The OLDER Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate

[Boston1]

Yikes, did that ever get off track.

Lets try this.

Israel was not created by the UN, it was created by the Zionists who tried to negotiate through the UN with the Nazi's; oops, the Arab Muslims and actually make a 3 state solution. Since there was clearly going to be a third country called Jordan. The Arab League wouldn't have it and refused all negotiations.

So as soon as the UN was out of the way via the charter expiring the Zionists created the state themselves with undefined borders.

But no matter how you slice it, the UN didn't create Israel. What the UN did was take over the mandate and attempt to set up a Jewish national homeland, it failed.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Actually, this would be better here:

Palestinian Authority Makes New Threats. "We'll Hijack Your Planes."

So you can produce a valid unbiased and non partisan link that says the LoN held the land in trust for the inhabitants.​

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The Mandate system was instituted by the League of Nations in the early 20th century to administer non-self-governing territories. The mandatory power, appointed by an international body, was to consider the mandated territory a temporary trust and to see to the well-being and advancement of its population.

History & Overview of the British Palestine Mandate | Jewish Virtual Library

 

[Fishlore]

The tangled history of the conflict is fascinating. What is pretty certain as far into the future as the eye can see is that Israel is not going to go away. Equally obvious is that the four hundred million Arabs backing the Palestinians aren't going away either.

The situation has gotten into a mess such that the two contending parties, Israel and Palestine, can't or won't solve the problem between themselves. Nothing unusual there; in those periods of peace in the region, the peace has been imposed and enforced by a powerful outside party. Our problem now is that there are various candidate for such a role (USA, Iran, Arab League, Turkey, UN etc.) only one of whom seems likely to be able to get the job.

The UN is blocked by the USA because our client, Israel is hoping for a lot more land than the UN is likely to give Israel in any peace settlement. Israel still hopes to bully its way into Eretz Israel with American backing. That isn't going to happen, but until the US sends that message to Likud in clear language backed up by a no-veto threat, innocent women and kids are going to continue to be blown to pieces all over the City of Peace.

 

[P F Tinmore]

From:

Boycott Israel

What territory? When did Israel legally acquire any territory?

You asked this many times before.​

Indeed, and you have ducked it every time.

 

[Boston1]

From:

Boycott Israel

What territory? When did Israel legally acquire any territory?

You asked this many times before.​

Indeed, and you have ducked it every time.

I'm sorry you seem to be having so much trouble following the conversation

Its been well established within the mandate that the Judaic people were entitled to set up governance of a national Jewish homeland anywhere west of the Jordan and within the mandated area.

You have been shown the Jordan memorandum countless times

If you are having trouble comprehending it, thats fine, but the document is clear and there can be no doubt that international agreement grants Israel ALL the mandate territory west of the Jordan.

 

[Shusha]

The idea that the explicit assignment of at least some territory to the Jewish people for a National Homeland in Palestine didn't actually happen is one of the more ridiculous anti-Israel arguments ever.

 

[Billo_Really]

I'm sorry you seem to be having so much trouble following the conversation

Its been well established within the mandate that the Judaic people were entitled to set up governance of a national Jewish homeland anywhere west of the Jordan and within the mandated area.

You have been shown the Jordan memorandum countless times

If you are having trouble comprehending it, thats fine, but the document is clear and there can be no doubt that international agreement grants Israel ALL the mandate territory west of the Jordan.

"...the Judaic people were entitled..."

Boy, is that a whopper!

You move into my neighborhood and think your "entitled" to my home, just because your great, great, great, great, great, grandmother lived there years ago?

 

[Billo_Really]

The idea that the explicit assignment of at least some territory to the Jewish people for a National Homeland in Palestine didn't actually happen is one of the more ridiculous anti-Israel arguments ever.

Oh, it happened. But it was done with the caveat that any Jewish homeland, could only be done without prejudicing any of the existing, indigenous, non-Jewish residents, in that area.

But that's not what happened. You migrated in (some illegally) with extreme prejudice.

 

[Boston1]

I'm sorry you seem to be having so much trouble following the conversation

Its been well established within the mandate that the Judaic people were entitled to set up governance of a national Jewish homeland anywhere west of the Jordan and within the mandated area.

You have been shown the Jordan memorandum countless times

If you are having trouble comprehending it, thats fine, but the document is clear and there can be no doubt that international agreement grants Israel ALL the mandate territory west of the Jordan.

"...the Judaic people were entitled..."

Boy, is that a whopper!

You move into my neighborhood and think your "entitled" to my home, just because your great, great, great, great, great, grandmother lived there years ago?

Regardless of the various Arab Nazi pogroms against the Judaic people huge number still remained within the area of their cultural and racial beginnings. Present day ISRAEL.

In a long overdue victory for native rights the LoN assigned an area to these native peoples. Just as they assigned other areas to other peoples.

Yet for all the whining and crying we hear about this particular state, we don't hear a thing about any of the others.

What is unique about this particular state ? Its the ONLY Jewish state. Which leads to the logical conclusion that these complaints are based on racism and bigotry. By people so petty that while in one breath they bemoan the plight of an invented race, in the other they ignore the reality of an actual native peoples struggles and successes.

 

[P F Tinmore]

The idea that the explicit assignment of at least some territory to the Jewish people for a National Homeland in Palestine didn't actually happen is one of the more ridiculous anti-Israel arguments ever.

It is true that no land was given to the Jews. The Jews were to obtain Palestinian citizenship. As Palestinian citizens inside Palestine, they would have the right to live anywhere in Palestine. It is a different story for those who are not Palestinian citizens.

See article 7 of the Mandate for Palestine.

 

[Shusha]

The idea that the explicit assignment of at least some territory to the Jewish people for a National Homeland in Palestine didn't actually happen is one of the more ridiculous anti-Israel arguments ever.

It is true that no land was given to the Jews. The Jews were to obtain Palestinian citizenship. As Palestinian citizens inside Palestine, they would have the right to live anywhere in Palestine. It is a different story for those who are not Palestinian citizens.

See article 7 of the Mandate for Palestine.

The Jews were to obtain a National Homeland.

 

[Fishlore]

Passions over Israel are so intense in America that no reasonable conversation seems to be possible. This is not the case in the rest of the world, a factor of increasing importance as America's role as colonial administrator in Palestine fades into history and the global economy transforms the relative power of non-Western nations at the UN.

In the West, we see the Palestinian issue through the lens of Bible myths and guilt over our centuries as the principal persecutor of Jews on the planet. In the USA this lens is magnified by the gigantic, disproportionate wealth and influence of Jews (less than 2%) in the country. Arab peoples have the additional disadvantage of long-standing resistance, often through terrorism to Western influence. What most of don't realize is the the vast majority of the world's peoples and their governments see the Palestinian conflict from a very different point of view than our own.

This new point of view is still only hazily grasped by most Americans. Phrases like "the new global economy" and "the rise of China" allude to a much broader and deeper transformation that is already making the twenty-first century different from the one before it. We ain't seen nuthin' yet.

 

[Challenger]

The idea that the explicit assignment of at least some territory to the Jewish people for a National Homeland in Palestine didn't actually happen is one of the more ridiculous anti-Israel arguments ever.

It is true that no land was given to the Jews. The Jews were to obtain Palestinian citizenship. As Palestinian citizens inside Palestine, they would have the right to live anywhere in Palestine. It is a different story for those who are not Palestinian citizens.

See article 7 of the Mandate for Palestine.

The Jews were to obtain a National Homeland.

...in Palestine. Under British rule/domination.

 

[Shusha]

The idea that the explicit assignment of at least some territory to the Jewish people for a National Homeland in Palestine didn't actually happen is one of the more ridiculous anti-Israel arguments ever.

It is true that no land was given to the Jews. The Jews were to obtain Palestinian citizenship. As Palestinian citizens inside Palestine, they would have the right to live anywhere in Palestine. It is a different story for those who are not Palestinian citizens.

See article 7 of the Mandate for Palestine.

The Jews were to obtain a National Homeland.

...in Palestine. Under British rule/domination.

Until they were capable of achieving independence and self-rule. Which they did. And called their nation (after the old one) Israel.

 

[P F Tinmore]

The idea that the explicit assignment of at least some territory to the Jewish people for a National Homeland in Palestine didn't actually happen is one of the more ridiculous anti-Israel arguments ever.

It is true that no land was given to the Jews. The Jews were to obtain Palestinian citizenship. As Palestinian citizens inside Palestine, they would have the right to live anywhere in Palestine. It is a different story for those who are not Palestinian citizens.

See article 7 of the Mandate for Palestine.

The Jews were to obtain a National Homeland.

You don't know what that means.

 

[Shusha]

You don't know what that means.

Meaning if I don't agree with you I must be stupid or ignorant. Not to worry, I've been on this board long enough to know exactly what your backwards arguments are. They are essentially rooted in the idea that the Jewish people don't have rights like other peoples. And they essentially ignore facts like Israel's existence.

There can never be a solution for people like you because your base ideology won't allow solutions involving compromise, respect and a little give and take.

 

[Phoenall]

I am sticking to the issue, the BDS movement has been an abject failure...

...which is why the Zionist camp has been spending $millions trying to combat it and the Zionist regime calls it a strategic threat...not quite "abject" and still ongoing so not a "failure" either.

Yet all we need do is sit back and watch the nations go under that support BDS as their stock markets collapse. While those that oppose BDS see theirs flourish. And not one Jew or Zionist would be implicated in the collapse. As the US did a short while back threaten the seats of learning with having funding cut if they allow BDS in any form to take root in them.

As the left wing rent-a-mob found out in the UK the police will charge them with racism and section 5 offences that could result in them losing their place in uni.

 

[Phoenall]

Aside from the issue of mocking the poster not the policy, you shouldn't mock BDS as a failed policy because it hasn't yet been tried and so has neither failed nor succeeded.

It hasn't been tried?!
Whatever validity you had just got blown away.

I think you mean "credibility" not "validity." Hard to tell. BDS has not become the policy of any national government or supra-national organization. The various symbolic protests and calls for divestment have alarmed Likud but had not real effect yet. Sanctions can only be done by sovereign bodies. Significant boycott by international trading partners has yet to occur.

The day that BDS programs such as those imposed on Iran and North Korea are applied to Israel will, in all likelyhood, never come because once Israel gets the "no kidding" message from the USA, as in "we aren't going to veto the UN resolution," or the EU imposes a boycott on Israeli goods, the state of Israel will back down because Israel cannot survive without continuous outside financial support.

If you persist in attacking me personally I will have the unhappy choice of replying in kind or ignoring you. Please stick to the issue.

I am sticking to the issue, the BDS movement has been an abject failure.
Lending it's "success" any credibility shows you didn't do your research before asserting it was a success.

What I said in post #483 was "There is going to be SBD economic sanction and Israel will not be able to resist that pressure." You might want to not the future tense "going to be." The BDS movement has grown in support and continues to grow. It isn't a "failure" it is a "proposal."

There are are only two alternatives to BDS. One is to walk away and leave Likud with the fruits of its illegal aggression, including millions of stateless Palestinians, in violation of UN resolutions and US policy. The other is war. No one can predicte the future; however, SBD seems the most likely of the three.

It is going down faster than it can grow as pressure is brought on the seat of the movement. Take away the activists means of support and income and they will soon stop following a failing movement. The colleges and universities are losing funding, and as a result losing their standing in certain fields, and so the circle turns

 

[Phoenall]

The idea that the explicit assignment of at least some territory to the Jewish people for a National Homeland in Palestine didn't actually happen is one of the more ridiculous anti-Israel arguments ever.

It is true that no land was given to the Jews. The Jews were to obtain Palestinian citizenship. As Palestinian citizens inside Palestine, they would have the right to live anywhere in Palestine. It is a different story for those who are not Palestinian citizens.

See article 7 of the Mandate for Palestine.

The Jews were to obtain a National Homeland.

You don't know what that means.

Do you as it seems you cant read English


Here are the relevant parts that tell you precisely what they mean





The Avalon Project : The Palestine Mandate

The Palestine Mandate​

The Council of the League of Nations:

Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have agreed, for the purpose of giving effect to the provisions of Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations, to entrust to a Mandatory selected by the said Powers the administration of the territory of Palestine, which formerly belonged to the Turkish Empire, within such boundaries as may be fixed by them; and

Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have also agreed that the Mandatory should be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 2nd, 1917, by the Government of His Britannic Majesty, and adopted by the said Powers, in favor of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country; and

Whereas recognition has thereby been given to the historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine and to the grounds for reconstituting their national home in that country; and

Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have selected His Britannic Majesty as the Mandatory for Palestine; and

Whereas the mandate in respect of Palestine has been formulated in the following terms and submitted to the Council of the League for approval; and

Whereas His Britannic Majesty has accepted the mandate in respect of Palestine and undertaken to exercise it on behalf of the League of Nations in conformity with the following provisions; and

Whereas by the afore-mentioned Article 22 (paragraph 8), it is provided that the degree of authority, control or administration to be exercised by the Mandatory, not having been previously agreed upon by the Members of the League, shall be explicitly defined by the Council of the League Of Nations;

confirming the said Mandate, defines its terms as follows:



So you see it clearly states that in 1923 they placed into International law the creation of the Jewish national home ( read state or nation ) within delineated borders.


So how do you understand the LoN mandate to read then, and where does it say nation of Palestine or Palestinian national home ?

 

[Phoenall]

You don't know what that means.

Meaning if I don't agree with you I must be stupid or ignorant. Not to worry, I've been on this board long enough to know exactly what your backwards arguments are. They are essentially rooted in the idea that the Jewish people don't have rights like other peoples. And they essentially ignore facts like Israel's existence.

There can never be a solution for people like you because your base ideology won't allow solutions involving compromise, respect and a little give and take.

Then he wonders why we see him as a muslim after he tried to hide his false veneer so well. You cant take the culture out of islamic migrants that makes them so aggressive and misogynist.