The OLDER Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate

[Challenger]

Biblical and archeological arguments are interesting but the only other government that uses them as Israel does is ISIS. Both these groups claim possession of territory taken by force on the basis of theologial argument and appeals to tradition. The rest of the world isn't buying either one. Israel is going from a secular democracy to a brutal and reactionary theocracy. America is being led along by the nose but we are wising up and time is running out.

Yes, you're absolutely correct.
Israel is going on a head chopping, machine gunning frenzy of the like not seen since you last posted anti-Israel bullshit.

Sounds about right, that's what the Zionists and their lackeys do; drone, artillery, missile strikes can have a tendancy to decapitate their victims, and that's what the IOF did for their summer break last year, did you miss that? Operation Big Rock...oh, too brutal...lets call it "Protective Edge" for the American media.

 

[Challenger]

P F Tinmore, et al,

OH, I see --- obviously I simply do not understand what racism is. I thought it was:

Cultural competence — loosely defined as the ability to understand, appreciate and interact with people from cultures or belief systems different from one's own — has been a key aspect of psychological thinking and practice for some 50 years.

It is racist to speculate on the Palestinian's incompetence.

(COMMENT)

What can I say.

Most Respectfully,
R

Only in the modern West, the peoples of the East especially those of the Levant have been very adept in this practice for centuries. Just look at the Ottoman Empire, one of the most culturally diverse and tolerant regimes in history. It just took an influx of intolerant Europeans savages to upset the orange cart.

 

[Fishlore]

There are four or five million Palestinians under Israeli occupation. The UN and the USA and just about every nation on the planet agree that they should have a country of their own. If the UN doesn't implement this "two-state solution" in some form or other, what is going to happen to those Palestinians? One answer, I suppose, would be a "final solution" of mass murder. Not likely. Incorporating them into Eretz Israel means keeping them without voting rights and only limited personal rights because if the Palestinians are given full citienship, Jews become a minority in Israel.

Bibi and his Likud coalition are inching their way to some sort of one-state solution with limited rights for those millions of Palestinians. How can anyone with any knowledge of the past forty years of conflict think that plan is going to work?

Some right wingers think Likud can tough it out because the IDF is unbeatable in combat, but there isn't going to be any combat. There is going to be SBD economic sanction and Israel will not be able to resist that pressure. The USA will never waver in its support of Israel but that doesn't mean that we will back anything and everything that the right wing Likud dreams up.

 

[Indeependent]

There are four or five million Palestinians under Israeli occupation. The UN and the USA and just about every nation on the planet agree that they should have a country of their own. If the UN doesn't implement this "two-state solution" in some form or other, what is going to happen to those Palestinians? One answer, I suppose, would be a "final solution" of mass murder. Not likely. Incorporating them into Eretz Israel means keeping them without voting rights and only limited personal rights because if the Palestinians are given full citienship, Jews become a minority in Israel.

Bibi and his Likud coalition are inching their way to some sort of one-state solution with limited rights for those millions of Palestinians. How can anyone with any knowledge of the past forty years of conflict think that plan is going to work?

Some right wingers think Likud can tough it out because the IDF is unbeatable in combat, but there isn't going to be any combat. There is going to be SBD economic sanction and Israel will not be able to resist that pressure. The USA will never waver in its support of Israel but that doesn't mean that we will back anything and everything that the right wing Likud dreams up.

Yep! Those sanctions have worked out real well...in your imagination.
Eventually, Jordan will have to absorb them and will probably kill them "by accident".

 

[RoccoR]

Indeependent, et al,

It is not a foregone conclusion that the Arab Palestinians cannot achieve a better quality of life and a higher level of human development. It is only highly probable given their inability to adapt to changing conditions.

The real question is --- did the Arab Palestinian process of changing its strategy from the 1967 and 1973 reflect the same failures to adapt in the failures experienced in the 1948 War of Independence.

There are four or five million Palestinians under Israeli occupation. The UN and the USA and just about every nation on the planet agree that they should have a country of their own. If the UN doesn't implement this "two-state solution" in some form or other, what is going to happen to those Palestinians? One answer, I suppose, would be a "final solution" of mass murder. Not likely. Incorporating them into Eretz Israel means keeping them without voting rights and only limited personal rights because if the Palestinians are given full citienship, Jews become a minority in Israel.

Bibi and his Likud coalition are inching their way to some sort of one-state solution with limited rights for those millions of Palestinians. How can anyone with any knowledge of the past forty years of conflict think that plan is going to work?

Some right wingers think Likud can tough it out because the IDF is unbeatable in combat, but there isn't going to be any combat. There is going to be SBD economic sanction and Israel will not be able to resist that pressure. The USA will never waver in its support of Israel but that doesn't mean that we will back anything and everything that the right wing Likud dreams up.

Yep! Those sanctions have worked out real well...in your imagination.
Eventually, Jordan will have to absorb them and will probably kill them "by accident".

(COMMENT)

It is generally the case that the Arab Palestinian attempts (more often then not) to USE FORCE to achieve the political Islamic objectives (whether Jihadist or Economic) that were unattainable through the peaceful means endorsed by the UN Charter and articulated in the Declaration of Principles.

The stratagem to gradually overrun the Jewish State of Israel (with anti-Semitic Arabs), such that, the Jewish become a minority again --- is not unusual. It would set the Jewish in danger of being oppressed once more by those hostile to protecting and preserving the Jewish National Home. This with the agenda of rendering the Jewish incapable of their own self-defense anti-semitic forces posed by the Arab Palestinian. These anti-semitic forces typically orchestrate changes in law that will grant an undisputed advantages to the anti-semitic and gradually increasing disadvantages on the Jewish constituents.

Jordan already had a struggle against a Palestinian insurrection (1970) which attempted to overthrow the government and assassinate the King (not once but twice). It is unlikely that the Hashemite Kingdom will want to grant the Palestinians and further voice in the government; or --- reestablish administrative and legal ties with Palestinians. The previous relationship, that proved dangerous in the past, the Palestinians attempting to achieve through the USE of FORCE against the Hashemite Kingdom.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Fishlore]

There are four or five million Palestinians under Israeli occupation. The UN and the USA and just about every nation on the planet agree that they should have a country of their own. If the UN doesn't implement this "two-state solution" in some form or other, what is going to happen to those Palestinians? One answer, I suppose, would be a "final solution" of mass murder. Not likely. Incorporating them into Eretz Israel means keeping them without voting rights and only limited personal rights because if the Palestinians are given full citienship, Jews become a minority in Israel.

Bibi and his Likud coalition are inching their way to some sort of one-state solution with limited rights for those millions of Palestinians. How can anyone with any knowledge of the past forty years of conflict think that plan is going to work?

Some right wingers think Likud can tough it out because the IDF is unbeatable in combat, but there isn't going to be any combat. There is going to be SBD economic sanction and Israel will not be able to resist that pressure. The USA will never waver in its support of Israel but that doesn't mean that we will back anything and everything that the right wing Likud dreams up.

Yep! Those sanctions have worked out real well...in your imagination.
Eventually, Jordan will have to absorb them and will probably kill them "by accident".

The sanctions have not yet been applied, nor would I expect them to be. At some point when a sanctions resolution is about to come before the UN GA the USA will inform Israel discreetly that we will not use our SC veto to stop it, the government of Israel will take a deep breath and agree to whatever plan the US is backing. We are not going to humilliate Israel in public, much less withdraw economic or military support. When the US finally puts its foot down, Israel will dance the horah.

I hope that condescending sarcasm such as "Yep! Those sanctions have worked out real well...in your imagination." can be omitted in future posts.

 

[Indeependent]

There are four or five million Palestinians under Israeli occupation. The UN and the USA and just about every nation on the planet agree that they should have a country of their own. If the UN doesn't implement this "two-state solution" in some form or other, what is going to happen to those Palestinians? One answer, I suppose, would be a "final solution" of mass murder. Not likely. Incorporating them into Eretz Israel means keeping them without voting rights and only limited personal rights because if the Palestinians are given full citienship, Jews become a minority in Israel.

Bibi and his Likud coalition are inching their way to some sort of one-state solution with limited rights for those millions of Palestinians. How can anyone with any knowledge of the past forty years of conflict think that plan is going to work?

Some right wingers think Likud can tough it out because the IDF is unbeatable in combat, but there isn't going to be any combat. There is going to be SBD economic sanction and Israel will not be able to resist that pressure. The USA will never waver in its support of Israel but that doesn't mean that we will back anything and everything that the right wing Likud dreams up.

Yep! Those sanctions have worked out real well...in your imagination.
Eventually, Jordan will have to absorb them and will probably kill them "by accident".

The sanctions have not yet been applied, nor would I expect them to be. At some point when a sanctions resolution is about to come before the UN GA the USA will inform Israel discreetly that we will not use our SC veto to stop it, the government of Israel will take a deep breath and agree to whatever plan the US is backing. We are not going to humilliate Israel in public, much less withdraw economic or military support. When the US finally puts its foot down, Israel will dance the horah.

I hope that condescending sarcasm such as "Yep! Those sanctions have worked out real well...in your imagination." can be omitted in future posts.

You are correct if a Democrat or a Republican besides Trump is in the White House.

 

[montelatici]

When have a people ever gained independence from a colonial overlord without the use of force? The Jewish National Home was built on land that Palestinians, Christians and Muslims, subsequently expelled had lived on for millennia. It was ethnic cleansing by Europeans.

 

[Indeependent]

There are four or five million Palestinians under Israeli occupation. The UN and the USA and just about every nation on the planet agree that they should have a country of their own. If the UN doesn't implement this "two-state solution" in some form or other, what is going to happen to those Palestinians? One answer, I suppose, would be a "final solution" of mass murder. Not likely. Incorporating them into Eretz Israel means keeping them without voting rights and only limited personal rights because if the Palestinians are given full citienship, Jews become a minority in Israel.

Bibi and his Likud coalition are inching their way to some sort of one-state solution with limited rights for those millions of Palestinians. How can anyone with any knowledge of the past forty years of conflict think that plan is going to work?

Some right wingers think Likud can tough it out because the IDF is unbeatable in combat, but there isn't going to be any combat. There is going to be SBD economic sanction and Israel will not be able to resist that pressure. The USA will never waver in its support of Israel but that doesn't mean that we will back anything and everything that the right wing Likud dreams up.

I hope that condescending sarcasm such as "Yep! Those sanctions have worked out real well...in your imagination." can be omitted in future posts.

People continuously post a failed policy as successful.
Why should I not mock this?

 

[Indeependent]

When have a people ever gained independence from a colonial overlord without the use of force? The Jewish National Home was built on land that Palestinians, Christians and Muslims, subsequently expelled had lived on for millennia. It was ethnic cleansing by Europeans.

Never, and that's why you should continue to collect your hoards of followers.

 

[Shusha]

When have a people ever gained independence from a colonial overlord without the use of force?

I can think of at least a few examples. Some of the First Nations peoples of Canada being the ones on the top of my head.

The Jewish National Home was built on land that Palestinians, Christians and Muslims, subsequently expelled had lived on for millennia. It was ethnic cleansing by Europeans.

Land that the Jewish people had been expelled from and ethnically cleansed from -- land they had lived on for millenia. Either expulsion and ethnic cleansing ENDS rights to self-determination and sovereignty or it doesn't. You choose which. But you can't have it both ways.

 

[montelatici]

Jews had never lived in Palestine for millennia. They invaded the area and were quickly removed by the Assyrians.

 

[abu afak]

Jews had Never lived in Palestine for Millennia. They invaded the area and were quickly removed by the Assyrians.

Really?

History of Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

...In the late 13th century, Palestine and Syria were the primary front for battles between the Egyptian Mamluks and the Mongol Empire. The pivotal battle was the Battle of Ain Jalut in 1260, when the Mamluks, after having brokered a cautious neutrality with the Crusaders (who regarded the Mongols as a greater threat), were able to advance northwards and achieve a decisive victory over the Mongols at Ain Jalut, near Galilee. The Mongols were, however, able to engage into some brief Mongol raids into Palestine in 1260 and 1300, reaching as far as Gaza.

Due to the many earthquakes, the religious extremism and the black plague that hit during this era, the Population Dwindled to around 200,000. It is during this period that the land began to have a Levantine Muslim majority and even in the traditional Jewish stronghold of Eastern Galilee, a new Jewish-Muslim culture began to develop.

The Mamluk Sultanate ultimately became a vassal state of the Ottoman Empire, in the wake of campaigns waged by Selim I in the 16th century.

Early modern period

In 1516 the Ottoman Turks occupied Palestine.[61] The country became part of the Ottoman Empire. Constantinople appointed local governors. Public works, including the city walls, were rebuilt in Jerusalem by Suleiman the Magnificent in 1537. An area around Tiberias was given to Don Joseph Nasi for a Jewish enclave.
Following the expulsions from Spain, the Jewish population of Palestine rose to around 25%
(includes non-Ottoman citizens, excludes Bedouin) and regained its former stronghold of Eastern Galilee.
That ended in 1660 when they were massacred at Safed and Jerusalem. During the reign of Dahar al Omar, Pasha of the Galilee, Jews from Ukraine began to resettle Tiberias.
[.....]

History of the Jews and Judaism in the Land of Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[MUCH more from Middle Ages. Jews NEVER completely Left , always maintaining a presence]

The 16th-century nevertheless saw a resurgence of Jewish life in Palestine. Palestinian rabbis were instrumental producing a universally accepted manual of Jewish law and some of the most beautiful liturgical poems. Much of this activity occurred at Safed which had become a spiritual centre, a haven for mystics. Joseph Karo's comprehensive guide to Jewish law, the Shulchan Aruch, was considered so authoritative that the variant customs of German-Polish Jewry were merely added as supplement glosses.[126] Some of the most celebrated hymns were written at in Safed by poets such as Israel Najara and Solomon Alkabetz.[127] The town was also a centre of Jewish mysticism, notable kabbalists included Moses Cordovero and the German-born Naphtali Hertz ben Jacob Elhanan.[128][129][130] A new method of understanding the kabbalah was developed by Palestinian mysticIsaac Luria, and espoused by his student Chaim Vital. In Safed, the Jews developed a number of branches of trade, especially in grain, spices, textiles and dyeing. In 1577, a Hebrew printing press was established in Safed. The 8,000 or 10,000 Jews in Safed in 1555 grew to 20,000 or 30,000 by the end of the century.

Old Yishuv

Jewish life in the Land of Israel under Ottomanrule
Key events

• Aliya of Nachmanides (1267)
• Hebron and Safed massacres (1517)
• Revival of Tiberias (1563)
• Sack of Tiberias (1660)
• Hebron massacre (1834)
• Safed attack (1838)
• Jerusalem expansion
• Moshavot

Key figures

• Ishtori Haparchi (d. 1313)
• Joseph Saragossi (d. 1507)
• Obadiah MiBartenura (d. 1515)
• Levi ibn Habib (d. 1545)
• Jacob Berab (d. 1546)
• Joseph Nasi (d. 1579)
• Moses Galante (d. 1689)
• Moses ibn Habib (d. 1696)
• Yehuda he-Hasid (d. 1700)
• Haim Abulafia (d. 1744)
• Menachem Mendel (d. 1788)
• Haim Farhi (d. 1820)
• Jacob Saphir (d. 1886)
• Haim Aharon Valero (d. 1923)

Economy

• Etrog cultivation
• Winemaking
• Banking
• Printing
• Kosher soap production

Philanthropy

• Kollel
• Halukka
  • Montefiore
  • Judah Touro

Communities

• Musta'arabim
• Sephardim
• Perushim
• Hasidim

• Jerusalem
  • Mea Shearim
  • Mishkenot Sha'ananim
• Hebron
• Safed
• Tiberias
• Jaffa
• Haifa
• Peki'in
• Acco
• Shechem
• Gaza
• Kafr Yasif
• Shefa-'Amr
• Petach Tikva

Synagogues

• Great Academy of Paris (1258)
• Ramban (1267)
• Abuhav (1490s)
• Abraham Avinu (1540)
• Ari (1570s)
• Johanan ben Zakai (1600s)
• Hurva (1700)
• Tifereth Israel (1872)
• [..........]

In around 1563, Joseph Nasi secured permission from Sultan Selim II to acquire Tiberias and seven surrounding villages to create a Jewish city-state.[131] He hoped that large numbers of Jewish refugees and Marranos would settle there, free from fear and oppression; indeed, the persecuted Jews of Cori, Italy, numbering about 200 souls, decided to emigrate to Tiberias.[132][133] Nasi had the walls of the town rebuilt by 1564 and attempted to turn it into a self-sufficient textile manufacturing center by planting mulberry trees for the cultivation of silk. Nevertheless, a number of factors during the following years contributed to the plan's ultimate failure. Nasi's aunt, Doña Gracia Mendes Nasi supported a yeshiva in the town for many years until her death in 1569.[134]

In 1567, a Yemenite scholar and Rabbi, Zechariah Dhahiri, visited Safedand wrote of his experiences in a book entitled Sefer Ha-Musar. His vivid descriptions of the town Safed and of Rabbi Joseph Karo’s yeshiva are of primary importance to historians, seeing that they are a first-hand account of these places, and the only extant account which describes the yeshivaof the great Sephardic Rabbi, Joseph Karo.[135]

In 1576, the Jewish community of Safed faced an expulsion order: 1,000 prosperous families were to be deported to Cyprus, "for the good of the said island", with another 500 the following year.[136] The order was later rescinded due to the realisation of the financial gains of Jewish rental income.[137] In 1586, the Jews of Istanbul agreed to build a fortified khanto provide a refuge for Safed's Jews against "night bandits and armed thieves."[136]

In 1569, the Radbaz moved to Jerusalem, but soon moved to Safed to escape the high taxes imposed on Jews by the authorities.

In 1610, the Yochanan ben Zakai Synagogue in Jerusalem was completed.[138] It became the main synagogue of the Sephardic Jews, the place where their chief rabbi was invested. The adjacent study hall which had been added by 1625 later became the Synagogue of Elijah the Prophet.[138]
[,,,,,,]​

 

[RoccoR]

montelatici, et al,

Again, this is a perspective --- yet it is only partially true.

Jews had never lived in Palestine for millennia. They invaded the area and were quickly removed by the Assyrians.

(COMMENT)

It is probably more accurate to say:

The Arab Palestinians have no history of sovereign control for nearly a 1000 years. The Israelis were encouraged to migrate under the authority of the Allied Powers and the assigned Mandatory Power.​

• The Arab Palestinian attempted to usurp the authority granted to the Allied Powers under the Treaty of Lausanne (Article 16).
• The Arab Palestine opposed the Allied Powers in The Great War (WWI).
• The Arab Palestinian opposed the Allied Powers in World War II.

Why should the Arab Palestinian be rewarded for their opposition to the Allied Powers?

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Billo_Really]

Then Boston is right. The way to solve the problem is to expel as many of the Arab Muslim Palestinians as possible. Those remaining will adopt the Jewish language, faith and culture and in a hundred years or so Israel will be 100% Jewish. And Arab Muslim Palestinians will be nothing but foreign colonists.

Is that what you call the Jewish caliphate?

 

[Challenger]

Land that the Jewish people had been expelled from and ethnically cleansed from

Prove it; using acedemic, non-Biblical/Quranic sources.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

Land that the Jewish people had been expelled from and ethnically cleansed from

Prove it; using acedemic, non-Biblical/Quranic sources.

Don't you know what happened in the year 70 of the Common Era?

 

[Challenger]

Land that the Jewish people had been expelled from and ethnically cleansed from

Prove it; using acedemic, non-Biblical/Quranic sources.

Don't you know what happened in the year 70 of the Common Era?

Yes.
According to Josephus' "Wars of the Jews", 6:9 anything between 1,100,000-2,700,000 Jewish cultists along with other inhabitants of the city who were just unlucky to be in the wrong place when the Romans arriveddied during the seige of their cult centre, Jerusalem. This population may well have been almost the entire Jewish population of Judea as Jerusalem was never that large a city and Josephus mentioned that the majority were Jewish cultists who had come from all around the region to celebrate their Passover rituals at the Temple, the cult centre. Of the 97,000 survivors of the siege and sack, according to Josephus, 11,000 starved to death while prisoners, a further 2,000 committed suicide. An unspecified but large number were sold to the mines in Egypt and another unspecified, but significant number were distributed around the empire's various amphitheatres to be exposed to wild animals or executed in other ways as the locals saw fit. The remainder were either killed, as in the very young or elderly, reserved for the Triumph in Rome, or sold off in local slave markets to pay for the war.

That is of course if you believe Josephus' figures to be accurate and not inflated to curry favour with his patrons, the Flavians.

 

[Phoenall]

I have a Mandate question and this would be the thread to ask it. The history seems so convoluted I can't find a straight answer from unbiased sources.

In various debates I've heard claimed that ALL of "Palestine" was given to the Jews by the Mandate, therefore the Palestinians can or should be sent to Jordan. Yet, when Israel declared independence - it did so with specific borders that are not the Mandate's. It then took more territory when it won a war waged against it. That territory is what is called "Occupied Territories" or, more recently by historical revisionists "disputed territories". What I'm wondering is, in terms of international law - what really belongs to Israel, and how much legal force does the mandate wield? Was the mandate later over-ruled by other agreements? RoccoR

You are confusing the mandate of Palestine to the UN partition plan which are two separate things. The mandate sets out in stone the boundaries of the Jewish and arab sections of Palestine, due to concerns on there being a wholly Jewish Palestine. The land granted to the Jews was from the Jordan river to the Mediterranean sea and included the west bank, Jerusalem, gaza and the Golan heights. Israel was declared inside the 1923 mandate boundaries, and the arab muslims refused to be a party so lost the chance of taking control of the other parts. Israel has never taken any land that was not always theirs to begin with, and only rabid Jew haters say that they did this after the war of 1967. It has occupied the land under the terms of the Geneva conventions since 1967, it has tot taken it like Jordan did in 1949.

Under International law the parcel of land called Jewish Palestine in the LoN treaties and delineated in the mandate of Palestine belongs to the Jews. The mandate being an international treaty became international law and has never been over ruled by any subsequent international law. The UN only gives recommendations, it very rarely issues International laws

 

[Phoenall]

Land that the Jewish people had been expelled from and ethnically cleansed from

Prove it; using acedemic, non-Biblical/Quranic sources.

Don't you know what happened in the year 70 of the Common Era?

Yes.
According to Josephus' "Wars of the Jews", 6:9 anything between 1,100,000-2,700,000 Jewish cultists along with other inhabitants of the city who were just unlucky to be in the wrong place when the Romans arriveddied during the seige of their cult centre, Jerusalem. This population may well have been almost the entire Jewish population of Judea as Jerusalem was never that large a city and Josephus mentioned that the majority were Jewish cultists who had come from all around the region to celebrate their Passover rituals at the Temple, the cult centre. Of the 97,000 survivors of the siege and sack, according to Josephus, 11,000 starved to death while prisoners, a further 2,000 committed suicide. An unspecified but large number were sold to the mines in Egypt and another unspecified, but significant number were distributed around the empire's various amphitheatres to be exposed to wild animals or executed in other ways as the locals saw fit. The remainder were either killed, as in the very young or elderly, reserved for the Triumph in Rome, or sold off in local slave markets to pay for the war.

That is of course if you believe Josephus' figures to be accurate and not inflated to curry favour with his patrons, the Flavians.

WHY DO YOU LIE as I cant find any mention of Jewish cultists in any of the references you make. Is this because you are a hostile racist POS islamonazi terrorist. Shows that you don't have a leg to stand on with your claims when you have to demonise the Jews as you do to curry favour