The Humanitarian Gaza Flotillas Saga

[Roudy]

...Hamas ...will defend its people...

Some defense...

...It will not give away the store...

Don't look now, but there is no store left to give away...

...You can't say any of that about Fatah.

True.

What they can say is that Fatah did not bring about the ruin of Gaza... Hamas did.

What!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!So Israel had NO PART IN THIS DESTRUCTION,I ????? your morality Kondie,considering Israel fired over 66,000 bombs and shells into Gaza a year ago,creating 2000 deaths and continued trauma for Palestinian children inparticular..................your logic is somewhat skewed.

steve

Don't make war on Israel, and Israel will not make war on you.

Don't dig command-sortie tunnels underneath the Gaza-Israel border and the IDF won't bomb them into a collapse.

Don't fire rockets at Israeli civilian population centers and the IDF won't bomb those launchers.

Don't embed your war assets (launchers, command centers, barracks, sally-ports, munitions caches, etc.) within residential neighborhoods and in mosques and hospitals and schools, and don't hide behind the skirts of your women and children, and the IDF won't bomb those assets and cause substantive collateral casualties and damage.

These were all threats to Israeli security that Hamas intentionally served up.

Gazans have no one to blame but themselves for voting into power a cowardly terrorist organization sworn to (and taking actions to) attack and destroy Israel.

Don't want to see your friends and neighbors and family killed?

Don't vote for idiots (Hamas) who are going to create the conditions by which that becomes inevitable.

 

[Daniyel]

P F Tinmore, ForeverYoung436, et al,

Yes, the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS) is a both an Islamic Organization by Charter, and a Political Party (headed by: Khaled Meshal, Chairman, Politburo of the Islamic Resistance Movement) and the hub of a larger terrorist organization that uses violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims; the removal of the State of Israel. HAMAS is political, but we cannot forget that it has its own paramilitary wing called the Izz al Din Qassam Brigades (AQB) that is directed, funded and equipped by HAMAS; which has been responsible for most of the violence directed towards Israel.

Hamas is "only" a political party? Do you see Republicans in the U.S. shooting rockets? Democrats building tunnels?

In Palestine, where Hamas was elected, Hamas is a constitutionally protected political party.

They are only terrorists to Israel and their name calling lackeys in the west.

(KEY COMPONENTS)

First, the January 2006 Palestinian Parliamentary Elections, that brought HAMAS to the forefront, is now well over eight (8) years old. Whatever mandate the elections gave HAMAS eight years ago, has long since expired. The Palestinian Government has not been able to make a smooth Constitutional transition of government since the Constitution was written over a decade ago. Since the 1993 Oslo Accords, which created the Palestinian National Authority (PNA), the PNA acted as the interim administrative body established to administer the governmental institutions necessary for the West Bank. In 2012, the PNA essentially became the government for the State of Palestine when the UN decided to "accord to Palestine non-member observer State status in the United Nations, without prejudice to the acquired rights, privileges and role of the Palestine Liberation Organization in the United Nations as the representative of the Palestinian people," (A/RES/67/19 4 December 2012).

The trouble here is that HAMAS (a Palestinian Islamic organization) has rejected two key elements that have survived for three decades in Palestine:

• HAMAS rejects the PLO (secular) as the sole legitimate representative of the Palestinians,
  • Seventh Arab League Summit Conference Resolution on Palestine Rabat, Morocco 28 October 1974
  • Having heard the statement of the Palestine Liberation Organization, the representative of the Palestinian people, A/RES/3236 (XXIX) 22 November 1974
  • ANNEX II Political Communiqué and ANNEX III Palestinian Declaration of Independence
• HAMAS rejects the Oslo Accords.
  • Oslo I Declaration of Principles on Interim Self-Government Arrangements
  • Oslo II Israeli-Palestinian Interim Agreement on the West Bank and the Gaza Strip

HAMAS has a mantra ---- besides that of Jihad ---- in both the Covenant and its official Political Position:

• No recognition of the legitimacy of the Israeli occupation
• No recognition of "Israel"
  • Israel-PLO Recognition: Exchange of Letters between PM Rabin and Chairman Arafat - In connection with the Oslo Accords
• No legitimacy of Israel's presence in any part of Palestine from the river to the sea, and from north to south
  • A/RES/273 (III) 11 May 1949 UN Decides to admit Israel to membership in the United Nations

HAMAS is becoming a regional threat. In addition to HAMAS insisting it is Entitled To Attack Israel's Embassies, Interests, And Officials Worldwide – It also claims it has the right to attack The Interests Of Israel's Allies; as well as the US.

(COMMENT)

HAMAS is not just a political party. It is a regional danger; not just by itself --- but by the bad pennies it attracts. HAMAS and the Gaza Strip have developed an attraction for DAESH (Islamic State or Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant) that is attempting to establish itself on the Egyptian/Sinai Border region of the Gaza Strip and Israel.

It is rumored that a video, produced DAESH in the last week of June, is now making the rounds in the region. It is directed at the Palestinians (HAMAS and Fatah). The DAESH Jihadist accuses HAMAS of being soft in enforcing religious law in the Palestinian enclave it controls.

“We will uproot the state of the Jews [Israel] and you [Hamas] and Fatah [in the West Bank], and all of the secularists are nothing and you will be overrun by our creeping multitudes,” a masked Islamic State member said in the recorded message addressed to the “tyrants of Hamas.”

“The rule of Sharia [Islamic law] will be implemented in Gaza, in spite of you. We swear that what is happening in the Levant today, and in particular the Yarmouk camp [in Syria], will happen in Gaza,” he said, in reference to the besieged Palestinian refugee camp near Damascus.
SOURCE: Islamic State militant was booted from Hamas
SOURCE: Daesh threatens to overthrow Hamas in Gaza
SOURCE: ISIS Threatens To Topple Hamas In Gaza
​

HAMAS and Fatah may have more to worry about then its feud with Israel. If DAESH gets a firm foothold in the Gaza Strip from the Sinai --- it will probably cause Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt to get involved; inadvertently expanding the conflict.

YES, HAMAS is much much more than just an irritant politically.

Most Respectfully,
R

Hamas is not corrupt. It will defend its people. It will not give away the store.

You can't say any of that about Fatah.

Hamas is not corrupt.. - Just a legitimate dictatorship.
What with all the "Will" - how do you know Hamas "will" defend its people, when so far they didn't? only thing they strive for - and you the one supporting it should know out of everyone else - is WAR AGAINST ISRAEL'S JEWS - not even protecting "ITS" people including Hamas members.

We have seen Tinmore stick up for Hamas constantly so should we be surprised that even though Tinmore supposedly lives in the U.S. he was allowed to vote for Hamas?

Not so quick Hoss,considering it was the US and Israel that supported,armed and gave cash for the inception of Hamas in the first place...then demanded FREE AND FAIR,OPEN ELECTIONS of which Hamas was voted in,in Gaza.........your crocodile tears today seem somewhat Hypocritical don't you think ??? steve

Battle of Gaza 2007 - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
This was the last free and fair, opened elections.

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, ForeverYoung436, et al,

Yes, the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS) is a both an Islamic Organization by Charter, and a Political Party (headed by: Khaled Meshal, Chairman, Politburo of the Islamic Resistance Movement) and the hub of a larger terrorist organization that uses violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims; the removal of the State of Israel. HAMAS is political, but we cannot forget that it has its own paramilitary wing called the Izz al Din Qassam Brigades (AQB) that is directed, funded and equipped by HAMAS; which has been responsible for most of the violence directed towards Israel.

(KEY COMPONENTS)

First, the January 2006 Palestinian Parliamentary Elections, that brought HAMAS to the forefront, is now well over eight (8) years old. Whatever mandate the elections gave HAMAS eight years ago, has long since expired. The Palestinian Government has not been able to make a smooth Constitutional transition of government since the Constitution was written over a decade ago. Since the 1993 Oslo Accords, which created the Palestinian National Authority (PNA), the PNA acted as the interim administrative body established to administer the governmental institutions necessary for the West Bank. In 2012, the PNA essentially became the government for the State of Palestine when the UN decided to "accord to Palestine non-member observer State status in the United Nations, without prejudice to the acquired rights, privileges and role of the Palestine Liberation Organization in the United Nations as the representative of the Palestinian people," (A/RES/67/19 4 December 2012).

The trouble here is that HAMAS (a Palestinian Islamic organization) has rejected two key elements that have survived for three decades in Palestine:

• HAMAS rejects the PLO (secular) as the sole legitimate representative of the Palestinians,
  • Seventh Arab League Summit Conference Resolution on Palestine Rabat, Morocco 28 October 1974
  • Having heard the statement of the Palestine Liberation Organization, the representative of the Palestinian people, A/RES/3236 (XXIX) 22 November 1974
  • ANNEX II Political Communiqué and ANNEX III Palestinian Declaration of Independence
• HAMAS rejects the Oslo Accords.
  • Oslo I Declaration of Principles on Interim Self-Government Arrangements
  • Oslo II Israeli-Palestinian Interim Agreement on the West Bank and the Gaza Strip

HAMAS has a mantra ---- besides that of Jihad ---- in both the Covenant and its official Political Position:

• No recognition of the legitimacy of the Israeli occupation
• No recognition of "Israel"
  • Israel-PLO Recognition: Exchange of Letters between PM Rabin and Chairman Arafat - In connection with the Oslo Accords
• No legitimacy of Israel's presence in any part of Palestine from the river to the sea, and from north to south
  • A/RES/273 (III) 11 May 1949 UN Decides to admit Israel to membership in the United Nations

HAMAS is becoming a regional threat. In addition to HAMAS insisting it is Entitled To Attack Israel's Embassies, Interests, And Officials Worldwide – It also claims it has the right to attack The Interests Of Israel's Allies; as well as the US.

(COMMENT)

HAMAS is not just a political party. It is a regional danger; not just by itself --- but by the bad pennies it attracts. HAMAS and the Gaza Strip have developed an attraction for DAESH (Islamic State or Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant) that is attempting to establish itself on the Egyptian/Sinai Border region of the Gaza Strip and Israel.

It is rumored that a video, produced DAESH in the last week of June, is now making the rounds in the region. It is directed at the Palestinians (HAMAS and Fatah). The DAESH Jihadist accuses HAMAS of being soft in enforcing religious law in the Palestinian enclave it controls.

“We will uproot the state of the Jews [Israel] and you [Hamas] and Fatah [in the West Bank], and all of the secularists are nothing and you will be overrun by our creeping multitudes,” a masked Islamic State member said in the recorded message addressed to the “tyrants of Hamas.”

“The rule of Sharia [Islamic law] will be implemented in Gaza, in spite of you. We swear that what is happening in the Levant today, and in particular the Yarmouk camp [in Syria], will happen in Gaza,” he said, in reference to the besieged Palestinian refugee camp near Damascus.
SOURCE: Islamic State militant was booted from Hamas
SOURCE: Daesh threatens to overthrow Hamas in Gaza
SOURCE: ISIS Threatens To Topple Hamas In Gaza
​

HAMAS and Fatah may have more to worry about then its feud with Israel. If DAESH gets a firm foothold in the Gaza Strip from the Sinai --- it will probably cause Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt to get involved; inadvertently expanding the conflict.

YES, HAMAS is much much more than just an irritant politically.

Most Respectfully,
R

Hamas is not corrupt. It will defend its people. It will not give away the store.

You can't say any of that about Fatah.

Hamas is not corrupt.. - Just a legitimate dictatorship.
What with all the "Will" - how do you know Hamas "will" defend its people, when so far they didn't? only thing they strive for - and you the one supporting it should know out of everyone else - is WAR AGAINST ISRAEL'S JEWS - not even protecting "ITS" people including Hamas members.

We have seen Tinmore stick up for Hamas constantly so should we be surprised that even though Tinmore supposedly lives in the U.S. he was allowed to vote for Hamas?

Not so quick Hoss,considering it was the US and Israel that supported,armed and gave cash for the inception of Hamas in the first place...then demanded FREE AND FAIR,OPEN ELECTIONS of which Hamas was voted in,in Gaza.........your crocodile tears today seem somewhat Hypocritical don't you think ??? steve

When did the US "support, arm and give cash" to Hamas? Or Israel for that matter?
Hamas was voted into GAZA, split the functional govt of the Palestinians and left them (after a bloody political fight) with no more elections, no more chance to become a nation, and no chance at handling open international commerce on their own (which is what this thread is about).

Hamas is the principal reason why there are no open Seaports or Airports in Gaza. That's why there's no propaganda value in these "humanitarian flotillas".. Did you READ the Hamas "political platform" that PF posted? Think THAT represents the best chance for the Palestinians to become an independent nation or have a decent standard of living? Where are THOSE things in the values that Hamas represents.??

All this whining about being isolated barricaded, and confined are because there is NO political organization of the Palestinians after Hamas moved in..

There is a lot of confusion about Hamas and Gaza. Israel did not create Hamas. Israel did, however, allow Hamas to build itself into a sizable charity organization. I hear that Israel allowed Hamas, a religious organization, to be a counter to Fatah/PLO who nationalistic. To Israel's dismay, Hamas formed a military wing in 1988.

Hamas was not elected "in Gaza." The elections were for the PA that covered the West Bank and Gaza. Hamas won the majority of seats in the PLC (parliament) in 2006 that gave them the right to form a government. This government was approved by the PLC as required by their constitution and sworn in by Abbas. This was only a few months after Israel's disengagement from Gaza.

Of course Israel did not like this government. Another government was formed in 2007 but this post is getting long. I can fill you in on that one if you like.

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, ForeverYoung436, et al,

Yes, the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS) is a both an Islamic Organization by Charter, and a Political Party (headed by: Khaled Meshal, Chairman, Politburo of the Islamic Resistance Movement) and the hub of a larger terrorist organization that uses violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims; the removal of the State of Israel. HAMAS is political, but we cannot forget that it has its own paramilitary wing called the Izz al Din Qassam Brigades (AQB) that is directed, funded and equipped by HAMAS; which has been responsible for most of the violence directed towards Israel.

(KEY COMPONENTS)

First, the January 2006 Palestinian Parliamentary Elections, that brought HAMAS to the forefront, is now well over eight (8) years old. Whatever mandate the elections gave HAMAS eight years ago, has long since expired. The Palestinian Government has not been able to make a smooth Constitutional transition of government since the Constitution was written over a decade ago. Since the 1993 Oslo Accords, which created the Palestinian National Authority (PNA), the PNA acted as the interim administrative body established to administer the governmental institutions necessary for the West Bank. In 2012, the PNA essentially became the government for the State of Palestine when the UN decided to "accord to Palestine non-member observer State status in the United Nations, without prejudice to the acquired rights, privileges and role of the Palestine Liberation Organization in the United Nations as the representative of the Palestinian people," (A/RES/67/19 4 December 2012).

The trouble here is that HAMAS (a Palestinian Islamic organization) has rejected two key elements that have survived for three decades in Palestine:

• HAMAS rejects the PLO (secular) as the sole legitimate representative of the Palestinians,
  • Seventh Arab League Summit Conference Resolution on Palestine Rabat, Morocco 28 October 1974
  • Having heard the statement of the Palestine Liberation Organization, the representative of the Palestinian people, A/RES/3236 (XXIX) 22 November 1974
  • ANNEX II Political Communiqué and ANNEX III Palestinian Declaration of Independence
• HAMAS rejects the Oslo Accords.
  • Oslo I Declaration of Principles on Interim Self-Government Arrangements
  • Oslo II Israeli-Palestinian Interim Agreement on the West Bank and the Gaza Strip

HAMAS has a mantra ---- besides that of Jihad ---- in both the Covenant and its official Political Position:

• No recognition of the legitimacy of the Israeli occupation
• No recognition of "Israel"
  • Israel-PLO Recognition: Exchange of Letters between PM Rabin and Chairman Arafat - In connection with the Oslo Accords
• No legitimacy of Israel's presence in any part of Palestine from the river to the sea, and from north to south
  • A/RES/273 (III) 11 May 1949 UN Decides to admit Israel to membership in the United Nations

HAMAS is becoming a regional threat. In addition to HAMAS insisting it is Entitled To Attack Israel's Embassies, Interests, And Officials Worldwide – It also claims it has the right to attack The Interests Of Israel's Allies; as well as the US.

(COMMENT)

HAMAS is not just a political party. It is a regional danger; not just by itself --- but by the bad pennies it attracts. HAMAS and the Gaza Strip have developed an attraction for DAESH (Islamic State or Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant) that is attempting to establish itself on the Egyptian/Sinai Border region of the Gaza Strip and Israel.

It is rumored that a video, produced DAESH in the last week of June, is now making the rounds in the region. It is directed at the Palestinians (HAMAS and Fatah). The DAESH Jihadist accuses HAMAS of being soft in enforcing religious law in the Palestinian enclave it controls.

“We will uproot the state of the Jews [Israel] and you [Hamas] and Fatah [in the West Bank], and all of the secularists are nothing and you will be overrun by our creeping multitudes,” a masked Islamic State member said in the recorded message addressed to the “tyrants of Hamas.”

“The rule of Sharia [Islamic law] will be implemented in Gaza, in spite of you. We swear that what is happening in the Levant today, and in particular the Yarmouk camp [in Syria], will happen in Gaza,” he said, in reference to the besieged Palestinian refugee camp near Damascus.
SOURCE: Islamic State militant was booted from Hamas
SOURCE: Daesh threatens to overthrow Hamas in Gaza
SOURCE: ISIS Threatens To Topple Hamas In Gaza
​

HAMAS and Fatah may have more to worry about then its feud with Israel. If DAESH gets a firm foothold in the Gaza Strip from the Sinai --- it will probably cause Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt to get involved; inadvertently expanding the conflict.

YES, HAMAS is much much more than just an irritant politically.

Most Respectfully,
R

Hamas is not corrupt. It will defend its people. It will not give away the store.

You can't say any of that about Fatah.

Hamas is not corrupt.. - Just a legitimate dictatorship.
What with all the "Will" - how do you know Hamas "will" defend its people, when so far they didn't? only thing they strive for - and you the one supporting it should know out of everyone else - is WAR AGAINST ISRAEL'S JEWS - not even protecting "ITS" people including Hamas members.

We have seen Tinmore stick up for Hamas constantly so should we be surprised that even though Tinmore supposedly lives in the U.S. he was allowed to vote for Hamas?

Not so quick Hoss,considering it was the US and Israel that supported,armed and gave cash for the inception of Hamas in the first place...then demanded FREE AND FAIR,OPEN ELECTIONS of which Hamas was voted in,in Gaza.........your crocodile tears today seem somewhat Hypocritical don't you think ??? steve

Battle of Gaza 2007 - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
This was the last free and fair, opened elections.

 

[flacaltenn]

P F Tinmore, ForeverYoung436, et al,

Yes, the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS) is a both an Islamic Organization by Charter, and a Political Party (headed by: Khaled Meshal, Chairman, Politburo of the Islamic Resistance Movement) and the hub of a larger terrorist organization that uses violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims; the removal of the State of Israel. HAMAS is political, but we cannot forget that it has its own paramilitary wing called the Izz al Din Qassam Brigades (AQB) that is directed, funded and equipped by HAMAS; which has been responsible for most of the violence directed towards Israel.

(KEY COMPONENTS)

First, the January 2006 Palestinian Parliamentary Elections, that brought HAMAS to the forefront, is now well over eight (8) years old. Whatever mandate the elections gave HAMAS eight years ago, has long since expired. The Palestinian Government has not been able to make a smooth Constitutional transition of government since the Constitution was written over a decade ago. Since the 1993 Oslo Accords, which created the Palestinian National Authority (PNA), the PNA acted as the interim administrative body established to administer the governmental institutions necessary for the West Bank. In 2012, the PNA essentially became the government for the State of Palestine when the UN decided to "accord to Palestine non-member observer State status in the United Nations, without prejudice to the acquired rights, privileges and role of the Palestine Liberation Organization in the United Nations as the representative of the Palestinian people," (A/RES/67/19 4 December 2012).

The trouble here is that HAMAS (a Palestinian Islamic organization) has rejected two key elements that have survived for three decades in Palestine:

• HAMAS rejects the PLO (secular) as the sole legitimate representative of the Palestinians,
  • Seventh Arab League Summit Conference Resolution on Palestine Rabat, Morocco 28 October 1974
  • Having heard the statement of the Palestine Liberation Organization, the representative of the Palestinian people, A/RES/3236 (XXIX) 22 November 1974
  • ANNEX II Political Communiqué and ANNEX III Palestinian Declaration of Independence
• HAMAS rejects the Oslo Accords.
  • Oslo I Declaration of Principles on Interim Self-Government Arrangements
  • Oslo II Israeli-Palestinian Interim Agreement on the West Bank and the Gaza Strip

HAMAS has a mantra ---- besides that of Jihad ---- in both the Covenant and its official Political Position:

• No recognition of the legitimacy of the Israeli occupation
• No recognition of "Israel"
  • Israel-PLO Recognition: Exchange of Letters between PM Rabin and Chairman Arafat - In connection with the Oslo Accords
• No legitimacy of Israel's presence in any part of Palestine from the river to the sea, and from north to south
  • A/RES/273 (III) 11 May 1949 UN Decides to admit Israel to membership in the United Nations

HAMAS is becoming a regional threat. In addition to HAMAS insisting it is Entitled To Attack Israel's Embassies, Interests, And Officials Worldwide – It also claims it has the right to attack The Interests Of Israel's Allies; as well as the US.

(COMMENT)

HAMAS is not just a political party. It is a regional danger; not just by itself --- but by the bad pennies it attracts. HAMAS and the Gaza Strip have developed an attraction for DAESH (Islamic State or Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant) that is attempting to establish itself on the Egyptian/Sinai Border region of the Gaza Strip and Israel.

It is rumored that a video, produced DAESH in the last week of June, is now making the rounds in the region. It is directed at the Palestinians (HAMAS and Fatah). The DAESH Jihadist accuses HAMAS of being soft in enforcing religious law in the Palestinian enclave it controls.

“We will uproot the state of the Jews [Israel] and you [Hamas] and Fatah [in the West Bank], and all of the secularists are nothing and you will be overrun by our creeping multitudes,” a masked Islamic State member said in the recorded message addressed to the “tyrants of Hamas.”

“The rule of Sharia [Islamic law] will be implemented in Gaza, in spite of you. We swear that what is happening in the Levant today, and in particular the Yarmouk camp [in Syria], will happen in Gaza,” he said, in reference to the besieged Palestinian refugee camp near Damascus.
SOURCE: Islamic State militant was booted from Hamas
SOURCE: Daesh threatens to overthrow Hamas in Gaza
SOURCE: ISIS Threatens To Topple Hamas In Gaza
​

HAMAS and Fatah may have more to worry about then its feud with Israel. If DAESH gets a firm foothold in the Gaza Strip from the Sinai --- it will probably cause Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt to get involved; inadvertently expanding the conflict.

YES, HAMAS is much much more than just an irritant politically.

Most Respectfully,
R

Hamas is not corrupt. It will defend its people. It will not give away the store.

You can't say any of that about Fatah.

Hamas is not corrupt.. - Just a legitimate dictatorship.
What with all the "Will" - how do you know Hamas "will" defend its people, when so far they didn't? only thing they strive for - and you the one supporting it should know out of everyone else - is WAR AGAINST ISRAEL'S JEWS - not even protecting "ITS" people including Hamas members.

We have seen Tinmore stick up for Hamas constantly so should we be surprised that even though Tinmore supposedly lives in the U.S. he was allowed to vote for Hamas?

Not so quick Hoss,considering it was the US and Israel that supported,armed and gave cash for the inception of Hamas in the first place...then demanded FREE AND FAIR,OPEN ELECTIONS of which Hamas was voted in,in Gaza.........your crocodile tears today seem somewhat Hypocritical don't you think ??? steve

Battle of Gaza 2007 - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
This was the last free and fair, opened elections.

And PF thinks that it is ME who is confused about Hamas usurping control of Gaza.. It was a purge.. After the betting was placed in the real "election".. You can't call it an election -- if the results END future elections.

Can you?

 

[flacaltenn]

Anyway -- are we done with flotillas? No one is making me feel guilty for not caring. The Seaport issue goes back to the Pali public choices, the civil war and the end of any functional Pali government responsible for inspecting cargo and living up to internationally accepted standards.

I like the Rose Parade flotillas on Thanksgiving Day better anyway..

 

[Phoenall]

Hamas is not corrupt.. - Just a legitimate dictatorship.
What with all the "Will" - how do you know Hamas "will" defend its people, when so far they didn't? only thing they strive for - and you the one supporting it should know out of everyone else - is WAR AGAINST ISRAEL'S JEWS - not even protecting "ITS" people including Hamas members.

If that was true, then why is it Israel breaking all the ceasefires?

Only in your fantasy world that puts Israel's retaliations to breaches of the cease fire as the first incident. Read the terms of the cease fire that hamas agreed and see what they have to stop doing.

 

[Phoenall]

Only in your fantasy world that really needs to be looked at by your social worker. It was left up to individual nations to define terrorism, and most use the same definition which is in the same link you have just used

In the meantime, the international community adopted a series of sectoral conventions that define and criminalize various types of terrorist activities. In addition, since 1994, the United Nations General Assembly has condemned terrorist acts using the following political description of terrorism: "Criminal acts intended or calculated to provoke a state of terror in the general public, a group of persons or particular persons for political purposes are in any circumstance unjustifiable, whatever the considerations of a political, philosophical, ideological, racial, ethnic, religious or any other nature that may be invoked to justify them."


Sounds about right for hamas as they are ideological and religous

 

[Phoenall]

Hamas was elected democratically because the PLO was considered corrupt.

We keep bumping into this "elected democratically" phrase here. Perhaps they were. But did they run on a platform to normalize relations in a way that would KEEP the PA agreements made with Israel to reopen the airport and seaport? Need an answer there. WHAT was their position??? It was clear that Fatah and the PA SUPPORTED the negotiations for sovereign control of those things.

And I called it coupe before. Wasn't exactly.. But it wasn't an election either. Because the sequence of events went something like "election" -- purge and civil war --- no more "elections" ever... Was that sequence of event WORTH IT to the Palestinian people? Is that the kind of "national representation" that they want and need? I see the "election" more as a betting pool on the winner of the eventual civil war and purge..

Why don't you post a thread on all the good things that Hamas promised in their "election" ? And what the Palestinians have given up by making that choice..

Hamas - 2006 Electoral Campaign Platform - Israeli-Palestinian Conflict - ProCon.org

And hamas broke their own rules within 24 hours of being elected so what was your point ?

 

[Phoenall]

Hamas was elected democratically because the PLO was considered corrupt.

And Hamas are angels walking around with halos on their heads, that's why they are designated as a terrorist organization by the U.S. And the West.

In Palestine, where Hamas was elected, Hamas is a constitutionally protected political party.

They are only terrorists to Israel and their name calling lackeys in the west.

There is no use for a "constitutionally protected party" if there can be no more working government or elections.
You can't argue that is a GOOD thing for the prospect of a Palestinian state. (i suppose you could -- but your sincerity about the plight of the Palestinians would come into question).. Hamas is the PRIMARY reason those ports are not functioning and working for the Palestinian people.

Gaza's airport and seaport were bombed by Israel years before Hamas was elected.

Abbas needs to step down and allow elections. He is on the tenth year of a four year term.

And if the arab muslims were not intent on using them for terrorist purposes after the start of the al aqsa intifada.

It is hamas that needs to step down as they are the ones holding up the elections by refusing to meet and set a date. They have usurped their power over the last 8 years of a 4 year term

 

[ForeverYoung436]

Hamas is not corrupt. It will defend its people. It will not give away the store.

You can't say any of that about Fatah.

Hamas is not corrupt.. - Just a legitimate dictatorship.
What with all the "Will" - how do you know Hamas "will" defend its people, when so far they didn't? only thing they strive for - and you the one supporting it should know out of everyone else - is WAR AGAINST ISRAEL'S JEWS - not even protecting "ITS" people including Hamas members.

We have seen Tinmore stick up for Hamas constantly so should we be surprised that even though Tinmore supposedly lives in the U.S. he was allowed to vote for Hamas?

Not so quick Hoss,considering it was the US and Israel that supported,armed and gave cash for the inception of Hamas in the first place...then demanded FREE AND FAIR,OPEN ELECTIONS of which Hamas was voted in,in Gaza.........your crocodile tears today seem somewhat Hypocritical don't you think ??? steve

When did the US "support, arm and give cash" to Hamas? Or Israel for that matter?
Hamas was voted into GAZA, split the functional govt of the Palestinians and left them (after a bloody political fight) with no more elections, no more chance to become a nation, and no chance at handling open international commerce on their own (which is what this thread is about).

Hamas is the principal reason why there are no open Seaports or Airports in Gaza. That's why there's no propaganda value in these "humanitarian flotillas".. Did you READ the Hamas "political platform" that PF posted? Think THAT represents the best chance for the Palestinians to become an independent nation or have a decent standard of living? Where are THOSE things in the values that Hamas represents.??

All this whining about being isolated barricaded, and confined are because there is NO political organization of the Palestinians after Hamas moved in..

There is a lot of confusion about Hamas and Gaza. Israel did not create Hamas. Israel did, however, allow Hamas to build itself into a sizable charity organization. I hear that Israel allowed Hamas, a religious organization, to be a counter to Fatah/PLO who nationalistic. To Israel's dismay, Hamas formed a military wing in 1988.

Hamas was not elected "in Gaza." The elections were for the PA that covered the West Bank and Gaza. Hamas won the majority of seats in the PLC (parliament) in 2006 that gave them the right to form a government. This government was approved by the PLC as required by their constitution and sworn in by Abbas. This was only a few months after Israel's disengagement from Gaza.

Of course Israel did not like this government. Another government was formed in 2007 but this post is getting long. I can fill you in on that one if you like.

Go ahead, fill us in. So Hamas won the election in 2006, and a gov't was formed in 2007. continue...

 

[Billo_Really]

Streetlights? Well I guess that's the same value system that chose Hamas over commerce. IDF was THERE because of Hamas.. And shooting streetlights is a smart way to fight a dense urban conflict. As opposed to placing military command and forces in schools and hospitals..

So --- you believe the Palestinians are better off with no more elections, no sovereign controlled commerce or ports under Hamas? How far towards nationhood status do you believe Hamas will take them?

It's obvious you're so morally vapid that you will make up any excuse for Israeli actions. There is no line they can cross, no action so horrific, that you won't make up some bullshit excuse over.

Street improvements is not terrorism. Shooting out the lamps at the top, is just mean. So is defending pieces of IDF shit, like you do on a constant basis. You're argument is disgusting to all of humanity.

 

[Billo_Really]

What does Israel have to do with Hamas corruption or Tinmore's assessments? Read the previous posts...

You said they're carrying a war against Israel. If they were, why is Israel the one breaking the ceasefires?

There's something wrong with that picture.

 

[Billo_Really]

First of all I'm against Socialism, next let me inform you it's all made by Israel including the electricity provided to Gaza, my pocket, does this count an international aid or perhaps Israel's property? (In case you dont get it - Hamas didn't bend a finger for that)

Now you just happened to say something very interesting, technically it's "out of" but I assume you meant "by" ---
"people who have no legal right to be in the area"
Why does Israelis have no right to be in this area?

Gaza isn't Israel.

You have no right doing whatever you ******* please, on someone else's property.

 

[Billo_Really]

Daniyel is Israeli, not American, so I don't think he can vote for you. Maybe you can get Trump to pick you as his running mate.

I was a Republican for 20 years; then I grew up.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Daniyel is Israeli, not American, so I don't think he can vote for you. Maybe you can get Trump to pick you as his running mate.

I was a Republican for 20 years; then I grew up.

I was a life long Republican too.

Bush cured me of that.

 

[flacaltenn]

Streetlights? Well I guess that's the same value system that chose Hamas over commerce. IDF was THERE because of Hamas.. And shooting streetlights is a smart way to fight a dense urban conflict. As opposed to placing military command and forces in schools and hospitals..

So --- you believe the Palestinians are better off with no more elections, no sovereign controlled commerce or ports under Hamas? How far towards nationhood status do you believe Hamas will take them?

It's obvious you're so morally vapid that you will make up any excuse for Israeli actions. There is no line they can cross, no action so horrific, that you won't make up some bullshit excuse over.

Street improvements is not terrorism. Shooting out the lamps at the top, is just mean. So is defending pieces of IDF shit, like you do on a constant basis. You're argument is disgusting to all of humanity.

While you are carrying on about streetlamps, the Palestinians have no organized govt, no international organized diplomacy, no chance at Statehood. Because the thug party that ENDED all that has an Assault Rifle on their official seal !!!!! Wouldn't look good on formal UN Correspondence would it now????

Unlike you --- I actually CARE that the Palestinians are politically fractured and going nowhere. And I really really can't blame Israel, Zionists or the Pope for that. What I'd like to know is where THEIR values and aspirations are. Is it in bloody endless Intifada --- or getting on with life and HAVING a Seaport, Airport and a seat at the UN. With REAL diplomats that get along with at least SOME of their neighbors.

That's my argument. And it's a shitload more humane than yours..

 

[aris2chat]

Streetlights? Well I guess that's the same value system that chose Hamas over commerce. IDF was THERE because of Hamas.. And shooting streetlights is a smart way to fight a dense urban conflict. As opposed to placing military command and forces in schools and hospitals..

So --- you believe the Palestinians are better off with no more elections, no sovereign controlled commerce or ports under Hamas? How far towards nationhood status do you believe Hamas will take them?

It's obvious you're so morally vapid that you will make up any excuse for Israeli actions. There is no line they can cross, no action so horrific, that you won't make up some bullshit excuse over.

Street improvements is not terrorism. Shooting out the lamps at the top, is just mean. So is defending pieces of IDF shit, like you do on a constant basis. You're argument is disgusting to all of humanity.

While you are carrying on about streetlamps, the Palestinians have no organized govt, no international organized diplomacy, no chance at Statehood. Because the thug party that ENDED all that has an Assault Rifle on their official seal !!!!! Wouldn't look good on formal UN Correspondence would it now????

Unlike you --- I actually CARE that the Palestinians are politically fractured and going nowhere. And I really really can't blame Israel, Zionists or the Pope for that. What I'd like to know is where THEIR values and aspirations are. Is it in bloody endless Intifada --- or getting on with life and HAVING a Seaport, Airport and a seat at the UN. With REAL diplomats that get along with at least SOME of their neighbors.

That's my argument. And it's a shitload more humane than yours..

Israel did not fail to maintain the sewage system, they left and gave control to the palestinians.
Israel did not fail to pay for fuel to keep the electric generators on. That was a dispute between hamas and the PA.
Israel did not close the crossing to egypt or dig illegal tunnels into the sinai. Hamas did.
Tons of supplies get delivered to gaza by Israel but hamas does not distribute items till after expiration date.
Building supplies are taken by hamas for tunnels instead of repair of buildings, many stolen from UN and NGOs.

Palestinians need to face the fact that their own have more to do with their situation and misery than Israel does. They need to fix their own problems instead of blaming Israel for everything.

 

[flacaltenn]

Streetlights? Well I guess that's the same value system that chose Hamas over commerce. IDF was THERE because of Hamas.. And shooting streetlights is a smart way to fight a dense urban conflict. As opposed to placing military command and forces in schools and hospitals..

So --- you believe the Palestinians are better off with no more elections, no sovereign controlled commerce or ports under Hamas? How far towards nationhood status do you believe Hamas will take them?

It's obvious you're so morally vapid that you will make up any excuse for Israeli actions. There is no line they can cross, no action so horrific, that you won't make up some bullshit excuse over.

Street improvements is not terrorism. Shooting out the lamps at the top, is just mean. So is defending pieces of IDF shit, like you do on a constant basis. You're argument is disgusting to all of humanity.

While you are carrying on about streetlamps, the Palestinians have no organized govt, no international organized diplomacy, no chance at Statehood. Because the thug party that ENDED all that has an Assault Rifle on their official seal !!!!! Wouldn't look good on formal UN Correspondence would it now????

Unlike you --- I actually CARE that the Palestinians are politically fractured and going nowhere. And I really really can't blame Israel, Zionists or the Pope for that. What I'd like to know is where THEIR values and aspirations are. Is it in bloody endless Intifada --- or getting on with life and HAVING a Seaport, Airport and a seat at the UN. With REAL diplomats that get along with at least SOME of their neighbors.

That's my argument. And it's a shitload more humane than yours..

Israel did not fail to maintain the sewage system, they left and gave control to the palestinians.
Israel did not fail to pay for fuel to keep the electric generators on. That was a dispute between hamas and the PA.
Israel did not close the crossing to egypt or dig illegal tunnels into the sinai. Hamas did.
Tons of supplies get delivered to gaza by Israel but hamas does not distribute items till after expiration date.
Building supplies are taken by hamas for tunnels instead of repair of buildings, many stolen from UN and NGOs.

Palestinians need to face the fact that their own have more to do with their situation and misery than Israel does. They need to fix their own problems instead of blaming Israel for everything.

I think AT PRESENT -- that is the situation. So there are 2 possibilities..

1 -- Hamas has such complete and tyrannical hold on Gaza that folks have no power to change or resist.
2 -- They are STILL committed to the Intifada ways that they voted for about 10 years ago and don't regret that decision and don't value all that infrastructure, improvements in economics and education or advancing towards Statehood.

During the last Hamas rocket hissy fits -- I saw some polling of "palestinians" that indicted they were somewhat evenly divided on the tactic.. Don't know (or dont remember) whether this was just Gazans or Palis as a whole were polled. I think the best thing to happen might be to find out what Palestinians really think and want rather than sit here and argue about history, the crappy status quo, and who to blame..Because from the actions and recent history -- it appears they don't give a damn about anything related to running a respectable nation..

Hope that is not true..

 

[Daniyel]

What does Israel have to do with Hamas corruption or Tinmore's assessments? Read the previous posts...

You said they're carrying a war against Israel. If they were, why is Israel the one breaking the ceasefires?

There's something wrong with that picture.

You missed the part where you suppose to relate to actual facts .
1.Israel didn't break any ceasefire,we went through this several times in the past.
2.Theoretically speaking - if Israel DID break ALL ceasefires in the past, how does it conjugate with Hamas's aim to launch indiscriminate war against all Israel's Jews? - there is no question of ceasefire when your enemy intending to eradicate you, and need a small break to get stronger.
3.Hamas is a corrupted terrorist organization (yes, a terrorist organization can also become corrupted) - this is the subject of the debate.
4.Hamas is not intending to protect the Gazans, not even in the near future IMHO, Tinmore claimed differently - even different from Hamas themselves.