The Truth about Mormons

[Truthspeaker]

As long as you mutants are trying to impose your stupidity on the rest of us, I feel just fine mocking you.

Ok I'll add mutants to the list of insults which include a curious mix:
Crazy, deluded, imposters, deceivers, brainwashed, pedophiles and now mutants. Tell me, if you're crazy and deluded, how can you be intelligent enough to deceive educated and intelligent people like doctors and lawyers hundreds of years after you're born that what you're saying is true? Especially if you're a mutant pedophile? That Joseph Smith was an impossibly brilliant con-man or He really was a prophet of God. Again, if you Joe, are the opposite of all the insults you've hurled at Smith and the rest of us, why would you waste your time talking to such crazy people? Hmm.. cuz you just can't help fighting against the truth. You and I both know these words will haunt you the rest of your life despite your snide remarks in response. I feel sorry for you genuinely and it's a sad story that people like you can get to the point you're at. It's just too bad. I refuse from this point to jab or make fun of you in any way. I'm simply going to relay the words of God to you because there is nothing else that can help you.

Not really. Not that there is anything wrong with it. Only prudes get upset, usually because they are insecure about their own sexuality.

I forgot to add prudes to the list. I have no interest in your sexual life but I can tell that pornography has contributed to your spiritual desensitzation. You may do as you wish, of course. That is God's way, to let you make your own choices. The Devil's way is to force people to do things. Satan's rules are far more restrictive than God's if you really think about it in an eternal perspective. But again you believe that this is it when you die so we can't agree there. I'm 100% certain life continues after your body dies. 100%.
And guess what... sexuality is as much a part of the next life as it is here. Why shouldn't it be? There's nothing to be ashamed of? God created sex and set the boundaries for it's use so that we could enjoy it to the fullest. Quite secure indeed.

Life doesn't have questions. You live, you die. That's pretty much it. That you live in fear of death to where you subscribe to whatever batshit crazy nonsense comes up just shows your own fear. I'd rather enjoy the time I have, as long as what I do doesn't hurt anyone.

You may lie to yourself as much as you like. But if you are saying that you have no questions then you are saying you have all knowledge and you are a regular original know it all. We'll never get anywhere if you think that about yourself. Death is nothing to be afraid of.. it's just the next phase of life. Since I know that, all fear of the unknown is wiped away. So sad that you don't know that.
You also don't know that that selfish attitude does directly hurt people as a whole society. Because you don't seek to help others and only yourself. Again... Sad.

But there were no words. His neighbors just carved some symbols of a language they didn't understand on some bronze plates. If he was even marginally fluent in "Reformed Egyptian" like he claimed he was, he'd know he was looking at gibberish.

As I said before. Joseph didn't have the Urim and Thummim with him. So he could have made errors on his own in interpreting something of his own. When someone presents such a convincing fake it takes a while to figure out that you've been duped. Being fooled isn't a sin. It happens to the best of us. Prophet's aren't infallible. Case in point, the Book of Mormon is obviously true. The evidences spiritually and physically are mountainous. These he claimed to have translated by the power of God. Which he obviously did. So whatever happens with the Kinderhook Plates doesn't matter and there will be more research and explanation done in the future. But since the Book of Mormon is a solid rock of offense to skeptics, That remains the foundation of our argument, not the Kinderhook Plates. By the way he never claimed he was fluent in ancient languages. He claimed he did not understand them. He was a farm boy in the 1800s. How could he be? It was all through the power of God. He didn't use the same method to interpret the Kinderhook Plates. He should have consulted God first but he didn't.

Or maybe he was making all the stuff up. I mean, we can go on all day about all the stuff he got wrong, all the places he failed as a prophet, like his claim that there were people living on the moon dressed like Quakers.

You could always go on and on and I'll go on and on with you until you are outlasted. I love it but you'll eventually get tired of it because we have nothing to hide. You can always say he made it up. that's the easy way out rather than hard research coupled with prayer. As far as the moon weirdness, that was an excited young girl who grossly imagined something out of what Joseph said. He never said what you're accusing him of.

And you Mormon Apologists do all sorts of handstands about why smith got that wrong or how he never said what people attributed to him or whatever. Or how the Nephite Civilization could have been what the Roman Civilization was in the Americas, and yet didn't leave ONE shred of Archeological evidence accepted by a non-Mormon Scholar.

First of all a scholar is a scholar and you're wrong in assuming that only Mormon Scholars have accepted evidence of the Book of Mormon fact. I've already laid out pages upon pages of evidence on this thread which I'm sure you aren't interested in reading but they're there. "No evidence" is extremely irresponsible on your part to say the least.

Heck, do I need to throw in the Salamander Letter just for fun?

Salamander letter? ok just for fun only, because that can't be taken seriously. Now that's what you call a hoax.

But applying Occam's razor, the simplest explanation is usually the correct one.

Usually, not always. but God is a complicated God. He's always been around so he surely does things differently than the rest of us.

The simplest explanation is that he was a two-bit hustler who made up a religion, and like Koresh and Jones and Hubbard and all the other hucksters who made up religions, started believing his own bullshit.

Unlike those fiends you've mentioned, He knew what he was saying was true and he never asked his followers to kill themselves either. Well I don't know enough about Hubbard to call him a fiend so I'll just retract that label from him. I know he started Scientology right? But with regard to Smith. You could hardly call him 2 bit even if he was really hustling people. He wrote things, he held sermons, he was persecuted, he set up an entire infrastructure an led a faith of many thousands which has grown in to many millions of people who donate of their time and money to help the poor and suffering as well as practice their religion.
Koresh and Jones were true criminals who operated on a small scale. Your research is severely lacking. Major fail on the comparison. and it's impossible to believe something you know to be a lie. You may still live by those principals but you always know it's untrue. So either you are one of 3 things. A liar, committed to living the lie, deluded and committed to living that life because you think it's true, false as it may be or..... A true prophet of God.
Joseph Smith was obviously, to the true researcher, a true prophet of God.

In the State of IL, it was illegal in 1844. And honestly, 19th century people were creeped out by Smith, too. That's why the KILLED HIM.

You're still wrong. The outlawing of polygamy wasn't until the 1890s in the USA. That's why it wasn't illegal. You either just lied or didn't do your research. Which is it?

Well, of course, Hitler believed his own BS. If he didn't, he certainly wouldn't have gone as far as he did. A cynic never would have murdered millions of people in God's name if he didn't think God wanted them dead.

that goes to show your epic ignorance. Killers kill because they want to achieve a goal, or for the pure pleasure of it. Hitler was a goal oriented killer. He knew the commandment in bold writing in the Bible "thou shalt not kill"... You think he never read that passage. gimme a break...
Using God is the best way to get the populous on your side. Please come stronger than that. You absolutlely know that, being a staunch agnostic. Hitler's goal was to rule the world. The best way to do that is to get the people on your side and crush any resistance quickly.

Where do I even start. (Hey, check out my "How I became an agnostic thread", that's a good place to start. I figured this BS out when I was 10.) This is a God who murders babies. Babies.

I heard someone mention this before but they still failed to show me the scripture ordering the death of babies. Please enlighten me. Wow, by 10 years old huh? Your conceipt knows no bounds. So you're so smart that by age 10 you were running intellectual circles around the rest of us peons and sheople. wow. you're just... so smart... you were probably walking by 2 months and talking by 6 too right? Shouldn't you be a pro athlete and a rocket scientist by now smartypants?
You know-it-alls are a real piece of work.

Your reasoning is circular. It's okay for God to kill because he's God, but God can tell you not to kill, unless of course, it's one of the times he tells you it's okay to kill, like killing gays or adulterers or people who don't believe what you believe. Then it's okay.

God does have his reasons. They are often time specific and for a purpose. You'll notice how the command for killing those people hasn't been in effect for over 2000 years. The command is to invite all to come to God and invite all to be cleansed of sin through the atonement of Christ. Yes, God makes the rules.. He's God and if you don't want to follow him then that's just you being unwilling to follow anyone else's tune but your own. You're so wrapped up in yourself. You are probably your own favorite person I bet.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Perspective, yes, but your timelines are not in perspective.

Your deflection (Joseph and Mary) is 2,000 years out of date.

How is that a deflection at all to refer to the family of Jesus Christ, who we both worship?
If a wife of Joseph Smith happens to be 14, and the wife of Joseph is 12, where is Joseph Smith such a criminal... 2000 years or 1 year makes not a shred of difference. Right is right and wrong is wrong, right?

You have no evidence to indicate that JS's behavior was in line with normative behavior of older men and younger women. You better go look at the statistical averages of when men and women married in Illinois, Missouri, and Ohio in the 1830s and 1840s.

Who cares? What is right and what is popular and what is wrong etc are not always the same thing? Again you're suffering from presentism. Think outside our 2011 box. The average marriage age in 1830's USA was 21.2. That means there were teenagers below and older ladies above, so it was not uncommon for teenagers(by 2011 standards) to marry. Do you realize that nearly every country in the world today in 2011 allows the marriage of teens under 18. Many under 15. I mean a large percent and some actually define the marriage age as "puberty, or physical ability to have sex." Wow! 2011
This list will shock you.
Marriageable age - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Non third world countries of note:
England-16
Scotland-15
Ireland-16
South Africa(under 15 "with special consent")
Hong Kong-16
Japan-16
Denmark-15
Estonia-15
Sweden-under 18 with "special permission"
USA- every state in the union in 2011 allows marriages under age 16 with "permission" Freakin Massachussets as low as 12 for Crimony's sake and Arizona with no specified minimum! This is 2011 in USA!

This is right under everyone's nose.... today... right now...!

For a man in is older twenties and then thirties to mess around with young teenage girls, under the rube of plural marriage, is as foul then as it is now.

That's the popular notion in 2011 and has been for about the last 40 years or so. There's still thousands of years of previous human living that must be considered entirely degenerate by 2011 standards. Please consider context.

 

[barry1960]

Mormans = believe that if they live a good life they will eventually have their own world where they will be a god.

Joseph Smith = crazy guy who dug holes in his neighbors yards looking for gold. Good book on the subject is "No man knows my history."

Joseph Smith = used magic spectacles to interpret golden tablets. These tablets pre-dated the King James bible, but were mysteriously translated into King James english. In fact, some of the book of morman text is an exact copy of portions of the old testament.

Brigham Young = my great great grandpappy was complicite in the murder of 145 men, women and children. Might want to consider renaming that university in Salt Lake City.

Archaeology = big battle in upstate eliminated an entire race of people. If Mormans want evidence of the truth of the Book of Morman, why not dig up the bones?

Polygamy = mainstream Mormans got that staightened out as a condition of statehood for the Utah territory long ago. In all fairness, the Morman church should not be held responsible for the deviants in upstate Utah.

Mormanism = not a part of main stream Christianity. Whatever they religion is, it should be regarded as a cult by orthodox Christians.

Morman people = seem to be good, moral people, who are well educated and contribute to society (although my next door neighbors did not appear to get this memo so perhaps there are exceptions). Just goes to show you can fool some of the people all of the time.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Perspective, yes, but your timelines are not in perspective.

Your deflection (Joseph and Mary) is 2,000 years out of date.

How is that a deflection at all to refer to the family of Jesus Christ, who we both worship?
If a wife of Joseph Smith happens to be 14, and the wife of Joseph is 12, where is Joseph Smith such a criminal... 2000 years or 1 year makes not a shred of difference. Right is right and wrong is wrong, right?

You have no evidence to indicate that JS's behavior was in line with normative behavior of older men and younger women. You better go look at the statistical averages of when men and women married in Illinois, Missouri, and Ohio in the 1830s and 1840s.

Who cares? What is right and what is popular and what is wrong etc are not always the same thing? Again you're suffering from presentism. Think outside our 2011 box. The average marriage age in 1830's USA was 21.2. That means there were teenagers below and older ladies above, so it was not uncommon for teenagers(by 2011 standards) to marry. Do you realize that nearly every country in the world today in 2011 allows the marriage of teens under 18. Many under 15. I mean a large percent and some actually define the marriage age as "puberty, or physical ability to have sex." Wow! 2011
This list will shock you.
Marriageable age - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Non third world countries of note:
England-16
Scotland-15
Ireland-16
South Africa(under 15 "with special consent")
Hong Kong-16
Japan-16
Denmark-15
Estonia-15
Sweden-under 18 with "special permission"
USA- every state in the union in 2011 allows marriages under age 16 with "permission" Freakin Massachussets as low as 12 for Crimony's sake and Arizona with no specified minimum! This is 2011 in USA!

This is right under everyone's nose.... today... right now...!

For a man in is older twenties and then thirties to mess around with young teenage girls, under the rube of plural marriage, is as foul then as it is now.

That's the popular notion in 2011 and has been for about the last 40 years or so. There's still thousands of years of previous human living that must be considered entirely degenerate by 2011 standards. Please consider context.

Of course it is a deflection when you are trying to compare JS to the 19th century norms, then when it does not wor, try to compare him to Joseph and Mary! The majority of folks back then did not make it out of their thirties, many not out of their twenties.

Truth, look up "perspective" and then apply to your argumentation.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Mormans = believe that if they live a good life they will eventually have their own world where they will be a god.

there's a little more to it than that. But essentially we all have a chance to inherit what God has, including the knowledge he has of the Universe and with that knowledge He wants us to be just like Him. That said, you are right.

Joseph Smith = crazy guy who dug holes in his neighbors yards looking for gold. Good book on the subject is "No man knows my history."

come on, at least give an accurate description of the man. He was so organized and such a great natural leader that it was impossible for a genuinely crazy person to achieve the social status he had... At least call him a deceiver or a dictator or something that would be the evil equivalent of a prophet. Because really those are the only two things he could have been. An evil dictator, or a Prophet of God. Nothing lesser would describe him.

Joseph Smith = used magic spectacles to interpret golden tablets. These tablets pre-dated the King James bible, but were mysteriously translated into King James english. In fact, some of the book of morman text is an exact copy of portions of the old testament.

Spectacles? if you must call them so... But yes he translated by this method. And there's no mystery at all. It's very out in the open. The portions of Isaiah quoted in the books of Nephi are announced quotes of Isaiah from Israelites who followed Isaiah. They used his words to continue to inspire them in the New World. They just brought his writings with them across the sea. No mystery at all.
The english used in the book of mormon was translated into the best scriptural language understood by the people in 1830's USA and England. It was plain to their understanding and still fairly so for those who read well. Had it been translated today, the language used might have been a little more modern but tell the same story. This is not a problem at all. Why would he translate it any other way? the King James Bible originated in 1611 and language had not changed very much from 1611 to 1830.

Brigham Young = my great great grandpappy was complicite in the murder of 145 men, women and children. Might want to consider renaming that university in Salt Lake City.

This is tired and irresponsible and so plain to see from all the documents that Brigham Young immediately wrote to people involved in the murders "Let them alone! You must not meddle with them." Too bad his text message didn't arrive in time and had to settle for horse and buggy telegraph to send his message. It arrived a week too late and the murderers were held accountable and punished according to the law.
Any thing else trying to ascribe this crime to Young is a desperate, hateful, reach.

Archaeology = big battle in upstate eliminated an entire race of people. If Mormans want evidence of the truth of the Book of Morman, why not dig up the bones?

Because the bones aren't there in New York. That was not the cumorah of the battle in the book of Mormon which occured somewhere in Central America. Cumorah of New York is the final place where the exiled Moroni buried the record of the Nephites. He was a wanted fugitive in Central America and he could not stay there as they were butchering all remaining Christians. Ever heard of that happening before?

Polygamy = mainstream Mormans got that staightened out as a condition of statehood for the Utah territory long ago. In all fairness, the Morman church should not be held responsible for the deviants in upstate Utah.

Thank you.

Mormanism = not a part of main stream Christianity. Whatever they religion is, it should be regarded as a cult by orthodox Christians.

It's actually spelled Mormonism not Mormanism. and we don't call it that. You do. We call it the gospel of Christ.

Morman people = seem to be good, moral people, who are well educated and contribute to society (although my next door neighbors did not appear to get this memo so perhaps there are exceptions). Just goes to show you can fool some of the people all of the time.

Labels can be treacherous.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Perspective, yes, but your timelines are not in perspective.

Your deflection (Joseph and Mary) is 2,000 years out of date.

How is that a deflection at all to refer to the family of Jesus Christ, who we both worship?
If a wife of Joseph Smith happens to be 14, and the wife of Joseph is 12, where is Joseph Smith such a criminal... 2000 years or 1 year makes not a shred of difference. Right is right and wrong is wrong, right?



Who cares? What is right and what is popular and what is wrong etc are not always the same thing? Again you're suffering from presentism. Think outside our 2011 box. The average marriage age in 1830's USA was 21.2. That means there were teenagers below and older ladies above, so it was not uncommon for teenagers(by 2011 standards) to marry. Do you realize that nearly every country in the world today in 2011 allows the marriage of teens under 18. Many under 15. I mean a large percent and some actually define the marriage age as "puberty, or physical ability to have sex." Wow! 2011
This list will shock you.
Marriageable age - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Non third world countries of note:
England-16
Scotland-15
Ireland-16
South Africa(under 15 "with special consent")
Hong Kong-16
Japan-16
Denmark-15
Estonia-15
Sweden-under 18 with "special permission"
USA- every state in the union in 2011 allows marriages under age 16 with "permission" Freakin Massachussets as low as 12 for Crimony's sake and Arizona with no specified minimum! This is 2011 in USA!

This is right under everyone's nose.... today... right now...!

For a man in is older twenties and then thirties to mess around with young teenage girls, under the rube of plural marriage, is as foul then as it is now.

That's the popular notion in 2011 and has been for about the last 40 years or so. There's still thousands of years of previous human living that must be considered entirely degenerate by 2011 standards. Please consider context.

Of course it is a deflection when you are trying to compare JS to the 19th century norms, then when it does not wor, try to compare him to Joseph and Mary! The majority of folks back then did not make it out of their thirties, many not out of their twenties.

Truth, look up "perspective" and then apply to your argumentation.

I'm afraid the generation gaps of 1000 years are not as great as you think. People and cultures don't justify wrongdoing by saying it was part of the culture and times. People still knew right from wrong as much then as they do now. Don't assume we're so much better and smarter than our grandparents.

Perspective is my close friend in this discussion and your enemy. Another reason why people got married earlier as life expectancy was lower but really just a minor contributing factor. And the label "life expectancy" is a modern term. They never used it. They all expected to live past 40 but many didn't. The girls and their parents didn't discuss a life expectancy of 40 I'm sure. They just said , God wants you to be a mother as soon as you are able. That's much more what the conversation was like rather than, "hurry up the clock is ticking and you're an old maid at 18." The major contributing factor was readiness and consent. And always has been.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Your use of "presentism" as a defense falls short. I can judge Hitler by today's standards, I can judge JS by today's standards, I can judge Pontius Pilate by today's standards, by which all are judged with a righteous judgement.

Show us the great majority of women who said that "God wants you to be a mother".

What strange world do you live in, Truth?

A 14 year old cannot consent, Truth, and a parent who consents to a marriage like that enable a Warren Jeffs or a Joseph Smith.

You know better.

 

[JoeB131]

[ That Joseph Smith was an impossibly brilliant con-man or He really was a prophet of God. Again, if you Joe, are the opposite of all the insults you've hurled at Smith and the rest of us, why would you waste your time talking to such crazy people? Hmm.. cuz you just can't help fighting against the truth. You and I both know these words will haunt you the rest of your life despite your snide remarks in response. I feel sorry for you genuinely and it's a sad story that people like you can get to the point you're at. It's just too bad. I refuse from this point to jab or make fun of you in any way. I'm simply going to relay the words of God to you because there is nothing else that can help you..

The truth-

There is no God and there never was.
Joseph Smith was a slick con man who got what he had coming to him.
Your God is a savage bronze age sky pixie, whom I find truly laughable.

The only reason I worry about your sort is because crazy people with money and numbers can be dangerous. Adolf Hitler proved that pretty effectively.

I'm 100% certain life continues after your body dies. 100%.
And guess what... sexuality is as much a part of the next life as it is here. Why shouldn't it be? There's nothing to be ashamed of? God created sex and set the boundaries for it's use so that we could enjoy it to the fullest. Quite secure indeed.

Well, yeah, I can see why Mormons are afraid of Porn. The wouldn't want their oppressed women to see what a real man looks like in the buff, rather than their pasty-faced white-shirted sissy-boys.

..... Case in point, the Book of Mormon is obviously true. The evidences spiritually and physically are mountainous. .... But since the Book of Mormon is a solid rock of offense to skeptics, That remains the foundation of our argument, not the Kinderhook Plates.....

Or he was just so deluded he started believing his own BS. You have to put the BS in context. When Smith was makig up his BS, they were just discovering the evidence of the Mound building civilization. And of course, being a lot of racist white crackers, they refused to believe the indiginous people had built these things. (In their defence, their civilization had been decimated by disease and the collapse of trade, going through a dark age.) So a bunch of screwball "Great White Father" myths about Vikings, Hebrews or Phonecians building them were in Vogue. SMith built his BS off that. Outright plagarism, actually, of someone else's book.

But here's the thing- Where is the evidence of the Nephite Civilization? I mean outside of the Book of Mormon. Where are the ruins, the artifacts, the tales from other civilizations about these people? If you take the BoM seriously, the Nephite/Lamanite civilization would have been as widespread in America as Rome was in Europe, and lasted about as long. Today, we know the Romans existed by the remnents- Ruins, coins, statues, artifacts, literature, language, and so on. While there were a bunch of claims of "proof" of the Nephites in the 19th century, no one is trying to piss up that rope today. And most of the artifacts, such as the Kinderhook tablets or the "Michigan Relics", have been proven to be fakes. But Mormons for a time claimed they were real, until better science proved otherwise.

Salamander letter? ok just for fun only, because that can't be taken seriously. Now that's what you call a hoax.

Exactly, guy, it was a hoax. But the Mormon Church (through intermediaries) paid top dollar for it and other Hoffman fakes because heck, it might be true. In fact, until Hoffman's rather clever method of forging was uncovered - USING SCIENCE, NOT FAITH- the Mormon Church even tried to reconcile the Salamander Letter and his other forgeries with their doctrine.

Usually, not always. but God is a complicated God. He's always been around so he surely does things differently than the rest of us.

Actually, there's little evidence than Yahweh was worshipped earlier than 3000 years ago or so.

Unlike those fiends you've mentioned, He knew what he was saying was true and he never asked his followers to kill themselves either.

Well, that's a pity...

Well I don't know enough about Hubbard to call him a fiend so I'll just retract that label from him. I know he started Scientology right? But with regard to Smith. You could hardly call him 2 bit even if he was really hustling people. He wrote things, he held sermons, he was persecuted, he set up an entire infrastructure an led a faith of many thousands which has grown in to many millions of people who donate of their time and money to help the poor and suffering as well as practice their religion.

A scam is a scam. If your argument is that Mormonism is growing (it isn't) then by that logic, Islam must be the true faith, as it is the fastest growing religion out there today.

Koresh and Jones were true criminals who operated on a small scale. Your research is severely lacking. Major fail on the comparison. and it's impossible to believe something you know to be a lie. You may still live by those principals but you always know it's untrue. So either you are one of 3 things. A liar, committed to living the lie, deluded and committed to living that life because you think it's true, false as it may be or..... A true prophet of God. Joseph Smith was obviously, to the true researcher, a true prophet of God.

He was a two-bit, child molesting con-artist that your church is trying to Bowlderize today by whitewashing his shadier aspects. You know, like taking his racism out of the book of Mormon, where he claimed the Lamanites were cursed with dark skin.

Sorry, man, Dark skin is beautiful...

You're still wrong. The outlawing of polygamy wasn't until the 1890s in the USA. That's why it wasn't illegal. You either just lied or didn't do your research. Which is it?

Marriage laws are determined state by state. There is no "Federal" marriage law. In Illinois, in 1844, it was illegal to be married to more than one woman.

that goes to show your epic ignorance. Killers kill because they want to achieve a goal, or for the pure pleasure of it. Hitler was a goal oriented killer. He knew the commandment in bold writing in the Bible "thou shalt not kill"... You think he never read that passage. gimme a break...

So has every other bible thumping asshole who has killed heretics, witches, unbelievers, or guys who just thought that Jesus didn't turn into wafers.

I heard someone mention this before but they still failed to show me the scripture ordering the death of babies.

How about the following...

Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones. -- Psalm 137:9

How about drowing every baby in the world in the flood. Or burning all the babies in Sodom and Gomorrah. (Well. they were probably gay babies, so they had it coming!) Or ordaining the deaths of David and Bathshebas baby? How about the sacrifice of Jephthah's daughter or the Mauling of children who mocked Elija's bald head?

God does have his reasons. They are often time specific and for a purpose. You'll notice how the command for killing those people hasn't been in effect for over 2000 years. The command is to invite all to come to God and invite all to be cleansed of sin through the atonement of Christ. Yes, God makes the rules.. He's God and if you don't want to follow him then that's just you being unwilling to follow anyone else's tune but your own. You're so wrapped up in yourself. You are probably your own favorite person I bet.

Guy, it isn't about me, it's about the absurdity that you believe in, and it looks like I hit a sore spot.

And I didn't even have to mention the MOuntain Meadow Massacre this time. A great day in Mormon history...

 

[JoeB131]

Your use of "presentism" as a defense falls short. I can judge Hitler by today's standards, I can judge JS by today's standards, I can judge Pontius Pilate by today's standards, by which all are judged with a righteous judgement.

Show us the great majority of women who said that "God wants you to be a mother".

What strange world do you live in, Truth?

A 14 year old cannot consent, Truth, and a parent who consents to a marriage like that enable a Warren Jeffs or a Joseph Smith.

You know better.

Hey, Jake the Fake, do you really want people like Truthsweeper here to run the country when Romney gets elected? I don't.

 

[hipeter924]

Not Hitler again, how many recorded speeches have to be recited before people realize that he was publicly a roman catholic, and privately a part of a Nazi cult religion (that virtually all the top officials believed in) or a Christianity of his own making. He certainly wasn't atheist, agnostic or a catholic. He killed everyone who disagreed with him, many catholics, agnostics and atheists were sent to concentration camps.

Adolf Hitler's religious views - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Nazism and occultism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Truthspeaker]

Your use of "presentism" as a defense falls short. I can judge Hitler by today's standards, I can judge JS by today's standards, I can judge Pontius Pilate by today's standards, by which all are judged with a righteous judgement.

Show us the great majority of women who said that "God wants you to be a mother".

What strange world do you live in, Truth?

A 14 year old cannot consent, Truth, and a parent who consents to a marriage like that enable a Warren Jeffs or a Joseph Smith.

You know better.

Nice dodge... what I'm saying is that if you can judge Hitler and Joseph Smith by todays standards, then you can judge anyone of the past by today's standards. Back to Mary and Joseph. Why don't you call him a pedophile for marrying a girl who was 12 or 13 at the time. 13-14 by the time she had sex with him following the recovery from her first childbirth. Just common custom of the day.
Don't skirt that issue now.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Hey, Jake the Fake, do you really want people like Truthsweeper here to run the country when Romney gets elected? I don't.

Well, Joe the Slow, I would rather have a TruthSpeaker to run the country than someone like you, who would endanger us all with your vapid nonsense.

 

[Truthspeaker]

The truth-

There is no God and there never was.
Joseph Smith was a slick con man who got what he had coming to him.
Your God is a savage bronze age sky pixie, whom I find truly laughable.

The only reason I worry about your sort is because crazy people with money and numbers can be dangerous. Adolf Hitler proved that pretty effectively.

Ok so i see you've at least changed your stance on Smith being crazy. We've now upgraded to slick, and con man. At least we've established his mental competency and beyond that we've at least confirmed in your eyes that he was officially a smart guy. For it's impossible to be a con-man without being smart. That's progress.

Well, yeah, I can see why Mormons are afraid of Porn. The wouldn't want their oppressed women to see what a real man looks like in the buff, rather than their pasty-faced white-shirted sissy-boys.

Our women are officially per capita the most educated women of any religion. and while I might be pasty and white underneath. my wife is well pleased with the buff and everything else. Also all our membership in Africa and South America would laugh at your statement. Ask our women. they could have anyone else they want, but they choose us thank God.

Or he was just so deluded he started believing his own BS.

Ok so now he's deluded again? Which is it? Smart con man or deluded wacko? You can't be both.

You have to put the BS in context. When Smith was makig up his BS, they were just discovering the evidence of the Mound building civilization. And of course, being a lot of racist white crackers, they refused to believe the indiginous people had built these things.

My my, "racist white crackers"? That's kinda like saying "racist black *******" isn't it? It goes both ways. How can you accuse someone of being racist and then make a racial slur all in the same sentence? Your credibility continues to decline.

(In their defence, their civilization had been decimated by disease and the collapse of trade, going through a dark age.) So a bunch of screwball "Great White Father" myths about Vikings, Hebrews or Phonecians building them were in Vogue. SMith built his BS off that. Outright plagarism, actually, of someone else's book.

Man you've really been fed a line... Your information is not only grossly innacurate but it's downright ignorant.
Not only did we absolutely ascribe the ancient ruins of the americas to the natives of america, we named them to be of the House of Israel, God's chosen people, another idea i'm sure you hate. So at least get your facts straight before your image.... well I don't think it can get any worse... just get your facts straight ok? Direct quote from Joseph Smith proving my point.
"We feel great pleasure in laying before our readers the following interesting account of the Antiquities of Central America, which have been discovered by two eminent travellers who have spent considerable labor, to bring to light the remains of ancient buildings, architecture &c., which prove beyond controversy that, on this vast continent, once flourished a mighty people, skilled in the arts and sciences, and whose splendor would not be eclipsed by any of the nations of Antiquity—a people once high and exalted in the scale of intelligence, but now like their ancient buildings, fallen into ruins."

But here's the thing- Where is the evidence of the Nephite Civilization?

There is ample evidence. Everywhere in South and North America that great civilizations dated to the times mentioned in the Book of Mormon which fit exactly as described.

I mean outside of the Book of Mormon. Where are the ruins, the artifacts, the tales from other civilizations about these people?

All you have to do is TRY and look. Just a little effort on your part would yield treasure troves on the subject. But I think you're afraid of such things. I'll give you 5 examples for starters. These examples are all insignificant compared to personal prayer and revelation which you are free to access any time:

1. Stella 5 a depiction of the tree of life described in 1st Nephi
Izapa Stela 5 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
2. The Lachish Letters- this one will really open your eyes. Warning! serious intelligence, scholarship and honesty required to read document.
Hugh W. Nibley: "Dark Days in Jerusalem The Lachish Letters and the Book of Mormon"
3. Geography of Arabian penninsula.. Wow!
Mormon Truth and Book of Mormon Evidences: Not Proof, But Indications of Plausibility
4. Mesoamerican hard evidences
Mormon Truth and Book of Mormon Evidences: Not Proof, But Indications of Plausibility
5: Hebrew ancient writing found in America. This is incontrovertible fact...
ancient hebrew in america - Bing Images

6. I know I only said five but this was just too cool to leave out. Critics who claimed that there were no elephants in Meso America in book of Mormon times in contrast to the Book of Mormon's claims ignore such things as this.
http://www.the-book-of-mormon.com/elephants.jpg

If you take the BoM seriously, the Nephite/Lamanite civilization would have been as widespread in America as Rome was in Europe, and lasted about as long. Today, we know the Romans existed by the remnents- Ruins, coins, statues, artifacts, literature, language, and so on. While there were a bunch of claims of "proof" of the Nephites in the 19th century, no one is trying to piss up that rope today. And most of the artifacts, such as the Kinderhook tablets or the "Michigan Relics", have been proven to be fakes. But Mormons for a time claimed they were real, until better science proved otherwise.

How bout all the cool stuff I just showed you.. btw, that ain't all I got brutha. I can show you mountains more but it won't mean a thing to you if you're close minded.

Exactly, guy, it was a hoax. But the Mormon Church (through intermediaries) paid top dollar for it and other Hoffman fakes because heck, it might be true. In fact, until Hoffman's rather clever method of forging was uncovered - USING SCIENCE, NOT FAITH- the Mormon Church even tried to reconcile the Salamander Letter and his other forgeries with their doctrine.

bottom line the church didn't pay a dime for it. Some member of the church did because they were curious and had expendable income but it was proven a fake an i still don't understand your point.

Actually, there's little evidence than Yahweh was worshipped earlier than 3000 years ago or so.

There's enough and btw, it means nothing.

Well, that's a pity...

You are one bloodthirsty person.

A scam is a scam. If your argument is that Mormonism is growing (it isn't) then by that logic, Islam must be the true faith, as it is the fastest growing religion out there today.

uhh.. last I checked it is crowing rather rapidly. But that doesn't mean a thing as to the truth of anything. My only point in drawing attention to the scale of our church is that Joseph Smith operated on a much larger scale than the two bit criminals you compared him with.

He was a two-bit, child molesting con-artist that your church is trying to Bowlderize today by whitewashing his shadier aspects. You know, like taking his racism out of the book of Mormon, where he claimed the Lamanites were cursed with dark skin.

Sorry, man, Dark skin is beautiful...

Sure we think so today, but cultures change. A lot of cultures in olden days and still in current days, ignorantly view dark skin as ugly. Can't argue that that is the perception. I don't agree with it but that's how a large portion of the world thinks.
You're entitled to your erroneous opinion about smith, but I'm entitled to correct your erroneous statements. Namely racism in the book of mormon.:
2 Nephi 26:33
33 For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile.

That doesn't sound like racism to me there.... guy....

Now the Nephites and Lamanites, especially at the time of the Lamanite cursing were just a few years removed from daily life in Israelite Jerusalem in 600BC, A very Jewish, very Hebrew culture. In those days and times, I'd imagine there was a lot of prejudice towards black people. Culturally they thought black was ugly. It is what it is... So because the Lamanites had already established that they hated Nephites and were trying to kill them and rob them and destroy their religion, God caused a curse of black skin to come on them so that they would not mix. It is also clear to an intelligent person that this was an isolated small group of people and had nothing to do with people of African descent.

You will read later that this very same curse was permanently lifted in the book of 4th Nephi right around 200 AD.

So again... you need to read and learn fact. Please try.

Marriage laws are determined state by state. There is no "Federal" marriage law. In Illinois, in 1844, it was illegal to be married to more than one woman.

Fail... The "Manifesto" document was the first legislation outlawing polygamy. This affected not only LDS members but the lives of Indiginous tribes were also dictated to as well.

So has every other bible thumping asshole who has killed heretics, witches, unbelievers, or guys who just thought that Jesus didn't turn into wafers.

Well, first understand the real Christians from the fake ones who kill but claim to be. Those people are not to be tolerated.


How about the following...

Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones. -- Psalm 137:9

I believe this was a song written either by David or written during this time. It is obviously not inspired of God. Not everything in the Bible is inspired of God. It is a great book of spiritual guidance but contains errors in translation and includes passages that surely could not be condoned by God and in such cases the author is writing on his own. This seems to be one of those cases. It's not a problem for me that the Bible has errors because I know exactly how the Bible came to be put together. It was arranged by a Pagan emperor who forced various Christian leaders who were also doctrinally confused after the Apostacy. The Bible contains the Word of God but also contains a select few points that are clearly not the word of God.

It's amazing we even have anything left of the Bible at all. I really wish we could have all the documents in their original form and in Chronological order as well.

How about drowing every baby in the world in the flood.

The Babies were the ones who had it easy in the flood situation. They got to go to Heaven straightaway. The only ones who really would have been punished eternally after the flood were the truly wicked people who fought against God, fully knowing that he did exist. I wouldn't put you in this category. I'd put you in the category of the ignorant and angry.

Or burning all the babies in Sodom and Gomorrah. (Well. they were probably gay babies, so they had it coming!)

Man you really must have us confused with Bible thumping hellfire and brimstone imposters from the Bible Belt.
We're not that guy...
All small children who die are immediately exhalted to heaven and their bodies will be resurrected and will receive eternal joy and live forever in happiness.
Also there is no such thing as a gay baby.

Or ordaining the deaths of David and Bathshebas baby?

Where is this found. I'd like to read the context.

How about the sacrifice of Jephthah's daughter or the Mauling of children who mocked Elija's bald head?

show me the scripture and then I'll deal with it. Please post links to your statements as a matter of good form in debate.

Guy, it isn't about me, it's about the absurdity that you believe in, and it looks like I hit a sore spot.

Well obviously my religion is a large part of my identity and any sane person who truly believes in what he stands for should speak out in defense of the attack. You get that right?
If you're going to make claims about us, then you need to be prepared to substantiate those claims when questioned.

And I didn't even have to mention the MOuntain Meadow Massacre this time. A great day in Mormon history...

Easy one.. since you clearly are ignorant of the issue being dealt with ad nauseum on this thread for 2 years. Neverless I'll rehash it every time forever as long as people are willing to learn knowledge.
What about the MMM have we not discussed on here yet?

 

[JoeB131]

YOu poke a Latter-Day Zombie enough times, it goes right into the crazy...

- Ok so i see you've at least changed your stance on Smith being crazy. We've now upgraded to slick, and con man. At least we've established his mental competency and beyond that we've at least confirmed in your eyes that he was officially a smart guy. For it's impossible to be a con-man without being smart. That's progress....Ok so now he's deluded again? Which is it? Smart con man or deluded wacko? You can't be both.

Quite the contrary, he can be both and he was. I think he was a slick con-man early in his career, but probably started believing his own bullshit by the time he was mercifully put out of his misery by the Carthage mob. Kind of Like L. Ron Hubbard. Early in his career, when he was telling his fellow Sci-Fi writers how he could make up a fake religion and get stupid people to make him rich, he knew it was a scam. By the end of it when he was getting sex from teenage girls on his boat, hiding from numerous governments... yeah, he was actually getting high on his own supply. And so was Smith.

My my, "racist white crackers"? That's kinda like saying "racist black *******" isn't it? It goes both ways. How can you accuse someone of being racist and then make a racial slur all in the same sentence? Your credibility continues to decline.

No, I'm a white guy who realizes that the stain on our honor as a nation will continue until we acknowledge our own evil. To the point, we slaughtered the native Americans (I am also part Cherokee) and people like Smith just couldn't abide by the thought that Native Americans accomplished great things. So he made up these fairy stories about Hebrews in the Americas. And he didn't even make them up, he plagarized them from Rev. Solomon Spalding's unpublished novel, Manuscript found. There's even a part about golden plate in there.

Now ignoring LDS archeology, which has all the credibility of "Creation Science", let's move on to this..

bottom line the church didn't pay a dime for it. Some member of the church did because they were curious and had expendable income but it was proven a fake an i still don't understand your point.

The Church never does anything directly. Like when it tells the faithful Zombies to empty out their bank accounts to fund fights against gay marriage, and they all do so. But, yeah, the thing was, the Salamander Letter came out, and instead of declaring it a fake THAT DAY, they tried to intrepret it, because Smith was into enough weird shit they'd spent the last century trying to wallpaper over.

You are one bloodthirsty person.

Yes, I am.

Well, first understand the real Christians from the fake ones who kill but claim to be. Those people are not to be tolerated.

I don't tolerate any of you people.

The Babies were the ones who had it easy in the flood situation. They got to go to Heaven straightaway. The only ones who really would have been punished eternally after the flood were the truly wicked people who fought against God, fully knowing that he did exist. I wouldn't put you in this category. I'd put you in the category of the ignorant and angry.

An omnipotent being whose "go to" answer is to drown all the babies (not to mention all the puppies and kitties, too!) isn't worthy of anything but my contempt. Really. That was the best solution he could come up with? Besides all the scientific absurdity of the Flood Story, I think it tells a lot about the God the Hebrews worshipped.

show me the scripture and then I'll deal with it. Please post links to your statements as a matter of good form in debate.

2 Samuel 12:1 And the LORD sent Nathan unto David. (skip the dumb parable part)

12:7 And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul;
12:8 And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things."
12:9 Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.

12:14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die. 12:15 And Nathan departed unto his house. And the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife bare unto David, and it was very sick.
12:18 And it came to pass on the seventh day, that the child died. And the servants of David feared to tell him that the child was dead: for they said, Behold, while the child was yet alive, we spake unto him, and he would not hearken unto our voice: how will he then vex himself, if we tell him that the child is dead?

That's the God you worship. He killed David's baby for what David did. Sick! I decided to have no part of him a long time ago.

Well obviously my religion is a large part of my identity and any sane person who truly believes in what he stands for should speak out in defense of the attack. You get that right? If you're going to make claims about us, then you need to be prepared to substantiate those claims when questioned.

And that's your problem. Belonging to a religion is letting lesser intellects do your thinking for you. I figured this out when I was 10. The problem with you Mormons is that when people get past all the fakey nice act you all put on and realize the crazy bullshit you all believe, you get pretty upset when we point out it's bullshit.

Easy one.. since you clearly are ignorant of the issue being dealt with ad nauseum on this thread for 2 years. Neverless I'll rehash it every time forever as long as people are willing to learn knowledge.
What about the MMM have we not discussed on here yet?

Guy, I don't have the time and patience to rehash 500 pages of Mormon apologetics to get to the point where you claim it was okay the LDS slaughtered those people and Brigham Young didn't know diddly about it.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Joe the Slow clearly indicates why atheism rots the brain: inability to think clearly.

 

[Monnagonna]

Joe the Slow clearly indicates why atheism rots the brain: inability to think clearly.

Joe's handing Truth his hat over and over...

 

[JakeStarkey]

Truth has no problem handling the likes of a Joe the Slow or you, monnagonna.

 

[JoeB131]

Truth has no problem handling the likes of a Joe the Slow or you, monnagonna.

Why don't you and Truth get married. You'd be a cute couple...

 

[JakeStarkey]

Joe, Joe, Joe . . . sigh

 

[Avatar4321]

Do we really need the insults? I love talking about the Restoration of the Gospel. But the petty attacks are just pointless.

I want to edify and be edified. Not insult people. If you guys want a real discussion let me know. ill be holding back till then.