals which have nothing to do with sex. real people too and not pedophiles anymore than bigots are LOL. you're propaganda is so hateful and stupid it is total disgrace...

 

[Foxfyre]

Here we go again.

Here's reality: I've never belonged to either political party. I find them both repugnant and counterproductive. I nailed them both in the very OP that you're responding to.

My opinions on the sociological disaster that is Trumpism have nothing to do with politics. They don't make me a left winger. They don't make me a Democrat. They don't even identify where I stand on the actual issues. I'll bet you can't even tell me where I stand on any given issue.

My "side" is against the left and right wings. That's my "side". I don't know why this has to be so complicated. I truly don't. And if you think I'm lying, I cordially invite you to test me on where I stand on any list of issues you'd like. Single Payer, abortion, China, Biden, the border, green energy, whatever you'd like.

Sheesh.

It's always very possible to misjudge anybody and I certainly don't see all your posts, but I have honestly never seen a post by you in which you objected to or condemned or didn't support a pro Democrat statement or policy or piece of legislation. If I missed something pertinent to the contrary I will acknowledge that.

Conversely I have never seen any post by you in which you approved or praised or supported a Republican or Patriot (the two are not interchangeable) in any statement or policy or piece of legislation unless they were trashing a fellow Republican or Patriot. And you are quick to criticize or label people like me in very partisan and/or personal ways.

And that is why I reasonably infer a situation in which you are on the left while I am pretty solidly on the right side of the political spectrum.

And my posts on this thread have focused on concepts, values, laws, liberty vs government control, etc. I am a classical liberal meaning I am opposed to most leftist initatives. Like Black Sand I am a constructionist and constitutionalist and also a Patriot in that I share a common goal and vision of a strong, free, secure, prosperous America with tens of millions of other people whether or not I agree with them on every policy or opinion.

P.S. The Democrat Party pretty much supports everything defeating that goal and vision and the Republican Party has not been entirely supportive or helpful either. But the GOP platform is so much closer to that Patriot goal and vision than are the Democrats, most Patriots do register as Republican though many register Libertarian or Independent.

 

[Hutch Starskey]

Political overcompensation is the new Great American Pastime.

A few years ago, some of us were warning the Left: You're going too far with Political Correctness and Identity Politics. You're going too far screaming RACIST at every last fucking thing that moves. You're going too far lowering standards and expectations for people based solely on their skin color. You're going too far in normalizing sexual disorders such as gender dysphoria. You're going too far in putting your agenda in schools. You're going too far in disallowing conservative voices on college campuses. And most of all, you're going too far in attacking, intimidating and penalizing people in everyday life for saying things you don't like.

There's going to be pushback, we said. You're overcompensating, we said. This stuff is not right, we said. I only said that a few thousand times here, to be met with attacks from the Left. (By the way, a zillion examples of that available upon request via the search function)

So now we see the pushback, with this Neanderthal, middle school bully-approach to the culture from the Right. This is the pushback we warned about -- although, admittedly, even worse than I imagined. And this sucker has legs, just like your weaponized PC and Identity Politics did. They're making laws and attacking and intimidating. Gee, what a coincidence. What Deja Vu we're seeing, huh? Go figure!

And most amazing of all, this pushback included the election of a petulant child, an obvious con man, an orange buffoon, in 2016, and all the fucking unbelievable madness that has followed.

No doubt there will be pushback to this, too. Back and forth. Back and forth. More and more damage.

Ideological politics poisons everything it touches. Now it's putting this country at risk of falling apart. Great job, gang. You're BOTH so much like those you hate, and you just won't stop.

Young Republicans Are Begging Party Elders To Stop Saying 'Woke'

The next generation of conservatives support their party's culture wars. But they hate the way they describe them

www.rollingstone.com

Pushing for greater equity and inclusion for our citizenry is no vice.
I’m with you more often than not but this logic sounds way to similar to the idea that Putin only invaded because NATO forced him to.
Rather. To me, Putin’s invasion shows exactly why The former Soviet bloc countries rightfully sought the security that NATO membership brings.
Likewise, the pushback and utter vitriol pushed onto lgbtq folks by the right show clearly why these issues need to be aired and rights protected.
Your position is not new, Mac. There were those during the civil rights era who felt the same. Too much too fast.
I prefer to look to the light and not fear the dark forces. That’s what they want after all. They want you to fear the evil they are capable of.

 

[francoHFW]

.

See ... I told you about the delusions ... You actually think the Establishment isn't both major parties.
Don't worry about me ... Go grab you another spoonful of knowledge out off your TV Tray ... Your poor bastard ...

.​

your apathy is just another GOP brainwash I fear. Who do you actually vote for? of course we could make progress and help the middle class and the working class again after 42 years of GOP giveaway to the rich. Do you think a living wage cheap college health care taxing rich their fair share great infrastructure and vacations make no difference? we are all socialists now And the only thing left to do is decide to do that for a change. Socialism is simply fair capitalism and always democratic for you brainwashed GOP base idiots whoops oops..... Every Socialist in the world and every socialist party in every democracy has always been that. don't believe what the Nazis and communists say LOL.

 

[JoeB131]

Multi-rep districts would solve the gerrymandering problem better than "Bipartisan" (just two?) commissions.

The biggest dysfunction, in my view, is that we're trying to use government to shape society - government has become the coach rather than the referee. Instead of government that keeps the peace and protects our freedom to live as we want, we have government that tries to push and prod people toward someone's vision of the "good life". Naturally, everyone wants to control that process, and/or is terrified that someone they don't trust will control it.

Libertarian Child thinks government is this alien force, and not just a bunch of politicians giving us exactly what we want.

 

[JoeB131]

Yeah, I think all we can do is optimize the guardrails, since we know that politicians, politicos and pundits will remain on the edges of those guardrails. At least minimize their worst impulses.

Unfortunately, the country is more concerned with who the Kardashian girls are banging than this critical topic.

Has it occurred to you that the reason why the country can worry about the Karashians is because government is reasonable good at taking care of more pressing concerns.

The problem is, as much as you whine about the government ignoring your beloved "Middle" is that the middle doesn't care as long as the basic needs are being taken care of. They only care when government's actions or lack of actions affects them.

Only 66% of us vote. And that is in an election where Trump actually failed to meet those basic needs and we were all hiding from scary viruses and minorities.

Only 37% of us can name our member of Congress.

 

[gipper]

Right.

That is the swamp, that Trump was allegedly trying to drain.

Yet he did nothing of the sort. He put the swamp in charge. Not smart.

 

[JoeB131]

People here just need to realize that whenever Mac attempts his basic ruse, the "middle" is always crafted to be consistent with the prevailing DNC orthodoxy.

In 2016, that middle was represented by Hillary, so he went after "regressives" to the left of her. Now that the DNC has shifted so far left, the imaginary middle he is trying to create has shifted left as well.

Now, and as always, he offers just two choices -- display complete fealty to the DNC talking points or he will call you names. His current pet name is now "Trumpster"

Uh, not really.

Mac has been on this "Democrats are too far to the left" when Hillary was the candidate, and has even tried to portray her loss as "The left going too far". (When in fact, the reality was that too many people voted third party as a protest vote thinking everyone else wouldn't be stupid enough to let Trump win.)

The reality is, the best success Democrats had is when they ran Obama who was unashamedly leftist. You do better when you stand for something. The same can be said of Republicans, their best performance in recent years has been when they ran someone (Bush Jr.) who was unapologetically right wing.

Do the Partisans dominate both parties too much? Yes. But as Woody Allen once said, "90% of success is showing up." The partisans have say because they are the ones who contribute, who volunteer for campaigns, who walk a precinct getting the vote out, who drive the nice old lady next door to the polling place.