The truth about Truman’s bombing Japan

[K9Buck]

In a world war, there is no such thing as a non-combatant.

This is the standard by which you wish to live? I hope you have no small children.

Actually that was the standard of warfare Lincoln used and many others came to copy in WW II; it's not a 'standard' it is what 'total war' means;Germany adopted it in WW I with the bombings of London and again in WW II, so did the Japanese in their invasions throughout the early part of the Century before they allied with Germany, and it is the kind of warfare they would have used on us. I have zero sympathy for the Japanese or the Germans or the Soviets; they made their beds and reaped what they sowed.

It's just bizarre that all the sniveling and whining and twisted 'morality' going on here is directed at the U.S. for some reason; I guess that is what happens when ideological usefulness trumps historical realities these days.

Yeah what’s the big deal anyway? Mass murdering the defenseless is just good tactics in war...but only if done to my enemy.

Killing one's enemy before they can kill them typically separates the winners from the losers.

 

[gipper]

Rather than quote and respond to every argument, I'll just present some facts in the form of bullets:

* It is well documented that General Eisenhower opposed using nukes on Japan, partly because he was aware of the intelligence that indicated that Japan was already soundly beaten and that the Japanese were looking for a way to surrender with a minimum loss of face. In his memoir, Eisenhower stated that he told Secretary of War Stimson that using the atomic bomb on Japan was “completely unnecessary” (Mandate for Change, pp. 312-313).

Eisenhower’s son later recalled that before the bomb was dropped on Hiroshima, his father told him, “I’d sure hate to see it used, because Japan’s licked anyway, and they know it” (Interview with Ed Edwin, February 28, 1967, Eisenhower Library; Summary: Section C).

Stephen Ambrose states that Eisenhower advised Truman against dropping the A-bomb on Japan (Eisenhower, Volume 1: Soldier General of the Army, pp. 425-426).

* Somewhat surprisingly, General MacArthur likewise opposed using nukes on Japan. Numerous sources, including MacArthur’s pilot, confirm this. When Norman Cousins interviewed MacArthur, he was surprised to learn that MacArthur was never consulted about using the atomic bomb on Japan and that MacArthur “saw no military justification for the dropping of the bomb.” Added Cousins,

The war might have ended weeks earlier, he [MacArthur] said, if the United States had agreed, as it later did anyway, to the retention of the institution of the emperor. (The Pathology of Power, p. 71)​

* General Carter Clarke, who was in charge of preparing MAGIC summaries in 1945 and who served on General Marshall’s staff, stated,

We brought them [the Japanese] down to an abject surrender through the accelerated sinking of their merchant marine and hunger alone, and then we didn’t need to do it [use the atomic bomb], and we knew we didn’t need to do it, and they knew that we knew that we didn’t need to do it, we used them as an experiment for two atomic bombs. (Clarke interview with Dr. Forrest Pogue, July 6, 1959, p. 29, Pogue Papers, GCMRL; Alperovitz, The Decision to Use the Atomic Bomb, p. 359; see also Hiroshima: Quotes)​

* General George C. Kinney, commander of the Army Air Forces in the Southwest Pacific, when asked in a 1969 interview if the decision to use the atomic bomb was militarily and politically wise, he said,

No! I think we had the Japanese licked anyhow. I think they would have quit probably within a week or so of when they did quit. (Alperovitz, The Decision to Use the Atomic Bomb, p. 336)​

* Not everyone turned a blind eye to the immorality of our fire-bombing of Japanese cities. For example, General Bonner Fellers, who served on MacArthur’s staff, stated in a June 1945 memorandum that LeMay’s fire-bombing raids on Japanese cities were “one of the most ruthless and barbaric killings of non-combatants in all history” (John Dower, War Without Mercy, p. 41).

* The fact that by early 1945 Japan was virtually defenseless against air attacks is shown by the fact that by June 1945 we were losing only 0.003 of our bombers in air raids on Japan—in other words, only 3 out of every 1,000 bombers was being shot down (Paul Ham, Hiroshima Nagasaki: The Real Story of the Atomic Bombings and Their Aftermath, p. 176).

* To give you some idea of Japan’s prostrate state by July 1945, consider these facts (all of these facts are discussed in Ham’s book, among other sources):

-- In July 1945 the Japanese government was forced to impose yet another cut in staple food rations: a cut of 10%, in fact. As a result, the food ration per person fell below 1700 calories, well below the minimum needed to maintain basic health. The United States Strategic Bombing Survey, published in 1946, noted,

Undernourishment produced a major increase in the incidence of beriberi and tuberculosis. It also had an important effect on the efficiency and morale of the people, and contributed to absenteeism among workers. (p. 21)​

-- Cases of night blindness due to malnutrition became common.

-- Japan was even running so low on rice that the government announced a program to process acorns as a substitute for rice.

-- The food shortage became so bad that the government actually published articles and booklets on how to eat food no one would usually eat, such as “Food Substitution: How to Eat Things People Normally Wouldn’t Eat.” One government booklet advised citizens to eat locusts and insect pupas.

-- Japan was running so low on fuel that the government began exploring pine-root oil as a fuel substitute for aircraft.

-- Japan was running so low on metal that its military aircraft were increasingly made with larger amounts of wood. In fact, in July the government announced it had established a department to make planes out of wood.

-- Starting in early 1944 the lack of metals became so severe, due to the U.S. naval blockade, that the Japanese government was forced to start confiscating and melting bridge railings, metal fences, metal statues (even those in Buddhist temples), gate posts, notice boards, and even household items.

-- Although Japan built underground aircraft factories, raw materials were in such short supply that only 10—yes, just 10—aircraft were manufactured in those factories.

-- In March 1945, imports of crude oil, rubber, coal, and iron ore ceased.

-- By June 1945, Japan had a grand total of 9,000 planes of any kind. Most of these were trainers or old planes designed for kamikaze raids, and less than half of them were properly equipped for such raids. The majority of those planes could not have been flown anyway due to the lack of fuel.

-- By early 1945, the vast majority of Japan’s merchant vessels had been destroyed.

-- By June 1945, the Japanese naval surface fleet had essentially ceased to exist. The United States Strategic Bombing Survey reported,

After the liberation of the Philippines and the capture of Okinawa, oil imports into Japan were completely cut off; fuel oil stocks had been exhausted, and the few remaining Japanese warships, being without fuel, were decommissioned or were covered with camouflage and used only as antiaircraft platforms. Except for its shore-based Kamikaze airforce and surface and undersea craft adapted for anti-invasion suicide attack, the Japanese Navy had ceased to exist. (p. 11)​

-- By June 1945, every major Japanese port was mined by the U.S. Navy. Indeed, U.S. Navy mines closed the Shimonoseki Straights, which cut off naval activity between the Japanese main islands of Honshu and Kyushu. U.S. Navy mines also shut down 18 of Japan’s 21 naval repair yards on the Inland Sea. Hiroshima’s port was shut down. Nagasaki’s port, formerly a major port, became nearly worthless.

-- By early 1945, few Japanese stores remained open because there were so few commercial goods being produced or imported.

-- As mentioned earlier, Japan was virtually defenseless against air attacks. By June 1945, the odds of a U.S. bomber being shot down were 3 out of 1,000.

By June 1945, Japan posed no threat to us. The Japanese were purely on the defensive and their situation was only getting worse by the day because of our virtually total naval embargo and total control of the air. Thus, it should come as no surprise that the United States Strategic Bombing Survey concluded that “in all probability” Japan would have surrendered before 1 November 1945 even if we had not dropped nukes and even if the Soviets had not invaded:

Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts, and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey's opinion that certainly prior to 31 December 1945, and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated. (p. 26)​

There was no need to kill hundreds of thousands of women and children by nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki. If Truman had listed to the majority of the senior officials who were advising him, instead of listening to his Japanophobic Secretary of State James Byrnes, the Pacific War could have been ended weeks earlier and hundreds of thousands of lives would have been spared. Even Churchill tried to persuade Truman to clarify the emperor's status in unconditional surrender, but he wouldn't listen because Byrnes screamed against it, and this refusal greatly aided the cause of Japan's hardliners and hamstrung the moderates.

is that why they surrendered prior to Aug 1945?

They tried to surrender several times before Truman committed his war crime,but apparently those times don’t count to stupid statists because they wanted certain conditions. Like please don’t hang the Emperor, which Truman agreed to AFTER he emulated Hitler.

 

[gipper]

In a world war, there is no such thing as a non-combatant.

This is the standard by which you wish to live? I hope you have no small children.

Actually that was the standard of warfare Lincoln used and many others came to copy in WW II; it's not a 'standard' it is what 'total war' means;Germany adopted it in WW I with the bombings of London and again in WW II, so did the Japanese in their invasions throughout the early part of the Century before they allied with Germany, and it is the kind of warfare they would have used on us. I have zero sympathy for the Japanese or the Germans or the Soviets; they made their beds and reaped what they sowed.

It's just bizarre that all the sniveling and whining and twisted 'morality' going on here is directed at the U.S. for some reason; I guess that is what happens when ideological usefulness trumps historical realities these days.

Yeah what’s the big deal anyway? Mass murdering the defenseless is just good tactics in war...but only if done to my enemy.

Killing one's enemy before they can kill them typically separates the winners from the losers.

There it is again. Kill kill kill...lots of women and children. It’s good for business.

 

[K9Buck]

Rather than quote and respond to every argument, I'll just present some facts in the form of bullets:

* It is well documented that General Eisenhower opposed using nukes on Japan, partly because he was aware of the intelligence that indicated that Japan was already soundly beaten and that the Japanese were looking for a way to surrender with a minimum loss of face. In his memoir, Eisenhower stated that he told Secretary of War Stimson that using the atomic bomb on Japan was “completely unnecessary” (Mandate for Change, pp. 312-313).

Eisenhower’s son later recalled that before the bomb was dropped on Hiroshima, his father told him, “I’d sure hate to see it used, because Japan’s licked anyway, and they know it” (Interview with Ed Edwin, February 28, 1967, Eisenhower Library; Summary: Section C).

Stephen Ambrose states that Eisenhower advised Truman against dropping the A-bomb on Japan (Eisenhower, Volume 1: Soldier General of the Army, pp. 425-426).

* Somewhat surprisingly, General MacArthur likewise opposed using nukes on Japan. Numerous sources, including MacArthur’s pilot, confirm this. When Norman Cousins interviewed MacArthur, he was surprised to learn that MacArthur was never consulted about using the atomic bomb on Japan and that MacArthur “saw no military justification for the dropping of the bomb.” Added Cousins,

The war might have ended weeks earlier, he [MacArthur] said, if the United States had agreed, as it later did anyway, to the retention of the institution of the emperor. (The Pathology of Power, p. 71)​

* General Carter Clarke, who was in charge of preparing MAGIC summaries in 1945 and who served on General Marshall’s staff, stated,

We brought them [the Japanese] down to an abject surrender through the accelerated sinking of their merchant marine and hunger alone, and then we didn’t need to do it [use the atomic bomb], and we knew we didn’t need to do it, and they knew that we knew that we didn’t need to do it, we used them as an experiment for two atomic bombs. (Clarke interview with Dr. Forrest Pogue, July 6, 1959, p. 29, Pogue Papers, GCMRL; Alperovitz, The Decision to Use the Atomic Bomb, p. 359; see also Hiroshima: Quotes)​

* General George C. Kinney, commander of the Army Air Forces in the Southwest Pacific, when asked in a 1969 interview if the decision to use the atomic bomb was militarily and politically wise, he said,

No! I think we had the Japanese licked anyhow. I think they would have quit probably within a week or so of when they did quit. (Alperovitz, The Decision to Use the Atomic Bomb, p. 336)​

* Not everyone turned a blind eye to the immorality of our fire-bombing of Japanese cities. For example, General Bonner Fellers, who served on MacArthur’s staff, stated in a June 1945 memorandum that LeMay’s fire-bombing raids on Japanese cities were “one of the most ruthless and barbaric killings of non-combatants in all history” (John Dower, War Without Mercy, p. 41).

* The fact that by early 1945 Japan was virtually defenseless against air attacks is shown by the fact that by June 1945 we were losing only 0.003 of our bombers in air raids on Japan—in other words, only 3 out of every 1,000 bombers was being shot down (Paul Ham, Hiroshima Nagasaki: The Real Story of the Atomic Bombings and Their Aftermath, p. 176).

* To give you some idea of Japan’s prostrate state by July 1945, consider these facts (all of these facts are discussed in Ham’s book, among other sources):

-- In July 1945 the Japanese government was forced to impose yet another cut in staple food rations: a cut of 10%, in fact. As a result, the food ration per person fell below 1700 calories, well below the minimum needed to maintain basic health. The United States Strategic Bombing Survey, published in 1946, noted,

Undernourishment produced a major increase in the incidence of beriberi and tuberculosis. It also had an important effect on the efficiency and morale of the people, and contributed to absenteeism among workers. (p. 21)​

-- Cases of night blindness due to malnutrition became common.

-- Japan was even running so low on rice that the government announced a program to process acorns as a substitute for rice.

-- The food shortage became so bad that the government actually published articles and booklets on how to eat food no one would usually eat, such as “Food Substitution: How to Eat Things People Normally Wouldn’t Eat.” One government booklet advised citizens to eat locusts and insect pupas.

-- Japan was running so low on fuel that the government began exploring pine-root oil as a fuel substitute for aircraft.

-- Japan was running so low on metal that its military aircraft were increasingly made with larger amounts of wood. In fact, in July the government announced it had established a department to make planes out of wood.

-- Starting in early 1944 the lack of metals became so severe, due to the U.S. naval blockade, that the Japanese government was forced to start confiscating and melting bridge railings, metal fences, metal statues (even those in Buddhist temples), gate posts, notice boards, and even household items.

-- Although Japan built underground aircraft factories, raw materials were in such short supply that only 10—yes, just 10—aircraft were manufactured in those factories.

-- In March 1945, imports of crude oil, rubber, coal, and iron ore ceased.

-- By June 1945, Japan had a grand total of 9,000 planes of any kind. Most of these were trainers or old planes designed for kamikaze raids, and less than half of them were properly equipped for such raids. The majority of those planes could not have been flown anyway due to the lack of fuel.

-- By early 1945, the vast majority of Japan’s merchant vessels had been destroyed.

-- By June 1945, the Japanese naval surface fleet had essentially ceased to exist. The United States Strategic Bombing Survey reported,

After the liberation of the Philippines and the capture of Okinawa, oil imports into Japan were completely cut off; fuel oil stocks had been exhausted, and the few remaining Japanese warships, being without fuel, were decommissioned or were covered with camouflage and used only as antiaircraft platforms. Except for its shore-based Kamikaze airforce and surface and undersea craft adapted for anti-invasion suicide attack, the Japanese Navy had ceased to exist. (p. 11)​

-- By June 1945, every major Japanese port was mined by the U.S. Navy. Indeed, U.S. Navy mines closed the Shimonoseki Straights, which cut off naval activity between the Japanese main islands of Honshu and Kyushu. U.S. Navy mines also shut down 18 of Japan’s 21 naval repair yards on the Inland Sea. Hiroshima’s port was shut down. Nagasaki’s port, formerly a major port, became nearly worthless.

-- By early 1945, few Japanese stores remained open because there were so few commercial goods being produced or imported.

-- As mentioned earlier, Japan was virtually defenseless against air attacks. By June 1945, the odds of a U.S. bomber being shot down were 3 out of 1,000.

By June 1945, Japan posed no threat to us. The Japanese were purely on the defensive and their situation was only getting worse by the day because of our virtually total naval embargo and total control of the air. Thus, it should come as no surprise that the United States Strategic Bombing Survey concluded that “in all probability” Japan would have surrendered before 1 November 1945 even if we had not dropped nukes and even if the Soviets had not invaded:

Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts, and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey's opinion that certainly prior to 31 December 1945, and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated. (p. 26)​

There was no need to kill hundreds of thousands of women and children by nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki. If Truman had listed to the majority of the senior officials who were advising him, instead of listening to his Japanophobic Secretary of State James Byrnes, the Pacific War could have been ended weeks earlier and hundreds of thousands of lives would have been spared. Even Churchill tried to persuade Truman to clarify the emperor's status in unconditional surrender, but he wouldn't listen because Byrnes screamed against it, and this refusal greatly aided the cause of Japan's hardliners and hamstrung the moderates.

Great post! However, had the U.S. not used the bombs and the war continued past August, 1945, it's possible even more Japanese would have died from starvation and disease alone.

I also have to wonder if Truman wanted to put on a display for Stalin to demonstrate that we really had acquired a nuclear weapons capability.

 

[harmonica]

Rather than quote and respond to every argument, I'll just present some facts in the form of bullets:

* It is well documented that General Eisenhower opposed using nukes on Japan, partly because he was aware of the intelligence that indicated that Japan was already soundly beaten and that the Japanese were looking for a way to surrender with a minimum loss of face. In his memoir, Eisenhower stated that he told Secretary of War Stimson that using the atomic bomb on Japan was “completely unnecessary” (Mandate for Change, pp. 312-313).

Eisenhower’s son later recalled that before the bomb was dropped on Hiroshima, his father told him, “I’d sure hate to see it used, because Japan’s licked anyway, and they know it” (Interview with Ed Edwin, February 28, 1967, Eisenhower Library; Summary: Section C).

Stephen Ambrose states that Eisenhower advised Truman against dropping the A-bomb on Japan (Eisenhower, Volume 1: Soldier General of the Army, pp. 425-426).

* Somewhat surprisingly, General MacArthur likewise opposed using nukes on Japan. Numerous sources, including MacArthur’s pilot, confirm this. When Norman Cousins interviewed MacArthur, he was surprised to learn that MacArthur was never consulted about using the atomic bomb on Japan and that MacArthur “saw no military justification for the dropping of the bomb.” Added Cousins,

The war might have ended weeks earlier, he [MacArthur] said, if the United States had agreed, as it later did anyway, to the retention of the institution of the emperor. (The Pathology of Power, p. 71)​

* General Carter Clarke, who was in charge of preparing MAGIC summaries in 1945 and who served on General Marshall’s staff, stated,

We brought them [the Japanese] down to an abject surrender through the accelerated sinking of their merchant marine and hunger alone, and then we didn’t need to do it [use the atomic bomb], and we knew we didn’t need to do it, and they knew that we knew that we didn’t need to do it, we used them as an experiment for two atomic bombs. (Clarke interview with Dr. Forrest Pogue, July 6, 1959, p. 29, Pogue Papers, GCMRL; Alperovitz, The Decision to Use the Atomic Bomb, p. 359; see also Hiroshima: Quotes)​

* General George C. Kinney, commander of the Army Air Forces in the Southwest Pacific, when asked in a 1969 interview if the decision to use the atomic bomb was militarily and politically wise, he said,

No! I think we had the Japanese licked anyhow. I think they would have quit probably within a week or so of when they did quit. (Alperovitz, The Decision to Use the Atomic Bomb, p. 336)​

* Not everyone turned a blind eye to the immorality of our fire-bombing of Japanese cities. For example, General Bonner Fellers, who served on MacArthur’s staff, stated in a June 1945 memorandum that LeMay’s fire-bombing raids on Japanese cities were “one of the most ruthless and barbaric killings of non-combatants in all history” (John Dower, War Without Mercy, p. 41).

* The fact that by early 1945 Japan was virtually defenseless against air attacks is shown by the fact that by June 1945 we were losing only 0.003 of our bombers in air raids on Japan—in other words, only 3 out of every 1,000 bombers was being shot down (Paul Ham, Hiroshima Nagasaki: The Real Story of the Atomic Bombings and Their Aftermath, p. 176).

* To give you some idea of Japan’s prostrate state by July 1945, consider these facts (all of these facts are discussed in Ham’s book, among other sources):

-- In July 1945 the Japanese government was forced to impose yet another cut in staple food rations: a cut of 10%, in fact. As a result, the food ration per person fell below 1700 calories, well below the minimum needed to maintain basic health. The United States Strategic Bombing Survey, published in 1946, noted,

Undernourishment produced a major increase in the incidence of beriberi and tuberculosis. It also had an important effect on the efficiency and morale of the people, and contributed to absenteeism among workers. (p. 21)​

-- Cases of night blindness due to malnutrition became common.

-- Japan was even running so low on rice that the government announced a program to process acorns as a substitute for rice.

-- The food shortage became so bad that the government actually published articles and booklets on how to eat food no one would usually eat, such as “Food Substitution: How to Eat Things People Normally Wouldn’t Eat.” One government booklet advised citizens to eat locusts and insect pupas.

-- Japan was running so low on fuel that the government began exploring pine-root oil as a fuel substitute for aircraft.

-- Japan was running so low on metal that its military aircraft were increasingly made with larger amounts of wood. In fact, in July the government announced it had established a department to make planes out of wood.

-- Starting in early 1944 the lack of metals became so severe, due to the U.S. naval blockade, that the Japanese government was forced to start confiscating and melting bridge railings, metal fences, metal statues (even those in Buddhist temples), gate posts, notice boards, and even household items.

-- Although Japan built underground aircraft factories, raw materials were in such short supply that only 10—yes, just 10—aircraft were manufactured in those factories.

-- In March 1945, imports of crude oil, rubber, coal, and iron ore ceased.

-- By June 1945, Japan had a grand total of 9,000 planes of any kind. Most of these were trainers or old planes designed for kamikaze raids, and less than half of them were properly equipped for such raids. The majority of those planes could not have been flown anyway due to the lack of fuel.

-- By early 1945, the vast majority of Japan’s merchant vessels had been destroyed.

-- By June 1945, the Japanese naval surface fleet had essentially ceased to exist. The United States Strategic Bombing Survey reported,

After the liberation of the Philippines and the capture of Okinawa, oil imports into Japan were completely cut off; fuel oil stocks had been exhausted, and the few remaining Japanese warships, being without fuel, were decommissioned or were covered with camouflage and used only as antiaircraft platforms. Except for its shore-based Kamikaze airforce and surface and undersea craft adapted for anti-invasion suicide attack, the Japanese Navy had ceased to exist. (p. 11)​

-- By June 1945, every major Japanese port was mined by the U.S. Navy. Indeed, U.S. Navy mines closed the Shimonoseki Straights, which cut off naval activity between the Japanese main islands of Honshu and Kyushu. U.S. Navy mines also shut down 18 of Japan’s 21 naval repair yards on the Inland Sea. Hiroshima’s port was shut down. Nagasaki’s port, formerly a major port, became nearly worthless.

-- By early 1945, few Japanese stores remained open because there were so few commercial goods being produced or imported.

-- As mentioned earlier, Japan was virtually defenseless against air attacks. By June 1945, the odds of a U.S. bomber being shot down were 3 out of 1,000.

By June 1945, Japan posed no threat to us. The Japanese were purely on the defensive and their situation was only getting worse by the day because of our virtually total naval embargo and total control of the air. Thus, it should come as no surprise that the United States Strategic Bombing Survey concluded that “in all probability” Japan would have surrendered before 1 November 1945 even if we had not dropped nukes and even if the Soviets had not invaded:

Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts, and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey's opinion that certainly prior to 31 December 1945, and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated. (p. 26)​

There was no need to kill hundreds of thousands of women and children by nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki. If Truman had listed to the majority of the senior officials who were advising him, instead of listening to his Japanophobic Secretary of State James Byrnes, the Pacific War could have been ended weeks earlier and hundreds of thousands of lives would have been spared. Even Churchill tried to persuade Truman to clarify the emperor's status in unconditional surrender, but he wouldn't listen because Byrnes screamed against it, and this refusal greatly aided the cause of Japan's hardliners and hamstrung the moderates.

is that why they surrendered prior to Aug 1945?

They tried to surrender several times before Truman committed his war crime,but apparently those times don’t count to stupid statists because they wanted certain conditions. Like please don’t hang the Emperor, which Truman agreed to AFTER he emulated Hitler.

please link reputable sites on how they tried to surrender
you are full of shit

 

[K9Buck]

In a world war, there is no such thing as a non-combatant.

This is the standard by which you wish to live? I hope you have no small children.

Actually that was the standard of warfare Lincoln used and many others came to copy in WW II; it's not a 'standard' it is what 'total war' means;Germany adopted it in WW I with the bombings of London and again in WW II, so did the Japanese in their invasions throughout the early part of the Century before they allied with Germany, and it is the kind of warfare they would have used on us. I have zero sympathy for the Japanese or the Germans or the Soviets; they made their beds and reaped what they sowed.

It's just bizarre that all the sniveling and whining and twisted 'morality' going on here is directed at the U.S. for some reason; I guess that is what happens when ideological usefulness trumps historical realities these days.

Yeah what’s the big deal anyway? Mass murdering the defenseless is just good tactics in war...but only if done to my enemy.

Killing one's enemy before they can kill them typically separates the winners from the losers.

There it is again. Kill kill kill...lots of women and children. It’s good for business.

You seem a little emotional.

 

[harmonica]

Rather than quote and respond to every argument, I'll just present some facts in the form of bullets:

* It is well documented that General Eisenhower opposed using nukes on Japan, partly because he was aware of the intelligence that indicated that Japan was already soundly beaten and that the Japanese were looking for a way to surrender with a minimum loss of face. In his memoir, Eisenhower stated that he told Secretary of War Stimson that using the atomic bomb on Japan was “completely unnecessary” (Mandate for Change, pp. 312-313).

Eisenhower’s son later recalled that before the bomb was dropped on Hiroshima, his father told him, “I’d sure hate to see it used, because Japan’s licked anyway, and they know it” (Interview with Ed Edwin, February 28, 1967, Eisenhower Library; Summary: Section C).

Stephen Ambrose states that Eisenhower advised Truman against dropping the A-bomb on Japan (Eisenhower, Volume 1: Soldier General of the Army, pp. 425-426).

* Somewhat surprisingly, General MacArthur likewise opposed using nukes on Japan. Numerous sources, including MacArthur’s pilot, confirm this. When Norman Cousins interviewed MacArthur, he was surprised to learn that MacArthur was never consulted about using the atomic bomb on Japan and that MacArthur “saw no military justification for the dropping of the bomb.” Added Cousins,

The war might have ended weeks earlier, he [MacArthur] said, if the United States had agreed, as it later did anyway, to the retention of the institution of the emperor. (The Pathology of Power, p. 71)​

* General Carter Clarke, who was in charge of preparing MAGIC summaries in 1945 and who served on General Marshall’s staff, stated,

We brought them [the Japanese] down to an abject surrender through the accelerated sinking of their merchant marine and hunger alone, and then we didn’t need to do it [use the atomic bomb], and we knew we didn’t need to do it, and they knew that we knew that we didn’t need to do it, we used them as an experiment for two atomic bombs. (Clarke interview with Dr. Forrest Pogue, July 6, 1959, p. 29, Pogue Papers, GCMRL; Alperovitz, The Decision to Use the Atomic Bomb, p. 359; see also Hiroshima: Quotes)​

* General George C. Kinney, commander of the Army Air Forces in the Southwest Pacific, when asked in a 1969 interview if the decision to use the atomic bomb was militarily and politically wise, he said,

No! I think we had the Japanese licked anyhow. I think they would have quit probably within a week or so of when they did quit. (Alperovitz, The Decision to Use the Atomic Bomb, p. 336)​

* Not everyone turned a blind eye to the immorality of our fire-bombing of Japanese cities. For example, General Bonner Fellers, who served on MacArthur’s staff, stated in a June 1945 memorandum that LeMay’s fire-bombing raids on Japanese cities were “one of the most ruthless and barbaric killings of non-combatants in all history” (John Dower, War Without Mercy, p. 41).

* The fact that by early 1945 Japan was virtually defenseless against air attacks is shown by the fact that by June 1945 we were losing only 0.003 of our bombers in air raids on Japan—in other words, only 3 out of every 1,000 bombers was being shot down (Paul Ham, Hiroshima Nagasaki: The Real Story of the Atomic Bombings and Their Aftermath, p. 176).

* To give you some idea of Japan’s prostrate state by July 1945, consider these facts (all of these facts are discussed in Ham’s book, among other sources):

-- In July 1945 the Japanese government was forced to impose yet another cut in staple food rations: a cut of 10%, in fact. As a result, the food ration per person fell below 1700 calories, well below the minimum needed to maintain basic health. The United States Strategic Bombing Survey, published in 1946, noted,

Undernourishment produced a major increase in the incidence of beriberi and tuberculosis. It also had an important effect on the efficiency and morale of the people, and contributed to absenteeism among workers. (p. 21)​

-- Cases of night blindness due to malnutrition became common.

-- Japan was even running so low on rice that the government announced a program to process acorns as a substitute for rice.

-- The food shortage became so bad that the government actually published articles and booklets on how to eat food no one would usually eat, such as “Food Substitution: How to Eat Things People Normally Wouldn’t Eat.” One government booklet advised citizens to eat locusts and insect pupas.

-- Japan was running so low on fuel that the government began exploring pine-root oil as a fuel substitute for aircraft.

-- Japan was running so low on metal that its military aircraft were increasingly made with larger amounts of wood. In fact, in July the government announced it had established a department to make planes out of wood.

-- Starting in early 1944 the lack of metals became so severe, due to the U.S. naval blockade, that the Japanese government was forced to start confiscating and melting bridge railings, metal fences, metal statues (even those in Buddhist temples), gate posts, notice boards, and even household items.

-- Although Japan built underground aircraft factories, raw materials were in such short supply that only 10—yes, just 10—aircraft were manufactured in those factories.

-- In March 1945, imports of crude oil, rubber, coal, and iron ore ceased.

-- By June 1945, Japan had a grand total of 9,000 planes of any kind. Most of these were trainers or old planes designed for kamikaze raids, and less than half of them were properly equipped for such raids. The majority of those planes could not have been flown anyway due to the lack of fuel.

-- By early 1945, the vast majority of Japan’s merchant vessels had been destroyed.

-- By June 1945, the Japanese naval surface fleet had essentially ceased to exist. The United States Strategic Bombing Survey reported,

After the liberation of the Philippines and the capture of Okinawa, oil imports into Japan were completely cut off; fuel oil stocks had been exhausted, and the few remaining Japanese warships, being without fuel, were decommissioned or were covered with camouflage and used only as antiaircraft platforms. Except for its shore-based Kamikaze airforce and surface and undersea craft adapted for anti-invasion suicide attack, the Japanese Navy had ceased to exist. (p. 11)​

-- By June 1945, every major Japanese port was mined by the U.S. Navy. Indeed, U.S. Navy mines closed the Shimonoseki Straights, which cut off naval activity between the Japanese main islands of Honshu and Kyushu. U.S. Navy mines also shut down 18 of Japan’s 21 naval repair yards on the Inland Sea. Hiroshima’s port was shut down. Nagasaki’s port, formerly a major port, became nearly worthless.

-- By early 1945, few Japanese stores remained open because there were so few commercial goods being produced or imported.

-- As mentioned earlier, Japan was virtually defenseless against air attacks. By June 1945, the odds of a U.S. bomber being shot down were 3 out of 1,000.

By June 1945, Japan posed no threat to us. The Japanese were purely on the defensive and their situation was only getting worse by the day because of our virtually total naval embargo and total control of the air. Thus, it should come as no surprise that the United States Strategic Bombing Survey concluded that “in all probability” Japan would have surrendered before 1 November 1945 even if we had not dropped nukes and even if the Soviets had not invaded:

Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts, and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey's opinion that certainly prior to 31 December 1945, and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated. (p. 26)​

There was no need to kill hundreds of thousands of women and children by nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki. If Truman had listed to the majority of the senior officials who were advising him, instead of listening to his Japanophobic Secretary of State James Byrnes, the Pacific War could have been ended weeks earlier and hundreds of thousands of lives would have been spared. Even Churchill tried to persuade Truman to clarify the emperor's status in unconditional surrender, but he wouldn't listen because Byrnes screamed against it, and this refusal greatly aided the cause of Japan's hardliners and hamstrung the moderates.

Great post! However, had the U.S. not used the bombs and the war continued past August, 1945, it's possible even more Japanese would have died from starvation and disease alone.

I also have to wonder if Truman wanted to put on a display for Stalin to demonstrate that we really had acquired a nuclear weapons capability.

it's not a great post
MacArthur fk up many times before that
Ike screwed up before also
Montgomery screwed up
just because they are generals, doesn't mean they are perfect

 

[harmonica]

Rather than quote and respond to every argument, I'll just present some facts in the form of bullets:

* It is well documented that General Eisenhower opposed using nukes on Japan, partly because he was aware of the intelligence that indicated that Japan was already soundly beaten and that the Japanese were looking for a way to surrender with a minimum loss of face. In his memoir, Eisenhower stated that he told Secretary of War Stimson that using the atomic bomb on Japan was “completely unnecessary” (Mandate for Change, pp. 312-313).

Eisenhower’s son later recalled that before the bomb was dropped on Hiroshima, his father told him, “I’d sure hate to see it used, because Japan’s licked anyway, and they know it” (Interview with Ed Edwin, February 28, 1967, Eisenhower Library; Summary: Section C).

Stephen Ambrose states that Eisenhower advised Truman against dropping the A-bomb on Japan (Eisenhower, Volume 1: Soldier General of the Army, pp. 425-426).

* Somewhat surprisingly, General MacArthur likewise opposed using nukes on Japan. Numerous sources, including MacArthur’s pilot, confirm this. When Norman Cousins interviewed MacArthur, he was surprised to learn that MacArthur was never consulted about using the atomic bomb on Japan and that MacArthur “saw no military justification for the dropping of the bomb.” Added Cousins,

The war might have ended weeks earlier, he [MacArthur] said, if the United States had agreed, as it later did anyway, to the retention of the institution of the emperor. (The Pathology of Power, p. 71)​

* General Carter Clarke, who was in charge of preparing MAGIC summaries in 1945 and who served on General Marshall’s staff, stated,

We brought them [the Japanese] down to an abject surrender through the accelerated sinking of their merchant marine and hunger alone, and then we didn’t need to do it [use the atomic bomb], and we knew we didn’t need to do it, and they knew that we knew that we didn’t need to do it, we used them as an experiment for two atomic bombs. (Clarke interview with Dr. Forrest Pogue, July 6, 1959, p. 29, Pogue Papers, GCMRL; Alperovitz, The Decision to Use the Atomic Bomb, p. 359; see also Hiroshima: Quotes)​

* General George C. Kinney, commander of the Army Air Forces in the Southwest Pacific, when asked in a 1969 interview if the decision to use the atomic bomb was militarily and politically wise, he said,

No! I think we had the Japanese licked anyhow. I think they would have quit probably within a week or so of when they did quit. (Alperovitz, The Decision to Use the Atomic Bomb, p. 336)​

* Not everyone turned a blind eye to the immorality of our fire-bombing of Japanese cities. For example, General Bonner Fellers, who served on MacArthur’s staff, stated in a June 1945 memorandum that LeMay’s fire-bombing raids on Japanese cities were “one of the most ruthless and barbaric killings of non-combatants in all history” (John Dower, War Without Mercy, p. 41).

* The fact that by early 1945 Japan was virtually defenseless against air attacks is shown by the fact that by June 1945 we were losing only 0.003 of our bombers in air raids on Japan—in other words, only 3 out of every 1,000 bombers was being shot down (Paul Ham, Hiroshima Nagasaki: The Real Story of the Atomic Bombings and Their Aftermath, p. 176).

* To give you some idea of Japan’s prostrate state by July 1945, consider these facts (all of these facts are discussed in Ham’s book, among other sources):

-- In July 1945 the Japanese government was forced to impose yet another cut in staple food rations: a cut of 10%, in fact. As a result, the food ration per person fell below 1700 calories, well below the minimum needed to maintain basic health. The United States Strategic Bombing Survey, published in 1946, noted,

Undernourishment produced a major increase in the incidence of beriberi and tuberculosis. It also had an important effect on the efficiency and morale of the people, and contributed to absenteeism among workers. (p. 21)​

-- Cases of night blindness due to malnutrition became common.

-- Japan was even running so low on rice that the government announced a program to process acorns as a substitute for rice.

-- The food shortage became so bad that the government actually published articles and booklets on how to eat food no one would usually eat, such as “Food Substitution: How to Eat Things People Normally Wouldn’t Eat.” One government booklet advised citizens to eat locusts and insect pupas.

-- Japan was running so low on fuel that the government began exploring pine-root oil as a fuel substitute for aircraft.

-- Japan was running so low on metal that its military aircraft were increasingly made with larger amounts of wood. In fact, in July the government announced it had established a department to make planes out of wood.

-- Starting in early 1944 the lack of metals became so severe, due to the U.S. naval blockade, that the Japanese government was forced to start confiscating and melting bridge railings, metal fences, metal statues (even those in Buddhist temples), gate posts, notice boards, and even household items.

-- Although Japan built underground aircraft factories, raw materials were in such short supply that only 10—yes, just 10—aircraft were manufactured in those factories.

-- In March 1945, imports of crude oil, rubber, coal, and iron ore ceased.

-- By June 1945, Japan had a grand total of 9,000 planes of any kind. Most of these were trainers or old planes designed for kamikaze raids, and less than half of them were properly equipped for such raids. The majority of those planes could not have been flown anyway due to the lack of fuel.

-- By early 1945, the vast majority of Japan’s merchant vessels had been destroyed.

-- By June 1945, the Japanese naval surface fleet had essentially ceased to exist. The United States Strategic Bombing Survey reported,

After the liberation of the Philippines and the capture of Okinawa, oil imports into Japan were completely cut off; fuel oil stocks had been exhausted, and the few remaining Japanese warships, being without fuel, were decommissioned or were covered with camouflage and used only as antiaircraft platforms. Except for its shore-based Kamikaze airforce and surface and undersea craft adapted for anti-invasion suicide attack, the Japanese Navy had ceased to exist. (p. 11)​

-- By June 1945, every major Japanese port was mined by the U.S. Navy. Indeed, U.S. Navy mines closed the Shimonoseki Straights, which cut off naval activity between the Japanese main islands of Honshu and Kyushu. U.S. Navy mines also shut down 18 of Japan’s 21 naval repair yards on the Inland Sea. Hiroshima’s port was shut down. Nagasaki’s port, formerly a major port, became nearly worthless.

-- By early 1945, few Japanese stores remained open because there were so few commercial goods being produced or imported.

-- As mentioned earlier, Japan was virtually defenseless against air attacks. By June 1945, the odds of a U.S. bomber being shot down were 3 out of 1,000.

By June 1945, Japan posed no threat to us. The Japanese were purely on the defensive and their situation was only getting worse by the day because of our virtually total naval embargo and total control of the air. Thus, it should come as no surprise that the United States Strategic Bombing Survey concluded that “in all probability” Japan would have surrendered before 1 November 1945 even if we had not dropped nukes and even if the Soviets had not invaded:

Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts, and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey's opinion that certainly prior to 31 December 1945, and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated. (p. 26)​

There was no need to kill hundreds of thousands of women and children by nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki. If Truman had listed to the majority of the senior officials who were advising him, instead of listening to his Japanophobic Secretary of State James Byrnes, the Pacific War could have been ended weeks earlier and hundreds of thousands of lives would have been spared. Even Churchill tried to persuade Truman to clarify the emperor's status in unconditional surrender, but he wouldn't listen because Byrnes screamed against it, and this refusal greatly aided the cause of Japan's hardliners and hamstrung the moderates.

Great post! However, had the U.S. not used the bombs and the war continued past August, 1945, it's possible even more Japanese would have died from starvation and disease alone.

I also have to wonder if Truman wanted to put on a display for Stalin to demonstrate that we really had acquired a nuclear weapons capability.

.....plus the generals didn't think the Japanese would attack Pearl--they were a little wrong on that

 

[gipper]

Rather than quote and yourespond to every argument, I'll just present some facts in the form of bullets:

* It is well documented that General Eisenhower opposed using nukes on Japan, partly because he was aware of the intelligence that indicated that Japan was already soundly beaten and that the Japanese were looking for a way to surrender with a minimum loss of face. In his memoir, Eisenhower stated that he told Secretary of War Stimson that using the atomic bomb on Japan was “completely unnecessary” (Mandate for Change, pp. 312-313).

Eisenhower’s son later recalled that before the bomb was dropped on Hiroshima, his father told him, “I’d sure hate to see it used, because Japan’s licked anyway, and they know it” (Interview with Ed Edwin, February 28, 1967, Eisenhower Library; Summary: Section C).

Stephen Ambrose states that Eisenhower advised Truman against dropping the A-bomb on Japan (Eisenhower, Volume 1: Soldier General of the Army, pp. 425-426).

* Somewhat surprisingly, General MacArthur likewise opposed using nukes on Japan. Numerous sources, including MacArthur’s pilot, confirm this. When Norman Cousins interviewed MacArthur, he was surprised to learn that MacArthur was never consulted about using the atomic bomb on Japan and that MacArthur “saw no military justification for the dropping of the bomb.” Added Cousins,

The war might have ended weeks earlier, he [MacArthur] said, if the United States had agreed, as it later did anyway, to the retention of the institution of the emperor. (The Pathology of Power, p. 71)​

* General Carter Clarke, who was in charge of preparing MAGIC summaries in 1945 and who served on General Marshall’s staff, stated,

We brought them [the Japanese] down to an abject surrender through the accelerated sinking of their merchant marine and hunger alone, and then we didn’t need to do it [use the atomic bomb], and we knew we didn’t need to do it, and they knew that we knew that we didn’t need to do it, we used them as an experiment for two atomic bombs. (Clarke interview with Dr. Forrest Pogue, July 6, 1959, p. 29, Pogue Papers, GCMRL; Alperovitz, The Decision to Use the Atomic Bomb, p. 359; see also Hiroshima: Quotes)​

* General George C. Kinney, commander of the Army Air Forces in the Southwest Pacific, when asked in a 1969 interview if the decision to use the atomic bomb was militarily and politically wise, he said,

No! I think we had the Japanese licked anyhow. I think they would have quit probably within a week or so of when they did quit. (Alperovitz, The Decision to Use the Atomic Bomb, p. 336)​

* Not everyone turned a blind eye to the immorality of our fire-bombing of Japanese cities. For example, General Bonner Fellers, who served on MacArthur’s staff, stated in a June 1945 memorandum that LeMay’s fire-bombing raids on Japanese cities were “one of the most ruthless and barbaric killings of non-combatants in all history” (John Dower, War Without Mercy, p. 41).

* The fact that by early 1945 Japan was virtually defenseless against air attacks is shown by the fact that by June 1945 we were losing only 0.003 of our bombers in air raids on Japan—in other words, only 3 out of every 1,000 bombers was being shot down (Paul Ham, Hiroshima Nagasaki: The Real Story of the Atomic Bombings and Their Aftermath, p. 176).

* To give you some idea of Japan’s prostrate state by July 1945, consider these facts (all of these facts are discussed in Ham’s book, among other sources):

-- In July 1945 the Japanese government was forced to impose yet another cut in staple food rations: a cut of 10%, in fact. As a result, the food ration per person fell below 1700 calories, well below the minimum needed to maintain basic health. The United States Strategic Bombing Survey, published in 1946, noted,

Undernourishment produced a major increase in the incidence of beriberi and tuberculosis. It also had an important effect on the efficiency and morale of the people, and contributed to absenteeism among workers. (p. 21)​

-- Cases of night blindness due to malnutrition became common.

-- Japan was even running so low on rice that the government announced a program to process acorns as a substitute for rice.

-- The food shortage became so bad that the government actually published articles and booklets on how to eat food no one would usually eat, such as “Food Substitution: How to Eat Things People Normally Wouldn’t Eat.” One government booklet advised citizens to eat locusts and insect pupas.

-- Japan was running so low on fuel that the government began exploring pine-root oil as a fuel substitute for aircraft.

-- Japan was running so low on metal that its military aircraft were increasingly made with larger amounts of wood. In fact, in July the government announced it had established a department to make planes out of wood.

-- Starting in early 1944 the lack of metals became so severe, due to the U.S. naval blockade, that the Japanese government was forced to start confiscating and melting bridge railings, metal fences, metal statues (even those in Buddhist temples), gate posts, notice boards, and even household items.

-- Although Japan built underground aircraft factories, raw materials were in such short supply that only 10—yes, just 10—aircraft were manufactured in those factories.

-- In March 1945, imports of crude oil, rubber, coal, and iron ore ceased.

-- By June 1945, Japan had a grand total of 9,000 planes of any kind. Most of these were trainers or old planes designed for kamikaze raids, and less than half of them were properly equipped for such raids. The majority of those planes could not have been flown anyway due to the lack of fuel.

-- By early 1945, the vast majority of Japan’s merchant vessels had been destroyed.

-- By June 1945, the Japanese naval surface fleet had essentially ceased to exist. The United States Strategic Bombing Survey reported,

After the liberation of the Philippines and the capture of Okinawa, oil imports into Japan were completely cut off; fuel oil stocks had been exhausted, and the few remaining Japanese warships, being without fuel, were decommissioned or were covered with camouflage and used only as antiaircraft platforms. Except for its shore-based Kamikaze airforce and surface and undersea craft adapted for anti-invasion suicide attack, the Japanese Navy had ceased to exist. (p. 11)​

-- By June 1945, every major Japanese port was mined by the U.S. Navy. Indeed, U.S. Navy mines closed the Shimonoseki Straights, which cut off naval activity between the Japanese main islands of Honshu and Kyushu. U.S. Navy mines also shut down 18 of Japan’s 21 naval repair yards on the Inland Sea. Hiroshima’s port was shut down. Nagasaki’s port, formerly a major port, became nearly worthless.

-- By early 1945, few Japanese stores remained open because there were so few commercial goods being produced or imported.

-- As mentioned earlier, Japan was virtually defenseless against air attacks. By June 1945, the odds of a U.S. bomber being shot down were 3 out of 1,000.

By June 1945, Japan posed no threat to us. The Japanese were purely on the defensive and their situation was only getting worse by the day because of our virtually total naval embargo and total control of the air. Thus, it should come as no surprise that the United States Strategic Bombing Survey concluded that “in all probability” Japan would have surrendered before 1 November 1945 even if we had not dropped nukes and even if the Soviets had not invaded:

Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts, and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey's opinion that certainly prior to 31 December 1945, and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated. (p. 26)​

There was no need to kill hundreds of thousands of women and children by nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki. If Truman had listed to the majority of the senior officials who were advising him, instead of listening to his Japanophobic Secretary of State James Byrnes, the Pacific War could have been ended weeks earlier and hundreds of thousands of lives would have been spared. Even Churchill tried to persuade Truman to clarify the emperor's status in unconditional surrender, but he wouldn't listen because Byrnes screamed against it, and this refusal greatly aided the cause of Japan's hardliners and hamstrung the moderates.

is that why they surrendered prior to Aug 1945?

They tried to surrender several times before Truman committed his war crime,but apparently those times don’t count to stupid statists because they wanted certain conditions. Like please don’t hang the Emperor, which Truman agreed to AFTER he emulated Hitler.

please link reputable sites on how they tried to surrender
you are full of shit

You just proved you’re uninformed. Get informed.

 

[gipper]

This is the standard by which you wish to live? I hope you have no small children.

Actually that was the standard of warfare Lincoln used and many others came to copy in WW II; it's not a 'standard' it is what 'total war' means;Germany adopted it in WW I with the bombings of London and again in WW II, so did the Japanese in their invasions throughout the early part of the Century before they allied with Germany, and it is the kind of warfare they would have used on us. I have zero sympathy for the Japanese or the Germans or the Soviets; they made their beds and reaped what they sowed.

It's just bizarre that all the sniveling and whining and twisted 'morality' going on here is directed at the U.S. for some reason; I guess that is what happens when ideological usefulness trumps historical realities these days.

Yeah what’s the big deal anyway? Mass murdering the defenseless is just good tactics in war...but only if done to my enemy.

Killing one's enemy before they can kill them typically separates the winners from the losers.

There it is again. Kill kill kill...lots of women and children. It’s good for business.

You seem a little emotional.

Yeah one shouldn’t be concerned about the mass murder of innocent civilians. I mean like...who cares man. Smoke another joint.

 

[K9Buck]

Rather than quote and respond to every argument, I'll just present some facts in the form of bullets:

* It is well documented that General Eisenhower opposed using nukes on Japan, partly because he was aware of the intelligence that indicated that Japan was already soundly beaten and that the Japanese were looking for a way to surrender with a minimum loss of face. In his memoir, Eisenhower stated that he told Secretary of War Stimson that using the atomic bomb on Japan was “completely unnecessary” (Mandate for Change, pp. 312-313).

Eisenhower’s son later recalled that before the bomb was dropped on Hiroshima, his father told him, “I’d sure hate to see it used, because Japan’s licked anyway, and they know it” (Interview with Ed Edwin, February 28, 1967, Eisenhower Library; Summary: Section C).

Stephen Ambrose states that Eisenhower advised Truman against dropping the A-bomb on Japan (Eisenhower, Volume 1: Soldier General of the Army, pp. 425-426).

* Somewhat surprisingly, General MacArthur likewise opposed using nukes on Japan. Numerous sources, including MacArthur’s pilot, confirm this. When Norman Cousins interviewed MacArthur, he was surprised to learn that MacArthur was never consulted about using the atomic bomb on Japan and that MacArthur “saw no military justification for the dropping of the bomb.” Added Cousins,

The war might have ended weeks earlier, he [MacArthur] said, if the United States had agreed, as it later did anyway, to the retention of the institution of the emperor. (The Pathology of Power, p. 71)​

* General Carter Clarke, who was in charge of preparing MAGIC summaries in 1945 and who served on General Marshall’s staff, stated,

We brought them [the Japanese] down to an abject surrender through the accelerated sinking of their merchant marine and hunger alone, and then we didn’t need to do it [use the atomic bomb], and we knew we didn’t need to do it, and they knew that we knew that we didn’t need to do it, we used them as an experiment for two atomic bombs. (Clarke interview with Dr. Forrest Pogue, July 6, 1959, p. 29, Pogue Papers, GCMRL; Alperovitz, The Decision to Use the Atomic Bomb, p. 359; see also Hiroshima: Quotes)​

* General George C. Kinney, commander of the Army Air Forces in the Southwest Pacific, when asked in a 1969 interview if the decision to use the atomic bomb was militarily and politically wise, he said,

No! I think we had the Japanese licked anyhow. I think they would have quit probably within a week or so of when they did quit. (Alperovitz, The Decision to Use the Atomic Bomb, p. 336)​

* Not everyone turned a blind eye to the immorality of our fire-bombing of Japanese cities. For example, General Bonner Fellers, who served on MacArthur’s staff, stated in a June 1945 memorandum that LeMay’s fire-bombing raids on Japanese cities were “one of the most ruthless and barbaric killings of non-combatants in all history” (John Dower, War Without Mercy, p. 41).

* The fact that by early 1945 Japan was virtually defenseless against air attacks is shown by the fact that by June 1945 we were losing only 0.003 of our bombers in air raids on Japan—in other words, only 3 out of every 1,000 bombers was being shot down (Paul Ham, Hiroshima Nagasaki: The Real Story of the Atomic Bombings and Their Aftermath, p. 176).

* To give you some idea of Japan’s prostrate state by July 1945, consider these facts (all of these facts are discussed in Ham’s book, among other sources):

-- In July 1945 the Japanese government was forced to impose yet another cut in staple food rations: a cut of 10%, in fact. As a result, the food ration per person fell below 1700 calories, well below the minimum needed to maintain basic health. The United States Strategic Bombing Survey, published in 1946, noted,

Undernourishment produced a major increase in the incidence of beriberi and tuberculosis. It also had an important effect on the efficiency and morale of the people, and contributed to absenteeism among workers. (p. 21)​

-- Cases of night blindness due to malnutrition became common.

-- Japan was even running so low on rice that the government announced a program to process acorns as a substitute for rice.

-- The food shortage became so bad that the government actually published articles and booklets on how to eat food no one would usually eat, such as “Food Substitution: How to Eat Things People Normally Wouldn’t Eat.” One government booklet advised citizens to eat locusts and insect pupas.

-- Japan was running so low on fuel that the government began exploring pine-root oil as a fuel substitute for aircraft.

-- Japan was running so low on metal that its military aircraft were increasingly made with larger amounts of wood. In fact, in July the government announced it had established a department to make planes out of wood.

-- Starting in early 1944 the lack of metals became so severe, due to the U.S. naval blockade, that the Japanese government was forced to start confiscating and melting bridge railings, metal fences, metal statues (even those in Buddhist temples), gate posts, notice boards, and even household items.

-- Although Japan built underground aircraft factories, raw materials were in such short supply that only 10—yes, just 10—aircraft were manufactured in those factories.

-- In March 1945, imports of crude oil, rubber, coal, and iron ore ceased.

-- By June 1945, Japan had a grand total of 9,000 planes of any kind. Most of these were trainers or old planes designed for kamikaze raids, and less than half of them were properly equipped for such raids. The majority of those planes could not have been flown anyway due to the lack of fuel.

-- By early 1945, the vast majority of Japan’s merchant vessels had been destroyed.

-- By June 1945, the Japanese naval surface fleet had essentially ceased to exist. The United States Strategic Bombing Survey reported,

After the liberation of the Philippines and the capture of Okinawa, oil imports into Japan were completely cut off; fuel oil stocks had been exhausted, and the few remaining Japanese warships, being without fuel, were decommissioned or were covered with camouflage and used only as antiaircraft platforms. Except for its shore-based Kamikaze airforce and surface and undersea craft adapted for anti-invasion suicide attack, the Japanese Navy had ceased to exist. (p. 11)​

-- By June 1945, every major Japanese port was mined by the U.S. Navy. Indeed, U.S. Navy mines closed the Shimonoseki Straights, which cut off naval activity between the Japanese main islands of Honshu and Kyushu. U.S. Navy mines also shut down 18 of Japan’s 21 naval repair yards on the Inland Sea. Hiroshima’s port was shut down. Nagasaki’s port, formerly a major port, became nearly worthless.

-- By early 1945, few Japanese stores remained open because there were so few commercial goods being produced or imported.

-- As mentioned earlier, Japan was virtually defenseless against air attacks. By June 1945, the odds of a U.S. bomber being shot down were 3 out of 1,000.

By June 1945, Japan posed no threat to us. The Japanese were purely on the defensive and their situation was only getting worse by the day because of our virtually total naval embargo and total control of the air. Thus, it should come as no surprise that the United States Strategic Bombing Survey concluded that “in all probability” Japan would have surrendered before 1 November 1945 even if we had not dropped nukes and even if the Soviets had not invaded:

Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts, and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey's opinion that certainly prior to 31 December 1945, and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated. (p. 26)​

There was no need to kill hundreds of thousands of women and children by nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki. If Truman had listed to the majority of the senior officials who were advising him, instead of listening to his Japanophobic Secretary of State James Byrnes, the Pacific War could have been ended weeks earlier and hundreds of thousands of lives would have been spared. Even Churchill tried to persuade Truman to clarify the emperor's status in unconditional surrender, but he wouldn't listen because Byrnes screamed against it, and this refusal greatly aided the cause of Japan's hardliners and hamstrung the moderates.

Great post! However, had the U.S. not used the bombs and the war continued past August, 1945, it's possible even more Japanese would have died from starvation and disease alone.

I also have to wonder if Truman wanted to put on a display for Stalin to demonstrate that we really had acquired a nuclear weapons capability.

it's not a great post
MacArthur fk up many times before that
Ike screwed up before also
Montgomery screwed up
just because they are generals, doesn't mean they are perfect

I recently read a book about MacArthur and what happened during his reign as supreme commander in Japan. What was posted above fits with what I read. I happen to believe that dropping the bombs probably DID save lives, as well as serve as a deterrent to Stalin. To argue otherwise is purely and highly speculative.

 

[K9Buck]

Actually that was the standard of warfare Lincoln used and many others came to copy in WW II; it's not a 'standard' it is what 'total war' means;Germany adopted it in WW I with the bombings of London and again in WW II, so did the Japanese in their invasions throughout the early part of the Century before they allied with Germany, and it is the kind of warfare they would have used on us. I have zero sympathy for the Japanese or the Germans or the Soviets; they made their beds and reaped what they sowed.

It's just bizarre that all the sniveling and whining and twisted 'morality' going on here is directed at the U.S. for some reason; I guess that is what happens when ideological usefulness trumps historical realities these days.

Yeah what’s the big deal anyway? Mass murdering the defenseless is just good tactics in war...but only if done to my enemy.

Killing one's enemy before they can kill them typically separates the winners from the losers.

There it is again. Kill kill kill...lots of women and children. It’s good for business.

You seem a little emotional.

Yeah one shouldn’t be concerned about the mass murder of innocent civilians. I mean like...who cares man. Smoke another joint.

Yea man.

 

[GreenAndBlue]

The best American value is that many Americans didn't die in the invasion of Japan.

But Eisenhower said the invasion did not need to happen


Ike rounded up all the illegals on ships and sent them to south Mexico

Ike said beware of the military industrialist complex


Ike was saying NO to globalists insane Greed

 

[K9Buck]

The best American value is that many Americans didn't die in the invasion of Japan.

But Eisenhower said the invasion did not need to happen


Ike rounded up all the illegals on ships and sent them to south Mexico

Ike said beware of the military industrialist complex


Ike was saying NO to globalists insane Greed

Good men can disagree, right?

 

[GreenAndBlue]

China had lost over 20 million to Japan and was also getting ready to attack Japan as America had Japan where it could not come out to harm

Russia and China lost over 20 million each in the fight against Germany and Japan

America lost half a million

 

[GreenAndBlue]

and we see now how the deep
State is now destroying America

America's IQs of its voters have dropped like a rock to record low IQs which elects crooks

Only crooks want low IQ voters

All nations should now be scared of America's lying government who rigs their elections against their voters

 

[GreenAndBlue]

What made America delay to enter world war 11

Was it the Catholics of northeast us?

Since Italy Catholics joined hitler?

Japan was slaughtering China and Korea in 1937

Hitler was slaughtering Europe in 1939

America did not enter until they were forced to by Japan's attack on pearl
Harbour at the end of 1941

Who caused America to delay ???

Was it the northeast Catholics ?? Or northeast greedy globalists waiting until other nations became weaker??

Was this behind Ike's warning to America ?

Beware of the military industrial complex maybe he was also warning about globalists !!!!!??

It seems the New York Times was hiding the Jewish death camps in Germany according to Mark levin

Today the same New York Times is hiding the deep states crookedness

 

[Picaro]

The best American value is that many Americans didn't die in the invasion of Japan.

But Eisenhower said the invasion did not need to happen


Ike rounded up all the illegals on ships and sent them to south Mexico

Ike said beware of the military industrialist complex


Ike was saying NO to globalists insane Greed

Yes, well, Ike waited until he was retired to get all philosophical n stuff, nerve when it would have made a difference.. He made many errors in judgement himself, among all those good ones he also made, like stopping our advance in 1945 right where he said he we should stop in 1942, in his original plan that got him the big command leaping over many others. He shortsightedly forced Israel and France to give up the Suez Canal, among other things, fearful of angering insane Arabs, but it turns out it doesn't matter what one does, they're crazed morons and will invent something to get angry over anyway, no matter what; many other Presidents have made the same kinds of errors since.

 

[Picaro]

What made America delay to enter world war 11

Was it the Catholics of northeast us?

Since Italy Catholics joined hitler?

Japan was slaughtering China and Korea in 1937

Hitler was slaughtering Europe in 1939

America did not enter until they were forced to by Japan's attack on pearl
Harbour at the end of 1941

Who caused America to delay ???

Was it the northeast Catholics ?? Or northeast greedy globalists waiting until other nations became weaker??

Was this behind Ike's warning to America ?

Beware of the military industrial complex maybe he was also warning about globalists !!!!!??

It seems the New York Times was hiding the Jewish death camps in Germany according to Mark levin

Today the same New York Times is hiding the deep states crookedness

A coalition of Republican isolationists and both Democrat and Republican admirers of Hitler, formed in an anti-FDR club of idiots and hacks is what delayed us. We should have shut Japan down when they invaded China. Hitler should have been shut down in 1938. Mostly it was rich guys who didn't want to pay taxes to support a strong military; they were happy hiding out on their fortified estates and hiding behind private armies after the Depression they caused, so they weren't at all concerned about the outside world.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Rather than quote and respond to every argument, I'll just present some facts in the form of bullets:

* It is well documented that General Eisenhower opposed using nukes on Japan, partly because he was aware of the intelligence that indicated that Japan was already soundly beaten and that the Japanese were looking for a way to surrender with a minimum loss of face. In his memoir, Eisenhower stated that he told Secretary of War Stimson that using the atomic bomb on Japan was “completely unnecessary” (Mandate for Change, pp. 312-313).

Eisenhower’s son later recalled that before the bomb was dropped on Hiroshima, his father told him, “I’d sure hate to see it used, because Japan’s licked anyway, and they know it” (Interview with Ed Edwin, February 28, 1967, Eisenhower Library; Summary: Section C).

Stephen Ambrose states that Eisenhower advised Truman against dropping the A-bomb on Japan (Eisenhower, Volume 1: Soldier General of the Army, pp. 425-426).

* Somewhat surprisingly, General MacArthur likewise opposed using nukes on Japan. Numerous sources, including MacArthur’s pilot, confirm this. When Norman Cousins interviewed MacArthur, he was surprised to learn that MacArthur was never consulted about using the atomic bomb on Japan and that MacArthur “saw no military justification for the dropping of the bomb.” Added Cousins,

The war might have ended weeks earlier, he [MacArthur] said, if the United States had agreed, as it later did anyway, to the retention of the institution of the emperor. (The Pathology of Power, p. 71)​

* General Carter Clarke, who was in charge of preparing MAGIC summaries in 1945 and who served on General Marshall’s staff, stated,

We brought them [the Japanese] down to an abject surrender through the accelerated sinking of their merchant marine and hunger alone, and then we didn’t need to do it [use the atomic bomb], and we knew we didn’t need to do it, and they knew that we knew that we didn’t need to do it, we used them as an experiment for two atomic bombs. (Clarke interview with Dr. Forrest Pogue, July 6, 1959, p. 29, Pogue Papers, GCMRL; Alperovitz, The Decision to Use the Atomic Bomb, p. 359; see also Hiroshima: Quotes)​

* General George C. Kinney, commander of the Army Air Forces in the Southwest Pacific, when asked in a 1969 interview if the decision to use the atomic bomb was militarily and politically wise, he said,

No! I think we had the Japanese licked anyhow. I think they would have quit probably within a week or so of when they did quit. (Alperovitz, The Decision to Use the Atomic Bomb, p. 336)​

* Not everyone turned a blind eye to the immorality of our fire-bombing of Japanese cities. For example, General Bonner Fellers, who served on MacArthur’s staff, stated in a June 1945 memorandum that LeMay’s fire-bombing raids on Japanese cities were “one of the most ruthless and barbaric killings of non-combatants in all history” (John Dower, War Without Mercy, p. 41).

* The fact that by early 1945 Japan was virtually defenseless against air attacks is shown by the fact that by June 1945 we were losing only 0.003 of our bombers in air raids on Japan—in other words, only 3 out of every 1,000 bombers was being shot down (Paul Ham, Hiroshima Nagasaki: The Real Story of the Atomic Bombings and Their Aftermath, p. 176).

* To give you some idea of Japan’s prostrate state by July 1945, consider these facts (all of these facts are discussed in Ham’s book, among other sources):

-- In July 1945 the Japanese government was forced to impose yet another cut in staple food rations: a cut of 10%, in fact. As a result, the food ration per person fell below 1700 calories, well below the minimum needed to maintain basic health. The United States Strategic Bombing Survey, published in 1946, noted,

Undernourishment produced a major increase in the incidence of beriberi and tuberculosis. It also had an important effect on the efficiency and morale of the people, and contributed to absenteeism among workers. (p. 21)​

-- Cases of night blindness due to malnutrition became common.

-- Japan was even running so low on rice that the government announced a program to process acorns as a substitute for rice.

-- The food shortage became so bad that the government actually published articles and booklets on how to eat food no one would usually eat, such as “Food Substitution: How to Eat Things People Normally Wouldn’t Eat.” One government booklet advised citizens to eat locusts and insect pupas.

-- Japan was running so low on fuel that the government began exploring pine-root oil as a fuel substitute for aircraft.

-- Japan was running so low on metal that its military aircraft were increasingly made with larger amounts of wood. In fact, in July the government announced it had established a department to make planes out of wood.

-- Starting in early 1944 the lack of metals became so severe, due to the U.S. naval blockade, that the Japanese government was forced to start confiscating and melting bridge railings, metal fences, metal statues (even those in Buddhist temples), gate posts, notice boards, and even household items.

-- Although Japan built underground aircraft factories, raw materials were in such short supply that only 10—yes, just 10—aircraft were manufactured in those factories.

-- In March 1945, imports of crude oil, rubber, coal, and iron ore ceased.

-- By June 1945, Japan had a grand total of 9,000 planes of any kind. Most of these were trainers or old planes designed for kamikaze raids, and less than half of them were properly equipped for such raids. The majority of those planes could not have been flown anyway due to the lack of fuel.

-- By early 1945, the vast majority of Japan’s merchant vessels had been destroyed.

-- By June 1945, the Japanese naval surface fleet had essentially ceased to exist. The United States Strategic Bombing Survey reported,

After the liberation of the Philippines and the capture of Okinawa, oil imports into Japan were completely cut off; fuel oil stocks had been exhausted, and the few remaining Japanese warships, being without fuel, were decommissioned or were covered with camouflage and used only as antiaircraft platforms. Except for its shore-based Kamikaze airforce and surface and undersea craft adapted for anti-invasion suicide attack, the Japanese Navy had ceased to exist. (p. 11)​

-- By June 1945, every major Japanese port was mined by the U.S. Navy. Indeed, U.S. Navy mines closed the Shimonoseki Straights, which cut off naval activity between the Japanese main islands of Honshu and Kyushu. U.S. Navy mines also shut down 18 of Japan’s 21 naval repair yards on the Inland Sea. Hiroshima’s port was shut down. Nagasaki’s port, formerly a major port, became nearly worthless.

-- By early 1945, few Japanese stores remained open because there were so few commercial goods being produced or imported.

-- As mentioned earlier, Japan was virtually defenseless against air attacks. By June 1945, the odds of a U.S. bomber being shot down were 3 out of 1,000.

By June 1945, Japan posed no threat to us. The Japanese were purely on the defensive and their situation was only getting worse by the day because of our virtually total naval embargo and total control of the air. Thus, it should come as no surprise that the United States Strategic Bombing Survey concluded that “in all probability” Japan would have surrendered before 1 November 1945 even if we had not dropped nukes and even if the Soviets had not invaded:

Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts, and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey's opinion that certainly prior to 31 December 1945, and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated. (p. 26)​

There was no need to kill hundreds of thousands of women and children by nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki. If Truman had listed to the majority of the senior officials who were advising him, instead of listening to his Japanophobic Secretary of State James Byrnes, the Pacific War could have been ended weeks earlier and hundreds of thousands of lives would have been spared. Even Churchill tried to persuade Truman to clarify the emperor's status in unconditional surrender, but he wouldn't listen because Byrnes screamed against it, and this refusal greatly aided the cause of Japan's hardliners and hamstrung the moderates.

is that why they surrendered prior to Aug 1945?

They tried to surrender several times before Truman committed his war crime,but apparently those times don’t count to stupid statists because they wanted certain conditions. Like please don’t hang the Emperor, which Truman agreed to AFTER he emulated Hitler.

There is NO record ANYWHERE of the Government of Japan EVER offering to surrender before the Emperor did after 2 Atomic Bombs.