The Meaning of 'forever' in Hebrew

Picaro

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Ran across this little essay while looking for something else, and though it interesting enough to post for newbies at textual analysis, at least.

"Consider the following lengthy quotation written by a Messianic Jew, Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum, in his book titled Israelology:
Those who argue for a mandatory Sabbath observance on the basis of the Law of Moses will often refer to Exodus 31:13, which states that the Sabbath is to be observed throughout your generations; 31:16, that the Sabbath is to be a perpetual covenant; and, 31:17 where it is to be a sign between God and Israel for ever. According to the proponents of mandatory Sabbath-keeping, these terms show that the Sabbath obligation continues, although many other parts of the Mosaic Law are no longer in effect, such as the sacrificial system and the Levitical priesthood. However, while the English terms do tend to carry concepts of eternity, that is not the meaning of the Hebrew words themselves. Classical Hebrew had no word that actually meant “eternal.” The Hebrew term for “forever” (olam) as BDB states, means “long duration,” “antiquity,” or “futurity.” The Hebrew forms mean nothing more than, “until the end of a period of time.” What that period of time is must be determined by the context or determined by related passages. In classical Hebrew, these words never meant or carried the concept of eternity, but had a time limitation. The period of time may have been to the end of a man’s life, or an age, or dispensation, but not for ever in the sense of eternity. This is very clear from examining the usage of the same terminology in other passages.
For example, the same Hebrew term for for ever is used to mean nothing more than up to the end of a man’s life in Exodus 21:6:
Then his master shall bring him unto God, and shall bring him to the door, or onto the door-post; his master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him for ever. (Not for eternity, but for the rest of his life).
Deuteronomy 15:17:
Then thou shalt take an awl, and thrust it through his ear onto the door, and he shall be thy servant for ever. (Not for eternity, but for the rest of his life.)
1 Samuel 1:22:
But Hannah went not up; for she said unto her husband, I will not go up until the child be weaned; and then I will bring him, that he may appear before Jehovah, and there abide for ever. (Not for eternity, but for the rest of his life.)
1 Chronicles 28:4:
Howbeit Jehovah, the God of Israel, chose me out of all the house of my father to be king of Israel for ever: … (David did not rule over Jerusalem for eternity, but he did rule for the rest of his life.)
Other examples where olam means only to the end of a man’s life include Exodus 14:13; Leviticus 25:46; 1 Samuel 20:23 and 27:12. Another way that the same term was used is when God said that He would dwell in the Solomonic Temple for ever in 1 Kings 9:3:
And Jehovah said unto him, I have heard thy prayer and thy supplication, that thou has made before me: I have hallowed this house, which thou has built, to put my name there for ever; and mine eyes and my heart shall be there perpetually
The same statement is made in 2 Chronicles 7:16. However, God left the Temple in the days of Ezekiel. Obviously, for ever here meant the age or period of time of the First Temple only.
In Deuteronomy 23:3, the concept of for ever is clearly limited:
An Ammonite or a Moabite shall not enter into the assembly of Jehovah; even to the tenth generation shall none belonging to them enter into the assembly of Jehovah for ever.
Obviously here for ever is limited to ten generations.
Even more relevant to the issue at hand is that the same term is applied to other facets of the Law of Moses besides the Sabbath, such as the kindling of the Tabernacle lampstands (Exod. 27:21; Lev. 24:3); the ceremony of showbread (Lev. 24:8); the service of the brazen laver (Exod. 30:21); the Levitical priesthood and the priestly garments (Exod. 28:43; 40:15; Lev. 10:9; Num. 10:8; 18:23; 25:13; 1 Chron. 15:2; 23:13); the sacrificial system, including sacrifices, offerings, etc. (Exod. 29:28; Lev. 7:34, 36; 10:15; Num. 15:15; 18:8, 11, 19; 19:10); and, the Yom Kippur sacrifice (Lev. 16:34). If it is insisted that the Sabbath is still mandatory on the basis of the English word “forever,” then the same thing would have to apply to all these other facets of the Law of Moses. Yet those who insist on mandatory Sabbath-keeping will insist that the Messiah has put an end to all the others.
As for the term perpetual covenant, it is also used of the ceremony of the showbread in Leviticus 24:9
As for the term throughout your generations, this too is limited in time. It is used of a man’s life (Lev. 25:30); the Levitical priesthood (Exod. 40:15; Lev. 10:9; Num. 10:8; 18:23); the ceremony of the lampstands (Exod. 27:21; Lev. 24:3); the service of the brazen laver (Exod. 30:21); and the sacrificial system (Lev. 7:36; Num. 15:15).
It is inconsistent exegesis to insist on the basis of such terms as forever, throughout your generations, and perpetual covenant that the Sabbath law is still mandatory without incorporating all of these other elements from the Law of Moses for the same reason. (Israelology, pp. 655–657)"

Not much interested in the HRM movement but if you are then fine, I don't mind people discussing it; I just wanted to pass the above along.
 

fncceo

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Messianic Jew, Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum
Messianic Jews, AKA 'Jews for Jesus', aren't Jews. Their movement is a xtian converstion mission aimed specifically at Jews.

Very few of their clergy were ever Jews. The founder himself, Moshe Rosen, was born Jewish and had no Jewish education and never practiced Judaism. He formally converted to xtianity and created Jews for Jesus to convince other Jews to do the same.

Nothing they have to say is the least amount of bearing on Jewish theology.

This would be like a Buddhist scholar writing treatises on the deeper meanings of xtianity.
 
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Picaro

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Messianic Jew, Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum
Messianic Jews, AKA 'Jews for Jesus', aren't Jews. Their movement is a xtian converstion mission aimed specifically at Jews.

Very few of their clergy were ever Jews. The founder himself, Moshe Rosen, was born Jewish and had no Jewish education and never practiced Judaism. He formally converted to xtianity and created Jews for Jesus to convince other Jews to do the same.

Nothing they have to say is the least amount of bearing on Jewish theology.

This would be like a Buddhist scholar writing treatises on the deeper meanings of xtianity.
This is the racist Orthodox claim; too bad it's just propaganda from Xian haters, like that '2,000 years of slavery' BS spouted to scare Jewish kids, by both secular bigots and racist bigots.

As for Buddhist scholars, there is nothing to stop one from studying and commenting on Christian theology, or any other theology for that matter. They are certainly less likely to make up lies about it than many Orthodox laymen.
 

luchitociencia

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In your personal life, the phrase "for ever" means since you receive the order until you die. Your death is the race finish line.

Same applies to the biblical orders.
 

BreezeWood

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Ran across this little essay while looking for something else, and though it interesting enough to post for newbies at textual analysis, at least.

"Consider the following lengthy quotation written by a Messianic Jew, Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum, in his book titled Israelology:
Those who argue for a mandatory Sabbath observance on the basis of the Law of Moses will often refer to Exodus 31:13, which states that the Sabbath is to be observed throughout your generations; 31:16, that the Sabbath is to be a perpetual covenant; and, 31:17 where it is to be a sign between God and Israel for ever. According to the proponents of mandatory Sabbath-keeping, these terms show that the Sabbath obligation continues, although many other parts of the Mosaic Law are no longer in effect, such as the sacrificial system and the Levitical priesthood. However, while the English terms do tend to carry concepts of eternity, that is not the meaning of the Hebrew words themselves. Classical Hebrew had no word that actually meant “eternal.” The Hebrew term for “forever” (olam) as BDB states, means “long duration,” “antiquity,” or “futurity.” The Hebrew forms mean nothing more than, “until the end of a period of time.” What that period of time is must be determined by the context or determined by related passages. In classical Hebrew, these words never meant or carried the concept of eternity, but had a time limitation. The period of time may have been to the end of a man’s life, or an age, or dispensation, but not for ever in the sense of eternity. This is very clear from examining the usage of the same terminology in other passages.
For example, the same Hebrew term for for ever is used to mean nothing more than up to the end of a man’s life in Exodus 21:6:
Then his master shall bring him unto God, and shall bring him to the door, or onto the door-post; his master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him for ever. (Not for eternity, but for the rest of his life).
Deuteronomy 15:17:
Then thou shalt take an awl, and thrust it through his ear onto the door, and he shall be thy servant for ever. (Not for eternity, but for the rest of his life.)
1 Samuel 1:22:
But Hannah went not up; for she said unto her husband, I will not go up until the child be weaned; and then I will bring him, that he may appear before Jehovah, and there abide for ever. (Not for eternity, but for the rest of his life.)
1 Chronicles 28:4:
Howbeit Jehovah, the God of Israel, chose me out of all the house of my father to be king of Israel for ever: … (David did not rule over Jerusalem for eternity, but he did rule for the rest of his life.)
Other examples where olam means only to the end of a man’s life include Exodus 14:13; Leviticus 25:46; 1 Samuel 20:23 and 27:12. Another way that the same term was used is when God said that He would dwell in the Solomonic Temple for ever in 1 Kings 9:3:
And Jehovah said unto him, I have heard thy prayer and thy supplication, that thou has made before me: I have hallowed this house, which thou has built, to put my name there for ever; and mine eyes and my heart shall be there perpetually
The same statement is made in 2 Chronicles 7:16. However, God left the Temple in the days of Ezekiel. Obviously, for ever here meant the age or period of time of the First Temple only.
In Deuteronomy 23:3, the concept of for ever is clearly limited:
An Ammonite or a Moabite shall not enter into the assembly of Jehovah; even to the tenth generation shall none belonging to them enter into the assembly of Jehovah for ever.
Obviously here for ever is limited to ten generations.
Even more relevant to the issue at hand is that the same term is applied to other facets of the Law of Moses besides the Sabbath, such as the kindling of the Tabernacle lampstands (Exod. 27:21; Lev. 24:3); the ceremony of showbread (Lev. 24:8); the service of the brazen laver (Exod. 30:21); the Levitical priesthood and the priestly garments (Exod. 28:43; 40:15; Lev. 10:9; Num. 10:8; 18:23; 25:13; 1 Chron. 15:2; 23:13); the sacrificial system, including sacrifices, offerings, etc. (Exod. 29:28; Lev. 7:34, 36; 10:15; Num. 15:15; 18:8, 11, 19; 19:10); and, the Yom Kippur sacrifice (Lev. 16:34). If it is insisted that the Sabbath is still mandatory on the basis of the English word “forever,” then the same thing would have to apply to all these other facets of the Law of Moses. Yet those who insist on mandatory Sabbath-keeping will insist that the Messiah has put an end to all the others.
As for the term perpetual covenant, it is also used of the ceremony of the showbread in Leviticus 24:9
As for the term throughout your generations, this too is limited in time. It is used of a man’s life (Lev. 25:30); the Levitical priesthood (Exod. 40:15; Lev. 10:9; Num. 10:8; 18:23); the ceremony of the lampstands (Exod. 27:21; Lev. 24:3); the service of the brazen laver (Exod. 30:21); and the sacrificial system (Lev. 7:36; Num. 15:15).
It is inconsistent exegesis to insist on the basis of such terms as forever, throughout your generations, and perpetual covenant that the Sabbath law is still mandatory without incorporating all of these other elements from the Law of Moses for the same reason. (Israelology, pp. 655–657)"

Not much interested in the HRM movement but if you are then fine, I don't mind people discussing it; I just wanted to pass the above along.
Ran across this little essay while looking for something else ...
.
no need to read any further .... day dreaming by picaro.


that the Sabbath is to be a perpetual covenant - The Hebrew forms mean nothing more than, “until the end of a period of time.” What that period of time is must be determined by the context or determined by related passages.

sabbath - is a perfect completion, timeless what the Almighty deemed of their creation and likewise the same for those attempting admission to the Everlasting, a specific triumph a sabbath is required - - being irreversible as the means to be granted judgement.
 
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Picaro

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Ran across this little essay while looking for something else, and though it interesting enough to post for newbies at textual analysis, at least.

"Consider the following lengthy quotation written by a Messianic Jew, Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum, in his book titled Israelology:
Those who argue for a mandatory Sabbath observance on the basis of the Law of Moses will often refer to Exodus 31:13, which states that the Sabbath is to be observed throughout your generations; 31:16, that the Sabbath is to be a perpetual covenant; and, 31:17 where it is to be a sign between God and Israel for ever. According to the proponents of mandatory Sabbath-keeping, these terms show that the Sabbath obligation continues, although many other parts of the Mosaic Law are no longer in effect, such as the sacrificial system and the Levitical priesthood. However, while the English terms do tend to carry concepts of eternity, that is not the meaning of the Hebrew words themselves. Classical Hebrew had no word that actually meant “eternal.” The Hebrew term for “forever” (olam) as BDB states, means “long duration,” “antiquity,” or “futurity.” The Hebrew forms mean nothing more than, “until the end of a period of time.” What that period of time is must be determined by the context or determined by related passages. In classical Hebrew, these words never meant or carried the concept of eternity, but had a time limitation. The period of time may have been to the end of a man’s life, or an age, or dispensation, but not for ever in the sense of eternity. This is very clear from examining the usage of the same terminology in other passages.
For example, the same Hebrew term for for ever is used to mean nothing more than up to the end of a man’s life in Exodus 21:6:
Then his master shall bring him unto God, and shall bring him to the door, or onto the door-post; his master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him for ever. (Not for eternity, but for the rest of his life).
Deuteronomy 15:17:
Then thou shalt take an awl, and thrust it through his ear onto the door, and he shall be thy servant for ever. (Not for eternity, but for the rest of his life.)
1 Samuel 1:22:
But Hannah went not up; for she said unto her husband, I will not go up until the child be weaned; and then I will bring him, that he may appear before Jehovah, and there abide for ever. (Not for eternity, but for the rest of his life.)
1 Chronicles 28:4:
Howbeit Jehovah, the God of Israel, chose me out of all the house of my father to be king of Israel for ever: … (David did not rule over Jerusalem for eternity, but he did rule for the rest of his life.)
Other examples where olam means only to the end of a man’s life include Exodus 14:13; Leviticus 25:46; 1 Samuel 20:23 and 27:12. Another way that the same term was used is when God said that He would dwell in the Solomonic Temple for ever in 1 Kings 9:3:
And Jehovah said unto him, I have heard thy prayer and thy supplication, that thou has made before me: I have hallowed this house, which thou has built, to put my name there for ever; and mine eyes and my heart shall be there perpetually
The same statement is made in 2 Chronicles 7:16. However, God left the Temple in the days of Ezekiel. Obviously, for ever here meant the age or period of time of the First Temple only.
In Deuteronomy 23:3, the concept of for ever is clearly limited:
An Ammonite or a Moabite shall not enter into the assembly of Jehovah; even to the tenth generation shall none belonging to them enter into the assembly of Jehovah for ever.
Obviously here for ever is limited to ten generations.
Even more relevant to the issue at hand is that the same term is applied to other facets of the Law of Moses besides the Sabbath, such as the kindling of the Tabernacle lampstands (Exod. 27:21; Lev. 24:3); the ceremony of showbread (Lev. 24:8); the service of the brazen laver (Exod. 30:21); the Levitical priesthood and the priestly garments (Exod. 28:43; 40:15; Lev. 10:9; Num. 10:8; 18:23; 25:13; 1 Chron. 15:2; 23:13); the sacrificial system, including sacrifices, offerings, etc. (Exod. 29:28; Lev. 7:34, 36; 10:15; Num. 15:15; 18:8, 11, 19; 19:10); and, the Yom Kippur sacrifice (Lev. 16:34). If it is insisted that the Sabbath is still mandatory on the basis of the English word “forever,” then the same thing would have to apply to all these other facets of the Law of Moses. Yet those who insist on mandatory Sabbath-keeping will insist that the Messiah has put an end to all the others.
As for the term perpetual covenant, it is also used of the ceremony of the showbread in Leviticus 24:9
As for the term throughout your generations, this too is limited in time. It is used of a man’s life (Lev. 25:30); the Levitical priesthood (Exod. 40:15; Lev. 10:9; Num. 10:8; 18:23); the ceremony of the lampstands (Exod. 27:21; Lev. 24:3); the service of the brazen laver (Exod. 30:21); and the sacrificial system (Lev. 7:36; Num. 15:15).
It is inconsistent exegesis to insist on the basis of such terms as forever, throughout your generations, and perpetual covenant that the Sabbath law is still mandatory without incorporating all of these other elements from the Law of Moses for the same reason. (Israelology, pp. 655–657)"

Not much interested in the HRM movement but if you are then fine, I don't mind people discussing it; I just wanted to pass the above along.
Ran across this little essay while looking for something else ...
.
no need to read any further .... day dreaming by picaro.


that the Sabbath is to be a perpetual covenant - The Hebrew forms mean nothing more than, “until the end of a period of time.” What that period of time is must be determined by the context or determined by related passages.

sabbath - is a perfect completion, timeless what the Almighty deemed of their creation and likewise the same for those attempting admission to the Everlasting, a specific triumph a sabbath is required - - being irreversible as the means to be granted judgement.
Never mind that, tell us more about Adam and Eve hunting down animals n stuff in the Garden Of Eden. I'm sure many here would find that news fascinating.
 

BreezeWood

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Ran across this little essay while looking for something else, and though it interesting enough to post for newbies at textual analysis, at least.

"Consider the following lengthy quotation written by a Messianic Jew, Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum, in his book titled Israelology:
Those who argue for a mandatory Sabbath observance on the basis of the Law of Moses will often refer to Exodus 31:13, which states that the Sabbath is to be observed throughout your generations; 31:16, that the Sabbath is to be a perpetual covenant; and, 31:17 where it is to be a sign between God and Israel for ever. According to the proponents of mandatory Sabbath-keeping, these terms show that the Sabbath obligation continues, although many other parts of the Mosaic Law are no longer in effect, such as the sacrificial system and the Levitical priesthood. However, while the English terms do tend to carry concepts of eternity, that is not the meaning of the Hebrew words themselves. Classical Hebrew had no word that actually meant “eternal.” The Hebrew term for “forever” (olam) as BDB states, means “long duration,” “antiquity,” or “futurity.” The Hebrew forms mean nothing more than, “until the end of a period of time.” What that period of time is must be determined by the context or determined by related passages. In classical Hebrew, these words never meant or carried the concept of eternity, but had a time limitation. The period of time may have been to the end of a man’s life, or an age, or dispensation, but not for ever in the sense of eternity. This is very clear from examining the usage of the same terminology in other passages.
For example, the same Hebrew term for for ever is used to mean nothing more than up to the end of a man’s life in Exodus 21:6:
Then his master shall bring him unto God, and shall bring him to the door, or onto the door-post; his master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him for ever. (Not for eternity, but for the rest of his life).
Deuteronomy 15:17:
Then thou shalt take an awl, and thrust it through his ear onto the door, and he shall be thy servant for ever. (Not for eternity, but for the rest of his life.)
1 Samuel 1:22:
But Hannah went not up; for she said unto her husband, I will not go up until the child be weaned; and then I will bring him, that he may appear before Jehovah, and there abide for ever. (Not for eternity, but for the rest of his life.)
1 Chronicles 28:4:
Howbeit Jehovah, the God of Israel, chose me out of all the house of my father to be king of Israel for ever: … (David did not rule over Jerusalem for eternity, but he did rule for the rest of his life.)
Other examples where olam means only to the end of a man’s life include Exodus 14:13; Leviticus 25:46; 1 Samuel 20:23 and 27:12. Another way that the same term was used is when God said that He would dwell in the Solomonic Temple for ever in 1 Kings 9:3:
And Jehovah said unto him, I have heard thy prayer and thy supplication, that thou has made before me: I have hallowed this house, which thou has built, to put my name there for ever; and mine eyes and my heart shall be there perpetually
The same statement is made in 2 Chronicles 7:16. However, God left the Temple in the days of Ezekiel. Obviously, for ever here meant the age or period of time of the First Temple only.
In Deuteronomy 23:3, the concept of for ever is clearly limited:
An Ammonite or a Moabite shall not enter into the assembly of Jehovah; even to the tenth generation shall none belonging to them enter into the assembly of Jehovah for ever.
Obviously here for ever is limited to ten generations.
Even more relevant to the issue at hand is that the same term is applied to other facets of the Law of Moses besides the Sabbath, such as the kindling of the Tabernacle lampstands (Exod. 27:21; Lev. 24:3); the ceremony of showbread (Lev. 24:8); the service of the brazen laver (Exod. 30:21); the Levitical priesthood and the priestly garments (Exod. 28:43; 40:15; Lev. 10:9; Num. 10:8; 18:23; 25:13; 1 Chron. 15:2; 23:13); the sacrificial system, including sacrifices, offerings, etc. (Exod. 29:28; Lev. 7:34, 36; 10:15; Num. 15:15; 18:8, 11, 19; 19:10); and, the Yom Kippur sacrifice (Lev. 16:34). If it is insisted that the Sabbath is still mandatory on the basis of the English word “forever,” then the same thing would have to apply to all these other facets of the Law of Moses. Yet those who insist on mandatory Sabbath-keeping will insist that the Messiah has put an end to all the others.
As for the term perpetual covenant, it is also used of the ceremony of the showbread in Leviticus 24:9
As for the term throughout your generations, this too is limited in time. It is used of a man’s life (Lev. 25:30); the Levitical priesthood (Exod. 40:15; Lev. 10:9; Num. 10:8; 18:23); the ceremony of the lampstands (Exod. 27:21; Lev. 24:3); the service of the brazen laver (Exod. 30:21); and the sacrificial system (Lev. 7:36; Num. 15:15).
It is inconsistent exegesis to insist on the basis of such terms as forever, throughout your generations, and perpetual covenant that the Sabbath law is still mandatory without incorporating all of these other elements from the Law of Moses for the same reason. (Israelology, pp. 655–657)"

Not much interested in the HRM movement but if you are then fine, I don't mind people discussing it; I just wanted to pass the above along.
Ran across this little essay while looking for something else ...
.
no need to read any further .... day dreaming by picaro.


that the Sabbath is to be a perpetual covenant - The Hebrew forms mean nothing more than, “until the end of a period of time.” What that period of time is must be determined by the context or determined by related passages.

sabbath - is a perfect completion, timeless what the Almighty deemed of their creation and likewise the same for those attempting admission to the Everlasting, a specific triumph a sabbath is required - - being irreversible as the means to be granted judgement.
Never mind that, tell us more about Adam and Eve hunting down animals n stuff in the Garden Of Eden. I'm sure many here would find that news fascinating.
Never mind that, tell us more about Adam and Eve hunting down animals n stuff in the Garden Of Eden. I'm sure many here would find that news fascinating.
.
it's fascinating you have to make up stories to slander someone you can not handle otherwise ... reaping what you sow, too bad how seldom the instigator is held accountable.
 

ding

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Ran across this little essay while looking for something else, and though it interesting enough to post for newbies at textual analysis, at least.

"Consider the following lengthy quotation written by a Messianic Jew, Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum, in his book titled Israelology:
Those who argue for a mandatory Sabbath observance on the basis of the Law of Moses will often refer to Exodus 31:13, which states that the Sabbath is to be observed throughout your generations; 31:16, that the Sabbath is to be a perpetual covenant; and, 31:17 where it is to be a sign between God and Israel for ever. According to the proponents of mandatory Sabbath-keeping, these terms show that the Sabbath obligation continues, although many other parts of the Mosaic Law are no longer in effect, such as the sacrificial system and the Levitical priesthood. However, while the English terms do tend to carry concepts of eternity, that is not the meaning of the Hebrew words themselves. Classical Hebrew had no word that actually meant “eternal.” The Hebrew term for “forever” (olam) as BDB states, means “long duration,” “antiquity,” or “futurity.” The Hebrew forms mean nothing more than, “until the end of a period of time.” What that period of time is must be determined by the context or determined by related passages. In classical Hebrew, these words never meant or carried the concept of eternity, but had a time limitation. The period of time may have been to the end of a man’s life, or an age, or dispensation, but not for ever in the sense of eternity. This is very clear from examining the usage of the same terminology in other passages.
For example, the same Hebrew term for for ever is used to mean nothing more than up to the end of a man’s life in Exodus 21:6:
Then his master shall bring him unto God, and shall bring him to the door, or onto the door-post; his master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him for ever. (Not for eternity, but for the rest of his life).
Deuteronomy 15:17:
Then thou shalt take an awl, and thrust it through his ear onto the door, and he shall be thy servant for ever. (Not for eternity, but for the rest of his life.)
1 Samuel 1:22:
But Hannah went not up; for she said unto her husband, I will not go up until the child be weaned; and then I will bring him, that he may appear before Jehovah, and there abide for ever. (Not for eternity, but for the rest of his life.)
1 Chronicles 28:4:
Howbeit Jehovah, the God of Israel, chose me out of all the house of my father to be king of Israel for ever: … (David did not rule over Jerusalem for eternity, but he did rule for the rest of his life.)
Other examples where olam means only to the end of a man’s life include Exodus 14:13; Leviticus 25:46; 1 Samuel 20:23 and 27:12. Another way that the same term was used is when God said that He would dwell in the Solomonic Temple for ever in 1 Kings 9:3:
And Jehovah said unto him, I have heard thy prayer and thy supplication, that thou has made before me: I have hallowed this house, which thou has built, to put my name there for ever; and mine eyes and my heart shall be there perpetually
The same statement is made in 2 Chronicles 7:16. However, God left the Temple in the days of Ezekiel. Obviously, for ever here meant the age or period of time of the First Temple only.
In Deuteronomy 23:3, the concept of for ever is clearly limited:
An Ammonite or a Moabite shall not enter into the assembly of Jehovah; even to the tenth generation shall none belonging to them enter into the assembly of Jehovah for ever.
Obviously here for ever is limited to ten generations.
Even more relevant to the issue at hand is that the same term is applied to other facets of the Law of Moses besides the Sabbath, such as the kindling of the Tabernacle lampstands (Exod. 27:21; Lev. 24:3); the ceremony of showbread (Lev. 24:8); the service of the brazen laver (Exod. 30:21); the Levitical priesthood and the priestly garments (Exod. 28:43; 40:15; Lev. 10:9; Num. 10:8; 18:23; 25:13; 1 Chron. 15:2; 23:13); the sacrificial system, including sacrifices, offerings, etc. (Exod. 29:28; Lev. 7:34, 36; 10:15; Num. 15:15; 18:8, 11, 19; 19:10); and, the Yom Kippur sacrifice (Lev. 16:34). If it is insisted that the Sabbath is still mandatory on the basis of the English word “forever,” then the same thing would have to apply to all these other facets of the Law of Moses. Yet those who insist on mandatory Sabbath-keeping will insist that the Messiah has put an end to all the others.
As for the term perpetual covenant, it is also used of the ceremony of the showbread in Leviticus 24:9
As for the term throughout your generations, this too is limited in time. It is used of a man’s life (Lev. 25:30); the Levitical priesthood (Exod. 40:15; Lev. 10:9; Num. 10:8; 18:23); the ceremony of the lampstands (Exod. 27:21; Lev. 24:3); the service of the brazen laver (Exod. 30:21); and the sacrificial system (Lev. 7:36; Num. 15:15).
It is inconsistent exegesis to insist on the basis of such terms as forever, throughout your generations, and perpetual covenant that the Sabbath law is still mandatory without incorporating all of these other elements from the Law of Moses for the same reason. (Israelology, pp. 655–657)"

Not much interested in the HRM movement but if you are then fine, I don't mind people discussing it; I just wanted to pass the above along.
Ran across this little essay while looking for something else ...
.
no need to read any further .... day dreaming by picaro.


that the Sabbath is to be a perpetual covenant - The Hebrew forms mean nothing more than, “until the end of a period of time.” What that period of time is must be determined by the context or determined by related passages.

sabbath - is a perfect completion, timeless what the Almighty deemed of their creation and likewise the same for those attempting admission to the Everlasting, a specific triumph a sabbath is required - - being irreversible as the means to be granted judgement.
Never mind that, tell us more about Adam and Eve hunting down animals n stuff in the Garden Of Eden. I'm sure many here would find that news fascinating.
Never mind that, tell us more about Adam and Eve hunting down animals n stuff in the Garden Of Eden. I'm sure many here would find that news fascinating.
.
it's fascinating you have to make up stories to slander someone you can not handle otherwise ... reaping what you sow, too bad how seldom the instigator is held accountable.
When I read your posts I can almost hear the hissing in your voice.
 

BreezeWood

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Ran across this little essay while looking for something else, and though it interesting enough to post for newbies at textual analysis, at least.

"Consider the following lengthy quotation written by a Messianic Jew, Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum, in his book titled Israelology:
Those who argue for a mandatory Sabbath observance on the basis of the Law of Moses will often refer to Exodus 31:13, which states that the Sabbath is to be observed throughout your generations; 31:16, that the Sabbath is to be a perpetual covenant; and, 31:17 where it is to be a sign between God and Israel for ever. According to the proponents of mandatory Sabbath-keeping, these terms show that the Sabbath obligation continues, although many other parts of the Mosaic Law are no longer in effect, such as the sacrificial system and the Levitical priesthood. However, while the English terms do tend to carry concepts of eternity, that is not the meaning of the Hebrew words themselves. Classical Hebrew had no word that actually meant “eternal.” The Hebrew term for “forever” (olam) as BDB states, means “long duration,” “antiquity,” or “futurity.” The Hebrew forms mean nothing more than, “until the end of a period of time.” What that period of time is must be determined by the context or determined by related passages. In classical Hebrew, these words never meant or carried the concept of eternity, but had a time limitation. The period of time may have been to the end of a man’s life, or an age, or dispensation, but not for ever in the sense of eternity. This is very clear from examining the usage of the same terminology in other passages.
For example, the same Hebrew term for for ever is used to mean nothing more than up to the end of a man’s life in Exodus 21:6:
Then his master shall bring him unto God, and shall bring him to the door, or onto the door-post; his master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him for ever. (Not for eternity, but for the rest of his life).
Deuteronomy 15:17:
Then thou shalt take an awl, and thrust it through his ear onto the door, and he shall be thy servant for ever. (Not for eternity, but for the rest of his life.)
1 Samuel 1:22:
But Hannah went not up; for she said unto her husband, I will not go up until the child be weaned; and then I will bring him, that he may appear before Jehovah, and there abide for ever. (Not for eternity, but for the rest of his life.)
1 Chronicles 28:4:
Howbeit Jehovah, the God of Israel, chose me out of all the house of my father to be king of Israel for ever: … (David did not rule over Jerusalem for eternity, but he did rule for the rest of his life.)
Other examples where olam means only to the end of a man’s life include Exodus 14:13; Leviticus 25:46; 1 Samuel 20:23 and 27:12. Another way that the same term was used is when God said that He would dwell in the Solomonic Temple for ever in 1 Kings 9:3:
And Jehovah said unto him, I have heard thy prayer and thy supplication, that thou has made before me: I have hallowed this house, which thou has built, to put my name there for ever; and mine eyes and my heart shall be there perpetually
The same statement is made in 2 Chronicles 7:16. However, God left the Temple in the days of Ezekiel. Obviously, for ever here meant the age or period of time of the First Temple only.
In Deuteronomy 23:3, the concept of for ever is clearly limited:
An Ammonite or a Moabite shall not enter into the assembly of Jehovah; even to the tenth generation shall none belonging to them enter into the assembly of Jehovah for ever.
Obviously here for ever is limited to ten generations.
Even more relevant to the issue at hand is that the same term is applied to other facets of the Law of Moses besides the Sabbath, such as the kindling of the Tabernacle lampstands (Exod. 27:21; Lev. 24:3); the ceremony of showbread (Lev. 24:8); the service of the brazen laver (Exod. 30:21); the Levitical priesthood and the priestly garments (Exod. 28:43; 40:15; Lev. 10:9; Num. 10:8; 18:23; 25:13; 1 Chron. 15:2; 23:13); the sacrificial system, including sacrifices, offerings, etc. (Exod. 29:28; Lev. 7:34, 36; 10:15; Num. 15:15; 18:8, 11, 19; 19:10); and, the Yom Kippur sacrifice (Lev. 16:34). If it is insisted that the Sabbath is still mandatory on the basis of the English word “forever,” then the same thing would have to apply to all these other facets of the Law of Moses. Yet those who insist on mandatory Sabbath-keeping will insist that the Messiah has put an end to all the others.
As for the term perpetual covenant, it is also used of the ceremony of the showbread in Leviticus 24:9
As for the term throughout your generations, this too is limited in time. It is used of a man’s life (Lev. 25:30); the Levitical priesthood (Exod. 40:15; Lev. 10:9; Num. 10:8; 18:23); the ceremony of the lampstands (Exod. 27:21; Lev. 24:3); the service of the brazen laver (Exod. 30:21); and the sacrificial system (Lev. 7:36; Num. 15:15).
It is inconsistent exegesis to insist on the basis of such terms as forever, throughout your generations, and perpetual covenant that the Sabbath law is still mandatory without incorporating all of these other elements from the Law of Moses for the same reason. (Israelology, pp. 655–657)"

Not much interested in the HRM movement but if you are then fine, I don't mind people discussing it; I just wanted to pass the above along.
Ran across this little essay while looking for something else ...
.
no need to read any further .... day dreaming by picaro.


that the Sabbath is to be a perpetual covenant - The Hebrew forms mean nothing more than, “until the end of a period of time.” What that period of time is must be determined by the context or determined by related passages.

sabbath - is a perfect completion, timeless what the Almighty deemed of their creation and likewise the same for those attempting admission to the Everlasting, a specific triumph a sabbath is required - - being irreversible as the means to be granted judgement.
Never mind that, tell us more about Adam and Eve hunting down animals n stuff in the Garden Of Eden. I'm sure many here would find that news fascinating.
Never mind that, tell us more about Adam and Eve hunting down animals n stuff in the Garden Of Eden. I'm sure many here would find that news fascinating.
.
it's fascinating you have to make up stories to slander someone you can not handle otherwise ... reaping what you sow, too bad how seldom the instigator is held accountable.
When I read your posts I can almost hear the hissing in your voice.
When I read your posts I can almost hear the hissing in your voice.
.
really,
no, actually that is your dilemma to solve being a serpent, - I did make a comment ....

sabbath - is a perfect completion, timeless what the Almighty deemed of their creation and likewise the same for those attempting admission to the Everlasting, a specific triumph a sabbath is required - - being irreversible as the means to be granted judgement.

your not alone, the other one slithered away hearing things as well.
 

ding

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Ran across this little essay while looking for something else, and though it interesting enough to post for newbies at textual analysis, at least.

"Consider the following lengthy quotation written by a Messianic Jew, Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum, in his book titled Israelology:
Those who argue for a mandatory Sabbath observance on the basis of the Law of Moses will often refer to Exodus 31:13, which states that the Sabbath is to be observed throughout your generations; 31:16, that the Sabbath is to be a perpetual covenant; and, 31:17 where it is to be a sign between God and Israel for ever. According to the proponents of mandatory Sabbath-keeping, these terms show that the Sabbath obligation continues, although many other parts of the Mosaic Law are no longer in effect, such as the sacrificial system and the Levitical priesthood. However, while the English terms do tend to carry concepts of eternity, that is not the meaning of the Hebrew words themselves. Classical Hebrew had no word that actually meant “eternal.” The Hebrew term for “forever” (olam) as BDB states, means “long duration,” “antiquity,” or “futurity.” The Hebrew forms mean nothing more than, “until the end of a period of time.” What that period of time is must be determined by the context or determined by related passages. In classical Hebrew, these words never meant or carried the concept of eternity, but had a time limitation. The period of time may have been to the end of a man’s life, or an age, or dispensation, but not for ever in the sense of eternity. This is very clear from examining the usage of the same terminology in other passages.
For example, the same Hebrew term for for ever is used to mean nothing more than up to the end of a man’s life in Exodus 21:6:
Then his master shall bring him unto God, and shall bring him to the door, or onto the door-post; his master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him for ever. (Not for eternity, but for the rest of his life).
Deuteronomy 15:17:
Then thou shalt take an awl, and thrust it through his ear onto the door, and he shall be thy servant for ever. (Not for eternity, but for the rest of his life.)
1 Samuel 1:22:
But Hannah went not up; for she said unto her husband, I will not go up until the child be weaned; and then I will bring him, that he may appear before Jehovah, and there abide for ever. (Not for eternity, but for the rest of his life.)
1 Chronicles 28:4:
Howbeit Jehovah, the God of Israel, chose me out of all the house of my father to be king of Israel for ever: … (David did not rule over Jerusalem for eternity, but he did rule for the rest of his life.)
Other examples where olam means only to the end of a man’s life include Exodus 14:13; Leviticus 25:46; 1 Samuel 20:23 and 27:12. Another way that the same term was used is when God said that He would dwell in the Solomonic Temple for ever in 1 Kings 9:3:
And Jehovah said unto him, I have heard thy prayer and thy supplication, that thou has made before me: I have hallowed this house, which thou has built, to put my name there for ever; and mine eyes and my heart shall be there perpetually
The same statement is made in 2 Chronicles 7:16. However, God left the Temple in the days of Ezekiel. Obviously, for ever here meant the age or period of time of the First Temple only.
In Deuteronomy 23:3, the concept of for ever is clearly limited:
An Ammonite or a Moabite shall not enter into the assembly of Jehovah; even to the tenth generation shall none belonging to them enter into the assembly of Jehovah for ever.
Obviously here for ever is limited to ten generations.
Even more relevant to the issue at hand is that the same term is applied to other facets of the Law of Moses besides the Sabbath, such as the kindling of the Tabernacle lampstands (Exod. 27:21; Lev. 24:3); the ceremony of showbread (Lev. 24:8); the service of the brazen laver (Exod. 30:21); the Levitical priesthood and the priestly garments (Exod. 28:43; 40:15; Lev. 10:9; Num. 10:8; 18:23; 25:13; 1 Chron. 15:2; 23:13); the sacrificial system, including sacrifices, offerings, etc. (Exod. 29:28; Lev. 7:34, 36; 10:15; Num. 15:15; 18:8, 11, 19; 19:10); and, the Yom Kippur sacrifice (Lev. 16:34). If it is insisted that the Sabbath is still mandatory on the basis of the English word “forever,” then the same thing would have to apply to all these other facets of the Law of Moses. Yet those who insist on mandatory Sabbath-keeping will insist that the Messiah has put an end to all the others.
As for the term perpetual covenant, it is also used of the ceremony of the showbread in Leviticus 24:9
As for the term throughout your generations, this too is limited in time. It is used of a man’s life (Lev. 25:30); the Levitical priesthood (Exod. 40:15; Lev. 10:9; Num. 10:8; 18:23); the ceremony of the lampstands (Exod. 27:21; Lev. 24:3); the service of the brazen laver (Exod. 30:21); and the sacrificial system (Lev. 7:36; Num. 15:15).
It is inconsistent exegesis to insist on the basis of such terms as forever, throughout your generations, and perpetual covenant that the Sabbath law is still mandatory without incorporating all of these other elements from the Law of Moses for the same reason. (Israelology, pp. 655–657)"

Not much interested in the HRM movement but if you are then fine, I don't mind people discussing it; I just wanted to pass the above along.
Ran across this little essay while looking for something else ...
.
no need to read any further .... day dreaming by picaro.


that the Sabbath is to be a perpetual covenant - The Hebrew forms mean nothing more than, “until the end of a period of time.” What that period of time is must be determined by the context or determined by related passages.

sabbath - is a perfect completion, timeless what the Almighty deemed of their creation and likewise the same for those attempting admission to the Everlasting, a specific triumph a sabbath is required - - being irreversible as the means to be granted judgement.
Never mind that, tell us more about Adam and Eve hunting down animals n stuff in the Garden Of Eden. I'm sure many here would find that news fascinating.
Never mind that, tell us more about Adam and Eve hunting down animals n stuff in the Garden Of Eden. I'm sure many here would find that news fascinating.
.
it's fascinating you have to make up stories to slander someone you can not handle otherwise ... reaping what you sow, too bad how seldom the instigator is held accountable.
When I read your posts I can almost hear the hissing in your voice.
When I read your posts I can almost hear the hissing in your voice.
.
really,
no, actually that is your dilemma to solve being a serpent, - I did make a comment ....

sabbath - is a perfect completion, timeless what the Almighty deemed of their creation and likewise the same for those attempting admission to the Everlasting, a specific triumph a sabbath is required - - being irreversible as the means to be granted judgement.
your not alone, the other one slithered away hearing things as well.
You are the one behaving like a snake, bro. And it's not a good look.

I like how you spout dogma uninvited and when invited you clam up with do good.

I can't tell if you are spouting Scientology or liberation theology.
 
OP
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Picaro

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it's fascinating you have to make up stories to slander someone you can not handle otherwise ... reaping what you sow, too bad how seldom the instigator is held accountable.
lol what made up story are you babbling about? You claimed Adam and Eve were hunters, not me. I merely asked you what you think they hunted. I didn't even say you were lying about that, even though it's clear you are. What is clear is you're babbling shit you read on a web page somewhere, trying to pass it off as coming from bible verses, but you've never read the books or even bothered to look up anything to verify what you lifted from web pages. You're even more delusional than those Linux cultists who wet themselves when some heathen posts 'sacrilegious content' in one of their worship sessions in the PC forum and goes nuts.
 
Last edited:

ding

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that the Sabbath is to be a perpetual covenant - The Hebrew forms mean nothing more than, “until the end of a period of time.” What that period of time is must be determined by the context or determined by related passages.

sabbath - is a perfect completion, timeless what the Almighty deemed of their creation and likewise the same for those attempting admission to the Everlasting, a specific triumph a sabbath is required - - being irreversible as the means to be granted judgement.
Maimonides responds...

IT is perhaps clear why the laws concerning Sabbath are so severe, that their transgression is visited with death by stoning, and that the greatest of the prophets put a person to death for breaking the Sabbath. The commandment of the Sabbath is the third from the commandment concerning the existence and the unity of God. For the commandment not to worship any other being is merely an explanation of the first. You know already from what I have said, that no opinions retain their vitality except those which are confirmed, published, and by certain actions constantly revived among the people. Therefore we are told in the Law to honour this day; in order to confirm thereby the principle of Creation which will spread in the world, when all peoples keep Sabbath on the same day. For when the question is asked, why this is done, the answer is given: "For in six days the Lord hath made," etc. (Exod. 20:11). Two different reasons are given for this commandment, because of two different objects. In the Decalogue in Exodus, the following reason is given for distinguishing the Sabbath: "For in six days," etc. But in Deuteronomy (chap. 5:15) the reason is given: "And thou shalt remember that thou hast been a slave in the land of Egypt, etc., therefore the Lord thy God commanded thee," etc. This difference can easily be explained. In the former, the cause of the honour and distinction of the day is given; comp. "Therefore the Lord hath blessed the day of the Sabbath and sanctified it" (Exod. 20:10), and the cause for this is, "For in six days," etc. But the fact that God has given us the law of the Sabbath and commanded us to keep it, is the consequence of our having been slaves; for then our work did not depend on our will, nor could we choose the time for it; and we could not rest. Thus God commanded us to abstain from work on the Sabbath, and to rest, for two purposes; namely, (1) That we might confirm the true theory, that of the Creation, which at once and clearly leads to the theory of the existence of God. (2) That we might remember how kind God has been in freeing us from the burden of the Egyptians.--The Sabbath is therefore a double blessing: it gives us correct notions, and also promotes the well-being of our bodies.
 

ding

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it's fascinating you have to make up stories to slander someone you can not handle otherwise ... reaping what you sow, too bad how seldom the instigator is held accountable.
lol what made up story are you babbling about? You claimed Adam and Eve were hunters, not me. I merely asked you what you think they hunted. I didn't even say you were lying about that, even though it's clear you are. What is clear is you're babbling shit you read on a web page somewhere, trying to pass it off as coming from bible verses, but you've never read the books or even bothered to look up anything to verify what you lifted from web pages. You're even more delusional than those Linux cultists who wet themselves when some heathen posts 'sacrilegious content' in one of their worship sessions in the PC forum and goes nuts.
Exactly. I think he makes up stuff as he goes.
 

BreezeWood

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it's fascinating you have to make up stories to slander someone you can not handle otherwise ... reaping what you sow, too bad how seldom the instigator is held accountable.
lol what made up story are you babbling about? You claimed Adam and Eve were hunters, not me. I merely asked you what you think they hunted. I didn't even say you were lying about that, even though it's clear you are. What is clear is you're babbling shit you read on a web page somewhere, trying to pass it off as coming from bible verses, but you've never read the books or even bothered to look up anything to verify what you lifted from web pages. You're even more delusional than those Linux cultists who wet themselves when some heathen posts 'sacrilegious content' in one of their worship sessions in the PC forum and goes nuts.
lol what made up story are you babbling about? You claimed Adam and Eve were hunters, not me.
.
I use the quote function, picaro for legitimacy your entire response is a fallacious attempt to justify your degenerate political dogma wraped in pseudo religious affiliation for justification - buttercup isn't worth emptying your soul.

provide the quote you are referencing or retract your slanderous post. or properly admit your plagiarism.
 

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