The Jews and the Native Americans

[sealadaigh]

Israel became a Kingdom in 1020 B.C.

There has never been a Palestine Nation nor Kingdom.
The Palestine State was created in 1964 (made up) by Yasser Arafat and other Arab nations. The Palestinian state is still more of a plan or ideal than an actual entity.

and israel ceased to be a kingdom 2000 years ago.

palestinian and arab culture have a different relationship with the land than european people. they are a tribal people and tribal peoples generally do not have what we define as nations. many cultures are like that.

try to respect the values and styles of other cultures instead of assuming that your culture's style is superior. it may be for you but not necessarily for them.

That bolded sentence certainly appears to be an argument that 'Palestinians' are not a 'nation' after all.

As to the 'respect the values and styles of other cultures instead of assuming that your culture's style is superior' - that is spectacular in its irony. Kudos!

"what WE define". i think of the palestinians as a people. nation is an ambiguous word and perhaps i used it erroneously but many people think of nations as states. i do.

there is no red sox nation. there are red sox fans...

so, you think a religious group of non-specific ethnicity has a right to form a state on a land that they inhabited at an arbitrary point in time?

 

[sealadaigh]

Very good post.

not really. religion may have its' indigenous origins to a region but the practitioners of that religion are not, as a rule, indigenous. "homelands" are based upon ethnicity. i find it hard to believe that there is a strong ethnic/genetic connection between a black ethiopean jew and a blonde haired, blue eyed russian jew.

One needn't find it easy to believe for a thing to be true. WEB DuBois and his wife had a blonde, blue-eyed daughter. She died while they were living in the South, because she became very ill. Her parents knew their daughter could get better care at a 'white' hospital - but they also knew they'd likely be charged with kidnapping if they tried to bring her for treatment. A terrible situation : ((

I notice a certain group of people always like to 'illustrate' with blond/e 'Russian' Jews......I've got a great many relatives who are very Slavic in looks: short slight brunets. The 'Rus' are another ethnic group entirely - half-Scandinavian like the famed 'Varangian Guard'.

marg, need i remind you that you are one of the main proponents that jews are a religious group and not an ethnic group.

all you really are doing in the last paragraph is making my point. i don't give a fig what ethnicity a particular jew is. it seems, however, that israelis do.

it rreally does seem like people are avoiding the question about making a statement in general terms reflecting th creation o israel that would apply to all people.

let's call it m"the mormon conundrum".

 

[sealadaigh]

Religion would not make a difference to me, so you can just ask should any group have a right to displace another group of people if that displaced group was there first?

Then we have to get philosophical and define what "rights" does any group or person have in originating a right to claim something as solely and exclusively their own and how can they establish that right without a collective group effort to protect it, they would need a tribe, government willing to share and protect those rights.

Territory is a human construction made to establish order and a way to be civilized in the hierarchy of needs, all human beings have the same basic needs.

Nobody really has a right to claim the earth as their own, humans are just inherently greedy it seems.

jews are a religious group. that is the basis of their claim.

so you think every group based upon whatever has a right to stake a claim on any land they have inhabited at some arbitrary point in time that they choose.

it was not the palestinians that chased those adherents of judaism out of the holy land nor was it the palestinians who slaughtered millions of jews in the mid 1900s, but they are the ones paying the price.

i no longer think you are seeking education on the issue as you claim. i think you are avoiding questions, dismissing arguments, and pursueing an agenda.

i have yet to see anyone come up with a general rule that applies to all people that accurately reflects the creation of israel. that is what equal treaatment is all about.

I think we have enough food, materials for shelter and water for everyone and because human beings are greedy they form tribes, governments and religions as a social construct to monopolize territories, it's seems to be inherent greed in humans.

Any opinion on which group is right is going to be bias.

The bias lies in which groups socially constructed story you adhere to.

Those stories may come to you from family traditions, patriotism, politics, religions, friends or some momental past experience that left an impact or imprint forming an allegiance to some group or cause.

If you strip away bias and indoctrination from the equation, all humans have the same basic needs and if one has a right to a basic need all humans have the same rights to basic needs.

so you are a utopian, egalitarian communist?

opinions may be biased but i think principles need not reflect bias. suggesting that all men should be treated in an equal manner is right. that is my bias.

 

[Michelle420]

jews are a religious group. that is the basis of their claim.

so you think every group based upon whatever has a right to stake a claim on any land they have inhabited at some arbitrary point in time that they choose.

it was not the palestinians that chased those adherents of judaism out of the holy land nor was it the palestinians who slaughtered millions of jews in the mid 1900s, but they are the ones paying the price.

i no longer think you are seeking education on the issue as you claim. i think you are avoiding questions, dismissing arguments, and pursueing an agenda.

i have yet to see anyone come up with a general rule that applies to all people that accurately reflects the creation of israel. that is what equal treaatment is all about.

I think we have enough food, materials for shelter and water for everyone and because human beings are greedy they form tribes, governments and religions as a social construct to monopolize territories, it's seems to be inherent greed in humans.

Any opinion on which group is right is going to be bias.

The bias lies in which groups socially constructed story you adhere to.

Those stories may come to you from family traditions, patriotism, politics, religions, friends or some momental past experience that left an impact or imprint forming an allegiance to some group or cause.

If you strip away bias and indoctrination from the equation, all humans have the same basic needs and if one has a right to a basic need all humans have the same rights to basic needs.

so you are a utopian, egalitarian communist?

opinions may be biased but i think principles need not reflect bias. suggesting that all men should be treated in an equal manner is right. that is my bias.

No I am none of those things, I was just answering your question from a philosophical standpoint.

All humans should treat each other with respect and honor the human right to have basic needs met.

Is owning a particular strip of any given land a basic human need if there is plenty of land to go around for everyone on this planet ?

What is the principle of this situation from your point of view?

 

[ForeverYoung436]

I think we have enough food, materials for shelter and water for everyone and because human beings are greedy they form tribes, governments and religions as a social construct to monopolize territories, it's seems to be inherent greed in humans.

Any opinion on which group is right is going to be bias.

The bias lies in which groups socially constructed story you adhere to.

Those stories may come to you from family traditions, patriotism, politics, religions, friends or some momental past experience that left an impact or imprint forming an allegiance to some group or cause.

If you strip away bias and indoctrination from the equation, all humans have the same basic needs and if one has a right to a basic need all humans have the same rights to basic needs.

so you are a utopian, egalitarian communist?

opinions may be biased but i think principles need not reflect bias. suggesting that all men should be treated in an equal manner is right. that is my bias.

No I am none of those things, I was just answering your question from a philosophical standpoint.

All humans should treat each other with respect and honor the human right to have basic needs met.

Is owning a particular strip of any given land a basic human need if there is plenty of land to go around for everyone on this planet ?

What is the principle of this situation from your point of view?

Israel is less than 1% of the Middle East.

 

[Michelle420]

so you are a utopian, egalitarian communist?

opinions may be biased but i think principles need not reflect bias. suggesting that all men should be treated in an equal manner is right. that is my bias.

No I am none of those things, I was just answering your question from a philosophical standpoint.

All humans should treat each other with respect and honor the human right to have basic needs met.

Is owning a particular strip of any given land a basic human need if there is plenty of land to go around for everyone on this planet ?

What is the principle of this situation from your point of view?

Israel is less than 1% of the Middle East.

Very small percent there

 

[peach174]

Israel became a Kingdom in 1020 B.C.

There has never been a Palestine Nation nor Kingdom.
The Palestine State was created in 1964 (made up) by Yasser Arafat and other Arab nations. The Palestinian state is still more of a plan or ideal than an actual entity.

Palestine is an Arabic country it is written in Torah because Canaanites are the Arabs,,
it is their lands forever ,,

Israelis came from all over the world, to dominate Palestinians lands and farms

Israelis steel their lands and souls while the world is watching

SHAME

The Quran, The Torah and the Bible all say that the land is Israel's and that the Israelis would return again to their promised land in the end times.
EDITOR'S CHOICE: Quran explicitly refers to the return of the Jews to the Land of Israel before the Last Judgment

 

[MHunterB]

The Origins and Evolution of the Palestine Problem - CEIRPP, DPR study, part II: 1947-1977 (30 June 1979)


British attempts to resolve the issue by the partition of Palestine into two independent States or by relinquishing the mandate with the consequent emergence of an independent unified Palestine had failed in the face of the opposition of the Palestinian Arabs to the former plan and of the Zionist movement to the latter.

I think the above quote from the UN-affiliated site explains the problem And I think that nothing much has changed in the years since.

 

[MHunterB]

The Arabs (not 'the Palestinans': this means the 'Arab League') opposed a State for the Jews of any size, in any location within the Mandate (which originally included what's now Jordan, and indeed the largest 'ethnic' group in Jordan are Palestinians and NOT 'refugee' ones, either).

The Zionists movement opposed a "unified" state which was going to include the land which they had PURCHASED.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

Israel became a Kingdom in 1020 B.C.

There has never been a Palestine Nation nor Kingdom.
The Palestine State was created in 1964 (made up) by Yasser Arafat and other Arab nations. The Palestinian state is still more of a plan or ideal than an actual entity.

Palestine is an Arabic country it is written in Torah because Canaanites are the Arabs,,
it is their lands forever ,,

Israelis came from all over the world, to dominate Palestinians lands and farms

Israelis steel their lands and souls while the world is watching

SHAME

The Quran, The Torah and the Bible all say that the land is Israel's and that the Israelis would return again to their promised land in the end times.
EDITOR'S CHOICE: Quran explicitly refers to the return of the Jews to the Land of Israel before the Last Judgment

The Canaanites were not Arabs. After Mohammed's death, the Arabs came out from Arabia (hence the name), and conquered the Middle East and North Africa. The Canaanites were mostly destroyed, in ancient times, by Joshua and Deborah the Prophetess.

 

[ThirdTerm]

Israel's legitimacy is based on the Balfour Declaration of 1917, which promised the establishment of Palestine as a national home for the Jewish people, and British Zionists had significant influence on British foreign policy at the time and they lobbied for the establishment of a Jewish colony and recruited Churchill as the most ardent supporter of the Zionist cause. Most subject peoples of the British Empire gained independence from the 1940s to the 1960s with the collapse of the British Empire and Israel was a settler colony similar to America and Canada and the status of the Israelis is comparable to white Americans.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Israel is less than 1% of the Middle East.

Yet it still offends Muslims that it exists.

One grain of sand not under Muslim control is more than Islam will tolerate.

That is what this whole thing comes down to.

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

Israel became a Kingdom in 1020 B.C.

There has never been a Palestine Nation nor Kingdom.
The Palestine State was created in 1964 (made up) by Yasser Arafat and other Arab nations. The Palestinian state is still more of a plan or ideal than an actual entity.

Palestine is an Arabic country it is written in Torah because Canaanites are the Arabs,,
it is their lands forever ,,

Israelis came from all over the world, to dominate Palestinians lands and farms

Israelis steel their lands and souls while the world is watching

SHAME

The Quran, The Torah and the Bible all say that the land is Israel's and that the Israelis would return again to their promised land in the end times.
EDITOR'S CHOICE: Quran explicitly refers to the return of the Jews to the Land of Israel before the Last Judgment

There is no "land of Israel" in the Bible. That is all a lie of Zionism.

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

Israel's legitimacy is based on the Balfour Declaration of 1917, which promised the establishment of Palestine as a national home for the Jewish people, and British Zionists had significant influence on British foreign policy at the time and they lobbied for the establishment of a Jewish colony and recruited Churchill as the most ardent supporter of the Zionist cause. Most subject peoples of the British Empire gained independence from the 1940s to the 1960s with the collapse of the British Empire and Israel was a settler colony similar to America and Canada and the status of the Israelis is comparable to white Americans.

But Britian never had sovereignty rights in the land.

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

The Arabs (not 'the Palestinans': this means the 'Arab League') opposed a State for the Jews of any size, in any location within the Mandate (which originally included what's now Jordan, and indeed the largest 'ethnic' group in Jordan are Palestinians and NOT 'refugee' ones, either).

The Zionists movement opposed a "unified" state which was going to include the land which they had PURCHASED.

There was no purchase of the land of Israel. When the Partition Plan was voted on, Zionists owned only 6 percent of the land and made up less than one third of the population. UN documents confirm these facts. And ethnic cleansing of Arabs from villages began months before Arab nations entered the war.

 

[MHunterB]

The Arabs (not 'the Palestinans': this means the 'Arab League') opposed a State for the Jews of any size, in any location within the Mandate (which originally included what's now Jordan, and indeed the largest 'ethnic' group in Jordan are Palestinians and NOT 'refugee' ones, either).

The Zionists movement opposed a "unified" state which was going to include the land which they had PURCHASED.

There was no purchase of the land of Israel. When the Partition Plan was voted on, Zionists owned only 6 percent of the land and made up less than one third of the population. UN documents confirm these facts. And ethnic cleansing of Arabs from villages began months before Arab nations entered the war.

Show me the 'UN documents'.....at least link to them. And you've also pretended that any 'ethnic cleansing' was only done to the Arabs......

The noises you make about 'Zionist lies and propaganda' are drowned out by your own lies and propaganda, sherrikins .....

 

[Michelle420]

Israel is less than 1% of the Middle East.

Yet it still offends Muslims that it exists.

One grain of sand not under Muslim control is more than Islam will tolerate.

That is what this whole thing comes down to.

That seems pretty greedy if that is what this is all about.

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

The Arabs (not 'the Palestinans': this means the 'Arab League') opposed a State for the Jews of any size, in any location within the Mandate (which originally included what's now Jordan, and indeed the largest 'ethnic' group in Jordan are Palestinians and NOT 'refugee' ones, either).

The Zionists movement opposed a "unified" state which was going to include the land which they had PURCHASED.

There was no purchase of the land of Israel. When the Partition Plan was voted on, Zionists owned only 6 percent of the land and made up less than one third of the population. UN documents confirm these facts. And ethnic cleansing of Arabs from villages began months before Arab nations entered the war.

Show me the 'UN documents'.....at least link to them. And you've also pretended that any 'ethnic cleansing' was only done to the Arabs......

The noises you make about 'Zionist lies and propaganda' are drowned out by your own lies and propaganda, sherrikins .....

"The transformation of Mandated Palestine At the culmination of a quarter century of Mandatory rule, Palestine had been radically transformed in demographic terms. The population of Palestine had increased tremendously - from the 750,000 of the 1922 census to almost 1,850,000 at the end of 1946 - an increase of nearly 250 per cent. During this period the Jewish population had soared from 56,000 after the First World War to 84,000 in 1922 to 608,000 in 1946, an increase of about 725 per cent.*141/ From constituting less than a tenth of the population in Palestine after the First World War, the Jewish community in 1947 constituted nearly a third. A good part of this was due to births within Palestine but legal immigration alone accounted for over 376,000, with illegal immigration being estimated at another 65,000 - a total of 440,000.*142/ This Jewish population was primarily urban - about 70 per cent to 75 per cent in and around the cities of Jerusalem, Jaffa-Tel Aviv and Haifa.*143/Land holding patterns had also changed considerably. From the 650,000 dunums held by Jewish organizations in 1920, of the total land area of 26 million dunums, the figure at the end of 1946 had reached 1,625,000 dunums - an increase of about 250 per cent*144/ and Jewish settlement had displaced large numbers of Palestinian Arab peasants. Even so, this area represented only 6.2 per cent of the total area of Palestine and 12 per cent of the cultivable land." *145/ http://unispal.un.org/unispal.nsf/5...aeac80e740c782e4852561150071fdb0?OpenDocument

 

[Jroc]

There was no purchase of the land of Israel. When the Partition Plan was voted on, Zionists owned only 6 percent of the land and made up less than one third of the population. UN documents confirm these facts. And ethnic cleansing of Arabs from villages began months before Arab nations entered the war.

Show me the 'UN documents'.....at least link to them. And you've also pretended that any 'ethnic cleansing' was only done to the Arabs......

The noises you make about 'Zionist lies and propaganda' are drowned out by your own lies and propaganda, sherrikins .....

"The transformation of Mandated Palestine At the culmination of a quarter century of Mandatory rule, Palestine had been radically transformed in demographic terms. The population of Palestine had increased tremendously - from the 750,000 of the 1922 census to almost 1,850,000 at the end of 1946 - an increase of nearly 250 per cent. During this period the Jewish population had soared from 56,000 after the First World War to 84,000 in 1922 to 608,000 in 1946, an increase of about 725 per cent.*141/ From constituting less than a tenth of the population in Palestine after the First World War, the Jewish community in 1947 constituted nearly a third. A good part of this was due to births within Palestine but legal immigration alone accounted for over 376,000, with illegal immigration being estimated at another 65,000 - a total of 440,000.*142/ This Jewish population was primarily urban - about 70 per cent to 75 per cent in and around the cities of Jerusalem, Jaffa-Tel Aviv and Haifa.*143/Land holding patterns had also changed considerably. From the 650,000 dunums held by Jewish organizations in 1920, of the total land area of 26 million dunums, the figure at the end of 1946 had reached 1,625,000 dunums - an increase of about 250 per cent*144/ and Jewish settlement had displaced large numbers of Palestinian Arab peasants. Even so, this area represented only 6.2 per cent of the total area of Palestine and 12 per cent of the cultivable land." *145/ The Origins and Evolution of the Palestine Problem - CEIRPP, DPR study, part I: 1917-1947 (30 June 1978)

Israel is there get used to it hater

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

Israel is less than 1% of the Middle East.

Yet it still offends Muslims that it exists.

One grain of sand not under Muslim control is more than Islam will tolerate.

That is what this whole thing comes down to.

That seems pretty greedy if that is what this is all about.

It is not what it is about at all. Its about millions unlawfully displaced from their lands and homes that includes Palestinian Christians.