The Nature of "Islamic" Terrorism

[Samson]

That's because you apply your standard selectively. The notion that all Western governments join hands and denounce humanitarian disasters whenever they appear is puerile; the West is either directly responsible for or financially supportive of some of the worst atrocities of modern times.

Without a list, I won't guess what you mean, but "The West" has also been responsible for, or financially supportive of some of the most humane actions of modern times.

Frankly, I'm not familiar with how whatever we may define as "Islam" has filled in this side of the balance sheet.....unless Saudi Arabia is sending shipments of rice to Chad, and UN troop to Bosnia?

 

[Kalam]

Frankly, I'm not familiar with how whatever we may define as "Islam" has filled in this side of the balance sheet.....unless Saudi Arabia is sending shipments of rice to Chad, and UN troop to Bosnia?

Rest assured, our troops show up wherever Muslims are being oppressed.

Sudan

Bosnia

Chechnya
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4i600qrlS2M"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4i600qrlS2M[/ame]

While I detest the Saudi government, it's interesting that you brought up their foreign aid:
Saudi foreign assistance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Samson]

Frankly, I'm not familiar with how whatever we may define as "Islam" has filled in this side of the balance sheet.....unless Saudi Arabia is sending shipments of rice to Chad, and UN troop to Bosnia?

Rest assured, our troops show up wherever Muslims are being oppressed.


While I detest the Saudi government, it's interesting that you brought up their foreign aid:
Saudi foreign assistance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You seem to have missed the point.

Almost no Saudi Aid (or any Islamic Aid) is sent to any Country whose population is not primarily muslim, and no Islamic troops show up anywhere non-Muslims are being oppressed.

In Contrast, Western Aid is distributed regardless of the country's religion.

 

[Charles Stucker]

It's also east of Marrakesh, as are most European capitals. "West" is anything west of the Urals that isn't part of Africa or the ME.

So basically if you call it a Western nation it's Western, otherwise it's not. Go it..

That's because you apply your standard selectively.

Double standards, that would be like simultaneously complaining
The US has no right to interfere in other countries internal affairs
And
The US should stop atrocities in other countries

Newsflash, the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor because the Isolationist USA took strong steps to stop their atrocities in Asia.
Even though we are not the world's policeman.

 

[Kalam]

You seem to have missed the point.

Charles and I were discussing the Islamic world's perceived failure to take care of its own. I incorrectly assumed that you were discussing the same thing.

Almost no Saudi Aid (or any Islamic Aid) is sent to any Country whose population is not primarily muslim, and no Islamic troops show up anywhere non-Muslims are being oppressed.

The Saudi Fund for Development was established by Royal Decree in the month of Sha'ban 1394 AH (1974) and began its operations in the month of Safar 1395 AH (1975). At the time of its inception, the Fund's capital amounted to 10 billion Saudi Riyals; however, due to the developing countries' increasing need for assistance in order to implement development projects, the Fund's capital has been augmented three times, and in 1991 totalled 31 billion Saudi Riyals. Despite the fact that the Fund has been operating for a relatively short time, it has made great strides in the area of international development co-operation. The Fund now contributes to the financing of 3750 projects in 71 countries, consisting of 41 African countries, 25 Asian countries, and five countries in other parts of the world.

-Saudi Fund For Development - SAMIRAD (Saudi Arabia Market Information Resource)​

There are less than fifty countries in which Muslims constitute a majority of the population.

As far as mujahideen are concerned, most of the Islamic resistance movements that come to mind are guerrilla forces endemic to the countries in which they respectively fight. While some movements -- especially the resistance in Chechnya -- are supplemented by foreign fighters who have dedicated themselves to defending Islam, they aren't professional armies that can be sent abroad to fight conventionally. It should be noted that Christians in Sudan and Israel latently benefit from the Islamic resistance movements in those countries because they and their Muslim neighbors share common oppressors.

 

[Kalam]

So basically if you call it a Western nation it's Western, otherwise it's not. Go it..

Let's not pretend as if this definition is simply something I made up.

Double standards, that would be like simultaneously complaining
The US has no right to interfere in other countries internal affairs
And
The US should stop atrocities in other countries

Not really. Perhaps the US should intervene internationally if it is attacked by another nation directly, or if a full-fledged genocide is occurring and no other country, movement, or international group seems able to stop it.

Newsflash, the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor because the Isolationist USA took strong steps to stop their atrocities in Asia.
Even though we are not the world's policeman.

The US was purely interested in defending Western colonial interests, which is why America only began taking economic measures against the Japanese after their incursion into China. The West had investments in China and colonial holdings in nearby Southeast Asia that they felt were threatened by Japan's own imperialistic expansion. You'll recall that the world sat by and watched what happened in Nanking in 1937 without doing anything, just as it did for quite some time with Bosnia and Rwanda before finally reacting.

 

[Charles Stucker]

Let's not pretend as if this definition is simply something I made up.

You pretend that Russia being an East block country is something I made up.
To be fair you dispute the definition I used, but the effect is the same.
You say potato, I say east block communist superpower. (Former of course, now Russia is almost as impotent as the Palestinian Arabs)

Perhaps the US should intervene internationally if it is attacked by another nation directly, or if a full-fledged genocide is occurring and no other country, movement, or international group seems able to stop it.

I'd go one further. The US should only attack if attacked and when attacked should go full bore and wipe out the attackers. None of this PC "only target their military" BS - destroy their industry, their farms and their will to fight with massive carpet bombing and if necessary WMD's. Teach everyone to not attack the USA, but use the military only for our borders until we are attacked.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

Complete fucktardry.

Then why do they blow up fellow Muslims? Then why do they hack Christians to death in Indonesia? Why are they hacking Christians to death in the Philipines?

Total BS.. they are a bunch of fucking animals and you need to stop making excuses for butchery.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

And BTW.. the U.S. didn't exist when those fucking animals had to be driven back during the Crusades.

 

[Kalam]

I'd go one further. The US should only attack if attacked and when attacked should go full bore and wipe out the attackers. None of this PC "only target their military" BS - destroy their industry, their farms and their will to fight with massive carpet bombing and if necessary WMD's. Teach everyone to not attack the USA, but use the military only for our borders until we are attacked.

Any regime that kills indiscriminately is an enemy of mine.

 

[Kalam]

And BTW.. the U.S. didn't exist when those fucking animals had to be driven back during the Crusades.

Indeed. Fortunately, we sent them back to Europe with their tails between their legs after they seemed to have the upper hand for a while.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

Unfortunately, the nutters that adhere to Islam seem to be doing some seriously fucked up things. And I'm sure they are the quote unquote "1 percenters" But they sure do some fucked up shit.

 

[Kalam]

Unfortunately, the nutters that adhere to Islam seem to be doing some seriously fucked up things. And I'm sure they are the quote unquote "1 percenters" But they sure do some fucked up shit.

Yes, some do.

 

[Charles Stucker]

I'd go one further. The US should only attack if attacked and when attacked should go full bore and wipe out the attackers. None of this PC "only target their military" BS - destroy their industry, their farms and their will to fight with massive carpet bombing and if necessary WMD's. Teach everyone to not attack the USA, but use the military only for our borders until we are attacked.

Any regime that kills indiscriminately is an enemy of mine.

It's not indiscriminate - we would only attack those who attack us.
But we would not tie our own hands with PC nonsense. They start it they LOSE
End of story.

 

[Kalam]

It's not indiscriminate - we would only attack those who attack us.

Failure to discriminate between the perpetrators of an atrocity and those who had nothing to do with it is, in fact, indiscriminate. What you describe is genocide according to the definition set forth in Article II of 1948's General Assembly Resolution 260.

 

[Samson]

Almost no Saudi Aid (or any Islamic Aid) is sent to any Country whose population is not primarily muslim, and no Islamic troops show up anywhere non-Muslims are being oppressed.

The Fund now contributes to the financing of 3750 projects in 71 countries, consisting of 41 African countries, 25 Asian countries, and five countries in other parts of the world.

-Saudi Fund For Development - SAMIRAD (Saudi Arabia Market Information Resource)​

There are less than fifty countries in which Muslims constitute a majority of the population.

Yes, I suppose a Saudi Prince thew a riyal in the plate of a Venezualan Begger, or a pan handler in NYC.

Let's be real. ALMOST ALL of Saudi Aid goes to Muslim Countries

I used your original source:

Middle East
Saudi Arabia pledged $1 billion in export guarantees and soft loans to Iraq. For Lebanon, it pledged a total of $1.59 billion in assistance and deposits to the Central Bank of Lebanon in 2006 and pledged an additional $1.1 billion in early 2007.[4] Of that aid, $500 million dollars were intended for reconstruction.[5]

Prince Al-Waleed bin Talal pledged to rebuild a village in northern Syria which was inundated when a dam burst in 2002, killing more than 20. Waleed's investment firm, Kingdom Holding Company, said it was to "reconstruct the entire village of Zeyzoun and all its infrastructure of water, electricity, telephone and sewage systems".[6]

After the Iranian earthquake, Saudi Arabia pledged more than $200,000 to the victims.[7]

Saudi Arabia is the largest provider of aid to the Palestinian people.[8] Since 2002, Saudi Arabia has given more than $480 million in monetary support to the Palestinian Authority, and has supported Palestinian refugees by contributing to the UN Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA). Through the Arab League it has provided more than $250 million for the Palestinians, and pledged $500 million in assistance over the next three years at the Donors Conference in Dec 2007.[4] Unlike aid from other nations, Saudi Arabian aid to Palestinians was not disrupted by the election of Hamas.[8]

[edit] South Asia
After the 2004 Indian Ocean earthquake and the resulting massive tsunamis, the Saudi government gave $30 million in aid to aid the victims, including a $5 million private donation by King Fahd (Saudis in total, including citizens, donated more than $80 million).[9]

In the aftermath of the 2005 Kashmir earthquake, Saudi Arabia donated over US$3.3 million, more than any other country,[10] and promised an additional $573 million, also the maximum amount of money pledged.[11] Saudi Arabia also provided 4000 pre-fabricated houses to Pakistan through the Saudi Public Assistance for Pakistan Earthquake Victims (SPAPEV). The houses, which were to be equipped with all required facilities, cost over $16.7 million.[12] The SPAPEV also distributed 230,000 blankets, 150,000 quilts, 10,000 ordinary tents, 2,500 special winterized water proof tents, 100,000 stoves, 100,000 food.[13]

The Saudi government pledged $230 million to development in Afghanistan. It has also pledged $133 million in direct grant aid, $187 million in concessional loans, and $153 million in export credits for Pakistan earthquake relief.[4]

The Saudi Joint Committee for the Relief of Kosovo used $5 million to finance projects in rehabilitation, foodstuffs, relief materials, educational and religious programs, sponsorship of orphans, health care programs and development. Freights from Jeddah took 400,000 liters of milk as well as 900 cartons of clothing, 1,000 blankets, 25 water cisterns, medical supplies and surgical appliances such as wheelchairs to Pristina.[15] Saudi citizens donated $20 million to Kosovo in cash as well as food and medical supplies, and the Saudi Red Crescent sent medical volunteers.[16]

In 2006, the Saudi government gave $10 million in aid to the horn of Africa, through the World Food Programme, of which Kenya received $2 million.[17] Saudi prince Al-Walid bin Talal donated $1 million to help feed 3.5 million Kenyans during the drought.[18]


There are many who view that Saudi aid is earmarked for Muslims and Muslim states. This view led a Saudi philanthropist to lobby the Saudi government to give £250,000 in aid used to purchase rice for Cambodian children.[2]

WOW........about $500,000 to purchase rice for non-Muslim Cambodians. Yes, Islam is generous....TO MUSLIMS.

As far as mujahideen are concerned, most of the Islamic resistance movements that come to mind are guerrilla forces endemic to the countries in which they respectively fight.

Yes, outside of Islam, Muslims don't give a flip about "the oppressed."

 

[Samson]

I'd go one further. The US should only attack if attacked and when attacked should go full bore and wipe out the attackers. None of this PC "only target their military" BS - destroy their industry, their farms and their will to fight with massive carpet bombing and if necessary WMD's. Teach everyone to not attack the USA, but use the military only for our borders until we are attacked.

Any regime that kills indiscriminately is an enemy of mine.

It's not indiscriminate - we would only attack those who attack us.
But we would not tie our own hands with PC nonsense. They start it they LOSE
End of story.

Yes, the US should do a lot of things.

But what should be done is highly relative. You're reaction, while entirely justified, might lead to the anarchy in which ALL terrorists thrive (Western, Islamic, Eastern, Siberian, German, Montannan....whatever). There is a growing population of these people that are "bunkering up."

Also, why do you suppose the USA would be attacked, and respond? What if an ally was attacked. What if Islamists set a dirty bomb off in London? What would the US do?

Worse, what if they set it off in Berlin.

Germans are not known for their tolerance of unruly minorities, or adherence to international treaties. Cattle Cars and Ovens can be used on Muslims. What would the USA do?

 

[Kalam]

Yes, I suppose a Suadi Prince thew a riyal in the plate of a Venezualan Begger, or a pan handler in NYC.

Let's be real. ALMOST ALL of Saudi Aid goes to Muslim Countries

The second largest recipient of Saudi aid in 2006 was China. Along with Rwanda and Madagascar, they received over a quarter of all of the development funds given out that year.

The Royal Embassy of Saudi Arabia, Washington, DC, USA
Two Saudi relief planes carry aid to the Philippines
Second Saudi relief plane arrives in Sri Lanka
King Abdullah orders aid to refugees in Sri Lanka

WOW........about $500,000 to purchase rice for non-Muslim Cambodians. Yes, Islam is generous....TO MUSLIMS.

I'd advise against making the mistake of equating the Saudi government to "Islam."

Yes, outside of Islam, Muslims don't give a flip about "the oppressed."

I'm sure the Tutsi tribespeople and liberal Hutus who were protected by Muslims during the Rwandan genocide would enjoy hearing that.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0U5AZFsBrc"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0U5AZFsBrc[/ame]

 

[Samson]

Yes, I suppose a Suadi Prince thew a riyal in the plate of a Venezualan Begger, or a pan handler in NYC.

Let's be real. ALMOST ALL of Saudi Aid goes to Muslim Countries

The second largest recipient of Saudi aid in 2006 was China. Along with Rwanda and Madagascar, they received over a quarter of all of the development funds given out that year.

The Royal Embassy of Saudi Arabia, Washington, DC, USA
Two Saudi relief planes carry aid to the Philippines
Second Saudi relief plane arrives in Sri Lanka
King Abdullah orders aid to refugees in Sri Lanka

Oddly, I cannot find any source to support your claim that any Saudi Aid went to China, Madagascar, or Rwanda. If you find it though, I think you ought to update the Wikipedia source you gave me in the earlier post, which is dated (from 2006).

[

WOW........about $500,000 to purchase rice for non-Muslim Cambodians. Yes, Islam is generous....TO MUSLIMS.

I'd advise against making the mistake of equating the Saudi government to "Islam."

I certainly agree with you: however, I assumed that the largest contributor to World Aid from Islam, would be Saudi Arabia. I suppose Abu Dahbi or Quwait could be contributers as well.

You're certainly welcome to add their aid to non-muslim nations to the unsubstantiated aid you've claimed has come from Saudi.

[

Yes, outside of Islam, Muslims don't give a flip about "the oppressed."

I'm sure the Tutsi tribespeople and liberal Hutus who were protected by Muslims during the Rwandan genocide would enjoy hearing that.

Ok, outside Rwanda, where, no doubt Al Jezera finally found A Muslim that sheltered A Non-Muslim, Muslims don't give a flip about protecting the oppressed.

I cannot help to be astonished that you would even offer such a weak example of Islamic Protection of The Oppressed Non-Muslim in light of the Western Rescue of Bosnia from Serbs.

Shit, Al Jazera must be desperate.

 

[Charles Stucker]

Failure to discriminate between the perpetrators of an atrocity and those who had nothing to do with it is, in fact, indiscriminate. What you describe is genocide according to the definition set forth in Article II of 1948's General Assembly Resolution 260.

So the Islamic terrorists are guilty of genocide?
I won't argue with that claim of yours.
Not with examples like Darfur etc.