CDZ The pros and cons of illegal immigration

[Fair&Balanced]

Beyond the political rhetoric, let's discuss what everyone believes the pros and cons of illegal immigration are.

If someone gives a pro or a con you disagree with, please give a reason you disagree with that being either a pro or a con.

I'll start with the biggest con (in my oh so humble opinion) the fact that they can come over here and have a child and attach themselves to our social services system.

So, for example if you believe that isn't a reason to put a stop to illegal immigration, please tell me WHY that is, rather than just saying it isn't.

 

[jwoodie]

The pro is future Democratic voters.

The con is violating the rule of law.

 

[Alystyr]

Beyond the political rhetoric, let's discuss what everyone believes the pros and cons of illegal immigration are.

If someone gives a pro or a con you disagree with, please give a reason you disagree with that being either a pro or a con.

I'll start with the biggest con (in my oh so humble opinion) the fact that they can come over here and have a child and attach themselves to our social services system.

So, for example if you believe that isn't a reason to put a stop to illegal immigration, please tell me WHY that is, rather than just saying it isn't.

The child doesn't just attach them to the social service system, it lowers the risk of deportation to nearly nothing.

 

[sakinago]

Beyond the political rhetoric, let's discuss what everyone believes the pros and cons of illegal immigration are.

If someone gives a pro or a con you disagree with, please give a reason you disagree with that being either a pro or a con.

I'll start with the biggest con (in my oh so humble opinion) the fact that they can come over here and have a child and attach themselves to our social services system.

So, for example if you believe that isn't a reason to put a stop to illegal immigration, please tell me WHY that is, rather than just saying it isn't.

You can say that about any demographic who doesn't contribute value to the social security system. That is by far not the biggest con to illegal immigration, nor is that the major cause of downfall to the social security system. It is a problem, but the system has been in trouble for a long time. I guess I will make a list of pros and cons I can think of.

Cons:
1. The importation of poverty, this includes the driving down of wages on average for Americans. Citizens now have to compete for jobs with "dreamers" who are completly content with not only being paid less, but also willing to not demand benefits. Not only are they a much cheaper form of labor for business owners, but you don't have to pay taxes on them either. This gives business owners using illegal immigrants an unfair advantage over those using citizens, or legal migrants, and now those business have to either charge a higher price for goods and services, or switch to illegal immigrants themselves to be able to compete. The chamber of commerce is all for this cheap labor by the way. There is also a much added strain on the welfare and social services systems from those who have never once payed taxes, or legal fees, etc. to enter the United States properly. With poverty also comes a lower standard of living that many citizens just aren't comfortable to compete with. 3 seperate illegal alien families are content with sharing a 1100 sq ft cape cod style home, bringing their retail costs down while keeping ours at the same high level...since there's not much demand for lower cost competitive housing

2. The added strain on the public school system. The cost of educating students from illegal aliens was estimated to be about 44.5 billion dollars in 2008. This is not including any added costs like the extra cost it takes to educate a non English speaking student, like many of them are. Or other costs like additional school infrastructure required to house the additional students, cost of extra administration staff, translators, textbooks, etc.

3. The loss of the blind rule of law. Not only have you broke the law to come here illegally, you also have become above the law with respect to the average American citizen. Federal immigration authorities last year released 19,723 criminal illegal aliens back onto U.S. streets who have been convicted of 64,197 crimes — including 208 homicides.

If you get a DUI as an illegal alien, chances are you get caught and released. Rarely are illegal aliens charged. Compared to you or me, who get bleeped in the bleep if we were to get nabbed with a DUI. Also if you or I were to be hit by an illegal in a car accident, chances are we're eating that cost even though we're not at fault.

Read more: Murderers, Rapists, Kidnappers: Nearly 20,000 Criminal Aliens Released in 2015

4. Loss of national security. We simply do not know who is crossing our boarders. Let's not pretend like there are not people elsewhere, who would love nothing more than to come here and cause harm to Americans. On top of that criminal rapist Jorge Alvarez from Panama, can walk across the boarder and tell us his name is Jose Conseco, and non of us would be any the wiser. And if so many people are waltzing across our boarders, one can only imagine the amount of drugs, and the rest of the crimes that go with that, that are coming across the boarder as well. Has anybody heard of the Zika virus? Well if we don't know who is crossing our boarders, we also don't know what diseases they are bringing. We need to know who and what is coming into our country.

Now personally I believe that our immigration system should be opened up. So that we get more immigrants here LEGALLY, and disincentivise illegal immigration. The amount of hoops to jump through and cost, just like anything else in the US, to come here legally is absolutely ridiculous. The left will tell you the answer to these problems I listed is simply amnesty. Which history shows us only encourages more illegal immigration. Now the left cares about the rule of law only when it pertains to issues that they care about, like gay marriage (which I am for). You will hear them shout it's the "law of the land", but when it comes to this issue, they are silent.

 

[D Truth]

Beyond the political rhetoric, let's discuss what everyone believes the pros and cons of illegal immigration are.

If someone gives a pro or a con you disagree with, please give a reason you disagree with that being either a pro or a con.

I'll start with the biggest con (in my oh so humble opinion) the fact that they can come over here and have a child and attach themselves to our social services system.

So, for example if you believe that isn't a reason to put a stop to illegal immigration, please tell me WHY that is, rather than just saying it isn't.

You can say that about any demographic who doesn't contribute value to the social security system. That is by far not the biggest con to illegal immigration, nor is that the major cause of downfall to the social security system. It is a problem, but the system has been in trouble for a long time. I guess I will make a list of pros and cons I can think of.

Cons:
1. The importation of poverty, this includes the driving down of wages on average for Americans. Citizens now have to compete for jobs with "dreamers" who are completly content with not only being paid less, but also willing to not demand benefits. Not only are they a much cheaper form of labor for business owners, but you don't have to pay taxes on them either. This gives business owners using illegal immigrants an unfair advantage over those using citizens, or legal migrants, and now those business have to either charge a higher price for goods and services, or switch to illegal immigrants themselves to be able to compete. The chamber of commerce is all for this cheap labor by the way. There is also a much added strain on the welfare and social services systems from those who have never once payed taxes, or legal fees, etc. to enter the United States properly. With poverty also comes a lower standard of living that many citizens just aren't comfortable to compete with. 3 seperate illegal alien families are content with sharing a 1100 sq ft cape cod style home, bringing their retail costs down while keeping ours at the same high level...since there's not much demand for lower cost competitive housing

2. The added strain on the public school system. The cost of educating students from illegal aliens was estimated to be about 44.5 billion dollars in 2008. This is not including any added costs like the extra cost it takes to educate a non English speaking student, like many of them are. Or other costs like additional school infrastructure required to house the additional students, cost of extra administration staff, translators, textbooks, etc.

3. The loss of the blind rule of law. Not only have you broke the law to come here illegally, you also have become above the law with respect to the average American citizen. Federal immigration authorities last year released 19,723 criminal illegal aliens back onto U.S. streets who have been convicted of 64,197 crimes — including 208 homicides.

If you get a DUI as an illegal alien, chances are you get caught and released. Rarely are illegal aliens charged. Compared to you or me, who get bleeped in the bleep if we were to get nabbed with a DUI. Also if you or I were to be hit by an illegal in a car accident, chances are we're eating that cost even though we're not at fault.

Read more: Murderers, Rapists, Kidnappers: Nearly 20,000 Criminal Aliens Released in 2015

4. Loss of national security. We simply do not know who is crossing our boarders. Let's not pretend like there are not people elsewhere, who would love nothing more than to come here and cause harm to Americans. On top of that criminal rapist Jorge Alvarez from Panama, can walk across the boarder and tell us his name is Jose Conseco, and non of us would be any the wiser. And if so many people are waltzing across our boarders, one can only imagine the amount of drugs, and the rest of the crimes that go with that, that are coming across the boarder as well. Has anybody heard of the Zika virus? Well if we don't know who is crossing our boarders, we also don't know what diseases they are bringing. We need to know who and what is coming into our country.

Now personally I believe that our immigration system should be opened up. So that we get more immigrants here LEGALLY, and disincentivise illegal immigration. The amount of hoops to jump through and cost, just like anything else in the US, to come here legally is absolutely ridiculous. The left will tell you the answer to these problems I listed is simply amnesty. Which history shows us only encourages more illegal immigration. Now the left cares about the rule of law only when it pertains to issues that they care about, like gay marriage (which I am for). You will hear them shout it's the "law of the land", but when it comes to this issue, they are silent.

OK, just to play devil's advocate...

1
PRO
Driving down wages. This helps the corporate monopolies. This is even more beneficial to them if the invading population is replacing natives. Chaos and genocide is good for certain types of business.

2
PRO
Who gives a shit about the public school system? It was always just a scheduled train wreck. -OK not playing on this one, the faster the public school system is demolished the better.

3
Here you actually have a point, I must almost digress.
Then again, in today's measure what you are describing as "law" only serves the corporate interests... and the more it is turned into a mockery... well that just might be a PRO down the road?

4
PRO
Who gives a shit, the country is already gone.
In case you haven't noticed the United States has ceased to exist. Hell, our military is really just a giant mercenary force for globalist & zionist interests. The resulting balkanization is inevitable in the grand scheme, and will likely turn out for the better for localized law in the long run.

 

[Elvis Obama]

Where is the crime, in being illegal labor or in employing illegal labor? If you have crumbs on your counter and you have roaches as a consequence what should you do? Swat the roaches or clean the counter? If you make employers pay for hiring illegal immigrants they will stop hiring them, and they will stop coming here.

As far as those who are here now, the natural instinct is to deport them. National sovereignty either means something or it does not. Immigration policy is not something arbitrary. A country decides who to let in and who to keep out for important reasons, and our southern border makes a mockery of those policies. Practically? Fugetaboutit. It's the product of a delusional mindset to believe that we can deport 11 million people. Operation Wetback was a complete failure, and the number of illegal immigrants then was a fraction of what it is now. Armed raids? Mothers torn from their children and sent to deportation camps? On TV? That ain't good for business.

 

[Alystyr]

Beyond the political rhetoric, let's discuss what everyone believes the pros and cons of illegal immigration are.

If someone gives a pro or a con you disagree with, please give a reason you disagree with that being either a pro or a con.

I'll start with the biggest con (in my oh so humble opinion) the fact that they can come over here and have a child and attach themselves to our social services system.

So, for example if you believe that isn't a reason to put a stop to illegal immigration, please tell me WHY that is, rather than just saying it isn't.

You can say that about any demographic who doesn't contribute value to the social security system. That is by far not the biggest con to illegal immigration, nor is that the major cause of downfall to the social security system. It is a problem, but the system has been in trouble for a long time. I guess I will make a list of pros and cons I can think of.

Cons:
1. The importation of poverty, this includes the driving down of wages on average for Americans. Citizens now have to compete for jobs with "dreamers" who are completly content with not only being paid less, but also willing to not demand benefits. Not only are they a much cheaper form of labor for business owners, but you don't have to pay taxes on them either. This gives business owners using illegal immigrants an unfair advantage over those using citizens, or legal migrants, and now those business have to either charge a higher price for goods and services, or switch to illegal immigrants themselves to be able to compete. The chamber of commerce is all for this cheap labor by the way. There is also a much added strain on the welfare and social services systems from those who have never once payed taxes, or legal fees, etc. to enter the United States properly. With poverty also comes a lower standard of living that many citizens just aren't comfortable to compete with. 3 seperate illegal alien families are content with sharing a 1100 sq ft cape cod style home, bringing their retail costs down while keeping ours at the same high level...since there's not much demand for lower cost competitive housing

2. The added strain on the public school system. The cost of educating students from illegal aliens was estimated to be about 44.5 billion dollars in 2008. This is not including any added costs like the extra cost it takes to educate a non English speaking student, like many of them are. Or other costs like additional school infrastructure required to house the additional students, cost of extra administration staff, translators, textbooks, etc.

3. The loss of the blind rule of law. Not only have you broke the law to come here illegally, you also have become above the law with respect to the average American citizen. Federal immigration authorities last year released 19,723 criminal illegal aliens back onto U.S. streets who have been convicted of 64,197 crimes — including 208 homicides.

If you get a DUI as an illegal alien, chances are you get caught and released. Rarely are illegal aliens charged. Compared to you or me, who get bleeped in the bleep if we were to get nabbed with a DUI. Also if you or I were to be hit by an illegal in a car accident, chances are we're eating that cost even though we're not at fault.

Read more: Murderers, Rapists, Kidnappers: Nearly 20,000 Criminal Aliens Released in 2015

4. Loss of national security. We simply do not know who is crossing our boarders. Let's not pretend like there are not people elsewhere, who would love nothing more than to come here and cause harm to Americans. On top of that criminal rapist Jorge Alvarez from Panama, can walk across the boarder and tell us his name is Jose Conseco, and non of us would be any the wiser. And if so many people are waltzing across our boarders, one can only imagine the amount of drugs, and the rest of the crimes that go with that, that are coming across the boarder as well. Has anybody heard of the Zika virus? Well if we don't know who is crossing our boarders, we also don't know what diseases they are bringing. We need to know who and what is coming into our country.

Now personally I believe that our immigration system should be opened up. So that we get more immigrants here LEGALLY, and disincentivise illegal immigration. The amount of hoops to jump through and cost, just like anything else in the US, to come here legally is absolutely ridiculous. The left will tell you the answer to these problems I listed is simply amnesty. Which history shows us only encourages more illegal immigration. Now the left cares about the rule of law only when it pertains to issues that they care about, like gay marriage (which I am for). You will hear them shout it's the "law of the land", but when it comes to this issue, they are silent.

All are excellent points. The only thing that I disagree with is your stance on opening up the immigration system. I would probably be alright with streamlining the process somewhat, since I'm sure there's some bloat that could be eliminated, but not if it would mean loosening the overall standards or raising yearly totals.
If there were to be a corresponding reduction of L-1, L-2, H-1B, educational, and similar visas, I could possibly accept an increase in citizenship immigration. Visa holders, in general, don't have a stake in making the U.S. a better place like a permanent citizen would. They take what they gain back with them to benefit their home countries, similar to illegal immigrants sending spare earnings out of the country. Neither benefits America.

Back on topic, that brings up a related con:
Many, if not most, illegal immigrants sending spare earnings out of the country.
I haven't researched actual numbers, but I've heard from a few sources that the amount could total in the billions of dollars yearly. This money, if spent within the U.S., would benefit the economy substantially. As it stands, the destination countries are the ones who benefit.
A possible fix would be to add a surcharge or fee to any Western Union, MoneyGram, etc., transaction sent out of the U.S., perhaps 40%-60% (or more) of the total transaction. In a perfect world, the fees collected would be returned to the originating locality of a given fund transfer to bolster local businesses, but I can see that being very unwieldy and prone to abuse and fraud.
I'm sure however, that it could be made to work somehow and return money to the economy that would otherwise be lost.

 

[Vigilante]

 

[Alystyr]

Where is the crime, in being illegal labor or in employing illegal labor? If you have crumbs on your counter and you have roaches as a consequence what should you do? Swat the roaches or clean the counter? If you make employers pay for hiring illegal immigrants they will stop hiring them, and they will stop coming here.

As far as those who are here now, the natural instinct is to deport them. National sovereignty either means something or it does not. Immigration policy is not something arbitrary. A country decides who to let in and who to keep out for important reasons, and our southern border makes a mockery of those policies. Practically? Fugetaboutit. It's the product of a delusional mindset to believe that we can deport 11 million people. Operation Wetback was a complete failure, and the number of illegal immigrants then was a fraction of what it is now. Armed raids? Mothers torn from their children and sent to deportation camps? On TV? That ain't good for business.

First paragraph: Agreed, however I see nothing wrong with doing both - swat the roaches then clean the counter.
Second paragraph: We may not be able to deport 11 million at once, but what we can do is deport those that cross the path of law enforcement, quickly and reliably - exactly the opposite of the current situation.