The State of Palestine

[Marc39]

"In American and EU eyes, a Kosovar declaration of independence from Serbian sovereignty should be recognized even if Serbia does not agree.

"However, their attitude was radically different when Palestine declared independence from Israeli occupation on November 15, 1988[/].

You drinking, again?

Historian Bernard Lewis...

The Palestine entity, formally established and defined by Britain, was formaly abolished in 1948 with the termination of the Mandate.

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Islam-History-People-Events-Middle/dp/0812695186/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1288144935&sr=8-1]Amazon.com: Islam in History: Ideas, People, and Events in the Middle East (9780812695182): Bernard Lewis: Books[/ame]

 

[Ropey]

With fifty five Muslim countries, that's not much of an extension to this symbolic attempt to circumvent a peace process already proscribed and between negotiations.

To walk out and demand recognition? Maybe the Muslim countries and their supporters, but not the rest of the world who know there is no such thing as a Palestine today. That was then, this is now.

They are desirous to declare a state of Palestine without negotiating a peace settlement with Israel and you truly think that will happen? With over twenty thousand Hezbollah illegally stationed in the south of Lebanon, close to the Israeli border?

Peace talks? The only sound of those talks are coming from the wrong end. The back end... Literally and figuratively.

Good luck!

 

[Marc39]

With fifty five Muslim countries, that's not much of an extension to this symbolic attempt to circumvent a peace process already proscribed and between negotiations.

To walk out and demand recognition? Maybe the Muslim countries and their supporters, but not the rest of the world who know there is no such thing as a Palestine today. That was then, this is now.

They are desirous to declare a state of Palestine without negotiating a peace settlement with Israel and you truly think that will happen? With over twenty thousand Hezbollah illegally stationed in the south of Lebanon, close to the Israeli border?

Peace talks? The only sound of those talks are coming from the wrong end. The back end... Literally and figuratively.

Good luck!

The Pallies would do well not to bite the hand that feeds them with Israel the largest employer of Pallies and their largest trading partner, as well as the reason for security and prosperity in the West Bank.

Pallies have a history of making poor decisions, this is the latest.

 

[Ropey]

The Pallies would do well not to bite the hand that feeds them with Israel the largest employer of Pallies and their largest trading partner, as well as the reason for security and prosperity in the West Bank.

I agree. This is my main point on this page. Rather than dealing politically with the Israeli and without intermediaries, they attack the Jews personally and the Sovereign State of Israel.

Clearly they bite hands outstretched. This is why they still have nothing, beg continually for money, and after being offered a country over sixty years ago, still have no country. Consider this, if you will. It is Nineteen Forty Eight and both Jews and the Arabians (who now call themselves Palestinians, but who did not then and who are not genetically different than any other Arabians) are offered partitions of land.

The Arabians who call themselves Palestinians were not even asked by their own people if they wanted a country. The refusal did not come from the Arabians who now call themselves Palestinians. The refusal came from Jordan, Egypt and Syria along with Saudi Arabia. The refusal was clearly orchestrated, and Nasser in sixty seven stood up in the UN and clearly said that the Jews would be driven into the sea, (Genocide anyone)? and delete Israel with the result that they would have the entire area. Look up the partitions and see for yourself. Then the Arabians attacked Israel many times without any declaration of war. Why? They say we are at war until the Sovereign State of Israel is deleted. Now three major wars were initiated by Arabians and which Israel won completely and took land to buffer themselves from further attack. They could have had their country but chose death and destruction. They continue on in this vein.

Jordan and Egypt have made peace, and we now have Lebanon (Hezbollah backed by Iranian Shia) and Iran intent on starting war with Israel. They do not want peace. They want to delete Israel. Right of return and pre-sixty seven borders are simply another method to attempt a deletion of Israel.

Don't you think that the Israeli people understand this? I mean their lives are on the line. They know, and understand what they are up against.

So, for now, there is no state of Palestine and no state will be created without a peace fulfillment across the Middle East.

I say this will not happen until the upcoming war deals with these above mentioned Arabian machinations.

 

[Marc39]

The Pallies would do well not to bite the hand that feeds them with Israel the largest employer of Pallies and their largest trading partner, as well as the reason for security and prosperity in the West Bank.

I agree. This is my main point on this page. Rather than dealing politically with the Israeli and without intermediaries, they attack the Jews personally and the Sovereign State of Israel.

Clearly they bite hands outstretched. This is why they still have nothing, beg continually for money, and after being offered a country over sixty years ago, still have no country. Consider this, if you will. It is Nineteen Forty Eight and both Jews and the Arabians (who now call themselves Palestinians, but who did not then and who are not genetically different than any other Arabians) are offered partitions of land.

The Arabians who call themselves Palestinians were not even asked by their own people if they wanted a country. The refusal did not come from the Arabians who now call themselves Palestinians. The refusal came from Jordan, Egypt and Syria along with Saudi Arabia. The refusal was clearly orchestrated, and Nasser in sixty seven stood up in the UN and clearly said that the Jews would be driven into the sea, (Genocide anyone)? and delete Israel with the result that they would have the entire area. Look up the partitions and see for yourself. Then the Arabians attacked Israel many times without any declaration of war. Why? They say we are at war until the Sovereign State of Israel is deleted. Now three major wars were initiated by Arabians and which Israel won completely and took land to buffer themselves from further attack. They could have had their country but chose death and destruction. They continue on in this vein.

Jordan and Egypt have made peace, and we now have Lebanon (Hezbollah backed by Iranian Shia) and Iran intent on starting war with Israel. They do not want peace. They want to delete Israel. Right of return and pre-sixty seven borders are simply another method to attempt a deletion of Israel.

Don't you think that the Israeli people understand this? I mean their lives are on the line. They know, and understand what they are up against.

So, for now, there is no state of Palestine and no state will be created without a peace fulfillment across the Middle East.

I say this will not happen until the upcoming war deals with these above mentioned Arabian machinations.

Ironically, were it not for Israel, Pallies would have no chance for statehood. Why, you say? Because, in the aftermath of the collapse of the Ottoman Empire in World War I, had it not been for the Jews pressing the Allies for a homeland, "Palestine," which had been part of Syria for the 400 years of Ottoman rule, would have been part of the French Mandate for Syria. In fact, the French argued for keeping Syria intact and not severing "Palestine" for this very historical reason. Arabs in "Palestine" were not viewed separately from Arabs elsewhere as having a distinctive national identity.

Thus, were it not for the Jews, "Palestine" would be part of Syria and so-called Palestinians today would simply be Syrians.

Palestinians should give their heartfelt thanks to Jews. Lord knows the Arabs don't give a **** about them or their silly state.

 

[Ropey]

Lord knows the Arabs don't give a **** about them or their silly state.

They have been hijacked by extremism from day one. The fanatics Hamas adopted the Khartoum accord for their raison de etre. No Recognition of Israel. No negotiations with Israel and "NO PEACE WITH ISRAEL"!

Now with these proscribed tenets as only a few their charter statements it does not make sense to speak of peace with them and speaking of peace with a fragmented grouping does not make sense either.

In negotiation one must first must agree on a set of negotiating principles. Then the agreements upon the function and form of the negotiation format. Then you set a date for the beginning negotiations and move up the ladder. Some prefer to deal with the hard aspects first (Israeli) and some prefer to deal with the easiest aspects and leave the hard ones until later (Arabians). The problem with the second method is that familiarity breeds contempt, and already both sides clearly do not like each other. Therefore both sides must accept lines drawn by external influences and negotiations MUST be followed. The Arabians employ a method that gets the easier work done, so then they can storming out of meetings when the tough work comes. Let us see if they can beat this immature method and move to the hard work.

I personally doubt it. Why? I have never seen any history of them showing inclination towards peace. Even with Jordan and Egypt it had to come after a war where they were pretty much smashed.

The same with Japan and Germany. This is why I say peace in the ME will only come after a war that sickens both sides.

The Jews are pretty much already sickened, so it is clear what must be done.

 

[P F Tinmore]

BUENOS AIRES (AFP) – Argentina and Uruguay said Monday they were joining Brazil in recognizing an independent Palestinian state, earning praise from Palestinian officials but an immediate sharp rebuke from Israel.

Argentina, Uruguay to recognize Palestinian state - Yahoo! News

Who cares what Israel thinks. Israel is only in Palestine at the point of a gun.

 

[Marc39]

Lord knows the Arabs don't give a **** about them or their silly state.

They have been hijacked by extremism from day one. The fanatics Hamas adopted the Khartoum accord for their raison de etre. No Recognition of Israel. No negotiations with Israel and "NO PEACE WITH ISRAEL"!

Pallies have been hijacked by Islam, an ideology that has demonized Jews, and Christians and every other kafir [non-Musliim], since its inception 1400 years ago, resulting in rigid religious intolerance.

That said, though not well publicized, Israel has increasingly good relations with the Arab countries in the UAE and though Israeli-Turkish relations are currently frazzled, Turkey has nevertheless had diplomatic relations with Israel since 1949. One interesting result of tensions between Israel and Turkey is growing diplomatic relations between Israel and Greece.

 

[Ropey]

Who cares what Israel thinks. Israel is only in Palestine at the point of a gun.

Let us see what this attempt brings about. Then we can revisit this post of yours. Israel continues to build self defense devices and consolidate land while the Palestinians beg funds and demand to negotiate as the winners of every war they have actually lost.

Smart? OK, if you say so...

 

[Marc39]

Who cares what Israel thinks. Israel is only in Palestine at the point of a gun.

Winston Churchill...

Jews are in Palestine as of right and not on sufferance.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Who cares what Israel thinks. Israel is only in Palestine at the point of a gun.

Let us see what this attempt brings about. Then we can revisit this post of yours. Israel continues to build self defense devices and consolidate land while the Palestinians beg funds and demand to negotiate as the winners of every war they have actually lost.

Smart? OK, if you say so...

When did the Palestinians ever lose a war?

 

[Marc39]

Who cares what Israel thinks. Israel is only in Palestine at the point of a gun.

Let us see what this attempt brings about. Then we can revisit this post of yours. Israel continues to build self defense devices and consolidate land while the Palestinians beg funds and demand to negotiate as the winners of every war they have actually lost.

Smart? OK, if you say so...

When did the Palestinians ever lose a war?

When did so-called Palestinians ever in history have a state, including 400 years under Ottoman Muslim rule? That would be...never.

 

[Marc39]

Who cares what Israel thinks. Israel is only in Palestine at the point of a gun.

Let us see what this attempt brings about. Then we can revisit this post of yours. Israel continues to build self defense devices and consolidate land while the Palestinians beg funds and demand to negotiate as the winners of every war they have actually lost.

Smart? OK, if you say so...

When did the Palestinians ever lose a war?

They lost the '47 guerilla war.

Now, you know

 

[Marc39]

Who cares what Israel thinks. Israel is only in Palestine at the point of a gun.

Most Pallies would rather live in democratic Israel than in another IslamoNazi shithole

 

[P F Tinmore]

Let us see what this attempt brings about. Then we can revisit this post of yours. Israel continues to build self defense devices and consolidate land while the Palestinians beg funds and demand to negotiate as the winners of every war they have actually lost.

Smart? OK, if you say so...

When did the Palestinians ever lose a war?

They lost the '47 guerilla war.

Now, you know

When did they surrender? What was in the peace agreement? What are the agreed borders?

 

[Marc39]

When did the Palestinians ever lose a war?

They lost the '47 guerilla war.

Now, you know

When did they surrender? What was in the peace agreement? What are the agreed borders?

Muzzies don't surrender when they lose in war. They just get humiliated, walk away and whine 24/7 about the Zionists.

 

[P F Tinmore]

They lost the '47 guerilla war.

Now, you know

When did they surrender? What was in the peace agreement? What are the agreed borders?

Muzzies don't surrender when they lose in war. They just get humiliated, walk away and whine 24/7 about the Zionists.

I knew you would skate on this one.

 

[Marc39]

When did they surrender? What was in the peace agreement? What are the agreed borders?

Muzzies don't surrender when they lose in war. They just get humiliated, walk away and whine 24/7 about the Zionists.

I knew you would skate on this one.

Given your complete lack of any reputational points, you're skating on thin ice.

 

[Ropey]

Who cares what Israel thinks. Israel is only in Palestine at the point of a gun.

Let us see what this attempt brings about. Then we can revisit this post of yours. Israel continues to build self defense devices and consolidate land while the Palestinians beg funds and demand to negotiate as the winners of every war they have actually lost.

Smart? OK, if you say so...

When did the Palestinians ever lose a war?

The Arabians who call themselves Palestinians are at a continual state of war so every time they attack and find a response back, it is an attack of war and in defense of the attack. With death ratios of hundreds to one you can not think that they have won any of these excursions in the continuing war? Do you? Gaza looks like a homeland for them? That is a win?

This is why Israel stood up in the United Nations after the sixty seven war and declared that since Israel was in a "continual state of war" as declared by Nasser, they had the right of preeemption. He prefaced this by comparing Arabians and Israel as akin to the Roman and Persian empire which had been in almost continuous state of war for five hundred years and were willing to fight five hundred themselves. He had been stating this in speeches for two years

Clicky

Israel then stated that preemption would be Israel's right since it is in a constant state of war. Now Israel is in a constant state of war with the Palestinians who have reemphasized an accord that allows for no true negotiation with Israel and calls for it's destruction in an entirety.

Israel has proven willing and able to pre-empt. The OSIRAK reactor in Iraq, and the latest in Syria are proof but those are not wars, since the war was continual with Iraq as it is with Iran and the Arabians who call themselves Palestinians and who live in the West Bank and Gaza. They are symptoms of the war that Syria, Iran, Iraq, Saudi, Lebanon wages on Israel. Just as the Palestinians lose every time they attack Israel, and their attacks are part of the continual war they wage on Israel. Be clear, the response has always been greater, but they don't seem to get that. I

It seems you don't either. Kill ratios of many thousands to one are acceptable to you if Israel is destroyed?

Clicky

Article 51 is the self-defense clause that authorizes the use of pre-emptive force in the event a nation believed its security was being threatened.
Clicky

Every attack on Israel is a declared war attack. By their very own words.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Ropey,

My question was: "When did the Palestinians ever lose a war?"

Your response was: "The Arabians who call themselves Palestinians are at a continual state of war..."

Israel claims that it is in a "continual state of war"

The fact is that the conflict has been ongoing for about 100 years and has never ended. The war is not over. Nobody has won. Nobody has lost. Israel claims that it has won land in "defensive" wars, but how can it make that claim when the war has not been won? The wars Israel has had with countries outside of Palestine are irrelevant. Israel cannot win Palestinian land from Egypt or Jordan. It is not their land to lose.

Since Israel has not won anything yet, it has no land to put a border around. That is why to this day Israel has no borders.