The thread where I make Democrats angry- why we lost in 2024!

[JoeB131]

Some good points Joey, but I must point out problems with your argument.

1. Joe Biden has always sucked. Thinking he was a good candidate for potus EVER, is dumb. In 1988 when he was caught lying and plagiarizing then forced to drop out, should have ended his political career. Amazed me the cocksucker gets reelected over and over, then VP, and then potus. WTF!

How do any of them get elected, by that standard? You can always point out a candidates flaws, and every year we bitch about "Lesser of two evils". (And, no third parties aren't a serious choice).

2. Bernie won the nomination in 2016 and 2020, if not for corrupt actions by your party’s leadership.

No, he really didn't. Bernie would have lost worse to Trump, because most American's aren't socialists. If I had a point 12 on this list, it's letting the crazy AOC/Commie Bernie wing have as much say as it did.

3. Kamala was given the nomination. She didn’t earn it. She was awful from day one and dumb Joe picked her only because she’s black and a woman. Great accomplishments.

Okay, as stated earlier, since the 22nd Amendment was put in, the VP has always had an inside track to the nomination. It would have been harder to justify NOT giving it to her, especially since anyone else, they could have challenged whether they could access the money that Biden had raised up to that point.

As for picking her for Veep in the first place, yes, every Veep pick is a decision to pander to and shore up a key constituency group. Vance was picked because he appealed to the white trash crowd. Pence was picked because he appealed to the Christian right. Biden was picked because he was a Washington insider. Cheney was picked because Bush was seen as light on foreign policy experience.

4. Your party’s leadership knew full well Genocide Joe was a demented fucker, yet they played along until it was too late for voters to choose. Then appointed K. Corruption!!!!

Did they, though? Or did they just not have the heart to pull the rug out from underneath them? I compare it to when a family has to finally admit Nana shouldn't have the car keys. There's often a long drawn out fight in the family.

And as much as I disdain our policy towards Israel/Palestine, let's be blunt here. The Zionist Lobby owns Washington. Bibi was going to get his bombs no matter who was in. If you were a Michigan Arab who voted for Trump or stayed home in November, how are you better off now?

5. Now it’s time to eliminate the D Party altogether. They are a corrupt criminal operation, much like the R Party.

Again, come up with a third party that isn't an absolute joke, and you might have a point.

 

[gipper]

How do any of them get elected, by that standard? You can always point out a candidates flaws, and every year we bitch about "Lesser of two evils". (And, no third parties aren't a serious choice).



No, he really didn't. Bernie would have lost worse to Trump, because most American's aren't socialists. If I had a point 12 on this list, it's letting the crazy AOC/Commie Bernie wing have as much say as it did.



Okay, as stated earlier, since the 22nd Amendment was put in, the VP has always had an inside track to the nomination. It would have been harder to justify NOT giving it to her, especially since anyone else, they could have challenged whether they could access the money that Biden had raised up to that point.

As for picking her for Veep in the first place, yes, every Veep pick is a decision to pander to and shore up a key constituency group. Vance was picked because he appealed to the white trash crowd. Pence was picked because he appealed to the Christian right. Biden was picked because he was a Washington insider. Cheney was picked because Bush was seen as light on foreign policy experience.




Did they, though? Or did they just not have the heart to pull the rug out from underneath them? I compare it to when a family has to finally admit Nana shouldn't have the car keys. There's often a long drawn out fight in the family.

And as much as I disdain our policy towards Israel/Palestine, let's be blunt here. The Zionist Lobby owns Washington. Bibi was going to get his bombs no matter who was in. If you were a Michigan Arab who voted for Trump or stayed home in November, how are you better off now?



Again, come up with a third party that isn't an absolute joke, and you might have a point.

Your making excuses for a criminal political party. Not a good look.

Thinking voters should accept corrupt politicians like Genocide Joe because they all do it, is dumb and perpetuates the problem.

Yes Bernie had the nomination stolen from him twice. FACT!

As you state, the Zionist lobby owns DC. This is obvious and an understatement. As such, there is no way dumb Joe or crazy K would do anything to acquire the Arab vote. Had they done so, the Zionist billionaires would have pulled all campaign funding and had their owned media outlets savage them.

 

[Lesh]

Your making excuses for a criminal political party. Not a good look.

Thinking voters should accept corrupt politicians like Genocide Joe because they all do it, is dumb and perpetuates the problem.

Yes Bernie had the nomination stolen from him twice. FACT!

As you state, the Zionist lobby owns DC. This is obvious and an understatement. As such, there is no way dumb Joe or crazy K would do anything to acquire the Arab vote. Had they done so, the Zionist billionaires would have pulled all campaign funding and had their owned media outlets savage them.

Bernie? Fact?

You need to look up the definitions of “fact” and “opinion”.

You seem really confused

 

[JoeB131]

2. Harris fine and there as no alternative

I think Newsom or Whitmer or Pritzker would have been much stronger candidates. There was the issue of them being able to access Joe Biden's money, of course.

5. Women dropped the ball. No idea why but they certainly did

I'm not sure if they dropped the ball, or if the Democrats just went to far on this issue.

Most support a woman's right to choose, but don't think much of a woman who uses abortion as just another form of birth control. Bill Clinton said it best (even if he probably didn't mean it) "Abortion should be safe, legal, and rare!" Democrats need to put more emphasis on the rare part by promoting alternatives (contraception, paid family leave, universal health care).

6. Puerto Ricsns certainly screwed up. They ten to be heavy on he machismo and also antiabortion . You claim Harris didn’t have enough outreach to Asians? Maybe. She had one hundred days. Tough to cover all the bases on 100 days

But it was a base that needed to be covered. My wife showed me a post from WeChat where a female Chinese pastor was sending out a letter praising Trump and calling Harris a "vile woman". (Again, this was in Mandarin, so translations might be imprecise.)

As for Hispanics, I think we often make the mistake of lumping them into a monolithic group when they aren't. Cuban Americans are very conservative, on balance, because they've escaped Communism. Mexicans tend to be a little more liberal, due to Democratic attitudes towards immigration. Puerto Ricans didn't screw up so much as Democrats didn't really appeal to them. They are already citizens, why would they care about the status of Mexicans or Venezuelans?

7. Immigration is not a crisis its propaganda tool. Republicans are good at propaganda

I kind of have to disagree here. At current, we have a record 15.6% of the population that was not born here. It's never been this high throughout our history. While republican xenophobia is indeed repulsive, a lot of communities are struggling with issues like ESL, availability of housing, etc.

8. Inflation haven tamed. The messaging was the problem and that is again on Biden’s

The problem was even though inflation had gone down, people were still feeling it's effects. In some ways, high inflation is worse politically than high unemployment. If you aren't one of the 10% who get laid off, you might have anxiety, but you aren't effected. Everyone takes it on the chin with inflation.

I think a very telling figure looking at the polling data is that poorer people skewed GOP. Trump won people making less than 50K by 50-48. (Biden won this group 55-44)

He won people making between 50-100K by 52-46 (Biden won this group 57-42)

Harris won people making over 100K 51 to 47, while Biden lost this group 42 to 54.

9. There has to w a better way to deal with the trans issue. Republicans suck and used it cynically

I agree there has to be a better way. I think the thing is that we don't humanize trans people enough. Putting a man in a dress is still a way to get a cheap laugh.

But Trump was able to run the field on this one.

11. Palestine was a no win. There was no needle to thread.

The rest of the world didn't have a problem. The Israelis overreacted, and while they had initial sympathy after Oct 7th, that quickly melted away when people saw the horrors of Gaza. Biden should have either pushed for a cease fire, or just given Bibi everything he wanted and take it on the chin in Michigan. Instead he tried to have it both ways, and pleased no one.

 

[JoeB131]

Yes Bernie had the nomination stolen from him twice. FACT!

Where do you get that from? Bernie got less votes. He only did well in 2016 because he was a protest vote against Hillary, which went to his head that people love them some socialism now.

In 2020, Biden quickly made short work of him, and his performance in every state was far below what he did in 2016, even in Vermont.

As you state, the Zionist lobby owns DC. This is obvious and an understatement. As such, there is no way dumb Joe or crazy K would do anything to acquire the Arab vote. Had they done so, the Zionist billionaires would have pulled all campaign funding and had their owned media outlets savage them.

so right now, Trump is talking about Ethnically cleansing Gaza to make it into a resort and he's deporting college kids who even wrote articles about supporting Palestine. How are the Arabs better off now?

 

[gipper]

Where do you get that from? Bernie got less votes. He only did well in 2016 because he was a protest vote against Hillary, which went to his head that people love them some socialism now.

In 2020, Biden quickly made short work of him, and his performance in every state was far below what he did in 2016, even in Vermont.



so right now, Trump is talking about Ethnically cleansing Gaza to make it into a resort and he's deporting college kids who even wrote articles about supporting Palestine. How are the Arabs better off now?

As you must know, O got the other candidates to drop in 2020 promising favors, then supported Joe against Bernie. It was pure corruption to support the billionaire donors.

How were the Arab voters to know Don would be worse than Joe? They couldn’t support Joe. If you were them, would you have voted for Joe?

 

[Ghost of a Rider]

Since 99% of my posts make Republicans Angry, I thought I'd do a post where I antagonize Democrats with hard, cold truths. Because it seems to me most of the Democrat discussion is "We weren't radical enough!"

So here is my list, 11 reasons why Democrats got their asses handed to them in 2024.

1) Joe Biden – completely and utterly screwed his party. It should have been evident to everyone around him that, at 81, he didn’t have the acuity or stamina to wage a campaign against Trump. He maybe never did, but the unique nature of the 2020 election gave him a pass. In 2020, he promised to be a transitional president. A second term never should have been in the cards.

In any event, Biden should have withdrawn after the 2022 midterms, and the Democrats did better than they deserved to because Trump insisted on extreme MAGA candidates for winnable races. A vigorous primary campaign would have tempered the steel of the eventual nominee.


2) Kamala Harris – In one aspect, it’s easy to be sympathetic; she had to hop in and pick up a ball that had been fumbled. That said, she was a poor candidate. She was a weak candidate in 2020 when she dropped out before the primaries, and she did little to distinguish herself as Vice President. But the Democrats were painted into a corner. Passing over her to pick someone more electable would have been seen as an insult to women and minorities. Additionally, there was the issue of who could legally use the money that Biden had raised to that point.

Harris should have done a self-evaluation and realized that she probably wasn’t the best candidate. She didn’t. We got the result we should have expected.

3) Tim Walz- a lousy pick. He brought nothing to the table. Minnesota hasn’t gone Red since 1972. If the Democrats are seriously fighting for MN, they need to rethink their party. Shapiro, Warnock, anyone who could have helped in a Swing state would have been better.

4) The Corporate Media didn’t do its job- The Corporate Media has this weird symbiotic relationship with Trump. They know he’s repulsive, but he’s good for ratings. He’s reality TV incarnate, normalizing lousy behavior because it’s entertaining. Joe Biden could look a bit confused trying to find the exit, and you’d get speculation about his mental acuity. Trump could rant about Haitians eating cats and Arnold Palmer’s….er… attributes, and nope, nothing to see here.

5) Abortion wasn’t the magic bullet – The initial shock of Dobbs probably saved the Democrats from worse results in 2022, but it was a hand Harris overplayed. Most Americans are ambivalent about abortion. They don’t think it should be illegal, but they don’t like it much, either. Making it the centerpiece of your campaign was a bad idea.

6) Taking Asians and Hispanics for granted – This is the untold story of 2024. Trump didn’t improve his numbers with white voters. He lost a percentage point among them. He only slightly improved his standing with black voters. The two big groups that he gained were Hispanics (+14) and Asians (+6), despite the toxic and racist language coming from Trump on Immigration.

Part of the reason was that the Harris team took them for granted, whereas Trump made genuine outreach. The other part of the problem is that immigration is affecting these communities, and muddled messaging didn’t help.

7) Immigration – Immigration has become a significant crisis, which Biden and Harris did not effectively manage. Part of the problem is immigrants figured out the Asylum loophole and abused the heck out of it. The other part of the problem is that Biden did very little to discourage immigration. While they deported more people than Trump did during his first term, they didn’t like to talk about it because they thought it wouldn’t play well with the Hispanic Community.

8) It’s the economy, stupid. The Biden economy was pretty good. Record stock market growth, record job growth, and low unemployment. The fly in the ointment, of course, was high inflation, driven by global commodities, labor shortages, and, yes, the Trillions in Stimulus That both Trump and Biden pumped into the economy to keep it afloat during COVID-19. The problem was, the Democrats did a poor job talking up the good stuff, and really weren't proactive enough on inflation, other than "Just let the fed handle it by putting home prices out of reach".

9) Transgender rights - Failure to Communicate. Democrats let Republicans run the table with this one. Every time the Republicans dragged out some college girl whining how she didn’t get a trophy, the Democrats should have brought out a transgender girl who transphobic people have abused. They didn’t do this, and the GOP got away with dehumanization.

10) Not holding Trump to account for COVID (or anything else!) – It is MIND-BOGGLING to me how Democrats weren’t reminding people at every step about how Trump mismanaged the COVID crisis (and subsequent recession).

11) Israel and Palestine- trying to thread the needle. This is where they should have taken a stand. Instead, they tried to please both sides and ended up pleasing neither one. So now you have these Arab-Americans in Dearborn, MI, who stayed home. How are things better for you now? ,

I actually agree with a lot of this but what immediately struck me was your criticism of Harris. When I said basically the same thing about her some months back, you called me a misogynist.

 

[Lesh]

I think Newsom or Whitmer or Pritzker would have been much stronger candidates. There was the issue of them being able to access Joe Biden's money, of course.



I'm not sure if they dropped the ball, or if the Democrats just went to far on this issue.

Most support a woman's right to choose, but don't think much of a woman who uses abortion as just another form of birth control. Bill Clinton said it best (even if he probably didn't mean it) "Abortion should be safe, legal, and rare!" Democrats need to put more emphasis on the rare part by promoting alternatives (contraception, paid family leave, universal health care).



But it was a base that needed to be covered. My wife showed me a post from WeChat where a female Chinese pastor was sending out a letter praising Trump and calling Harris a "vile woman". (Again, this was in Mandarin, so translations might be imprecise.)

As for Hispanics, I think we often make the mistake of lumping them into a monolithic group when they aren't. Cuban Americans are very conservative, on balance, because they've escaped Communism. Mexicans tend to be a little more liberal, due to Democratic attitudes towards immigration. Puerto Ricans didn't screw up so much as Democrats didn't really appeal to them. They are already citizens, why would they care about the status of Mexicans or Venezuelans?




I kind of have to disagree here. At current, we have a record 15.6% of the population that was not born here. It's never been this high throughout our history. While republican xenophobia is indeed repulsive, a lot of communities are struggling with issues like ESL, availability of housing, etc.




The problem was even though inflation had gone down, people were still feeling it's effects. In some ways, high inflation is worse politically than high unemployment. If you aren't one of the 10% who get laid off, you might have anxiety, but you aren't effected. Everyone takes it on the chin with inflation.

I think a very telling figure looking at the polling data is that poorer people skewed GOP. Trump won people making less than 50K by 50-48. (Biden won this group 55-44)

He won people making between 50-100K by 52-46 (Biden won this group 57-42)

Harris won people making over 100K 51 to 47, while Biden lost this group 42 to 54.



I agree there has to be a better way. I think the thing is that we don't humanize trans people enough. Putting a man in a dress is still a way to get a cheap laugh.

But Trump was able to run the field on this one.



The rest of the world didn't have a problem. The Israelis overreacted, and while they had initial sympathy after Oct 7th, that quickly melted away when people saw the horrors of Gaza. Biden should have either pushed for a cease fire, or just given Bibi everything he wanted and take it on the chin in Michigan. Instead he tried to have it both ways, and pleased no one.

I think you’re wrong about Newsome
He would have been crushed by Trump because of his actions during COVID and because he was Governor of “lefty” California
Whitmer , while a very good candidate was somehow made into the devil incarnate by Trumpers because of the right wing attack on her life.

That makes no sense but it’s the reality of Trumper politics

Pritzker is a fine candidate on many ways but total unknown who would never have gotten any traction on 100 days

What people forget is that Trump got a lot of sympathy from that assassination attempt.

When that happened I looked at my wife and said “ He’s going to be re-elected”

Had Biden dropped out a year earlier… it might not have mattered. Hell if he had dropped out a year earlier that might not have happened. Who knows

But we are where we are.

The proof is now in the pudding

If Trump’s policies don’t crater the economy and Trump doesn’t get us into any stupid wars and if we don’t have another pandemic, Republicans are on a strong position

I would’ve hold my breath regarding those things

These people (Trump and the people around him) are seriously fucked up

 

[Lesh]

As you must know, O got the other candidates to drop in 2020 promising favors, then supported Joe against Bernie. It was pure corruption to support the billionaire donors.

How were the Arab voters to know Don would be worse than Joe? They couldn’t support Joe. If you were them, would you have voted for Joe?

In a New York Minute

 

[Mac-7]

This is actually compelling and well worded. Good on you.

The blind hogg…

 

[Lesh]

As Woody Allen once said, 90% of success is just showing up. Biden wasn't showing up for 2024.



Okay, let's do some speculation. Biden announces in 2022 he won't seek a second term, and specifically cites the demands of the job on a man his age. Since Trump is just as old (if he makes it the full four years, he'll be our oldest President) this makes it a valid issue.

Now, yes, a primary race is always a risk, but it frequently makes a candidate stronger. Look how much Obama was boosted by his campaign fight against Hillary.




Probably. Now here's the gut-check for Democrats. Do they let her run again in 2028, or do they say, "We really need to go with someone who can win."


What "ideal" are we talking about here? The right to use abortion as birth control? I get very frustrated with both sides in the abortion debate, because I think both sides are fairly dishonest. The Pro-Choice people just can't stop talking about rape and incest (which are rare) and the Pro-Life side can't stop talking about "Late Term" abortions, which are also rare.

I think abortion should be legal because outlawing it would be impractical (think Prohibition), but it's hardly something to be celebrated.

No one celebrates it.

Stop using their messaging

 

[JoeB131]

I actually agree with a lot of this but what immediately struck me was your criticism of Harris. When I said basically the same thing about her some months back, you called me a misogynist.

Um, you are a misogynist. And a racist.

We've already established this.

As you must know, O got the other candidates to drop in 2020 promising favors, then supported Joe against Bernie. It was pure corruption to support the billionaire donors.

I seem to remember it differently. What I remember was none of the other candidates seemed really credible. Bloomberg spent something like 50 million promoting himself and got nowhere. (And he would have been a disastrous candidate if he had still been around after Geo. Floyd was strangled.)

Again- going back to my point, the Veep will always have the inside track. This is why Vance will be the nominee in 2028, assuming Trump allows us to still have elections.

How were the Arab voters to know Don would be worse than Joe? They couldn’t support Joe. If you were them, would you have voted for Joe?

Oh, the rhetoric coming out of his mouth would be a good start.

 

[JoeB131]

I think you’re wrong about Newsome
He would have been crushed by Trump because of his actions during COVID and because he was Governor of “lefty” California
Whitmer , while a very good candidate was somehow made into the devil incarnate by Trumpers because of the right wing attack on her life.

That makes no sense but it’s the reality of Trumper politics

If Trump got a pass on Covid, then so would have Newsome. Newsome could have even been the guy who held Trump to account for his negligence during Covid.

Pritzker is a fine candidate on many ways but total unknown who would never have gotten any traction on 100 days

Pritzker is what Trump wishes he was.

What people forget is that Trump got a lot of sympathy from that assassination attempt.

When that happened I looked at my wife and said “ He’s going to be re-elected”

If two people hadn't died, I would have said the whole thing was a staged, reality TV stunt.

 

[JoeB131]

No one celebrates it.

Stop using their messaging

They don't?

Shout Your Abortion – Normalizing abortion and elevating safe paths to access, regardless of legality.

Shout Your Abortion is normalizing abortion and elevating safe paths to access, regardless of legality.

shoutyourabortion.com

We’re Thankful for Our Abortions

Many people who have abortions celebrate their experience. Here's why my colleagues and I at We Testify are thankful.

www.thenation.com

My point is, Americans are a lot more ambivilent about abortion than the Democrats think they are.

 

[Ghost of a Rider]

Um, you are a misogynist. And a racist.

We've already established this.

We have never discussed anything even remotely related to misogyny and you never called me a misogynist until I criticized Harris. You're full of shit.

 

[Kruska]

You are in denial like so many Dems. Dems will go right on losing until that changes.

Why am I supposedly, according to you, in denial??? I just told/gave you the reasons why Trump won the election.

 

[Lesh]

If Trump got a pass on Covid, then so would have Newsome. Newsome could have even been the guy who held Trump to account for his negligence during Covid.



Pritzker is what Trump wishes he was.



If two people hadn't died, I would have said the whole thing was a staged, reality TV stunt.

You think that Newsome would get the and “pass” that Trump got?

Trump NEVER pays the price for his actions.

You’re smarter than that.

Newsome would have gotten CRUSHED… both because he’s the Governor of California and because of his actions during COVID

 

[JoeB131]

You think that Newsome would get the and “pass” that Trump got?

Trump NEVER pays the price for his actions.

You’re smarter than that.

Newsome would have gotten CRUSHED… both because he’s the Governor of California and because of his actions during COVID

I think he would have faired better than Harris, and given it was only a 1.48% margin, that might have been all he needed.

 

[Lesh]

I think he would have faired better than Harris, and given it was only a 1.48% margin, that might have been all he needed.

Well we’ll never know. Personally I think Trump would have crucified him and even Dems would have been put off by his actions during Covid

If he runs in 2028 we’ll know better. I think we can do better

 

[JoeB131]

Well we’ll never know. Personally I think Trump would have crucified him and even Dems would have been put off by his actions during Covid

If he runs in 2028 we’ll know better. I think we can do better

If the Democrats were smart, they'd run someone like Beshear or Cooper.

Southern Governor seen as a moderate.

The vibe I'm getting from reading posts here and on other boards is the same vibe I saw in the 1980's, where idealogical purity trumped (no pun intended) electability, and we got the silly image of Dukakis in a tank.