The NEWER Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate

[Indeependent]

Hello fellow posters,

We seem to be straying away from the point of this thread.
It is turning into the thread which used to be available at the top about the two state solution.

I found this thread still available where post 1948 can be discussed. Let us all meet there:

Majority of Palestinians now oppose two-state solution, new poll finds

A clear majority of Palestinians in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip oppose a two-state solution to end their struggle with Israel, according to a poll released on Wednesday. Sixty percent of those polled, including 55% in the West Bank and 68% in Gaza, reject permanently accepting Israel’s...

www.usmessageboard.com

As for self determination for the Arabs pre 1948, we can all discuss the 1937 and 1947 proposals for partition of what was left of the Mandate for Palestine after 78% was given to the Hashemites, and whether the Arab leaders were looking for what was the best for the Arab population or if they were looking for something else.

Were the Arab leaders looking for Justice for the Arabs who lived there at the time, or were they looking for something else altogether?

What happened in 1920, 1921, 1929, 1936 to 1939 and before Israel declared Independence?

How could the Arab leaders have helped the Arab population achieve self determination from 1920 on ?

Did the Arab leaders actions, since 1920, help or hinder the aspirations of two states, one Jewish and one Arab? Was there such an aspiration before May 1948?

Well , what we can be sure of is that , given the lack of crystal balls on the planet , the Arab rejection of a Jewish homeland in Palestine was both understandable and reasonable.

I can't recall a situation when the native population eagerly supported their own dispossession and displacement at the hands on recently arrived immigrants from foreign lands with a completely different culture.

Anyone think of where that has ever happened just to give an exception to the rule ?

FYI, a ton of info.

HOME - 1948

Palestine - Israel History

www.1948.org.uk

FYI, a ton of misinformation. The propagandists seem to share your befuddlement about a geographic area. From the “about” section: OUR STATEMENT - 1948

“How was it that one nation, Palestine, which was under the protection of the League of Nations after WW1...”

The Magical Kingdom of Pal’istan was one nation?

When did that happen?

Palestine’s legal position under International Law was clear: The United Kingdom was mandated Palestine in one piece. Article 5 of the Mandate required the Mandatory Power (the UK) to ensure that "no Palestine territory shall be ceded or leased to, or in any way, placed under the control of the government of any foreign power".

Partition and the Law - 1948

www.1948.org.uk

During the term of the Mandate for Palestine, that was the case. You failed to notice that the Mandate ended at midnight on 14 May, 1948. The Mandate did not / does not extend in perpetuity.

Cutting and pasting a snippet from a blog without understanding the greater context (or intending to mislead about that context), is a failed argument.

When the Mandate ended, there were no lingering requirements that survived the ending of the Mandate.

You know full well Tinmore is mentally ill.

 

[Hollie]

Hello fellow posters,

We seem to be straying away from the point of this thread.
It is turning into the thread which used to be available at the top about the two state solution.

I found this thread still available where post 1948 can be discussed. Let us all meet there:

Majority of Palestinians now oppose two-state solution, new poll finds

A clear majority of Palestinians in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip oppose a two-state solution to end their struggle with Israel, according to a poll released on Wednesday. Sixty percent of those polled, including 55% in the West Bank and 68% in Gaza, reject permanently accepting Israel’s...

www.usmessageboard.com

As for self determination for the Arabs pre 1948, we can all discuss the 1937 and 1947 proposals for partition of what was left of the Mandate for Palestine after 78% was given to the Hashemites, and whether the Arab leaders were looking for what was the best for the Arab population or if they were looking for something else.

Were the Arab leaders looking for Justice for the Arabs who lived there at the time, or were they looking for something else altogether?

What happened in 1920, 1921, 1929, 1936 to 1939 and before Israel declared Independence?

How could the Arab leaders have helped the Arab population achieve self determination from 1920 on ?

Did the Arab leaders actions, since 1920, help or hinder the aspirations of two states, one Jewish and one Arab? Was there such an aspiration before May 1948?

Well , what we can be sure of is that , given the lack of crystal balls on the planet , the Arab rejection of a Jewish homeland in Palestine was both understandable and reasonable.

I can't recall a situation when the native population eagerly supported their own dispossession and displacement at the hands on recently arrived immigrants from foreign lands with a completely different culture.

Anyone think of where that has ever happened just to give an exception to the rule ?

FYI, a ton of info.

HOME - 1948

Palestine - Israel History

www.1948.org.uk

FYI, a ton of misinformation. The propagandists seem to share your befuddlement about a geographic area. From the “about” section: OUR STATEMENT - 1948

“How was it that one nation, Palestine, which was under the protection of the League of Nations after WW1...”

The Magical Kingdom of Pal’istan was one nation?

When did that happen?

Palestine’s legal position under International Law was clear: The United Kingdom was mandated Palestine in one piece. Article 5 of the Mandate required the Mandatory Power (the UK) to ensure that "no Palestine territory shall be ceded or leased to, or in any way, placed under the control of the government of any foreign power".

Partition and the Law - 1948

www.1948.org.uk

During the term of the Mandate for Palestine, that was the case. You failed to notice that the Mandate ended at midnight on 14 May, 1948. The Mandate did not / does not extend in perpetuity.

Cutting and pasting a snippet from a blog without understanding the greater context (or intending to mislead about that context), is a failed argument.

When the Mandate ended, there were no lingering requirements that survived the ending of the Mandate.

You know full well Tinmore is mentally ill.

After ten years of manipulating, re-writing and falsifying history, he’s still using the same manipulated, re-written and falsified arguments to press his Islamist agenda.

 

[Indeependent]

Hello fellow posters,

We seem to be straying away from the point of this thread.
It is turning into the thread which used to be available at the top about the two state solution.

I found this thread still available where post 1948 can be discussed. Let us all meet there:

Majority of Palestinians now oppose two-state solution, new poll finds

A clear majority of Palestinians in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip oppose a two-state solution to end their struggle with Israel, according to a poll released on Wednesday. Sixty percent of those polled, including 55% in the West Bank and 68% in Gaza, reject permanently accepting Israel’s...

www.usmessageboard.com

As for self determination for the Arabs pre 1948, we can all discuss the 1937 and 1947 proposals for partition of what was left of the Mandate for Palestine after 78% was given to the Hashemites, and whether the Arab leaders were looking for what was the best for the Arab population or if they were looking for something else.

Were the Arab leaders looking for Justice for the Arabs who lived there at the time, or were they looking for something else altogether?

What happened in 1920, 1921, 1929, 1936 to 1939 and before Israel declared Independence?

How could the Arab leaders have helped the Arab population achieve self determination from 1920 on ?

Did the Arab leaders actions, since 1920, help or hinder the aspirations of two states, one Jewish and one Arab? Was there such an aspiration before May 1948?

Well , what we can be sure of is that , given the lack of crystal balls on the planet , the Arab rejection of a Jewish homeland in Palestine was both understandable and reasonable.

I can't recall a situation when the native population eagerly supported their own dispossession and displacement at the hands on recently arrived immigrants from foreign lands with a completely different culture.

Anyone think of where that has ever happened just to give an exception to the rule ?

FYI, a ton of info.

HOME - 1948

Palestine - Israel History

www.1948.org.uk

FYI, a ton of misinformation. The propagandists seem to share your befuddlement about a geographic area. From the “about” section: OUR STATEMENT - 1948

“How was it that one nation, Palestine, which was under the protection of the League of Nations after WW1...”

The Magical Kingdom of Pal’istan was one nation?

When did that happen?

Palestine’s legal position under International Law was clear: The United Kingdom was mandated Palestine in one piece. Article 5 of the Mandate required the Mandatory Power (the UK) to ensure that "no Palestine territory shall be ceded or leased to, or in any way, placed under the control of the government of any foreign power".

Partition and the Law - 1948

www.1948.org.uk

During the term of the Mandate for Palestine, that was the case. You failed to notice that the Mandate ended at midnight on 14 May, 1948. The Mandate did not / does not extend in perpetuity.

Cutting and pasting a snippet from a blog without understanding the greater context (or intending to mislead about that context), is a failed argument.

When the Mandate ended, there were no lingering requirements that survived the ending of the Mandate.

You know full well Tinmore is mentally ill.

After ten years of manipulating, re-writing and falsifying history, he’s still using the same manipulated, re-written and falsified arguments to press his Islamist agenda.

Mental illness.

 

[Spartacactcus]

Nope. Actually, you do not get accused of being an antisemite because you express support for Palestinian self-determination.

Yes you do and I have. In fact if we look at your dictates and disagree with any of them , by your own admission, you will play the " you hate Jews " card.

More importantly if I ask you to apply universal standards to others and you don't, and I can show you don't ( happens all the time in this conflict and in this very post of yours ) do I get to call you an Islamophobe or anti Arab bigot ?

 

[Shusha]

Nope. Actually, you do not get accused of being an antisemite because you express support for Palestinian self-determination.

Yes you do and I have. In fact if we look at your dictates and disagree with any of them , by your own admission, you will play the " you hate Jews " card.

More importantly if I ask you to apply universal standards to others and you don't, and I can show you don't ( happens all the time in this conflict and in this very post of yours ) do I get to call you an Islamophobe or anti Arab bigot ?

Well, if you reject self-determination for ONE peoples; or if you apply special standards to ONE peoples; or if you reject the history of ONE peoples; or place the entirety of responsibility on ONE peoples, you should be called out for it. If you don't like to be called out for it -- don't do it.

Since I embrace self-determination for ALL peoples and since I apply universal standards, and since I accept factual history of all peoples, and believe there is mutual responsibility, I tend not to get called out.

Try it some time.

 

[Shusha]

Nope. Actually, you do not get accused of being an antisemite because you express support for Palestinian self-determination.

Yes you do and I have. In fact if we look at your dictates and disagree with any of them , by your own admission, you will play the " you hate Jews " card.

More importantly if I ask you to apply universal standards to others and you don't, and I can show you don't ( happens all the time in this conflict and in this very post of yours ) do I get to call you an Islamophobe or anti Arab bigot ?

Also, if you can show where I don't apply universal standards, please make an attempt to do so.

 

[Spartacactcus]

You can't on the one hand say:

So yep , self determination for the Jewish people in their own state is fine ...

and then turn around a day later and say:

recently arrived immigrants from foreign lands with a completely different culture

without sounding like a hypocrite at best, and an antisemite at worst.

Erm, yes you can. You can have your own opinions but you cannot have your own facts. You can be historically accurate and not be a hypocrite

So I can say that , due to the historic persecution of the Jews, I think they would be well served by a state in which to protect themselves and support that without agreeing that it should necessarily have been founded at the expence of another people by the mass immigration of recently arrived immigrant ( Jews ) from foreign lands with a completely different culture. Thus remaining supportive of the creation of a Jewish state , true to my beliefs that oppose settler colonialism/colonialism and remaining historically accurate.

Then having accepted the reality of where Israel was founded, without accepting the legitimacy of that decision , I can accept the situation as is it now and form opinions about how to resolve the situation we find ourselves in today in the most just and acceptable/pragmatic ways

None of which , despite your claims , makes me someone who hates Jewish people at all

 

[Spartacactcus]

1. Demonstrate internally consistent arguments concerning the self-determination of ALL peoples. Don't give *reasons* for why self-determination is valid for all peoples, except the Jewish people. This includes all arguments about "foreign settlers", "not a real culture", "just a religion", "Khazars", "not meant to have a State", and all other *reasons* for excluding the Jewish people from the right to self-determination.

I have said I support the continuance ofthe Jewish state but I would ask you to look at the allegedly pro Israeli folk here and their often stated tropes that are the mirror image of what you are claiming is racist.

We see all of the time that the Palestinians are....

Not a real people

Are a group of seperate tribes

Are recently arrived immigrants

Have no national aspirations but just want to kick the Jews out

Don't have a national culture etc etc

I'm all for applying the same standards and have found it is your own side that balks at it

 

[Shusha]

Erm, yes you can. You can have your own opinions but you cannot have your own facts.

...by the mass immigration of recently arrived immigrant ( Jews ) from foreign lands with a completely different culture. Thus remaining supportive of the creation of a Jewish state , true to my beliefs that oppose settler colonialism/colonialism and remaining historically accurate.

You have a strange idea of what "facts" are.

See, you've presented your "facts" without context. You have deliberately removed, ignored and rejected the entire CONTEXT of the Jewish return to the Jewish historical homeland. That was on my list. #3, was it? Now, try that all again, but this time include ALL the "facts" and not just the ones which erase the Jewish people AS a people with a history in a homeland.

 

[Spartacactcus]

2. Recognize frequently the deep attachment of the Jewish people to their homeland, history, culture and religious faith. Don't diminish it, ignore it, neglect it, minimize it, cast it aside, argue against it, or reject it. The Jewish connection to their homeland and history can not be reasonably disputed. And it makes you look foolish as well as antisemitic.

Your demands are proving to be ridiculous , not surprisingly because it's great to portray any critic of Israeli policies or actions as a antisemite lol


The vast majority of Zionist pioneers were atheistic Jews fleeing persecution in Eastern Europe at a time when the nation states of Europe had solidified themselves from provinces etc where was the push for the Jewish state for 2000 plus years ?

 

[Spartacactcus]

Erm, yes you can. You can have your own opinions but you cannot have your own facts.

...by the mass immigration of recently arrived immigrant ( Jews ) from foreign lands with a completely different culture. Thus remaining supportive of the creation of a Jewish state , true to my beliefs that oppose settler colonialism/colonialism and remaining historically accurate.

You have a strange idea of what "facts" are.

See, you've presented your "facts" without context. You have deliberately removed, ignored and rejected the entire CONTEXT of the Jewish return to the Jewish historical homeland. That was on my list. #3, was it? Now, try that all again, but this time include ALL the "facts" and not just the ones which erase the Jewish people AS a people with a history in a homeland.

Nope, the facts are always in context . There was no Jewish homeland for over 2000 years, that's a fact.

 

[Shusha]

1. Demonstrate internally consistent arguments concerning the self-determination of ALL peoples. Don't give *reasons* for why self-determination is valid for all peoples, except the Jewish people. This includes all arguments about "foreign settlers", "not a real culture", "just a religion", "Khazars", "not meant to have a State", and all other *reasons* for excluding the Jewish people from the right to self-determination.

I have said I support the continuance ofthe Jewish state but I would ask you to look at the allegedly pro Israeli folk here and their often stated tropes that are the mirror image of what you are claiming is racist.

We see all of the time that the Palestinians are....

Not a real people

Are a group of seperate tribes

Are recently arrived immigrants

Have no national aspirations but just want to kick the Jews out

Don't have a national culture etc etc

I'm all for applying the same standards and have found it is your own side that balks at it

Excellent. Let's look at these.

In order to address this, we need to establish what constitutes a "people" and what the objective criteria for self-determination is. We'd also need to objectively define "culture" and how it is relevant. We'd have to discuss the difference between an "immigrant" and a "returnee".

In particular, let's discuss this in the same context as "immigrants from foreign lands with a totally different culture who have come to colonize". Because you are sounding awfully hypocritical to me. How can you complain about the above list, in the context of your posts?

 

[Shusha]

2. Recognize frequently the deep attachment of the Jewish people to their homeland, history, culture and religious faith. Don't diminish it, ignore it, neglect it, minimize it, cast it aside, argue against it, or reject it. The Jewish connection to their homeland and history can not be reasonably disputed. And it makes you look foolish as well as antisemitic.

Your demands are proving to be ridiculous , not surprisingly because it's great to portray any critic of Israeli policies or actions as a antisemite lol

Seriously? This one was the EASY one. Take a deep breath. Say this with me:

The Jewish people and their culture and their religious faith originated on the territory in question. They have a nearly 4000 year history in that territory. It is the homeland of the Jewish people. The Jewish people have always had a deep attachment to that land and to the history that is evident there. This deep attachment is reflected in their myths, their cultural practices, their religious writings and their celebrations and has been for thousands of years.

Dude, seriously, if you can't even get a grip on this, how else am I to take you but antisemitic?

 

[Spartacactcus]

3. Apply objective standards. Use a single definition for terms such as "indigenous culture", "occupation", "self-governing institutions", "civilians", "legitimate self-defense" and others.

I think you will find me more objective than yourself but accepting that will be difficult for you imo and I will show you why below

4. Insist that the Arab Palestinians model behaviour consistent with being ready to move into Statehood. This means the cessation of terrorist acts, including the payment for those acts, incitement of those acts and celebration of those acts. It includes taking responsibility for their citizens. It includes negotiating for a peaceful solution to the conflict.

I agree the Palestinians should stop terrorist attacks but I insist that the IDF do likewise because I am more objective and see the terrorism on both sides, you apparently only see it from one side, the other side

I would also add that prior to the state of Israel many Jews engaged in terrorism themselves in order to pressure the British to allow them self determination. So why are you applying a different standard to the Arabs.

 

[Spartacactcus]

When people say that certain peoples are not able to govern themselves it reeks of racism.

As an occupier it would and should be resoponsible for the welfare of the people it occupies.

Wow. Way to light the candle at both ends.

Which is it? Are the governments of Gaza and the "West Bank" capable of self-government or are they not? If they are, do they not bear the responsibility for the welfare of their own people?

Of course the different factions amongst the Palestinians are capable of running their own affairs. That you think they are not stinks of racism imo

What needs to happen is for the occupation to end and the illegal settlers return to Israel so as to allow them the chance to develop the independent apparatus with which to govern themselves

 

[Shusha]

Nope, the facts are always in context . There was no Jewish homeland for over 2000 years, that's a fact.

Do you have to make this so easy for me?

Homeland. The place that is home. As long as the Jewish people exist, it will be their homeland -- the place of their origin and the place of their history and ancestors.

 

[Spartacactcus]

You employed the racistcanard on queue.

As to the Arabs-Moslems working to form a civil government, why don’t you consider some overseas outreach and become a mediator to resolve the divides that separate the competing mini-caliphates? I treat the competing mini-caliphates as separate and antagonist entities because that’s how they view each other. You do know they fought a rather nasty civil war that left bodies littering the streets, right?

Odd you should suggest that the Pals might be able to form a unified assembly/parliament. With the PNA / PLO / PLC being something of a model for fraud, waste and mismanagement and the quasi sharia / Islamic terrorist hierarchy in Gaza’istan, your comment suggesting that the Islamic terrorists at the top of the welfare fraud food chain will form a workable government is rather silly. Why haven’t they done so already, (note-please don't feel a need to litter the thread with the expected conspiracy theories involving the Great Satan, the Zionist Entity and the Brits.)

You’re hoping to exploit a conspiracy theory about Jews, money foreign invaders and something about “criminal exploitation of the Palestinians and their land”. Those are all the stereotypical conspiracy theories and canards that get tossed around so I have to ask if you’re willing or able to actually form a coherent argument?

What do you think would happen if, as you suggest, everyone took the welfare money out of the hands of the Arabs-Moslems?

When people say that certain peoples are not able to govern themselves it reeks of racism. It was the mainstay of the white mans burden throughout their subjugation of the peoples of the world in their ages of empire. So if you got called out on posing the same racist claptrap here, you got what you deserved imo.

Not only do I know that the Fatah and Hamas factions fought the Battle of Gaza ,I know what was behind it and that falls into the divide an conquer tactics used by the usual suspects.What you foolishly refer to as conspiracy theory is actually the tried and tested means virtually all conflicts/empires are structured. That you wish to see it as a fantasy only shows how out of touch you are.

The criminal exploitation of the Palestinians and their land is real and easily understood for those that view different peoples as being equal wrt rights .

If the foreigh donors stopped their money supply then the whole greater Israel project ( an possibly Israel itself ) would start to unravel and the dire situation of the Palestinians would be impossible for the world to ignore the way it does. I'm not advocating it because of the suffering it would cause but that's what I think would happen.

Israel, as the occupying power, is getting away from the financial burden of that occupation. As an occupier it would and should be resoponsible for the welfare of the people it occupies.

When people say that certain peoples are not able to govern themselves because certain peoples have shown no ability yo govern themselves, it means that that certain peoples are not able to govern themselves.

The silly racism slogan is timewasting. If you’re going to litter every post with the silly racism slogan, try first presenting a coherent argument.

Second, why retreat to silly conspiracy theories as a vehicle to excuse the tribal warfare that was an underlying cause of the Hamas vs. Fatah civil war? Your retreat to the silly divide and conquer tactics is just another tired cliché.

Your next slogan is the criminal exploitation canard. It’s another slogan that you can’t define, explain or provide support for. That’s, umm, you know. racist

Your next slogan is the “if the foreign donors (who you can’t define) stopped their money supply, Israel would collapse”, slogan. Well, actually no.

Israel Economy Facts & Stats

Find out how Israel ranks internationally on Economy. Get the facts and compare to other countries!

www.nationmaster.com

What “occupation” are you referring to? What sovereign territory of either the Abbas or the Hamas mini-caliphate is occupied by Israel?

To not factor in the outside influences and the Israeli domination of the Palestinians , including their political life, into the equation of what we see in the OPTs is just plain ridiculous.

To refer to the dynamics of the divide and conquer concept as " conspiracy theory " is wholly vacuous.

The occupied territories consist of East Jerusalem , Gaza and the WB............you know , the territories they have voted at the UNGA every November for the last 35 ? years

 

[Shusha]

I'm going to refrain from specifically answering some of these posts, as they are more suited to different threads.

Spartacactcus, feel free to post concerning terrorism and occupation elsewhere, tag me and I will respond.

 

[Spartacactcus]

Also, if you can show where I don't apply universal standards, please make an attempt to do so.

Certainly.

You never mentioned that the Jewish state terrorism against the Palestinians should be halted before any negotiations for peace/conflict resolution should take place. You only demanded it of the Palestinians.

Correct ?

 

[Sixties Fan]

3. Apply objective standards. Use a single definition for terms such as "indigenous culture", "occupation", "self-governing institutions", "civilians", "legitimate self-defense" and others.

I think you will find me more objective than yourself but accepting that will be difficult for you imo and I will show you why below

4. Insist that the Arab Palestinians model behaviour consistent with being ready to move into Statehood. This means the cessation of terrorist acts, including the payment for those acts, incitement of those acts and celebration of those acts. It includes taking responsibility for their citizens. It includes negotiating for a peaceful solution to the conflict.

I agree the Palestinians should stop terrorist attacks but I insist that the IDF do likewise because I am more objective and see the terrorism on both sides, you apparently only see it from one side, the other side

I would also add that prior to the state of Israel many Jews engaged in terrorism themselves in order to pressure the British to allow them self determination. So why are you applying a different standard to the Arabs.

The British had a duty with the Mandate for Palestine to help the Jews Re Create their nation ON their ancient homeland. They betrayed that word with the Jews and only with the Jews.
Note how all other three Mandates went on and declared Independence long before Israel finally declared hers.

The British dishonored their names by not enforcing security for the Jews, and allowing Jews to be ethnically cleansed from their cities. And much worse than that.

The British were engaged in helping the Arabs in defeating, terrorizing the Jewish population. The methods may have been ugly, but the British and the Arabs did much worse.
The Arabs did it with the intention of killing ALL Jews in Palestine. They still do.

1920, 1921, 1929, 1936 to 1948, 1947, 1948. Discuss these years.

1937 and 1947. The Partition plans. Discuss that.