The obligations of non-Jews, per Judaism

[dilloduck]

There is plenty of overt anti-Jewish and Anti-Gentile sentiment in this world, folks.

We can all easily find evidence of it.

Some Jews are paranoid?

Damned right they are.

(Anne) frankly, who can blame them?

I do not know a single Jew, or Black man or White man, (I don't know anyone who is Asian, to be honest) who doesn't have some story about how they were the victims of someone's else's prejudice.

I have seen prejudice against pretty much every race, or ethnic, or religion you can imagine. I have suffered some of it myself.

I have also seen and known entirely decent people from those same groups, too.

I prefer to reserve my precious limited capacity for loathing and hostility for those individual people who've fucked with me personally.

Hatred for people I don't even know is just too much of a burden for me to carry though life.

Those of you carrying that weight, and here I speak with some authority?

Giving it up that burden is a liberating experience which I strongly advise some of you to try to do if you can manage it.

YOU do not NOT represent your whole race or ethnic, and frankly the person who is screwing with you does NOT either.

How come there isn't a white caucus in congress ?

 

[Ravi]

How come there isn't a white caucus in congress ?

There is no reason there can't be one. Personally, I'd love to see one, maybe you can get one started? I'd really love to know the agenda.

 

[dilloduck]

There is no reason there can't be one. Personally, I'd love to see one, maybe you can get one started? I'd really love to know the agenda.

There isn't one because the second anyone proposed it it would be shredded as an evil racist organization and likened to the KKK.

 

[Ravi]

Fear isn't exactly a position of strength.

btw, I think it would be racist as well, simply because the white people in this country are the majority. But still, white people are certainly welcome to form their own caucus.

 

[dilloduck]

Fear isn't exactly a position of strength.

btw, I think it would be racist as well, simply because the white people in this country are the majority. But still, white people are certainly welcome to form their own caucus.

No---it's not. Makes you wonder what whites are so afraid of.

 

[Kim]

Wow, this discussion has gotten pretty heated. Obligations of non-Jews per Judaism? For a partial discussion on the 7 instructions God gave to Gentiles, see the other thread here "Anyone have Noahide questions..." On that thread, someone asked WHY DOES GOD (the Bible) DIFFERENTIATE BETWEEN JEWS AND GENTILES.? I posted a long response on the other thread, but it looks like it might pertain to this thread, too.

That is a really good question. Based on years of conversations with others, I believe that most people don’t know the answer. First, I want to remind you that I am not Jewish.

Millions of people share two foundational beliefs: 1) a belief in God, and 2) that this God is the God revealed in the pages of the Bible (specifically, the Tanakh / Old Testament). Logically, you would think that this would unify all these people into one single religion.

Instead, we ended up with the “Three Monotheistic Faiths” of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam (which developed in that order), and multiple denominations within each of them. We all believe in the same God. We all started with the same texts called the Tanakh in Judaism (the Old Testament in Christianity). Christians misunderstood the Tanakh, so they added the New Testament. Islam’s Koran begins with the text of the Tanakh, but then, the authors made changes to some of the text and then added texts of their own, just as Christians had done.

I think there are two main reasons for this: 1) Most people read a translation of the Bible (filled with translation errors) instead of the original language of the text, and 2) Most people don’t understand why God differentiates between Israel (Jews) and the rest of humanity.

Starting with Abraham, God begins to give specific commandments that He/she tells Abraham to obey, but does not require of all other people on earth – starting with male circumcision. Every male living with Abraham had to be circumcised, too. At this point, Abraham was already pretty old and Ishmael (his son by Hagar, his wife Sarah’s servant) was 13 years old. Starting that day, any male born of Abraham’s household was to be circumcised on the 8th day after birth. The Bible states that circumcision is to be a sign of the everlasting (permanent) covenant (agreement) between God and Abraham, a physical sign that because Abraham agreed to obey God (no matter how difficult), God would make Abraham’s physical line a “great” nation that would serve as a blessing to all of humanity, aka “a light unto the nations”.

The commandments given to Abraham (and later, to a specified portion of his physical lineage, Israel/Jews) would be difficult to obey – too difficult to expect of all humanity. Abraham’s household was large for a single household, but small enough for Abraham to ensure that every male was circumcised. Israel has always been a small nation, compared to other nations. Logically, the smaller the group of people, the easier it is to unite them for a single purpose. Commandments that were difficult and specific only to this group of people would not only differentiate them from others but would also serve to unite them. Otherwise, human nature being what it is, these people would eventually go off in all directions and blend into other nations instead of remaining one single nation.

So, the purpose of differentiating Israel (Jews) from the rest of humanity (Gentiles) was so that God could prepare them and maintain this group’s ability to fulfill a specific purpose for the benefit of all humanity. The purpose God gave them was to be the “people of the book”, the caretakers of the Bible – the information God gave us via Israel that would help all of us to live more fulfilling, less destructive, more compassionate lives. This is what is meant by giving Israel the job of being a “light to the nations.”

This action of God, to differentiate (not discriminate) between Jews and Gentiles is akin to a software company forming a department whose sole purpose is to write an instruction manual. All the employees were hired by the company; so obviously, all the people were “chosen” / considered worthy of being employees. But it only takes a few people – a small department – to get the instruction manual written. This department’s people are neither superior nor inferior to the rest of the employees. They were simply given a task to do, so they do it, because that’s what their boss asked them to do.

So, the commandments specific to Israel have served to set them apart, like a committee or department. The task they are given is to keep the text of the Bible (Tanakh) and all copies made of it as free of error as humanly possible so that it is a reliable source available to all humanity in all generations. Because of how seriously they have taken this charge, the 2,000 year old Hebrew-language scroll of the biblical book of Isaiah – on display in a museum in Israel – is 99.99 % identical to the Hebrew text I have in my home today. So, I’d say they do a very good job as the “people of the book.” In comparison, Christians and Muslims throughout the centuries have not shown this level of respect for the same texts. That’s understandable because they were not enabled to perform this task; it wasn’t their job. The Bible states that the “law” (Bible) shall come forth from Zion (Israel/Jews), not from anyone else.

But to serve as a “light to the nations” Israel would have to go a step further, to read, study the intricacies, and form solid textual-based hypotheses that stand up to scrutiny by other scholars of the text. Then, they must be able to apply this knowledge to new situations as they present themselves, or to newly discovered information not previously available for discussion. Not all Jewish people have this level of knowledge, so those who cannot reach this level help support capable scholars in each generation. A great deal of this study and scholarly debate and decision making has been recorded and is available today in text known as the “Oral Law.” In order to become an (Orthodox) rabbi, a person must learn both the Tanakh and the Oral Law, so that they can answer questions and teach others…including Gentiles (Noahides) like me, regarding biblical instructions and wisdom that apply to me.

I think a big reason that so many people are bothered about God differentiating between Jews and Gentiles is that they feel “slighted” as if God is saying that Jews are superior to Gentiles. But there is no favoritism, here. The “laws” God gave only to Israel are difficult to observe; I’m not jealous that they don’t apply to me; I’m relieved. And due to the common “fear of the stranger,” Jews have suffered immensely over the centuries at the hands of others simply because the way of life God gave them renders them “different” or “strange” to others. The common English translation of a biblical passage calls Israel God’s “special treasure.” No wonder some people get angry or jealous when they read that passage. But the correct translation is actually that Israel is God’s “peculiar” treasure. That means that, although all of humanity is God’s treasure, Israel is “peculiar” which means odd or different. It does not say Israel is superior in any way. And there are other passages that send a clear message to Israel that they are not better people than anyone else. Incorrect translations of biblical texts – and there are many – continue to cause great harm to the Jewish people and continue to cause division.

 

[dilloduck]

Wow, this discussion has gotten pretty heated. Obligations of non-Jews per Judaism? For a partial discussion on the 7 instructions God gave to Gentiles, see the other thread here "Anyone have Noahide questions..." On that thread, someone asked WHY DOES GOD (the Bible) DIFFERENTIATE BETWEEN JEWS AND GENTILES.? I posted a long response on the other thread, but it looks like it might pertain to this thread, too.

That is a really good question. Based on years of conversations with others, I believe that most people don’t know the answer. First, I want to remind you that I am not Jewish.

Millions of people share two foundational beliefs: 1) a belief in God, and 2) that this God is the God revealed in the pages of the Bible (specifically, the Tanakh / Old Testament). Logically, you would think that this would unify all these people into one single religion.

Instead, we ended up with the “Three Monotheistic Faiths” of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam (which developed in that order), and multiple denominations within each of them. We all believe in the same God. We all started with the same texts called the Tanakh in Judaism (the Old Testament in Christianity). Christians misunderstood the Tanakh, so they added the New Testament. Islam’s Koran begins with the text of the Tanakh, but then, the authors made changes to some of the text and then added texts of their own, just as Christians had done.

I think there are two main reasons for this: 1) Most people read a translation of the Bible (filled with translation errors) instead of the original language of the text, and 2) Most people don’t understand why God differentiates between Israel (Jews) and the rest of humanity.

Starting with Abraham, God begins to give specific commandments that He/she tells Abraham to obey, but does not require of all other people on earth – starting with male circumcision. Every male living with Abraham had to be circumcised, too. At this point, Abraham was already pretty old and Ishmael (his son by Hagar, his wife Sarah’s servant) was 13 years old. Starting that day, any male born of Abraham’s household was to be circumcised on the 8th day after birth. The Bible states that circumcision is to be a sign of the everlasting (permanent) covenant (agreement) between God and Abraham, a physical sign that because Abraham agreed to obey God (no matter how difficult), God would make Abraham’s physical line a “great” nation that would serve as a blessing to all of humanity, aka “a light unto the nations”.

The commandments given to Abraham (and later, to a specified portion of his physical lineage, Israel/Jews) would be difficult to obey – too difficult to expect of all humanity. Abraham’s household was large for a single household, but small enough for Abraham to ensure that every male was circumcised. Israel has always been a small nation, compared to other nations. Logically, the smaller the group of people, the easier it is to unite them for a single purpose. Commandments that were difficult and specific only to this group of people would not only differentiate them from others but would also serve to unite them. Otherwise, human nature being what it is, these people would eventually go off in all directions and blend into other nations instead of remaining one single nation.

So, the purpose of differentiating Israel (Jews) from the rest of humanity (Gentiles) was so that God could prepare them and maintain this group’s ability to fulfill a specific purpose for the benefit of all humanity. The purpose God gave them was to be the “people of the book”, the caretakers of the Bible – the information God gave us via Israel that would help all of us to live more fulfilling, less destructive, more compassionate lives. This is what is meant by giving Israel the job of being a “light to the nations.”

This action of God, to differentiate (not discriminate) between Jews and Gentiles is akin to a software company forming a department whose sole purpose is to write an instruction manual. All the employees were hired by the company; so obviously, all the people were “chosen” / considered worthy of being employees. But it only takes a few people – a small department – to get the instruction manual written. This department’s people are neither superior nor inferior to the rest of the employees. They were simply given a task to do, so they do it, because that’s what their boss asked them to do.

So, the commandments specific to Israel have served to set them apart, like a committee or department. The task they are given is to keep the text of the Bible (Tanakh) and all copies made of it as free of error as humanly possible so that it is a reliable source available to all humanity in all generations. Because of how seriously they have taken this charge, the 2,000 year old Hebrew-language scroll of the biblical book of Isaiah – on display in a museum in Israel – is 99.99 % identical to the Hebrew text I have in my home today. So, I’d say they do a very good job as the “people of the book.” In comparison, Christians and Muslims throughout the centuries have not shown this level of respect for the same texts. That’s understandable because they were not enabled to perform this task; it wasn’t their job. The Bible states that the “law” (Bible) shall come forth from Zion (Israel/Jews), not from anyone else.

But to serve as a “light to the nations” Israel would have to go a step further, to read, study the intricacies, and form solid textual-based hypotheses that stand up to scrutiny by other scholars of the text. Then, they must be able to apply this knowledge to new situations as they present themselves, or to newly discovered information not previously available for discussion. Not all Jewish people have this level of knowledge, so those who cannot reach this level help support capable scholars in each generation. A great deal of this study and scholarly debate and decision making has been recorded and is available today in text known as the “Oral Law.” In order to become an (Orthodox) rabbi, a person must learn both the Tanakh and the Oral Law, so that they can answer questions and teach others…including Gentiles (Noahides) like me, regarding biblical instructions and wisdom that apply to me.

I think a big reason that so many people are bothered about God differentiating between Jews and Gentiles is that they feel “slighted” as if God is saying that Jews are superior to Gentiles. But there is no favoritism, here. The “laws” God gave only to Israel are difficult to observe; I’m not jealous that they don’t apply to me; I’m relieved. And due to the common “fear of the stranger,” Jews have suffered immensely over the centuries at the hands of others simply because the way of life God gave them renders them “different” or “strange” to others. The common English translation of a biblical passage calls Israel God’s “special treasure.” No wonder some people get angry or jealous when they read that passage. But the correct translation is actually that Israel is God’s “peculiar” treasure. That means that, although all of humanity is God’s treasure, Israel is “peculiar” which means odd or different. It does not say Israel is superior in any way. And there are other passages that send a clear message to Israel that they are not better people than anyone else. Incorrect translations of biblical texts – and there are many – continue to cause great harm to the Jewish people and continue to cause division.

and I assume only a Jew could determine which interpretations are correct and which are not ?

 

[Kim]

and I assume only a Jew could determine which interpretations are correct and which are not ?

Not at all. Anyone who knows the Hebrew language, can read the original text instead of someone's translation.

 

[editec]

What are the obligation to Jews or Christians or Moslems for atheists?

Not to laugh in their faces?

 

[dilloduck]

Not at all. Anyone who knows the Hebrew language, can read the original text instead of someone's translation.

Of course anyone can read it. Who determines what it 'officially' means ?

 

[editec]

How come there isn't a white caucus in congress ?

History

 

[dilloduck]

History

How about attitude ?

 

[editec]

How about attitude ?

Sure, but only by extension of Congressional history.

History is really the key as to why there are Black and Woman's (and now hispanic?) caucuses in Congress.

The Dixiecrats USED to be that White caucus you seem to be in favor of starting up again, of course.

Congress was exclusively the domain of White Males most of the time.

Given that history, White males in Congress don't feel the need of the support of other Whites males in Congress to make their views known.

 

[Kim]

Of course anyone can read it. Who determines what it 'officially' means ?

If I want to translate French poetry, I ask someone who knows more of the French language than I do.

If I want to translate a Hebrew text, I ask someone who knows more of the Hebrew language than I do.

Does that really answer your question, though?

 

[dilloduck]

If I want to translate French poetry, I ask someone who knows more of the French language than I do.

If I want to translate a Hebrew text, I ask someone who knows more of the Hebrew language than I do.

Does that really answer your question, though?

no-----if I read hebrew why would I need to ask anyone anything?

 

[Kim]

no-----if I read hebrew why would I need to ask anyone anything?

Well, you are less likely to have to ask anyone. By the way, I should have mentioned that when I read an English translation of the Bible, personally, I have found that the most accurate translation is the one from JPS - Jewish Publication Society. It is simply titled TANAKH.

There are actually a lot of reasons I still have to ask questions or discuss finer points with others. I ask Orthodox rabbis because they are specialists in the Bible, in the same way I don't ask my MD questions that I need a cornea specialist to answer. And when the rabbi doesn't know the answer or how it might apply to some newly discovered knowledge or a new situation, that rabbi asks a scholar who is more learned that he is and gets back to me with the answer.

The Tanakh has many "levels" of knowledge. Each time I read it, I notice something that I didn't notice before. Sometimes, that means I have an "oh, I get it, now!" moment. The more I read the whole thing, the easier it is for me to place what is said in context. Sometimes, I study other subjects - archaeology, astrology, science, history - and that helps me understand what the text is saying. For instance, if I know how people lived in Abraham's time, their culture and common practices or even how they dressed, it helps me understand what Abraham was doing.

For thousands of years, Jewish scholars have been studying these texts, debating what they meant if it wasn't immediately clear, applying Biblical text to new situations and explaining the whys and how they came to these conclusions. The deeper the levels I am able to comprehend on my own, the more valuable their scholarship becomes to me.

You asked why you would need to ask questions, if you could read the Hebrew for yourself. I can read the English text of an advanced Physics textbook from cover to cover, but because I don't have a sufficient knowledge of Physics, I cannot read a Physics textbook written at this level. If I really WANT to understand it, I first have to make the time investment to study the basics, then more in depth levels, then read this particular book. I have found that reading the Bible is kind of like that.

I have found that the problem with most people who debate Bible topics is that they don't know the Bible any better than I know Physics. So, their debate does not make sense.

O.k. I'm rambling now. Sorry.

 

[dilloduck]

Well, you are less likely to have to ask anyone. By the way, I should have mentioned that when I read an English translation of the Bible, personally, I have found that the most accurate translation is the one from JPS - Jewish Publication Society. It is simply titled TANAKH.

There are actually a lot of reasons I still have to ask questions or discuss finer points with others. I ask Orthodox rabbis because they are specialists in the Bible, in the same way I don't ask my MD questions that I need a cornea specialist to answer. And when the rabbi doesn't know the answer or how it might apply to some newly discovered knowledge or a new situation, that rabbi asks a scholar who is more learned that he is and gets back to me with the answer.

The Tanakh has many "levels" of knowledge. Each time I read it, I notice something that I didn't notice before. Sometimes, that means I have an "oh, I get it, now!" moment. The more I read the whole thing, the easier it is for me to place what is said in context. Sometimes, I study other subjects - archaeology, astrology, science, history - and that helps me understand what the text is saying. For instance, if I know how people lived in Abraham's time, their culture and common practices or even how they dressed, it helps me understand what Abraham was doing.

For thousands of years, Jewish scholars have been studying these texts, debating what they meant if it wasn't immediately clear, applying Biblical text to new situations and explaining the whys and how they came to these conclusions. The deeper the levels I am able to comprehend on my own, the more valuable their scholarship becomes to me.

You asked why you would need to ask questions, if you could read the Hebrew for yourself. I can read the English text of an advanced Physics textbook from cover to cover, but because I don't have a sufficient knowledge of Physics, I cannot read a Physics textbook written at this level. If I really WANT to understand it, I first have to make the time investment to study the basics, then more in depth levels, then read this particular book. I have found that reading the Bible is kind of like that.

I have found that the problem with most people who debate Bible topics is that they don't know the Bible any better than I know Physics. So, their debate does not make sense.

O.k. I'm rambling now. Sorry.

gotcha---only Jewish bible scholars can really know what the rules are.

 

[editec]

gotcha---only Jewish bible scholars can really know what the rules are.

Oh for God's sakes, give it a rest.

If I want an interptation of the Elders of Zion, I'll ask a NAZI.

If I wanted (not likely but if) clarification of something originally written in ancient Hebrew, I'd ask somebody who was and spoke Hebrew, and they would likely be who? A Rabbi

This confuses you why?

 

[Kim]

gotcha---only Jewish bible scholars can really know what the rules are.

I heard someone say to get a teacher(s) for yourself and be a teacher for someone else. I love to teach my grandchildren. And I enjoy listening to and conversing with a teacher who really knows his/her stuff. When I went back to school (for more accounting knowledge), I experienced both sides & I really enjoyed it.

The only reason that Jewish bible scholars know more than Gentile scholars is because they know Hebrew, they devoted a lot more of their lives to studying, and they study the works of centuries of great scholars.

However, most of what I know today has been from my own reading & studying the Bible, and anyone can do that.

 

[Kim]

Oh for God's sakes, give it a rest.

If I want an interptation of the Elders of Zion, I'll ask a NAZI.

If I wanted (not likely but if) clarification of something originally written in ancient Hebrew, I'd ask somebody who was and spoke Hebrew, and they would likely be who? A Rabbi

This confuses you why?

Hi, I was just curious if you've ever read the Bible or have any interest in it?