The Many Collapses of Keynesianism

[Paulie]

I think this is fair. Freud's Narcissism of Small Differences and all that. It's kind of like differentiating between Fabians and Trotskyites.

They may be small in some sense, as Friedman may have been mostly for the free market, but they were rather drastic differences in actuality. The Austrian position on the Federal Reserve and Friedman's position, for example, would lead to very different outcomes.

Not necessarily. Friedman generally agreed that inflation was a monetary problem.

But he didn't agree with the Austrian theory of the business cycle, which is a theory pretty much alone on an island in economics. Not agreeing with that pretty much precludes one from being an Austrian.

 

[Toro]

They may be small in some sense, as Friedman may have been mostly for the free market, but they were rather drastic differences in actuality. The Austrian position on the Federal Reserve and Friedman's position, for example, would lead to very different outcomes.

Not necessarily. Friedman generally agreed that inflation was a monetary problem.

But he didn't agree with the Austrian theory of the business cycle, which is a theory pretty much alone on an island in economics. Not agreeing with that pretty much precludes one from being an Austrian.

As I noted earlier, Friedman was not an Austrian. But that doesn't mean Friedman was wrong. Nor does it mean that Friedman was not a strong adherent of free market capitalism.

 

[Brutus]

the Fed with a huge assist from Fanny Freddie who bought the mortgages and so gave the banks even more to lend.

Its more accurate to simply say liberalism caused the recession.

Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Utter bullshit. How can we possibly make the proper changes moving forward, when a segment of the population has no clue as to how we got in this mess.

Private sector loans, not Fannie or Freddie, triggered crisis.

* More than 84 percent of the subprime mortgages in 2006 were issued by private lending institutions.

* Private firms made nearly 83 percent of the subprime loans to low- and moderate-income borrowers that year.

* Only one of the top 25 subprime lenders in 2006 was directly subject to the housing law that's being lambasted by conservative critics.

Between 2004 and 2006, when subprime lending was exploding, Fannie and Freddie went from holding a high of 48 percent of the subprime loans that were sold into the secondary market to holding about 24 percent, according to data from Inside Mortgage Finance, a specialty publication. One reason is that Fannie and Freddie were subject to tougher standards than many of the unregulated players in the private sector who weakened lending standards, most of whom have gone bankrupt or are now in deep trouble.

During those same explosive three years, private investment banks — not Fannie and Freddie — dominated the mortgage loans that were packaged and sold into the secondary mortgage market. In 2005 and 2006, the private sector securitized almost two thirds of all U.S. mortgages, supplanting Fannie and Freddie, according to a number of specialty publications that track this data.

How indeed. Of course private lenders were behaving dangerously as much as public lenders were, and who made it possible for this to happen? The Federal Reserve.

The facts are simply:

1) The Fed printed the money that was used to to buy and bid up the prices of all those houses. It was not the Girl Scouts

2) Fanny Freddie Frank Dodd did not issue mortgages, but bought or securitized most of them, and determined standards for probably 80% of all mortgages. They were the huge elephant in the room that set all the standards for the entire industry. They existed and grew and grew because they enabled mortgages the free market would not!!

Liberalism caused the Great Recession!

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Utter bullshit. How can we possibly make the proper changes moving forward, when a segment of the population has no clue as to how we got in this mess.

Private sector loans, not Fannie or Freddie, triggered crisis.

* More than 84 percent of the subprime mortgages in 2006 were issued by private lending institutions.

* Private firms made nearly 83 percent of the subprime loans to low- and moderate-income borrowers that year.

* Only one of the top 25 subprime lenders in 2006 was directly subject to the housing law that's being lambasted by conservative critics.

Between 2004 and 2006, when subprime lending was exploding, Fannie and Freddie went from holding a high of 48 percent of the subprime loans that were sold into the secondary market to holding about 24 percent, according to data from Inside Mortgage Finance, a specialty publication. One reason is that Fannie and Freddie were subject to tougher standards than many of the unregulated players in the private sector who weakened lending standards, most of whom have gone bankrupt or are now in deep trouble.

During those same explosive three years, private investment banks — not Fannie and Freddie — dominated the mortgage loans that were packaged and sold into the secondary mortgage market. In 2005 and 2006, the private sector securitized almost two thirds of all U.S. mortgages, supplanting Fannie and Freddie, according to a number of specialty publications that track this data.

How indeed. Of course private lenders were behaving dangerously as much as public lenders were, and who made it possible for this to happen? The Federal Reserve.

The facts are simply:

1) The Fed printed the money that was used to to buy and bid up the prices of all those houses. It was not the Girl Scouts

2) Fanny Freddie Frank Dodd did not issue mortgages, but bought or securitized most of them, and determined standards for probably 80% of all mortgages. They were the huge elephant in the room that set all the standards for the entire industry. They existed and grew and grew because they enabled mortgages the free market would not!!

Liberalism caused the Great Recession!

Liberals and their policies helped to cause the recession, along with conservatives.

 

[Brutus]

They may be small in some sense, as Friedman may have been mostly for the free market, but they were rather drastic differences in actuality. The Austrian position on the Federal Reserve and Friedman's position, for example, would lead to very different outcomes.

Not necessarily. Friedman generally agreed that inflation was a monetary problem.

But he didn't agree with the Austrian theory of the business cycle, which is a theory pretty much alone on an island in economics. Not agreeing with that pretty much precludes one from being an Austrian.

Actually he did generally agree on the business cycle and letting the free market correct it. But, when you have a huge distortion in the market place, as we had in 1929, that was caused by government intervention, Friedman was right in concluding that the free market can't correct a totalitarian central banks ongoing distortions.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Not necessarily. Friedman generally agreed that inflation was a monetary problem.

But he didn't agree with the Austrian theory of the business cycle, which is a theory pretty much alone on an island in economics. Not agreeing with that pretty much precludes one from being an Austrian.

Actually he did generally agree on the business cycle and letting the free market correct it. But, when you have a huge distortion in the market place, as we had in 1929, that was caused by government intervention, Friedman was right in concluding that the free market can't correct a totalitarian central banks ongoing distortions.

A problem caused by government interference isn't going to be solved by more government interference.

 

[Brutus]

How indeed. Of course private lenders were behaving dangerously as much as public lenders were, and who made it possible for this to happen? The Federal Reserve.

The facts are simply:

1) The Fed printed the money that was used to to buy and bid up the prices of all those houses. It was not the Girl Scouts

2) Fanny Freddie Frank Dodd did not issue mortgages, but bought or securitized most of them, and determined standards for probably 80% of all mortgages. They were the huge elephant in the room that set all the standards for the entire industry. They existed and grew and grew because they enabled mortgages the free market would not!!

Liberalism caused the Great Recession!

Liberals and their policies helped to cause the recession, along with conservatives.

so then why be so afraid to tell us exactly what conservatives did???

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

The facts are simply:

1) The Fed printed the money that was used to to buy and bid up the prices of all those houses. It was not the Girl Scouts

2) Fanny Freddie Frank Dodd did not issue mortgages, but bought or securitized most of them, and determined standards for probably 80% of all mortgages. They were the huge elephant in the room that set all the standards for the entire industry. They existed and grew and grew because they enabled mortgages the free market would not!!

Liberalism caused the Great Recession!

Liberals and their policies helped to cause the recession, along with conservatives.

so then why be so afraid to tell us exactly what conservatives did???

Did they repeal any of the legislation that they now blame the crisis on when they had the power to do so? No. Did they do anything about the Federal Reserve? No.

 

[Brutus]

But he didn't agree with the Austrian theory of the business cycle, which is a theory pretty much alone on an island in economics. Not agreeing with that pretty much precludes one from being an Austrian.

Actually he did generally agree on the business cycle and letting the free market correct it. But, when you have a huge distortion in the market place, as we had in 1929, that was caused by government intervention, Friedman was right in concluding that the free market can't correct a totalitarian central banks ongoing distortions.

A problem caused by government interference isn't going to be solved by more government interference.

actually if the government interferes by printing all the money, and then the money disappears, the the governemnt must replace it, not the Girl Scouts.

 

[Bfgrn]

Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Utter bullshit. How can we possibly make the proper changes moving forward, when a segment of the population has no clue as to how we got in this mess.

Private sector loans, not Fannie or Freddie, triggered crisis.

* More than 84 percent of the subprime mortgages in 2006 were issued by private lending institutions.

* Private firms made nearly 83 percent of the subprime loans to low- and moderate-income borrowers that year.

* Only one of the top 25 subprime lenders in 2006 was directly subject to the housing law that's being lambasted by conservative critics.

Between 2004 and 2006, when subprime lending was exploding, Fannie and Freddie went from holding a high of 48 percent of the subprime loans that were sold into the secondary market to holding about 24 percent, according to data from Inside Mortgage Finance, a specialty publication. One reason is that Fannie and Freddie were subject to tougher standards than many of the unregulated players in the private sector who weakened lending standards, most of whom have gone bankrupt or are now in deep trouble.

During those same explosive three years, private investment banks — not Fannie and Freddie — dominated the mortgage loans that were packaged and sold into the secondary mortgage market. In 2005 and 2006, the private sector securitized almost two thirds of all U.S. mortgages, supplanting Fannie and Freddie, according to a number of specialty publications that track this data.

How indeed. Of course private lenders were behaving dangerously as much as public lenders were, and who made it possible for this to happen? The Federal Reserve.

The facts are simply:

1) The Fed printed the money that was used to to buy and bid up the prices of all those houses. It was not the Girl Scouts

2) Fanny Freddie Frank Dodd did not issue mortgages, but bought or securitized most of them, and determined standards for probably 80% of all mortgages. They were the huge elephant in the room that set all the standards for the entire industry. They existed and grew and grew because they enabled mortgages the free market would not!!

Liberalism caused the Great Recession!

The price of houses was driven by supply and demand. WHAT part of FACTS that refute your bullshit don't you comprehend???

Need more facts???

Here are FACTS we DO know about the financial crisis:

1) The financial crisis was not caused by low and middle income families buying a home.

2) It was not caused by dead beat poor people.

3) Fannie and Freddie were not to cause.

4) The Community Investment Act was not the culprit either.

The crisis was caused by private lending, to mostly upper middle class and the wealthy. ONLY 6% of of all the higher-priced loans were extended by CRA-covered lenders to lower-income borrowers or neighborhoods in their CRA assessment areas. The majority of those foreclosed on were wealthy and upper middle class, plus a large segment of buyers who were wealthy home flippers looking for a fast buck. They strategically walked away from their mortgages, leaving people who bought homes to live in with lower values on their house and neighborhood.

AND, what really sucks for the right wing propaganda of lies, all the way back to the late '90's there was one very outspoken and vocal critic of predatory lending practices, they even held protests at companies like Wells Fargo and Lehman Brothers...ACORN


WSJ - Fed’s Kroszner: Don’t Blame CRA

WSJ - Fed’s Kroszner: Don’t Blame CRA - The Sequel

Reuters - UPDATE 2-Lending to poor didn't spur crisis

Don't Blame the Community Reinvestment Act

Business Insider - Here's Why Fannie And Freddie Are Not At Fault For The Housing Bubble

Center for Responsible Lending - CRA is not to Blame for the Mortgage Meltdown

Don't blame Fannie and Freddie

Private sector loans, not Fannie or Freddie, triggered crisis

ForeclosureS.com - ACORN - Progress in the Fight Against Predatory Lending

Acorn Led Financial Sector With Warnings on Lending

Biggest Defaulters on Mortgages Are the Rich

The Millionaire Foreclosure Club

Foreclosure double standard: Why the rich get away with defaulting

More Rich People Default On Mortgages

The rich bail faster on mortgages

Biggest Defaulters on Mortgages Are the Rich

Rich Borrowers More Likely to Default on Mortgage

Foreclosures & Walking Away: 60 Minutes Eyes an ‘Epidemic’

Speculation By Investors Largely Cause Of Foreclosure Crisis

How the Foreclosure Crisis Started: Investors, Speculators, Mortgage Fraud & Lax Lending Standards


"Eighty percent of Republicans are just Democrats that don't know what's going on"
Robert F. Kennedy Jr.

 

[Brutus]

Liberals and their policies helped to cause the recession, along with conservatives.

so then why be so afraid to tell us exactly what conservatives did???

Did they repeal any of the legislation that they now blame the crisis on when they had the power to do so? No. Did they do anything about the Federal Reserve? No.

when did they have the power to do so????? OF course they never had it!!

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

so then why be so afraid to tell us exactly what conservatives did???

Did they repeal any of the legislation that they now blame the crisis on when they had the power to do so? No. Did they do anything about the Federal Reserve? No.

when did they have the power to do so????? OF course they never had it!!

Republicans didn't control both houses of Congress any time during the Bush Presidency?

 

[Brutus]

Did they repeal any of the legislation that they now blame the crisis on when they had the power to do so? No. Did they do anything about the Federal Reserve? No.

when did they have the power to do so????? OF course they never had it!!

Republicans didn't control both houses of Congress any time during the Bush Presidency?

no no no!!! BO had a super majority and could not get a public option. You've got in office confused with in power. You need to think about that over and over.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

when did they have the power to do so????? OF course they never had it!!

Republicans didn't control both houses of Congress any time during the Bush Presidency?

no no no!!! BO had a super majority and could not get a public option. You've got in office confused with in power. You need to think about that over and over.

So, like I said, when Republicans had the chance they failed to act.

 

[Brutus]

One reason is that Fannie and Freddie were subject to tougher standards than many of the unregulated players in the private sector who weakened lending standards, most of whom have gone bankrupt or are now in deep trouble.

That of course is utter BS. Jamie Johnson spent his entire career always lowering mortgage standards so he could buy mortgages from poorer and poorer people. Angelo sold all of his mortgages to Fanny!! Fanny stayed in business by telling Congress that it was responsible for extending the dream of home ownership to more and more

 

[Brutus]

Republicans didn't control both houses of Congress any time during the Bush Presidency?

no no no!!! BO had a super majority and could not get a public option. You've got in office confused with in power. You need to think about that over and over.

So, like I said, when Republicans had the chance they failed to act.

you mostly can't act without a super majority or better, plus the support of the people!! Got it now?

 

[Paulie]

Not necessarily. Friedman generally agreed that inflation was a monetary problem.

But he didn't agree with the Austrian theory of the business cycle, which is a theory pretty much alone on an island in economics. Not agreeing with that pretty much precludes one from being an Austrian.

Actually he did generally agree on the business cycle and letting the free market correct it. But, when you have a huge distortion in the market place, as we had in 1929, that was caused by government intervention, Friedman was right in concluding that the free market can't correct a totalitarian central banks ongoing distortions.

No, Friedman did NOT agree with the Austrian theory of the business cycle.

 

[Truthmatters]

...The Great Depression was only great because Hoover and FDR didn't allow the correction to happen. The same reason that this recession is "great." Panics, depressions, recessions, or whatever you want to call them are all examples of the market trying to correct itself which is absolutely necessary...

This is true, and the hope is that more and more people will come to accept those realities.

...Fannie and Freddie were only able to do what they did because of the Fed...

What, for keeping interest rates low because inflation and unemployment was were under control? We can also blame what Fannie and Freddie did on the fact that the sun made life possible on the earth.

Those things appeared to be under control because we were in the boom phase. If credit hadn't been so cheap then banks couldn't have made all of those risky loans that they made, and who made credit cheap? The Fed. The market should be setting interest rates, not a central planner.

Dear mr Mises.

The banks didnt care about wether the money was cheap or not. They didnt care if the lendee paid the loan. They sold interest only loans to anyone who passed the "mirror test" and then repackaged those loans off into securities and then SOLD them.

Why do you people keep making up crap about what happened?

THey sold then you silly git. They made money off them and then fucked the entire world economy.

You know why they did that?

To make money.

They did it because they could.

They did it because the regulations were lifted on them acting as securities brokers.

Man you people are propganda thick in the membrains

 

[Paulie]

This is true, and the hope is that more and more people will come to accept those realities.
What, for keeping interest rates low because inflation and unemployment was were under control? We can also blame what Fannie and Freddie did on the fact that the sun made life possible on the earth.

Those things appeared to be under control because we were in the boom phase. If credit hadn't been so cheap then banks couldn't have made all of those risky loans that they made, and who made credit cheap? The Fed. The market should be setting interest rates, not a central planner.

Dear mr Mises.

The banks didnt care about wether the money was cheap or not. They didnt care if the lendee paid the loan. They sold interest only loans to anyone who passed the "mirror test" and then repackaged those loans off into securities and then SOLD them.

Why do you people keep making up crap about what happened?

THey sold then you silly git. They made money off them and then fucked the entire world economy.

You know why they did that?

To make money.

They did it because they could.

They did it because the regulations were lifted on them acting as securities brokers.

Man you people are propganda thick in the membrains

You're way too far out of your league to be posting in a thread like this.

 

[pinqy]

As far as a depression goes look at real unemployment figures which are conservatively in the teens.

The U-4, which is a little closer to the definition used when calculating the Depression numbers (includes discouraged workers) is 9.8%.

Going slightly broader, the U-5 is at 10.7%, and you'd have to make the Depression numbers bigger than they were to compare.

Anything higher is adding in people with jobs, or people who aren't available to work, or people who have not looked for work in so long (if ever) that their claims of wanting to work are not reliable or useful.