The Forgotten Part Of Normandy

[CrusaderFrank]

Oh holy hell, you know NOTHING about WWII if you do not know that, and are demanding links.

Winter Line - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Now quite a while back I brought up the battle of Monte Cassino. Which deadlocked the Allied forces south of Rome from January to May 1944. It took over 210,000 Allied forces to finally break through that, at the loss of over 55,000. Meanwhile, the Germans lost less than 20,000 as once they started to lose ground they simply pulled back.

Almost all of Italy was a massive delaying action by the German Army. They did not care how many civilians were killed, how many Italian treasures of architecture and cultural importance were destroyed, it was not their country. They were willing to see all of it destroyed, if only to slow down the Allies and kill more of them.

Battle of Monte Cassino - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I normally do not use Wikipedia for a reference, but you seem to have forgotten everything I had ever said about the Invasion of Italy, and I am not willing to repeat it all over again. And obviously you have never learned of that part of the war, even through movies. Try watching The Audie Murphy Story, or The Big Red One. Both of which went over the Invasion of Italy.

Or you can simply look at this map. It shows the advancement through Italy, and even the territory the Allies held when the war ended when Der Paper Hangar ate a Walther Sandwich.

Stalin would NEVER have picked up Hungary or much else in Eastern Europe

 

[PoliticalChic]

The hermeneutic key to understanding everything covered in this thread......that Stalin controlled Roosevelt's mind and soul.....if he had a soul......can be seen in this series of events, the results of which continued even after FDR died.....his orders vis-a-vis Stalin remained in effect.
. Lest any be mislead into believing that American lives were a priority to Roosevelt and his coterie, he let Stalin….his erstwhile ally….. Stalin keep some 25,000 American soldiers as prisoners after the war.




For Eisenhower, following orders was more important than either swiftly winning the war, or even preserving the lives of his troops.
.... he was selected because he passed the big test: he was OK'd by Stalin. Evidence here:


" By May 15, 1945, the Pentagon believed 25,000 American POWs "liberated" by the Red Army were still being held hostage to Soviet demands that all "Soviet citizens" be returned to Soviet control, "without exception" and by force if necessary, as agreed to at the Yalta Conference in February 1945.

When the U.S. refused to return some military formations composed of Soviet citizens, such as the First Ukrainian SS Division, Stalin retaliated by returning only 4,116 of the [25,000] hostage American POWs.

On June 1, 1945, the United States Government issued documents, signed by General Dwight D. Eisenhower, explaining away the loss of approximately 20,000 POWs remaining under Stalin's control."
http://www.nationalalliance.org/wwii/wwii.htm
National Alliance of Families





This is not idle conversation.....this is 20,000 American boys left to die in Stalin's gulags by the Roosevelt administration.

Left by Roosevelt, Hopkins, Marshall.....
....and Eisenhower.





Five day after V-E Day, the AP filed a startling news report from SHAEF: "Nearly half of the estimated 200,000 British and 76,000 American prisoners of war still in Germany are believed to be within the Russian zone of occupation and Supreme Headquarters has twice requested a meeting or arrangement to arrange their return."
Senate Minority POW/MIA Report, 39."SHAEF Asks Russians About Freed PW's", AP Dispatch, ADVANCE HEADQUARTERS, Reims, France, May 12, 1945

a. On May 19, 1945, Eisenhower signed a cable stating "Numbers of US prisoners estimated in Russian control 25,000"


b. Americans in Soviet custody were "in effect being held hostage"; "we may find a reluctance to return them all..." The realization began to dawn that they may never come home at all.
Major R.W. Barker, 'Report on Conference With Russian Officials Relative to Repatriation of Prisoners of War, May 23, 1945, See Senate Minority POW/MIA Report, 41.





What happened? The Senate report goes on to assemble the relevant record of subsequent statements, memos, tallies and the like to arrive at its bottom line: between 12,500 and 20,000 U.S. servicemen were left behind after World.







"I can’t think of anything that puts a more American face on this uniquely twentieth-century record of perfidy [by Roosevelt and his administration] than the betrayal of our own fighting fathers, brothers, husbands, and sons, Americans of successive generations beginning back before the so-called Greatest Generation, all the way up to the baby boomers. Along with their long-suffering families, they would become the uniquely American sacrifice to the conspiracy of silence that improbably held the Free World and the Un-Free World together, partners in crime, over the course of the twentieth century. Sacrifices, all, to American betrayal."
Diana West, "American Betrayal," chapter 11
The Death of the Grown-Up | Diana West > Home - Memorial




a. FDR died April 12th..but, based on Marshall's order, the White House clearly knew of the following prior to that:

“…of perfidy [by Roosevelt and his administration] than the betrayal of our own fighting fathers, brothers, husbands, and sons…”




Let's hear those Roosevelt fluffers defend this.

 

[BackAgain]

1. That was that there didn't have to be a Normandy. It was at the insistence of Joseph Stalin, and Franklin Roosevelt's constant grabbing-the-ankles, that there was a Normandy.
"The estimated total battle casualties for the United States were 135,000, including 29,000 killed and 106,000 wounded and missing. United States casualties are taken from Office of the Adjutant General, Army Battle Casualties and Nonbattle Deaths in World War II: Final Report, 7 December 1941–31 December 1946, page 92.
Estimated Battle Casualties during the Normandy Invasion on ...
https://www.britannica.com › story › estimated-battle-casu...



2. Stalin ordered his vassal, FDR, to make the attack on Fortress Europa as far West as possible so that the Red Army could occupy fully half of Europe post war.
We already owned Italy, and the correct strategy would have been straight up into Germany.




3. Stalin insisted on a 'second front,' the assumption being that Hitler's attack on the Soviet homeland, June 21, 1941, was the 'first front.'

Further, Stalin insisted....demanded .....that the second front be as far west in Europe as possible....so that at war's end, the Red Army could occupy and control all of Eastern Europe.

This meant that, although the Allies had control of Italy and could advance north into Germany, the Adriatic second front was not acceptable to Stalin....only Normandy, France, was.






4. Now....what could have made him change his mind, and agree with Stalin/Roosevelt?

" In December1943, it was announced that Eisenhower would be Supreme Allied Commander in Europe."Military career of Dwight D. Eisenhower - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Suddenly, the Roosevelt/Stalin choice, Normandy, became exemplary.





5. How about Eisenhower's assessment at the time?

....until FDR bribed him with another star, Eisenhower disagreed with the Stalin/FDR plan to attack from the far West, Normandy.

"Italy was the correct place in which to deploy our main forces and the objective should be the Valle of the PO.In no other area could we so well threaten the whole German structure including France, the Balkans and the Reich itself. Here also our air would becloser to vital objectives in Germany."
FRUS: The conferences at Cairo and Tehran, 1943, p.359-361
That report was published in "Foreign Relations of the United States" in 1961
Eisenhower's statement was to an audience in November 26, 1943....



Franklin Roosevelt and his Democrats......the greatest friend the Bolsheviks had........and have.

Just ask Hillary were she got that dossier.

Very interesting OP.

 

[westwall]

The hermeneutic key to understanding everything covered in this thread......that Stalin controlled Roosevelt's mind and soul.....if he had a soul......can be seen in this series of events, the results of which continued even after FDR died.....his orders vis-a-vis Stalin remained in effect.
. Lest any be mislead into believing that American lives were a priority to Roosevelt and his coterie, he let Stalin….his erstwhile ally….. Stalin keep some 25,000 American soldiers as prisoners after the war.




For Eisenhower, following orders was more important than either swiftly winning the war, or even preserving the lives of his troops.
.... he was selected because he passed the big test: he was OK'd by Stalin. Evidence here:


" By May 15, 1945, the Pentagon believed 25,000 American POWs "liberated" by the Red Army were still being held hostage to Soviet demands that all "Soviet citizens" be returned to Soviet control, "without exception" and by force if necessary, as agreed to at the Yalta Conference in February 1945.

When the U.S. refused to return some military formations composed of Soviet citizens, such as the First Ukrainian SS Division, Stalin retaliated by returning only 4,116 of the [25,000] hostage American POWs.

On June 1, 1945, the United States Government issued documents, signed by General Dwight D. Eisenhower, explaining away the loss of approximately 20,000 POWs remaining under Stalin's control."
http://www.nationalalliance.org/wwii/wwii.htm
National Alliance of Families





This is not idle conversation.....this is 20,000 American boys left to die in Stalin's gulags by the Roosevelt administration.

Left by Roosevelt, Hopkins, Marshall.....
....and Eisenhower.





Five day after V-E Day, the AP filed a startling news report from SHAEF: "Nearly half of the estimated 200,000 British and 76,000 American prisoners of war still in Germany are believed to be within the Russian zone of occupation and Supreme Headquarters has twice requested a meeting or arrangement to arrange their return."
Senate Minority POW/MIA Report, 39."SHAEF Asks Russians About Freed PW's", AP Dispatch, ADVANCE HEADQUARTERS, Reims, France, May 12, 1945

a. On May 19, 1945, Eisenhower signed a cable stating "Numbers of US prisoners estimated in Russian control 25,000"


b. Americans in Soviet custody were "in effect being held hostage"; "we may find a reluctance to return them all..." The realization began to dawn that they may never come home at all.
Major R.W. Barker, 'Report on Conference With Russian Officials Relative to Repatriation of Prisoners of War, May 23, 1945, See Senate Minority POW/MIA Report, 41.





What happened? The Senate report goes on to assemble the relevant record of subsequent statements, memos, tallies and the like to arrive at its bottom line: between 12,500 and 20,000 U.S. servicemen were left behind after World.







"I can’t think of anything that puts a more American face on this uniquely twentieth-century record of perfidy [by Roosevelt and his administration] than the betrayal of our own fighting fathers, brothers, husbands, and sons, Americans of successive generations beginning back before the so-called Greatest Generation, all the way up to the baby boomers. Along with their long-suffering families, they would become the uniquely American sacrifice to the conspiracy of silence that improbably held the Free World and the Un-Free World together, partners in crime, over the course of the twentieth century. Sacrifices, all, to American betrayal."
Diana West, "American Betrayal," chapter 11
The Death of the Grown-Up | Diana West > Home - Memorial




a. FDR died April 12th..but, based on Marshall's order, the White House clearly knew of the following prior to that:

“…of perfidy [by Roosevelt and his administration] than the betrayal of our own fighting fathers, brothers, husbands, and sons…”




Let's hear those Roosevelt fluffers defend this.

PC, your theory is a failure because tactically you would have to be a complete moron to fight your way up the boot of Italy. It is suicide. The casualties would be astronomical. Roosevelt gave the farm away at Malta, but Northern Europe was ALWAYS the primary focus of invasion the second that the US entered the war.

Stalins wishes have nothing to do with that, not wanting to lose hundreds of thousands of soldiers does.

 

[Stryder50]

Yup, the Champagne Campaign was a fairly straightforward attack. Of course it was post D-Day so the OKW had a lot on its hands by that point.

My point would be that given the 'deadlock' on the Italian Mainland, it would not be the path for advancing closer into Germany. One option would be going around the flanks via "amphibious envelopment", but this will tie-up Allied amphibious/landing craft resources needed elsewhere. Especially for the upcoming Overlord~landings in Northern France.

Hindsight shows that Shingle~Anzio wound up being no gain, just expanded the 'deadlock" zone.

So was there an alternative to consider back then which would have expanded the front(s) and concerns of the German's in defending?

Since there was very little beach defense ("Atlantic Wall") construction in the south of France, like in the north; and given the few and low caliber of the defenders, why note go into the South of France and open "another front" in the Med./MTO?

One of many benefits is that the available Free French Forces could be landed inside their home Nation and given an earlier opportunity to liberate their Homeland. Such might also see an enlargement of the Resistance movements within France, causing the German's even more 'headaches'.

Also, such a distracting and holding venture/operation will pull away forces that could be used in Italy and/or in Northern France. Eventually making later advances in Italy less costly and/or weakening the defense forces available in northern France to block Overlord.

Moving Operation Avalanche up a few~several months would shift the focus of power and threats in the MTO while possibility enhancing chances for success of Overlord a few~several months later. Operation Avalanche earlier isn't expected to lead to an earlier liberation of Paris, etc. but would get Free French Forces on their Homeland sooner and expand the size of the fronts Germany needs to protect prior to Overlord.

 

[Ringo]

 

[CrusaderFrank]

The WAllies could have landed Trieste (Cz) -> Zagreb -> Vienna -> Prague -> Germany

 

[westwall]

My point would be that given the 'deadlock' on the Italian Mainland, it would not be the path for advancing closer into Germany. One option would be going around the flanks via "amphibious envelopment", but this will tie-up Allied amphibious/landing craft resources needed elsewhere. Especially for the upcoming Overlord~landings in Northern France.

Hindsight shows that Shingle~Anzio wound up being no gain, just expanded the 'deadlock" zone.

So was there an alternative to consider back then which would have expanded the front(s) and concerns of the German's in defending?

Since there was very little beach defense ("Atlantic Wall") construction in the south of France, like in the north; and given the few and low caliber of the defenders, why note go into the South of France and open "another front" in the Med./MTO?

One of many benefits is that the available Free French Forces could be landed inside their home Nation and given an earlier opportunity to liberate their Homeland. Such might also see an enlargement of the Resistance movements within France, causing the German's even more 'headaches'.

Also, such a distracting and holding venture/operation will pull away forces that could be used in Italy and/or in Northern France. Eventually making later advances in Italy less costly and/or weakening the defense forces available in northern France to block Overlord.

Moving Operation Avalanche up a few~several months would shift the focus of power and threats in the MTO while possibility enhancing chances for success of Overlord a few~several months later. Operation Avalanche earlier isn't expected to lead o an earlier liberation of Paris, etc. but would get Free French Forces on their Homeland sooner and expand the size of the fronts Germany needs to protect prior to Overlord.

Yes the Germans relied too heavily on the Vichy to keep control of the south. A lesson that they learned too late.

 

[francoHFW]

Nope, the bombardment ships and air power would have slaughtered the armor as soon as it came within five miles of the beaches. That's what happened to the Italian and German counterattack at Gela despite the Luftwaffe having aerial superiority over the beaches.

So why were the British tanks that were supposed to take CAEN stopped in their tracks for a month on D-Day, Mr expert. I have toured D-Day beaches at three separate times in my life at least. You amateurs are baffled by all these details and don't reach the level of theory and the big picture. Anything the Italians are involved in does not count....lol

 

[francoHFW]

Yes the Germans relied too heavily on the Vichy to keep control of the south. A lesson that they learned too late.

WTF? vichy was done in 1942 for crying out loud...

 

[francoHFW]

Academentia

Someone with a Master's Degree is not a master debater. He is a masturbator.

He's all wrong again. This is the guy that thinks Vichy. was around in 1944? Absolute idiocy just like his politics. Your pride in ignorance is stunning lol. Poor America. Hater dupe...lol

 

[Stryder50]

So why were the British tanks that were supposed to take CAEN stopped in their tracks for a month on D-Day, Mr expert. I have toured D-Day beaches at three separate times in my life at least. You amateurs are baffled by all these details and don't reach the level of theory and the big picture. Anything the Italians are involved in does not count....lol

FWIW & FYI;
...
The Battle for Caen (June to August 1944) is the name given to fighting between the British Second Army and the German Panzergruppe West in the Second World War for control of the city of Caen and its vicinity during the larger Battle of Normandy. The battles followed Operation Neptune, the Allied landings on the French coast on 6 June 1944 (D-Day).

Caen is about 9 mi (14 km) inland from the Calvados coast astride the Orne River and Caen Canal, at the junction of several roads and railways. The communication links made it an important operational objective for both sides. Caen and the area to its south are flatter and more open than the bocage country in western Normandy. Allied air force commanders wanted the area captured quickly to base more aircraft in France.

The British 3rd Infantry Division was to seize Caen on D-Day or to dig in short of the city if the Germans prevented its capture, which would temporarily mask Caen to maintain the Allied threat against it and thwart a potential German counter-attack from the city.

Caen, Bayeux and Carentan were not captured by the Allies on D-Day, and for the first week of the invasion, the Allies concentrated on linking the beachheads. British and Canadian forces resumed their attacks in the vicinity of Caen and the suburbs and city centre north of the Orne were captured during Operation Charnwood (8–9 July). The Caen suburbs south of the river were captured by the II Canadian Corps during Operation Atlantic (18–20 July). The Germans had committed most of their panzer divisions in a determined defence of Caen, which made the fighting mutually costly and greatly deprived the Germans of the means to reinforce the west end of the invasion front.

In western Normandy the US First Army cut off the Cotentin Peninsula and captured Cherbourg. It then attacked southwards towards Saint-Lô, about 37 mi (60 km) west of Caen and captured the town on 19 July. On 25 July, after weather had caused a delay, the First Army began Operation Cobra on the Saint-Lô–Périers road, which was co-ordinated with the Canadian Operation Spring at Verrières (Bourguébus) ridge, south of Caen. Cobra was a great success and began the collapse of the German position in Normandy. The Allied breakout led to the Battle of the Falaise Pocket (12–21 August), which trapped most of the remnants of the 7th Army and 5th Panzer Army (formerly Panzergruppe West) and opened the way to the Seine and Paris.

Caen was destroyed by Allied bombing and the damage from ground combat, which caused many French civilian casualties. After the battle, little of the prewar city remained, and reconstruction of the city took until 1962.
...

Battle for Caen - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[PoliticalChic]

PC, your theory is a failure because tactically you would have to be a complete moron to fight your way up the boot of Italy. It is suicide. The casualties would be astronomical. Roosevelt gave the farm away at Malta, but Northern Europe was ALWAYS the primary focus of invasion the second that the US entered the war.

Stalins wishes have nothing to do with that, not wanting to lose hundreds of thousands of soldiers does.

It's not my theory....it is the considered and calculated statement by the top military general.

You can continue to believe what you wish.....I'll go with the facts as they seem most logical.

You misread Stalin, Roosevelt, and Eisenhower.

 

[francoHFW]

It's not my theory....it is the considered and calculated statement by the top military general.

You can continue to believe what you wish.....I'll go with the facts as they seem most logical.

You misread Stalin, Roosevelt, and Eisenhower.

Westwall thinks Vichy was around in 1944 and doesn't know the Americans had already taken the whole peninsula of Italy before they got Rome and things got easier.

 

[francoHFW]

FWIW & FYI;
...
The Battle for Caen (June to August 1944) is the name given to fighting between the British Second Army and the German Panzergruppe West in the Second World War for control of the city of Caen and its vicinity during the larger Battle of Normandy. The battles followed Operation Neptune, the Allied landings on the French coast on 6 June 1944 (D-Day).

Caen is about 9 mi (14 km) inland from the Calvados coast astride the Orne River and Caen Canal, at the junction of several roads and railways. The communication links made it an important operational objective for both sides. Caen and the area to its south are flatter and more open than the bocage country in western Normandy. Allied air force commanders wanted the area captured quickly to base more aircraft in France.

The British 3rd Infantry Division was to seize Caen on D-Day or to dig in short of the city if the Germans prevented its capture, which would temporarily mask Caen to maintain the Allied threat against it and thwart a potential German counter-attack from the city.

Caen, Bayeux and Carentan were not captured by the Allies on D-Day, and for the first week of the invasion, the Allies concentrated on linking the beachheads. British and Canadian forces resumed their attacks in the vicinity of Caen and the suburbs and city centre north of the Orne were captured during Operation Charnwood (8–9 July). The Caen suburbs south of the river were captured by the II Canadian Corps during Operation Atlantic (18–20 July). The Germans had committed most of their panzer divisions in a determined defence of Caen, which made the fighting mutually costly and greatly deprived the Germans of the means to reinforce the west end of the invasion front.

In western Normandy the US First Army cut off the Cotentin Peninsula and captured Cherbourg. It then attacked southwards towards Saint-Lô, about 37 mi (60 km) west of Caen and captured the town on 19 July. On 25 July, after weather had caused a delay, the First Army began Operation Cobra on the Saint-Lô–Périers road, which was co-ordinated with the Canadian Operation Spring at Verrières (Bourguébus) ridge, south of Caen. Cobra was a great success and began the collapse of the German position in Normandy. The Allied breakout led to the Battle of the Falaise Pocket (12–21 August), which trapped most of the remnants of the 7th Army and 5th Panzer Army (formerly Panzergruppe West) and opened the way to the Seine and Paris.

Caen was destroyed by Allied bombing and the damage from ground combat, which caused many French civilian casualties. After the battle, little of the prewar city remained, and reconstruction of the city took until 1962.
...

Battle for Caen - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

France lost more civilians than the allies lost soldiers in the battle of France 1944. I prefer going through Austria thank you. Maybe they could have done a bridge too far operation through those passes. NOT impossible, Caen and le Havre were destroyed. And it didn't make things go any faster eithet .

 

[Stryder50]

It's not my theory....it is the considered and calculated statement by the top military general.

You can continue to believe what you wish.....I'll go with the facts as they seem most logical.

You misread Stalin, Roosevelt, and Eisenhower.

Before Italy proved a stagnant and expense front to fight on. Causng him to change his opinion. Also, being promoted to higher command isn't always a proof of generalship tactically speaking. Could reflect being politically savvy instead.
Clear you know nothing about military tactics/operations/strategy or the logistics and transport needed for such.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Before Italy proved a stagnant and expense front to fight on. Causng him to change his opinion. Also, being promoted to higher command isn't always a proof of generalship tactically speaking. Could reflect being politically savvy instead.
Clear you know nothing about military tactics/operations/strategy or the logistics and transport needed for such.

FDR only had the "opinion" Stalin fed him

 

[Stryder50]

FDR only had the "opinion" Stalin fed him

FDR had more contact and influence from Churchill than Stalin. About 10 to 20 times more. Also more input from the USA General and Joint Chiefs of Staff, etc.

 

[Stryder50]

It's not my theory....it is the considered and calculated statement by the top military general.

You can continue to believe what you wish.....I'll go with the facts as they seem most logical.

You misread Stalin, Roosevelt, and Eisenhower.

And you misread Marshall and Churchill, etc.
Also Eisenhower whom changed opinions based upon intel and altered circumstances post early Nov. 1943.

 

[Stryder50]

So why were the British tanks that were supposed to take CAEN stopped in their tracks for a month on D-Day, Mr expert. I have toured D-Day beaches at three separate times in my life at least. You amateurs are baffled by all these details and don't reach the level of theory and the big picture. Anything the Italians are involved in does not count....lol

Like the Allies, you need to get off the beaches to get your answer.
What wasn't foreseen was the effect of the bocage terrain;
...
Bocage (UK: /bəˈkɑːʒ/,[1] US: /ˈboʊkɑːʒ/ BOH-kahzh) is a terrain of mixed woodland and pasture characteristic of parts of Northern France, Southern England, Ireland, the Netherlands and Northern Germany, in regions where pastoral farming is the dominant land use.
...
In English, bocage refers to a terrain of mixed woodland and pasture, with fields and winding country lanes sunken between narrow low ridges and banks surmounted by tall thick hedgerows that break the wind but also limit visibility. It is the sort of landscape found in many parts of southern England, for example in Devon. However the term is more often found in technical than general usage in England. In France the term is in more general use, especially in Normandy, with a similar meaning. Bocage landscape in France is largely confined to Normandy, Brittany, and parts of the Loire valley.
...

Normandy​

In Normandy, the bocage acquired a particular significance in the Chouannerie during the French Revolution.[5]

The bocage was also significant during the Battle of Normandy in World War II, as it made progress against the German defenders difficult.[6] Plots of land were divided by ancient rows of dirt alongside irrigation ditches; thick vegetation on these dirt mounds could create walls up to sixteen feet high. A typical square mile on the battlefield might contain hundreds of irregular hedged enclosures.[7] In response, "Rhino tanks" fitted with bocage-cutting modifications were developed. American personnel usually referred to bocage as hedgerows. The German army also used sunken lanes to implement strong points and defenses to stop the American troops on the Cotentin Peninsula and around the town of Saint-Lô.[8]
...