The Forgotten Part Of Normandy

[CrusaderFrank]

FDR had more contact and influence from Churchill than Stalin. About 10 to 20 times more. Also more input from the USA General and Joint Chiefs of Staff, etc.

Just stop!

 

[francoHFW]

Like the Allies, you need to get off the beaches to get your answer.
What wasn't foreseen was the effect of the bocage terrain;
...
Bocage (UK: /bəˈkɑːʒ/,[1] US: /ˈboʊkɑːʒ/ BOH-kahzh) is a terrain of mixed woodland and pasture characteristic of parts of Northern France, Southern England, Ireland, the Netherlands and Northern Germany, in regions where pastoral farming is the dominant land use.
...
In English, bocage refers to a terrain of mixed woodland and pasture, with fields and winding country lanes sunken between narrow low ridges and banks surmounted by tall thick hedgerows that break the wind but also limit visibility. It is the sort of landscape found in many parts of southern England, for example in Devon. However the term is more often found in technical than general usage in England. In France the term is in more general use, especially in Normandy, with a similar meaning. Bocage landscape in France is largely confined to Normandy, Brittany, and parts of the Loire valley.
...

Normandy​

In Normandy, the bocage acquired a particular significance in the Chouannerie during the French Revolution.[5]

The bocage was also significant during the Battle of Normandy in World War II, as it made progress against the German defenders difficult.[6] Plots of land were divided by ancient rows of dirt alongside irrigation ditches; thick vegetation on these dirt mounds could create walls up to sixteen feet high. A typical square mile on the battlefield might contain hundreds of irregular hedged enclosures.[7] In response, "Rhino tanks" fitted with bocage-cutting modifications were developed. American personnel usually referred to bocage as hedgerows. The German army also used sunken lanes to implement strong points and defenses to stop the American troops on the Cotentin Peninsula and around the town of Saint-Lô.[8]
...

Thanks I have lived there for weeks 3 times. The point is that German tanks would have made a difference, they made a difference at Caen.

 

[westwall]

So why were the British tanks that were supposed to take CAEN stopped in their tracks for a month on D-Day, Mr expert. I have toured D-Day beaches at three separate times in my life at least. You amateurs are baffled by all these details and don't reach the level of theory and the big picture. Anything the Italians are involved in does not count....lol

Because Monty was averse to losses thus incredibly timid. For someone who has supposedly toured the beaches three times you are remarkably ignorant.

I have spent more time on them than you. I count as my friends combatants from both sides, Uhlig was a close friend as was von der Heydte.

You know nothing.

 

[westwall]

It's not my theory....it is the considered and calculated statement by the top military general.

You can continue to believe what you wish.....I'll go with the facts as they seem most logical.

You misread Stalin, Roosevelt, and Eisenhower.

No, it is your theory that stalin manipulated FDR to attack Normandy.

I am telling you it doesn't matter because it was the absolute correct thing to do.

Anyone with even a slight grasp of tactics KNOWS that Italy would have been a bloodbath.

 

[Mushroom]

" By May 15, 1945, the Pentagon believed 25,000 American POWs "liberated" by the Red Army were still being held hostage to Soviet demands that all "Soviet citizens" be returned to Soviet control, "without exception" and by force if necessary, as agreed to at the Yalta Conference in February 1945.

What in the hell does that, or any of that latest pile of crap have to do with invading Italy and not France?

Especially as your idea would have put the UK and US forces BEHIND the Soviets, and also given them control of a lot of Central and Western Europe?

 

[Mushroom]

Thanks I have lived there for weeks 3 times.

Wow, such an expert that makes you!

Does living in a place like that simply make you a military expert through osmosis?

 

[CrusaderFrank]

The WAllies could have landed Trieste (Cz) -> Zagreb -> Vienna -> Prague -> Germany

Stalin lovers hate this idea....gee I wonder why?

 

[PoliticalChic]

Before Italy proved a stagnant and expense front to fight on. Causng him to change his opinion. Also, being promoted to higher command isn't always a proof of generalship tactically speaking. Could reflect being politically savvy instead.
Clear you know nothing about military tactics/operations/strategy or the logistics and transport needed for such.

I get it.....you understand the situation better than Eisenhower.

I was never a fan of Eisenhower as President.....when you run, you get my vote.

 

[PoliticalChic]

FDR only had the "opinion" Stalin fed him

....and he had no problem swallowing it.

 

[PoliticalChic]

FDR had more contact and influence from Churchill than Stalin. About 10 to 20 times more. Also more input from the USA General and Joint Chiefs of Staff, etc.

Pleeeeeezzzzze.


Harry Hopkins,- FDR's alter ego, co-president, or Rasputin, "...the closest and most influential adviser to President Franklin D. Roosevelt during World War II, was a Soviet agent." and “the most important of all Soviet wartime agents in the United States.”
The Treachery Of Harry Hopkins
The Treachery Of Harry Hopkins

It's very difficult to get feeling for Harry Hopkins, he manages to do well what really good spies do: remain unnoticed. But there is scholarship on Hopkins....and you can draw your own conclusions.

Life magazine ran a spread on Hopkins on September 22, 1941, calling his a one-man cabinet to Roosevelt. In fact, he lived at the White House, in the Lincoln Bedroom, from May 1940 to December 1943. LIFE

FDR welcomed spies in his administration.....he promoted them.

What Stalin wanted.....Normandy......was all FDR heard and agreed to.

 

[PoliticalChic]

And you misread Marshall and Churchill, etc.
Also Eisenhower whom changed opinions based upon intel and altered circumstances post early Nov. 1943.

Churchill repeatedly proposed an attack via already established Allied bases in Italy, and expanding operations from the Adriatic and Aegean Seas into south central Europe, Stalin wanted Eastern and Central Europe left open to millions of Red Army troops. "The D-Day invasion was forced on a reluctant Churchill by the Americans..... pressed instead for a strategy focused on the Mediterranean, pushing through the "soft underbelly" of southern Europe, over the Alps and through the Balkans. The Americans prevailed because they provided an increasingly larger share of the forces and funding.... Roosevelt dispatched Marshall and presidential envoy Harry Hopkins to London to sell the idea to the British." Churchill’s Southern Strategy - Air Force Magazine







In Tehran, Roosevelt sided with Stalin. Churchill was beside himself! It was at Tehran that Churchill realized that to help the countries of Eastern Europe, he had to get there before the Red Army.

Lord Moran "Churchill: Taken from the Diaries of Lord Moran," p. 155

 

[PoliticalChic]

No, it is your theory that stalin manipulated FDR to attack Normandy.

I am telling you it doesn't matter because it was the absolute correct thing to do.

Anyone with even a slight grasp of tactics KNOWS that Italy would have been a bloodbath.

I quoted Eisenhower and his considered opinion.



Churchill repeatedly proposed an attack via already established Allied bases in Italy, and expanding operations from the Adriatic and Aegean Seas into south central Europe, Stalin wanted Eastern and Central Europe left open to millions of Red Army troops. "The D-Day invasion was forced on a reluctant Churchill by the Americans..... pressed instead for a strategy focused on the Mediterranean, pushing through the "soft underbelly" of southern Europe, over the Alps and through the Balkans. The Americans prevailed because they provided an increasingly larger share of the forces and funding.... Roosevelt dispatched Marshall and presidential envoy Harry Hopkins to London to sell the idea to the British." Churchill’s Southern Strategy - Air Force Magazine







In Tehran, Roosevelt sided with Stalin. Churchill was beside himself! It was at Tehran that Churchill realized that to help the countries of Eastern Europe, he had to get there before the Red Army.

Lord Moran "Churchill: Taken from the Diaries of Lord Moran," p. 155

 

[PoliticalChic]

What in the hell does that, or any of that latest pile of crap have to do with invading Italy and not France?

Especially as your idea would have put the UK and US forces BEHIND the Soviets, and also given them control of a lot of Central and Western Europe?

This is a lot of fun....let's keep the language civil, even as you have lost the argument.


It shows the power Stalin has over the alleged American President.

Thousands of American soldiers...a 'gift' to Stalin.


What would you have done.

 

[francoHFW]

Wow, such an expert that makes you!

Does living in a place like that simply make you a military expert through osmosis?

Do you have an argument against anything I have said, or are you just another ignorant right wing GOP base ignoramus who has nothing but stupid talking points and personal insults.... I have a masters in history and I'm crazy about French history and I have gone through every museum and bunker in Normandy basically. Travel is broadening and ends ignorant stupidity like yours....

 

[Mushroom]

I get it.....you understand the situation better than Eisenhower.

Ike in 1942, or Ike in 1944?

 

[Mushroom]

This is a lot of fun....let's keep the language civil, even as you have lost the argument.

Oh, I was being very civil. But your pretending this concept is anything but what it is, whatever.

Look, I am well aware that you are entirely a political animal, and actual military tactics and strategies mean little to you. And as somebody that was career military, it to be honest pissed me off when people on either side tried to force their political nonsense onto us in the military.

Far-Right, Far-Left, it is the same coprolite to me, just in a different suit.

 

[francoHFW]

Pleeeeeezzzzze.


Harry Hopkins,- FDR's alter ego, co-president, or Rasputin, "...the closest and most influential adviser to President Franklin D. Roosevelt during World War II, was a Soviet agent." and “the most important of all Soviet wartime agents in the United States.”
The Treachery Of Harry Hopkins
The Treachery Of Harry Hopkins

It's very difficult to get feeling for Harry Hopkins, he manages to do well what really good spies do: remain unnoticed. But there is scholarship on Hopkins....and you can draw your own conclusions.

Life magazine ran a spread on Hopkins on September 22, 1941, calling his a one-man cabinet to Roosevelt. In fact, he lived at the White House, in the Lincoln Bedroom, from May 1940 to December 1943. LIFE

FDR welcomed spies in his administration.....he promoted them.

What Stalin wanted.....Normandy......was all FDR heard and agreed to.

Sorry, no conspiracy AGAIN. They basically understood that the USSR was basically winning the war against the Germans by themselves and we had to be at nice with them period of course the Russkies didn't want the allies to come up through Italy and get to the Balkans etc before the USSR....

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Churchill repeatedly proposed an attack via already established Allied bases in Italy, and expanding operations from the Adriatic and Aegean Seas into south central Europe, Stalin wanted Eastern and Central Europe left open to millions of Red Army troops. "The D-Day invasion was forced on a reluctant Churchill by the Americans..... pressed instead for a strategy focused on the Mediterranean, pushing through the "soft underbelly" of southern Europe, over the Alps and through the Balkans. The Americans prevailed because they provided an increasingly larger share of the forces and funding.... Roosevelt dispatched Marshall and presidential envoy Harry Hopkins to London to sell the idea to the British." Churchill’s Southern Strategy - Air Force Magazine







In Tehran, Roosevelt sided with Stalin. Churchill was beside himself! It was at Tehran that Churchill realized that to help the countries of Eastern Europe, he had to get there before the Red Army.

Lord Moran "Churchill: Taken from the Diaries of Lord Moran," p. 155

That would have denied Uncle Joe a lot of Eastern European real estate and save tens of millions from 50 years of Communist oppression

 

[Mushroom]

Do you have an argument against anything I have said, or are you just another ignorant right wing GOP base ignoramus who has nothing but stupid talking points and personal insults

And once again, this is almost the entirety of your argument? That I am "GOP"?

Wow, you really do have no actual argument at all, and are simply attacking over and over and accusing me of things with absolutely no reason.

Last time, what on earth makes you think I am "GOP"? In case you did not know, PC here is so far to the Right that she almost considers President Reagan a Communist. Yet, you agree with her in this madness, and constantly attack me as being a "Right Winger", with absolutely no evidence at all.

Not unusual, as you have no evidence to back up any of your claims. You are just a flaming troll, and to be honest I have been laughing at your nonsense for ages. I ask you to back up and support your claims, you insult me. I ask again, you spin in a circle. Then finally, you tell us what a military expert you are because you stayed in France for a few weeks.

This is what I find so damned hilarious about the political animals when they manage to stumble into either the military or history areas. They try to scream political nonsense, and think it actually means something. Both you and PC are on opposite sides of the political chart, yet you for some reason are agreeing, and attacking anybody that does not agree. And interestingly, several of us are regular posters in both the history and military areas. Many of which I often do not agree with, but we generally keep things civil and attack the points, not each other.

You two, you constantly attack the individuals. Because it seems that the only thing you can ever fall back on is that I am "GOP". Which I am not, but if that is your only argument to use against me, why not just bring up my race? After all, obviously I am just another "Ignorant Indian", so what would I know about such things?" Or how about the fact I wear glasses, so am so myopic I can not see your truths for what they are? Why not make those claims instead?

Because at least they would be accurate about me.

But at least this has been entertaining to a slight degree. Unlike the usual topic at this time of the year, of constant self-loathing because we nuked an innocent Japan that wanted to give peace a chance.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

I quoted Eisenhower and his considered opinion.



Churchill repeatedly proposed an attack via already established Allied bases in Italy, and expanding operations from the Adriatic and Aegean Seas into south central Europe, Stalin wanted Eastern and Central Europe left open to millions of Red Army troops. "The D-Day invasion was forced on a reluctant Churchill by the Americans..... pressed instead for a strategy focused on the Mediterranean, pushing through the "soft underbelly" of southern Europe, over the Alps and through the Balkans. The Americans prevailed because they provided an increasingly larger share of the forces and funding.... Roosevelt dispatched Marshall and presidential envoy Harry Hopkins to London to sell the idea to the British." Churchill’s Southern Strategy - Air Force Magazine







In Tehran, Roosevelt sided with Stalin. Churchill was beside himself! It was at Tehran that Churchill realized that to help the countries of Eastern Europe, he had to get there before the Red Army.

Lord Moran "Churchill: Taken from the Diaries of Lord Moran," p. 155

The irony is that without British Ultra laying bare the German plans, the USSR would have never faired so well in any engagement from Stalingrad on.