The Science of Morality

[Votto]

No he isn't. Words mean things and there is no "universal" agreement on Jesus.

Jews and Muslins don't recognize Jesus as the son of god or as part of a triune god. Adherents to religions other than the Abrahamic religions have no belief that Jesus was divine.

I never said they all believed he was the Son of God, did I?

I said they all believe Jesus came from God.

Muslims believe Jesus to be a prophet from God, only, they believe God put some poor shmuck on the cross to die in his place.

Very odd.

Anyway, Jews obviously have the only issue here for obvious reasons.

So my assertion stands.

 

[ReinyDays]

I said they all believe Jesus came from God.

My understanding is that some Buddhists consider Jesus as a Buddha ... one who has attained enlightenment ... that's strange stuff for shore, but I agree with you that just about everyone respects Jesus ... just not as God Himself ...

Splitting hares is a bloody affair ...

 

[Blues Man]

I never said they all believed he was the Son of God, did I?

I said they all believe Jesus came from God.

Muslims believe Jesus to be a prophet from God, only, they believe God put some poor shmuck on the cross to die in his place.

Very odd.

Anyway, Jews obviously have the only issue here for obvious reasons.

So my assertion stands.

if they don't believe Jesus is god then what does it matter if they believe he lived? And I've only ever heard Muslims say Jesus was a prophet.

Jews call him a false prophet and non Abrahamic religions don't give a shit about Jesus

 

[scruffy]

Splitting hares is a bloody affair ...

Use politicians instead.

(I mean, as long as there's going to be blood anyway...)

 

[Thunderbird]

WOW.
I stand corrected...NOT.

So a single monk who is clearly not following his teachings represents all Buddhists?
Are you really that stupid?

Sure you are.

Since you're ignorant let me help...
Muslims in South Asia have been effectively committing "genocide" against Buddhists for refusing to convert.
See 200 years of Christian history for reference.
Some Buddhists are responding in kind.

AND

Buddhists make up a significant portion of Japan's populace. The choice to support the government at a time of war is no different than Catholics supporting Hitler or Easter Orthodox supporting Putin.
Still that convert or die thing.

You seem sub-literate and unable to absorb basic information.

It’s not a “single monk” committing the atrocities in Myanmar. Muslims are a small minority in Myanmar.

https://www.pulitzer.org/files/2014/international-reporting/reuters/04reuters2014.pdf

The author of Zen at War, Ichikawa Hakugen, himself a Buddhist, lists twelve characteristics of Buddhism which have contributed to Japanese militarism.

And let’s not forget the situation in Sri Lanka:

Violent Buddhist extremists are targeting Muslims in Sri Lanka

Fed by colonialism, civil war and online hate speech, Buddhist extremism in Sri Lanka has been on the march for decades.

theconversation.com

 

[Thunderbird]

How many?

And the Abrahamic god rid the earth of almost all life because he was pissed off.

I don't "like" any religions and if you have ever read any of my posts in the religion forum you would know I am extremely critical of Christianity and all other organized religions.

And thank you for asking a relevant question.

Well being can be a bit tough to nail down with an exact definition. It can be like the word health that way. It's a bit of a suitcase term.

But we can agree that some states of beings are far superior than others can't we? Can we agree that some societies are far better to live in than others? Can we agree that a life defined by uncertainty of survival, violence, hunger, pestilence and poverty is worse than another life where there is access to clean food, water, medical care education and a degree of physical safety?

We can then correlate those states using medicine, neuroscience, behavioral sciences and we can see what combinations of these different situations do to the person. IMO the best way to do that is the neuroscience avenue because everything about how we relate to the environment can be associated with a state of the brain and nervous system


Religious morality isn't concerned about this life it's focused on an empty promise of the afterlife.

And I'll say it again , the fact that humans even the most devout have chosen to ignore many of the divine moral commands in their own holy books is proof that humans can formulate a better way to live with each other than their own gods could envision.

Again your quarrel seems to be with Judaism, you reference the story of Noah’s Ark which is found in the Old Testament.

People differ about what constitutes “well-being”. For example some of your fellow anti-Christians have thought that mass murder was necessary for human advancement.

Mao's Great Famine

www.frankdikotter.com

Holodomor 1932-33: Famine genocide in Ukraine Information website

Holodomor (Ukrainian famine-genecide of 1932-33) information website featuring resources for both students and educators, survivor accounts, historical photos and information links to publications, books, articles, exhibits, and events related to the Holodomor.

holodomorct.org

Young Turks and the Armenian Genocide

The Young Turks came to power in the Ottoman Empire in 1909 and were the perpetrators of the Armenian Genocide.

www.armenian-genocide.org

I’ll ask again: Please tell me precisely which animals are “conscious beings”. And when exactly does a child in her mother’s womb become conscious?

You say: “Religious morality isn't concerned about this life it's focused on an empty promise of the afterlife.” This is an absurd and bigoted claim. Of course Christ taught that we should feed the hungry, look after the sick, etc.

Christianity and the Origins of Hospitals and Modern Medicine - Christian Research Institute

www.equip.org

Aren’t many atheists focused on the empty promise of a “worker’s paradise” that never arrives?

 

[Blues Man]

Again your quarrel seems to be with Judaism, you reference the story of Noah’s Ark which is of course found in the Old Testament.

People differ about what constitutes “well-being”. For example some of your fellow anti-Christians have thought that mass murder was necessary for human advancement.

Mao's Great Famine

www.frankdikotter.com

Holodomor 1932-33: Famine genocide in Ukraine Information website

Holodomor (Ukrainian famine-genecide of 1932-33) information website featuring resources for both students and educators, survivor accounts, historical photos and information links to publications, books, articles, exhibits, and events related to the Holodomor.

holodomorct.org

I’ll ask again: Please tell me precisely which animals are “conscious beings”. And when exactly does a child in her mother’s womb become conscious?

You say: “Religious morality isn't concerned about this life it's focused on an empty promise of the afterlife.” This is an absurd and bigoted claim. Of course Christ taught that we should feed the hungry, etc.

Christianity and the Origins of Hospitals and Modern Medicine - Christian Research Institute

www.equip.org

I have no quarrel with religion. It would be like having a quarrel with Zeus. And you Christians claim to worship the same god that Jews and Muslims do don't you? Therefore the god of the Old Testament is your god. Or are you telling me that you all worship a different god?



And that some people commit horrid crimes in not a proof that any gods are the moral authorities in the universe.

 

[Blues Man]

This topic is not about any specific religion but the thread is predictibly devolving into more religious apologetics.

So let me rephrase.

It is my position that rational humanism backed by scientific facts are is a far more reasonable foundation for morality than any religion.

 

[Thunderbird]

I have no quarrel with religion. It would be like having a quarrel with Zeus. And you Christians claim to worship the same god that Jews and Muslims do don't you? Therefore the god of the Old Testament is your god. Or are you telling me that you all worship a different god?



And that some people commit horrid crimes in not a proof that any gods are the moral authorities in the universe.

You do have a quarrel with religion. In fact you seem bigoted against religious folk. Is your bigotry necessary for human well being?

There is one God but people have different understandings of God. The Old Testament understanding is sometimes profound and sometimes primitive. For Christians the New Testament is paramount.

I think atheists, who lack a well established moral code, often become lost. And the longer a society goes without such a well established moral code the worse it gets.

 

[Thunderbird]

This topic is not about any specific religion but the thread is predictibly devolving into more religious apologetics.

So let me rephrase.

It is my position that rational humanism backed by scientific facts are is a far more reasonable foundation for morality than any religion.

What you are missing:

Many Christians are humanists.

Some atheists are enemies of humanism:

Will This Post Make Sam Harris Change His Mind About Free Will?

blogs.scientificamerican.com

People who proclaim their devotion to science and reason have committed some of the worst atrocities in human history.

Science describes the universe, it doesn’t tell us what is moral or immoral.

 

[Blues Man]

You do have a quarrel with religion. In fact you seem bigoted against religious folk. Is your bigotry necessary for human well being?

There is one God but people have different understandings of God. The Old Testament understanding is sometimes profound and sometimes primitive. For Christians the New Testament is paramount.

I think atheists, who lack a well established moral code, often become lost. And the longer a society goes without such a well established moral code the worse it gets.

Why ? Because I think religion is a poor authority for morality? The the morality of the most common religion in this country is actually quite barbaric? That the morality of Iron Age societies are not desirable today?

I have no quarrel with "religious folk". I have issues with organized religion claiming to be the authority on the morality of all human behavior and that there is some tacit agreement that these self proclaimed authorities are beyond reproach and never t o be criticized or questioned.

Rational humanism is and atheistic morality and it far outstrips religions morality. The fact that modern "religious folk" have discarded many of the divine moral decrees in their own holy books and has replaced them with better ones proves this.

Tell me do you think you should beat your child with a stick?
Do you think a woman who is not a virgin on her wedding night should be stoned to death?

Do you really think that anyone who does not worship the god you worship is evil and will suffer an eternity of torture for no crime other than being born on the wrong patch of dirt and never being taught that your religion is the only one?

 

[Blues Man]

What you are missing:

Many Christians are humanists.

People who proclaim their devotion to science and reason have committed some of the worst atrocities in human history.

Science describes the universe, it doesn’t tell us what is moral or immoral.

I'm not missing that.

YOU are missing the fact that Christians have actually replaced the moral laws of their god with far better ones. In doing so you are actually admitting that people can make better choices than your god did. Yet for some reason you still surrender moral authority to organized religion.

 

[Thunderbird]

Why ? Because I think religion is a poor authority for morality? The the morality of the most common religion in this country is actually quite barbaric? That the morality of Iron Age societies are not desirable today?

I have no quarrel with "religious folk". I have issues with organized religion claiming to be the authority on the morality of all human behavior and that there is some tacit agreement that these self proclaimed authorities are beyond reproach and never t o be criticized or questioned.

Rational humanism is and atheistic morality and it far outstrips religions morality. The fact that modern "religious folk" have discarded many of the divine moral decrees in their own holy books and has replaced them with better ones proves this.

Tell me do you think you should beat your child with a stick?
Do you think a woman who is not a virgin on her wedding night should be stoned to death?

Do you really think that anyone who does not worship the god you worship is evil and will suffer an eternity of torture for no crime other than being born on the wrong patch of dirt and never being taught that your religion is the only one?

I say you are a bigot because you caricature and misrepresent religious thought. Unfortunately bigotry and intolerance are common among atheists:

Why Stalin Tried to Stamp Out Religion in the Soviet Union | HISTORY

Joseph Stalin led a uniquely brutal campaign against religion and religious leaders.

www.history.com

You believe that that your “atheistic morality“ is far superior. Yet atheists have committed mass murder on a colossal scale. Is your self-deception and vanity necessary for human well being?

I have tried to explain to you that in Christianity the New Testament is paramount rather than the Old Testament, but you don’t want to accept this.

Do you acknowledge that Christ opposed stoning?

Regarding Hell: C. S. Lewis once wrote that "the doors of hell are locked on the inside".

 

[Blues Man]

I say you are a bigot because you caricature and misrepresent religious thought. Unfortunately bigotry and intolerance are common among atheists:

Why Stalin Tried to Stamp Out Religion in the Soviet Union | HISTORY

Joseph Stalin led a uniquely brutal campaign against religion and religious leaders.

www.history.com

You believe that that your “atheistic morality“ is far superior. Yet atheists have committed mass murder on a colossal scale. Is your self-deception and vanity necessary for human well being?

I have tried to explain to you that in Christianity the New Testament is paramount rather than the Old Testament, but you don’t want to accept this.

Do you acknowledge that Christ opposed stoning?

Regarding Hell: C. S. Lewis once wrote that "the doors of hell are locked on the inside".

I'm not an atheist.

I am firmly in the agnostic camp. I do not claim to know the unknowable.

And either you worship the same god as Jews and Muslims or you don't.

You have a persecution complex. No organized religion has the moral authority they each claim to have. Including your religion of choice.

And you have not given me any proof that they do.

I have given you examples of how even zealots like you have chosen a higher moral code than that of your own holy texts and you call me a bigot for that?

Tell me where in the New Testament did Jesus say slavery is a sin and all slaves should be freed immediately upon pain of my father's eternal punishment?

Nowhere.

And yet you would never think owning another human being would be acceptable ( or at least I hope you wouldn't)

Humans are more than capable of choosing a better morality than exists in any religious texts of any organized religion

But I guess that's bigoted in your narrow world view.

 

[ding]

From a Darwinian perspective morality exists because it provides a functional advantage that lack of morality doesn't provide. It's the same reason why religion exists and hasn't died out. It provides a functional advantage over atheism.

That's the science.

 

[Dadoalex]

You seem sub-literate and unable to absorb basic information.

It’s not a “single monk” committing the atrocities in Myanmar. Muslims are a small minority in Myanmar.

https://www.pulitzer.org/files/2014/international-reporting/reuters/04reuters2014.pdf

The author of Zen at War, Ichikawa Hakugen, himself a Buddhist, lists twelve characteristics of Buddhism which have contributed to Japanese militarism.

And let’s not forget the situation in Sri Lanka:

Violent Buddhist extremists are targeting Muslims in Sri Lanka

Fed by colonialism, civil war and online hate speech, Buddhist extremism in Sri Lanka has been on the march for decades.

theconversation.com

And your ignorance of the history of the region is exceeded only by your ignorance of everything.

Some guy puts a Buddhist face on his desire for power and you think it's a condemnation of Buddhism?

Among morons, you are considered an idiot.

AND
There are a great many buddhist teachings that prove valuable in any enterprise, including the military.

But the primary teachings reject violence in any form.

So peddle your Christist propaganda elsewhere Christist.

 

[Blues Man]

From a Darwinian perspective morality exists because it provides a functional advantage that lack of morality doesn't provide. It's the same reason why religion exists and hasn't died out. It provides a functional advantage over atheism.

That's the science.

Religion is dying out.

And that it may be useful in no way means the beliefs of those religions are in any way true.

 

[San Souci]

It is my contention that morality is an undeveloped scientific discipline.

It is absolutely possible to construct a moral framework using reason and the scientific method alone. There is no need to surrender the study of morality to religions especially when the divine morals of the many gods are questionable at best.

If we define a moral framework as a system of laws that maximize the well being of conscious beings on this planet we can choose the best ways to do that.

Medicine, psychology, neuroscience, sociology and other disciplines can be used to explore and question the subject of morality and I will state that we have been doing this ever since humans have been alive on this earth.

The reason the subject of morality was surrendered to religion is simple. In the past religious institutions were the power base of society. They controlled education, science, and politics and pity the person who would ever question their authority.

This is why we have religions that condoned slavery and accepted that an all knowing god could not envision a human society without slavery. It's how we get a religion that forces women to live their lives in cloth bags and denies them an education. The horrors inflicted on people because of religious morals cannot be denied.

Devout Jews no longer stone to death Jews who do not observe the Sabbath even though it states in the bible that the penalty for such a sin is death.

We have learned that hitting a child with a stick is not the best way to modify that child's behavior.

We know that slavery is the absolute worst crime against humanity.

We did not come to these realizations by submitting to the morality of religions.

If other scientific disciplines can transcend religion and cultures why can't the discipline of morality?

Cancer is cancer no matter what religion the person afflicted adheres to. Cholera is cholera and is nondenominational. Algebra is algebra regardless of the god a person kneels to.

So yes we can decide the best ways to maximize the well being of all conscious beings on this planet the same way we came to decide a treatment for a medical condition is effective.

So ,what IS Moral? Marxism?

 

[White 6]

Moved to General Discussion, as not a Science and Technology thread.

 

[Blues Man]

So ,what IS Moral? Marxism?

Can we objectively evaluate Marxism in comparison to other sociopolitical philosophes and how they each impact the well being of people?