The GREATEST war crime

[editec]

I agree with Gunny. As he speaks to the intangibles which the quotes in the opening post does not. The Japanese people would have fought to the last man,

I think not.. NOT if the Emperor went along with the surrender...which, if you'd taken the time to read my post above, you would knew he would have.

had we been put in the position of taking the nation with ground forces.

Which, if you'd taken the time to read my post above, you would know we would NOT have.

As much as I hate the use of force,

Do you? Apparently you hate to read nearly as much.

I am comfortable that we did what we needed to do for the best interest of our troops and that is where our obligation lays.

Are you comfortable that thousands of Marines died in those final islands while Japan was already SUING for peace?

Apparently you are. Speaking as an ex NAV corpsman, I am not.

Anyone who would wish to proclaim those two bombing missions war crimes only wishes to promote anti American propaganda,

Actually upon that issue I am inclined to agree.

Mistakes the appear to have been, but war crimes? definitely not

by choosing to ignore many facts and circumstances.

You don't seem to mind completely ignoring the facts when they don't serve your American hardon POV.

When I read things like this I often wonder if the writers really understand what it means to take another's life and what it means to defend your own life day after day.

If irony could only kill, eh?

Oh wait! ...it can.

 

[Maple]

Did you ever hear of Hitler or Stalin? Give me a break, that war would still be going on had we not dropped the bomb, over time it would have killed many thousands more people. The Japanese were not about to surrender, just like these terrorists won't.

 

[Yukon]

The slaughter of innocent Japanese civilians cannot be justified in any way, shape, or form. It was a crime against humanity that went unpunished but God will have His dues.

 

[Xenophon]

That argument is speculative, of course, but it is a drop dead certainty that the war was winding down and Japan knew it.

It is ALSO a certainty that with or without those bombs, Japan's political situation, it's WAR PARTY had lost all credibility, and was on its way out.

I'm sorry, but this is wrong.

There was no 'war party' in Imperial Japan, the Army had taken control of the government and would not release it.

Only the emperor could break their grip on the nation, and he refused to act because tradition forbid it, outside of 'advising' that Japan surrender.

It was the Hiroshima bomb that finally broke Hirohito's slavish devotion to tradition.

Even after he made the surrender recording and a SECOND A bomb drop, the Army again mutined and tried to destroy the recording and take Hirohito prisoner 'for his own good as he was surrounded by defeatists.'

That plot nealy suceeded.

As for that peace deal with russia you are quoting, have you ever read the details?

Japan was NOt to be occupied, it would try it's own war criminals under Japanese law, and the emperor and Imperial system was to remain intact.

There was not a snowball's chance in hell of the allies accepting Japanese terms.

BTW, Ike's comments were made in the 1950s long after the war while he was president, he was NOT informed about the manhatten project until it was actually used.

 

[Gunny]

I don't really wonder any more about the second bomb than I do the first. I'd be interested in why you do.

And also, I've read that some historians believe that not only would the alternative have cost thousands of American soldier's lives, but could have actually resulted in even more Japanese deaths than the bomb (assuming invasion was the alternative). An interesting topic for discussion for sure, but purely subjective and speculative. As for the OP's assertion that it was a war crime, total bullshit.

The projected loss in US lives alone to invade mainland Japan was estimated at a million.

Even if Eisenhower made the statement dickweed attributed to him, it's just proof of his ignorance in regard to the Japanese people. They would have died to the man protecting Hirohito.

The second bomb was dropped because Japan did not respond to a demand for surrender after the first one. They responded after the second one or there very well could have been more.

No there could not have been more because there were no more bombs to drop.

No Ike was not a dickweed because he understood, as apparently you don't the sequence of events surround the Jananese surrender

Details matter, Gunny....especially in matters of war and peace.

This debate has nothing to do with peaceniks or socialists or any of the other ignorant right wing blather you so often support, dude. so don't label any of us who are aguring about this issue as being in any way shape or form SOFT of the enemy.

Consider that...



..one hell of a lot of American Marines died in the Pacific who might not have had to, with or without those bombs.

That argument is speculative, of course, but it is a drop dead certainty that the war was winding down and Japan knew it.

It is ALSO a certainty that with or without those bombs, Japan's political situation, it's WAR PARTY had lost all credibility, and was on its way out.

FYI Here's a thumbnail of the events leading to up the formal surrender.


January 1945 - MacArthur forwarded to the President a Japanese offer to
surrender

5 April 1945 - Japan appointed Prime Minister Suzuki Kantaro who was
known to be a peace advocate. (meaning end of the influence of the war to the death generals)

8 May 1945 - Japan tried to surrender through the Soviet Union.

June 1945 - Both the US Army and Navy recommended to Truman that he
clarify the US demands in regard to the Emperor. 11 July 1945 - Japan offered to surrender unconditionally, with one
exception - they wished to retain their monarchy.

July 11: Japan writes "make clear to Russia... We have no intention of annexing or
taking possession of the areas which we have been occupying as a result
of the war; we hope to terminate the war".

July 12: The Emeror writes "it is His Majesty's heart's desire to see the swift termination of the war".

July 13: "I sent Ando, Director of the Bureau of Political Affairs to
communicate to the [Soviet] Ambassador that His Majesty desired to
dispatch Prince Konoye as special envoy, carrying with him the personal
letter of His Majesty stating the Imperial wish to end the war" (for
above items, see: U.S. Dept. of State, Potsdam 1, pg. 873-879).

July 18: "Negotiations... necessary... for soliciting Russia's good
offices in concluding the war and also in improving the basis for
negotiations with England and America." (Magic-Diplomatic Summary,
7/18/45, Records of the National Security Agency, Magic Files, RG 457,
Box 18, National Archives).

July 22: "Special Envoy Konoye's mission will be in obedience to the
Imperial Will. He will request assistance in bringing about an end to
the war through the good offices of the Soviet Government." The July
21st communication from Togo also noted that a conference between the
Emperor's emissary, Prince Konoye, and the Soviet Union, was sought, in
preparation for contacting the U.S. and Great Britain (Magic-Diplomatic
Summary, 7/22/45, Records of the National Security Agency, Magic Files,
RG 457, Box 18, National Archives).

July 26: Japan's Ambassador to Moscow, Sato, to the Soviet Acting
Commissar for Foreign Affairs, Lozovsky: "The aim of the Japanese
Government with regard to Prince Konoye's mission is to enlist the good
offices of the Soviet Government in order to end the war."
(Magic-Diplomatic Summary, 7/26/45, Records of the National Security
Agency, Magic Files, RG 457, Box 18, National Archives).

1945 Truman used atomic bombs on two Japanese cities, Hiroshima on
August 6 and Nagasaki on August 9.


exerpted from source

One, I said "may very well have" since I don't know that there was or there wasn't another bomb.

I disagree with you on the topic, and your "details." You're talking around my statements.

The projected loss IF we were to invade mainland Japan was approximately 1M US troops. There's no caveat to that. That's a projected loss of manpower given a situation.

At the time the bombs were dropped, Japan had been warned, and unconditional surrender demanded. Japan did not. They remained in a state of war. Given THAT scenario, your options are invade mainland Japan or use an atomic weapon.

The learned after the fact political wranglings are irrelevant. Japan trying to backdoor the US via Moscow is also irrelevant. Moscow had very little to do with the war in the Pacific, and even that was done so begrudgingly.

The choice was made, and a military leader I think it was the correct choice.

 

[Gunny]

I agree with Gunny. As he speaks to the intangibles which the quotes in the opening post does not. The Japanese people would have fought to the last man,

I think not.. NOT if the Emperor went along with the surrender...which, if you'd taken the time to read my post above, you would knew he would have.

had we been put in the position of taking the nation with ground forces.

Which, if you'd taken the time to read my post above, you would know we would NOT have.






Do you? Apparently you hate to read nearly as much.




Are you comfortable that thousands of Marines died in those final islands while Japan was already SUING for peace?

Apparently you are. Speaking as an ex NAV corpsman, I am not.




Actually upon that issue I am inclined to agree.

Mistakes the appear to have been, but war crimes? definitely not

by choosing to ignore many facts and circumstances.

You don't seem to mind completely ignoring the facts when they don't serve your American hardon POV.

When I read things like this I often wonder if the writers really understand what it means to take another's life and what it means to defend your own life day after day.

If irony could only kill, eh?

Oh wait! ...it can.

You're wrong on this one. Obviously Japan was not offering unconditional surrender which is what was demanded. Tough. We used to fight to win.

 

[Yukon]

Unfortunately Mr Gunny is biased and narrow minded in his thought process as are most Americans. American's will never admit that they made a mistake in fact Americans wont even admit that might have made a mistake.

The average American believes:
* They won the Vietnam War
* The 9/11 terrorists entered the USA through Canada
* Their country is a socialist haven as a result of the recent sovietization of the economy
* Universal Medicare is "evil"
* Don Ameche invented the telephone
* John Wayne won the Battle of Britain
* Al Gore invented the internet
* Richard Nixon wasn't a crook

I mean come on folks. How can a person debate rationally with people like this?

So it isnt at all surprising that Mr Gunny believes what he does about the WWII war crimes against the people of Japan.

 

[Gurdari]

Notice how no American Democwat ever stands up and says it was a horrible crime the Japanese committed that Sunday Morning on Dec. 7th 1941 and sneak attacked the USA?? Notice that?? Wonder why?

Well, pearl harbor was a military target, no? As opposed to the Japanese bombing Seattle... so, you can think that ANY attack is a horrible crime, but if you distinguish between military and civillian targets then the Japanese attack would be different than the A-bombings I think.

 

[Gurdari]

You don't want the US bombing yer azz, don't sneak up on us and bomb the fleet. Learn from history and you'll be okay! Tater!

Okay like Iraq?

 

[HUGGY]

Notice how no American Democwat ever stands up and says it was a horrible crime the Japanese committed that Sunday Morning on Dec. 7th 1941 and sneak attacked the USA?? Notice that?? Wonder why?














THE BLAME AMERICA FIRST CLUB IS ALWAYS IN SESSION

Because Democrats are all secretly Tokyo Rose-loving, Hirohito-worshipping Nips, right? How dare anybody mention something even remotely negative about America's past or present actions?

wouldn't be so bad if once in awhile a democwat could intersperse the conversation with something positive about their country.. but that's entirely too much to ask innit?? God Bless America? NO NO nO God Damn America.. that's the ticket!

Your mindless america right or wrong is no less ignorant than the "good germans". If you love america you do the right thing. THAT is what makes us the better country. We stand for the higher ideal and admit when we fail to.

 

[MalibuMan]

Greatest War Crime? Easy.

Not letting Patton kick the crap out of the Russians when he had the chance to.

 

[Yukon]

MalibuMonkey,

You watch too many Hollywood movies my son. Patton was as crazy as a bed-bug, in fact he was fired for his crazy antics.

 

[Quatermass]

I have in previous posts [ Is Terrorism the central plank of US led Invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq ? ] remarked on the Terroristic nature of the American Nation, much to the dismay of reactionary chauvinistic patriots, various indoctrinated apologists and ever present representatives of those great swathes of right wing opinion which form the bulwark of unquestioning support for whatever belligerent action its political leadership decides to embark upon.

From All of the responses expressed here, with the exception of Kevin Kennedy and Gurdari, to this question raised by Yukon, it becomes both clearly and sadly evident, just how deeply the philosophy of America's corrupt Imperialist ruling class has affected and permeated into the many layers of its proletarian masses.

Terrorism is quite acceptable it seems, as long as the American flag is raised high enough and waved vigorously enough. As long as the manic tones of the star spangled banner are played loud enough and frequently enough, to blot out reason and human empathy and replace them with that false sense of national unity which comes with global conflict, and furnish some half witted excuse, that can be voiced triumphantly by latter generations on their internet message boards.

Unless one learns from History, its mistakes are bound to be repeated. The attitudes of the most vocal mob on this message board are salient examples of a people that only see the arse of History, and are capable of learning nothing except that sugar-laced propaganda they are spoon-feed from on high.

The dropping of two Atomic Bombs by Cowardly U.S. Air-force bombers on old men and helpless women and children in civilian areas of Japan are amongst the most despicable and rotten endeavours ever perpetrated by homo sapiens since the beginning of civilisation.

All who defend such acts are inhuman to the core. The fact so many Americans do defend such acts of Terrorism speaks volumes, on that decaying culture.

Such a carnage could never be justified by decent Human beings.

And here stands 'Yukon'. Who, a vile racialist though he may be, is ethically head and shoulders above so many others here on this question. 'Others' that without a second thought defend the right of their nation to boil pregnant women and little boys and crippled people and innocent babies in the molten radiance of atomic explosions.

That he should come to this highly moral conclusion in the face of such hostile patriotic reaction is testament indeed to how low the American Nation has sunk, in all that it is, all that it represents and in all that it undertakes.

 

[submarinepainter]

We dropped them and won , the OP is Full of it, must watch to much Jon Stewart

 

[editec]

That argument is speculative, of course, but it is a drop dead certainty that the war was winding down and Japan knew it.

It is ALSO a certainty that with or without those bombs, Japan's political situation, it's WAR PARTY had lost all credibility, and was on its way out.

I'm sorry, but this is wrong.

I appreciate your polite approach but you are incorrect.

There was no 'war party' in Imperial Japan, the Army had taken control of the government and would not release it.

My shortcut for the war party. Even within the military establishment there were hawks and doves...hence my made up description of those hawks.

Only the emperor could break their grip on the nation, and he refused to act because tradition forbid it, outside of 'advising' that Japan surrender

Wong wrong wrong. You're guessing, and I know it.

It was the Hiroshima bomb that finally broke Hirohito's slavish devotion to tradition.

You either didn't read what I wrote above or are choosing to ignore it hoping perhaps if you write incorrect facts well enough, that will wow, somebody.

It's doesn't wow me. You are making shit up because that is your impression of WWII Japan. You are dead wrong.

Even after he made the surrender recording and a SECOND A bomb drop, the Army again mutined and tried to destroy the recording and take Hirohito prisoner 'for his own good as he was surrounded by defeatists.'

That plot nealy suceeded.

Of course it did...it went against their Emperor.

As for that peace deal with russia you are quoting, have you ever read the details?

Japan was NOt to be occupied, it would try it's own war criminals under Japanese law, and the emperor and Imperial system was to remain intact.

That was early in the negotiations.

There was not a snowball's chance in hell of the allies accepting Japanese terms.

There was ONE issue remaining to be decided....that snowball was mightly small by the time the first bomb was dropped.

BTW, Ike's comments were made in the 1950s long after the war while he was president, he was NOT informed about the manhatten project until it was actually used.

Yes, his assessment was therefore based on the facts after the fact.

Hence they were made with that hidsight which is usually thought 20/20

Now neither bomb might have been necessary.

But certainly given the feriosity of the Japanese, I can definitely understand the first bomb.

The second, as I said in my original post, seems to me to be dropped in haste that , for the life of my I cannot find a reason for.

Japan was defeated, it's emperor knew it, it's military knew it, it's people knew it.

Why the second bomb?

We'll never really know for sure, but Turman's character might have played a part. The possibility of Russian and Japan coming to separate peace might have played a role in the decision (although I doubt Stalin would have been so foolish, it might still have been on the minds of Truman).

But to make the statement that Japan was not defeated, given the overhwleming evidence of their attempts to sue for peace?

That's preposterous.

 

[editec]

From All of the responses expressed here, with the exception of Kevin Kennedy and Gurdari, to this question raised by Yukon, it becomes both clearly and sadly evident, just how deeply the philosophy of America's corrupt Imperialist ruling class has affected and permeated into the many layers of its proletarian masses.

Oh bite me, you pompous ass.

In fact bite we Americans all, regardless of where we stand in this debate.


We're debating a finer point in something you clearly don't know jackshit about and here you come to lecture us on morality?

Peddle your anti-American blather someplace else.

America crushed a government gone mad when the crushed the Japanese. We did all of Asia a tremendous favor.

Japanese war crimes and crimes against humanity were legion and they were done from the top brass right down to the losest Japanese soldier. Ask the Korean what they think of the Japanese of WWII.

The Jpanaese is god damned lucky that cooler head prevailed because for for what they did to the Chinese people and to the prisoners they took, we could have vaporized the entire Island and nobody in the world would have said boo in their defense at the time of the war.

But we didn't BECAUSE we are Americans and we are debating the dropping of the bombs precisely BECAUSE we care about these finer points in MORALITY.

So just stuff your opinion of the state of american morality where the sun don't shine, kid, cuase nobody is impressed with your pseudo-moral tripe.

 

[mightypeon]

I am of the optinion that the Nukes where a powerplay to intimidiate Russia and to prevent the Japanese from surrendering the the USSR.
If they wanted to force a military surrender by "shock and awing" the Japanese, they could have used the nukes in concert with the Soviet invasion of Manchuria (which the US knew was coming), and not some days prior to it.
I think the second nuke was more about showing the USSR that the US had more than one nuke in store.

War crime? War crimes are in the eyes of the victors.

 

[Xenophon]

I appreciate your polite approach but you are incorrect.

On this topic, not a chance ed.

My shortcut for the war party. Even within the military establishment there were hawks and doves...hence my made up description of those hawks.

Ok, I'll give you a mulligan on it.

Wong wrong wrong. You're guessing, and I know it.

Not even close, this is long established, hirohito himself wrote it.

You either didn't read what I wrote above or are choosing to ignore it hoping perhaps if you write incorrect facts well enough, that will wow, somebody.

It's doesn't wow me. You are making shit up because that is your impression of WWII Japan. You are dead wrong.

I'm affraid you are the one making it up.

Hirohito is the one who revealed that tidbit.

You could of course claim he's lying about himself, but the fact that it's recorded in dozens of books won't change it much.

That was early in the negotiations.

[their were no negociations.

Molotov ordered that the Japanese be given no answer, and Stalin told the allies that Japan was trying for a peace deal with pre conditions.

There was ONE issue remaining to be decided....that snowball was mightly small by the time the first bomb was dropped.

There was no chance the allies would accept Japan's conditions.

Because of FDR's Casablanca comments the US was locked into uncondtinional surrender.

Yes, his assessment was therefore based on the facts after the fact.

Hence they were made with that hidsight which is usually thought 20/20

Now neither bomb might have been necessary.

They were made while he was running for reelection, at a time the US was worried about nuclear war. His comments were not an accurate assesment of what actually happened.

Have you noticed nobody canvases MacArthur about this, the man who was there and outranked Ike?

The answer to that is he favored their usage to spare the lies of his men.

But certainly given the feriosity of the Japanese, I can definitely understand the first bomb.

The second, as I said in my original post, seems to me to be dropped in haste that , for the life of my I cannot find a reason for.

Japan was defeated, it's emperor knew it, it's military knew it, it's people knew it.

Why the second bomb?

We'll never really know for sure, but Turman's character might have played a part. The possibility of Russian and Japan coming to separate peace might have played a role in the decision (although I doubt Stalin would have been so foolish, it might still have been on the minds of Truman).

But to make the statement that Japan was not defeated, given the overhwleming evidence of their attempts to sue for peace?

That's preposterous.

They were defeated from a military standpoint in 1942, you could make the case that they were defeated before they started the war.

The point is from a JAPANESE viewpoint many of they were more then willing to see Japan wiped out rather then give in.

The second bomb was dropped because Japan made no answer at all to the first one, the idea being to bluff Japan into thinking that one a week was coming until they gave in.

Of course he know that the USA had no more such bombs, nor would it for sometime, but Japan didn't know this.

 

[Xenophon]

I am of the optinion that the Nukes where a powerplay to intimidiate Russia and to prevent the Japanese from surrendering the the USSR.
If they wanted to force a military surrender by "shock and awing" the Japanese, they could have used the nukes in concert with the Soviet invasion of Manchuria (which the US knew was coming), and not some days prior to it.
I think the second nuke was more about showing the USSR that the US had more than one nuke in store.

War crime? War crimes are in the eyes of the victors.

I'm sorry, this is rediculous.

It didn't matter if Japan surrendered to the USSR, the Russians had no way to occupy Japan and the USA made it clear if the USSR tried they would be prevented by force.

Atomic weapons were not made or used to intimidate the Soviets, who knew all about them from their quite exstensive infiltration of the US goernment.

Their purpose was to force the Japanese to accept reality.

 

[Yukon]

Quatermass,

Your's is without a doubt the most well thought out and eloquent response that I have read to any post made here at US Message Board. However, you did make one mistake and I quote: "...here stands 'Yukon'. Who, a vile racialist though he may be...".

Quartermass, I am not, repeat NOT, a racist. I simply speak what I believe to be the truth and I have learned these truths through many, many years of studying the Bible when I was a Priest. That being said I do thank you for the kind remarks. I will pray for you at Mass.

ex-Father Yukon

I have in previous posts [ Is Terrorism the central plank of US led Invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq ? ] remarked on the Terroristic nature of the American Nation, much to the dismay of reactionary chauvinistic patriots, various indoctrinated apologists and ever present representatives of those great swathes of right wing opinion which form the bulwark of unquestioning support for whatever belligerent action its political leadership decides to embark upon.

From All of the responses expressed here, with the exception of Kevin Kennedy and Gurdari, to this question raised by Yukon, it becomes both clearly and sadly evident, just how deeply the philosophy of America's corrupt Imperialist ruling class has affected and permeated into the many layers of its proletarian masses.

Terrorism is quite acceptable it seems, as long as the American flag is raised high enough and waved vigorously enough. As long as the manic tones of the star spangled banner are played loud enough and frequently enough, to blot out reason and human empathy and replace them with that false sense of national unity which comes with global conflict, and furnish some half witted excuse, that can be voiced triumphantly by latter generations on their internet message boards.

Unless one learns from History, its mistakes are bound to be repeated. The attitudes of the most vocal mob on this message board are salient examples of a people that only see the arse of History, and are capable of learning nothing except that sugar-laced propaganda they are spoon-feed from on high.

The dropping of two Atomic Bombs by Cowardly U.S. Air-force bombers on old men and helpless women and children in civilian areas of Japan are amongst the most despicable and rotten endeavours ever perpetrated by homo sapiens since the beginning of civilisation.

All who defend such acts are inhuman to the core. The fact so many Americans do defend such acts of Terrorism speaks volumes, on that decaying culture.

Such a carnage could never be justified by decent Human beings.

And here stands 'Yukon'. Who, a vile racialist though he may be, is ethically head and shoulders above so many others here on this question. 'Others' that without a second thought defend the right of their nation to boil pregnant women and little boys and crippled people and innocent babies in the molten radiance of atomic explosions.

That he should come to this highly moral conclusion in the face of such hostile patriotic reaction is testament indeed to how low the American Nation has sunk, in all that it is, all that it represents and in all that it undertakes.