The God Vacuum: America and the barbarian hordes

[Gunny]

Interesting point. I dont think i ever thought of that aspect.

Regardless, i think it encompasses more than just lying against ones neighbors. i think it basically encompasses gossip and slander.

I pretty-much agree. My point is that matt was using the wrong rule to support his argument.

To take it a step further .... is Man's first duty to God, or to the Gestapo (Man)? Ever the literalist, matt chooses to take lying in an attempt to do wrong out of context and just call all lies the same. I think matt's definition is not in keeping with the intent of God's law.

But what's new?

 

[Gunny]

I would suggest you review the theory. Matter was created as the energy from the Big Bang cooled to the point that atomic nuclei could actually form without being torn apart in the next instant.

My theory is fine. No matter how you try and spin it, NOTHING can form from NOTHING. Nothing means no matter, no energy, no nuclei ...NOTHING.

From THAT, the "Big Bang" creates a universe, complete with life as we know it being completely by happenstance.

 

[Avatar4321]

It is anecdotal evidence describing the subjective experiences of individuals, which cannot be independently verified by an objective outside observer. In a court of law, it would be considered hearsay, and inadmissable.

If what you have found gives you meaning, comfort and solace in life that is well and good. But not all of us need religious experience to provide the meaning to our lives. Our morals are rooted in the consequences of our actions upon those around us here and now. Our reward for our moral behaviour comes in the form of the respect and trust of those around us. There is no need to wait for a reward in some mythical, metaphysical after-life.

That does not mean that my way is better than yours, or vice-versa. We are simply taking different paths towards the same goal...Moral life in a just society.

Just so you know, direct testimony from a witness is not hearsay.

 

[jillian]

Just so you know, direct testimony from a witness is not hearsay.

However, statements made by an unavailable declarant, not subject to cross-examination and merely repeated by the witness IS hearsay (subject to certain exceptions, of course) if it is used to prove the truth or falsity of the matter asserted. :cof:

 

[Abbey Normal]

Im not sure thats true. I think you can understand even if you only desire to believe. And if you have that desire to know for yourself, you can study it. you can look at it from thte writer/speakers perspective and it makes total sense. and if you live it you will see the fruits of it in your life.

Let's see. The desire to believe can be equated with an open heart. And an open heart towards the Lord is key to believing and understanding. I don't see a problem either way.

 

[1549]

Then you should easily be able to provide one example.

Have you ever heard of Darwin's Finches?

 

[Bullypulpit]

However, statements made by an unavailable declarant, not subject to cross-examination and merely repeated by the witness IS hearsay (subject to certain exceptions, of course) if it is used to prove the truth or falsity of the matter asserted. :cof:

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to jillian again.

 

[Bullypulpit]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Bullypulpit again.

I know you'd be shocked and amazed, but I can respect that. Not agree that you are on the correct path, will do what I can to inspire, but I respect it. For some reason, I figure the path I'm on, may do more to help than if I make jest of you. Go figure.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Kathianne again. Neither shocked nor amazed. My path is right for me, your path is right for you, Avatar's path is right for him. There is more than one path to the same goal.

 

[Eightball]

Not provable evidences....

So over 300 people see this man Jesus rise up into the clouds........and it's subjective evidence?

Thought two or more witnesses was good enough in a court of law? When it comes to Jesus........it ain't good enough.........right? That's just plain, "not wanting to accept or believe". It's also very scriptural........your denial, that is. "Professing to be wise, they became fools (V-22)----but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened(V-21)(..".(Romans Chapter 1).:read: You know what it means to have a darkened heart.......It means that God allows man to self impose upon his own soul a state of callousness to things, of God....and in fact allows man to spiral downward until his or her's life becomes so degraded that maybe, just maybe it will be a "wake-up" call to them that they must quit living this self-centered......"I'm the center of the universe." type of life....and open their eyes and accept the obvious. The the story so succinctly told by Jesus about the Prodigal son comes to mind.:read: The Prodigal son's life sank so low........but his father indeed could have restrained him from dropping into the mire of self-absorbed living.........yet his father lovingly waited, hoping that his son would come to his senses...........As is, God,.......in respect to wayward mankind.....

 

[Dr Grump]

So over 300 people see this man Jesus rise up into the clouds........and it's subjective evidence?

Do you have the names and addresses of these 300 people? Where is their written individual statements, signed and dated?

 

[jillian]

So over 300 people see this man Jesus rise up into the clouds........and it's subjective evidence?

Who said so? The 300 people alive to state what they "saw"? OR was it relayed by someone else who now wants you to take it as true?

And that's exactly what hearsay is and why it wouldn't be admissible in Court.

 

[Nienna]

Marine iguanas. But you'll find unique adaptive changes to the flora and fauna in any isolated ecosystem.

Organisms do not adapt to their environments. They SURVIVE their environment. Exactly the OPPOSITE effect needed to evolve a man from a microbe.

 

[theHawk]

Marine iguanas. But you'll find unique adaptive changes to the flora and fauna in any isolated ecosystem.

And we have evidence this was a result of mutation? We have witnesses to this mutation in this species before they had this ability and after?

 

[theHawk]

Have you ever heard of Darwin's Finches?

Yes, and he did not witness a genetic mutation. He simply observed that particular members of a species would survive in certain envornmental conditions based on traits already present in their genetic makeup. This is commonly referred to as "evolution" but it is not. Traits already buried in the genes of any species isn't the same thing as a genetic mutation that results in a completely brand new trait. What I am asking for is scientific evidence of a genetic mutation taking place in a species that results in a new trait that can be passed on to its offspring. Citing examples of existing buried or rare traits surfacing when the majority of a species dies off during an envornmental change is not what I am asking for. But the Darwinian Lemmings don't seem to comprehend what I am asking for.

 

[Eightball]

Do you have the names and addresses of these 300 people? Where is their written individual statements, signed and dated?

If I had them.....be honest.......would it really make a difference to you? Obviously Paul didn't list their Israeli addresses in the N.T..

Why would Paul face a martyr's death as all the other Apostles did for their belief in this gospel, except for John who died on the Island of Patmos? Surely they were all fools for believing what they saw, felt, and heard as Jesus Christ........witnessing the multiplying of the loaves of bread and the fish.......that inevitably fed thousands of people........

bottom line: I don't think you want it to be true.....and no convincing would help short of Jesus Himself standing in front of you, and that might not even do it.

Some people will hold onto themselves, and never let go and acknowledge a higher power than themselves......sadly, right to the grave........missing out so very much of life......and life afterwards to.

Jesus didn't promise 70 virgins......maybe that's the problem........He just promised and end to tears, and end to sickness, everlasting security, and a bonafide actually personal relationship with one's Creator........"No holds barred".

Most folks see it as......."What's in it for me.".... It's still that old sinful nature, that wants all things to orbit around themselves........it's the malady of control.......control of oneself........the control of one's loved ones......anything that seems of significant to one's identity as a human......control, control, control........God wants us to look outside ourselves, and see that we, though little specks in a mammoth drama of creation and life itself are still significant to Him. Why........well, we don't deserve the significants., yet this mystery called, "grace" or unmerited love..........moved our Creator to give His on beloved son in death(crucifixion) that we....humans might trully have life........and life everlasting.

It's simplistic, yet difficult for those that must have evidences only short of being "raptured" personally by God.

 

[José]

The problem here is not Grump's unwillingness to accept Christianity, Eightball.

The problem is you trying to convince us that a human being violated the most fundamental axiom (self-evident truth) of Biology:

Living organisms, once dead, do not resuscitate.

 

[Annie]

The problem here is not Grump's unwillingness to accept Christianity, Eightball.

The problem is you trying to convince us that a human being violated the most fundamental axiom of Biology:

Living organisms, once dead, do not resuscitate.

Unless also divine. Christ is and was and always will be.

 

[Eightball]

The problem here is not Grump's unwillingness to accept Christianity, Eightball.

The problem is you trying to convince us that a human being violated the most fundamental axiom of Biology:

Living organisms, once dead, do not resuscitate.

I presume from your reply, Jose'.......that all the witnesses of Christ after His alleged ressurrection were just deluded folks.........yet they numbered in the hundreds....

Hopeful thinking stimulated euphoria, which stimulated mass illusions that this guy(Jesus) really was alive from the dead.......or it's just big fairytale?

Seems if this Jesus never beat death......there wouldn't be Christianity existing today.....as the very foundation of or tenet of Christianity would be just dust in a 2000 year old grave.

Anyone care to put the Metamorphoses of a caterpillar into a moth or butterfly.......in terms of evolution or by 4.5 billion years of chance collisions of atoms, that formed complex molecules.......of organic nature.......That means carbon based........and somehow we got a caterpillar that some how cocoons, and it's existent body becomes enzyematically reduced to soup within the crysalist, and reforms into a totally different organism..........namely an insect.......with an exo-skeleton.......and is no longer a larvae or worm.........,and that all got worked out with all the rest of earth's diversified critters in 3.5 billion years or less?

A pretty good feat.......in 3.5 billion years.......which is statistically not long enough time when relying on the "crap-shoot" method of chance encounters of elements with others to form complex molecules that somehow will combine by "crap-shoot" in time to form even the most elemental types of life..........i.e viruses/bacterias.....

Actually it takes a pretty good stretch of faith to accept that complex "life" could evolve by mere, "chance" to what it is today in 3.5 billion years.......yet.......so many do have "faith" in that.....and there are no eye-witnesses to the entire process, from simple molecules to complex DNA strands, then genes, then Chromosoms, then cellular walls, Nucleus's, then symbiotic cellular relationships..on the most primitive of levels..i.e. sea sponges.......and then theres specialized cells.......liver, spleen, muscle, retinal, nerve, skin, bone, blood, ...etc..............

3.5 Billion years is but a nano-second in the scheme of playing the odds of random atomic and molecular collisions jump starting into life at a given point..........through myriads of collisions.......and hitting, even a starting point.

And what gives the power to or instructions to the replecation of DNA within the Chromosomal/gene structure of life itself?

Organic life defies physics as it defies the law of randomness which is being witnessed throughout the universe with all non-living materials.......

It takes power/energy to hold complex molecules together........where is that power being generated from?

Simplistically.......in collosians 3......it says that God holds all things together.........in other words....... God can and does defy natural law, when observing the realm of organic life versus non-living matter.........yet He has established the law of physics, and physical nature too all matter. Oxidation is the end point of all things metallic........Decay is the end product of life slipping away from life based structures.

Living creatures that mysteriously cease to live(death).......all of a sudden start to break down into their basic elements and simpler molecular compounds........as what has held this symbiotic relationship of specialized cells together as a viable living mass of organical molecules has ceased to influence this entity any longer. Back to dust.........back to joining the fray of randomness as the elemental law of this universe as we understand it.
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The simplest to most complex organic life defies...physics..........it goes against the very grain of simple physics.....as it contradicts the natural physical trend of all molecules both simple and complex to reduce themselves down to the most stable compounds or even elements.........They sustain their complexity by energy itself.......replecation defies randomness of elements.....
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This is just one little eye-dropper sized example of intelligent design or intervention.
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Do you know what the odds are that a terrestrial ball the size and mass of our earth would be precisely the right distance from a medium sized middle aged star(star), have a moon orbiting it of the precise mass and distance to effect tides that create a gamut of conditions encouraging intertidal life that sustains an immense food chain; A terrestrial ball(earth) precisely spaced from other planetary orbits.......also inhabiting an area of the Milky Way Galaxy that is less crowded and more apt to be non-affected by other heavenly bodies.......via gravitational effects......radiation........ collisions, etc.......so that it could incubate or sustain life of an organic, carbon based form of life.....with abundant elements found on it's upper crust, a protective Ozone coating in it's upper atmosphere.......giving a modality to an advanced, thinking species of life to fashion, build, sustain, pro-create, for itself........Man?

Nope! It's all chance..........we're just a the result of a cosmic crap shoot...

Why is it that so many scientists started out as atheists and agnostics.......but after studying both the macro and micro of their substantive life around them became believers in a higher intelligence, and creative genious? Were they persuaded by hopeful thinking, or evidences that demanded a verdict?

 

[Gunny]

Yes, and he did not witness a genetic mutation. He simply observed that particular members of a species would survive in certain envornmental conditions based on traits already present in their genetic makeup. This is commonly referred to as "evolution" but it is not. Traits already buried in the genes of any species isn't the same thing as a genetic mutation that results in a completely brand new trait. What I am asking for is scientific evidence of a genetic mutation taking place in a species that results in a new trait that can be passed on to its offspring. Citing examples of existing buried or rare traits surfacing when the majority of a species dies off during an envornmental change is not what I am asking for. But the Darwinian Lemmings don't seem to comprehend what I am asking for.

Good point. If failure to adapt to environmental change results in death, just how is it this "mutation" comes about? I know of no extinct species that has made a sudden comeback with the requisite mutation to survive environmental change.

 

[Dr Grump]

If I had them.....be honest.......would it really make a difference to you? Obviously Paul didn't list their Israeli addresses in the N.T.

Well, at least they could be cross-examined!

Why would Paul face a martyr's death as all the other Apostles did for their belief in this gospel.

Probably for the same reason a bunch of idiots blow themselves up every day in the middle east. Adherents to religion can be overzealous in their practice of their religion.

Surely they were all fools for believing what they saw, felt, and heard as Jesus Christ........witnessing the multiplying of the loaves of bread and the fish.......that inevitably fed thousands of people.

If indeed it happened...

Some people will hold onto themselves, and never let go and acknowledge a higher power than themselves......sadly, right to the grave........missing out so very much of life......and life afterwards to.

Then again some think neither. Some think themselves as just part of the universe at large, nothing more, nothing less and do not hold themselves into any type of higher or lower standard.

It's still that old sinful nature, that wants all things to orbit around themselves..

Unlike a god?

it's the malady of control.......control of oneself........the control of one's loved ones.

Unlike a god?

God wants us to look outside ourselves, and see that we, though little specks in a mammoth drama of creation and life itself are still significant to Him.

Why?

Why........well, we don't deserve the significants.

Ah, the copout answer. God gave us sentinent thought, so we think and question, but when ask the big ones "sorry, folks..we're not allowed to know those answers, and what's more you wouldn't understand".

I yet this mystery called, "grace" or unmerited love..........moved our Creator to give His on beloved son in death(crucifixion) that we....humans might trully have life........and life everlasting.

And he's doing all this...all this benevolence just because?

It's simplistic, yet difficult for those that must have evidences only short of being "raptured" personally by God.

I'd just prefer a simple answer. Why wrap everything in a riddle? Why all this "faith" and "just believe" bollocks? Why not just spit it out...