The Forgotten Part Of Normandy

[Stryder50]

Link to that BS please?

Did you figure out that what right wing fools in Yugoslavia wanted in 1941 was a hell of a lot different than what they wanted in 1944 to 1945? Don't you wanna waste some more time with that baloney lol? When you lose an argument, just move on right. That's the US conservative way. Change the channel. Tell us again how the Democratic Party of today is the party of slavery. You people seem to be in a time warp....

How about you start with some links backing your absurd ideas and claims.

Can't "lose" an argument when there is none; rather just delusional ranting and raving of an idiot.
Whom keeps trying to inject off topic distractions it seems.

 

[Stryder50]

Of course I know all about the Italian campaign, and of course it is irrelevant to a hypothetical attack through Austria and Hungary with a full effort.

Your "full effort", in order to be timely, would involve large scale amphibious landings and resources, plus large shipping distractions to supply. Detracting from time and scale of Overlord. And likely giving more turf to eventual Russian control.
More than just looking at a map involved here.
Increasingly obvious logistics is not your strong suit, likely not even on your 'radar' ~ knowledge range.

 

[Mushroom]

Of course I know all about the Italian campaign, and of course it is irrelevant to a hypothetical attack through Austria and Hungary with a full effort.

Right, Italy does not matter because somehow they were going to just magically appear, then teleport right through Yugoslavia and then appear in Austria.

 

[francoHFW]

How about you start with some links backing your absurd ideas and claims.

Can't "lose" an argument when there is none; rather just delusional ranting and raving of an idiot.
Whom keeps trying to inject off topic distractions it seems.

What do you have a problem with in my post ? It is well known by anybody. They wanted to surrender to us

This entire thread is about Normandy versus Italy and Austria DUHH.

 

[Mushroom]

And all of them wanted to surrender to Americans rather than Russians DUHH. ... Churchill was still pushing the southern strategy in 1943 at Casablanca. That was when he got the attack on Italy and Sicily approved. Your problem is you are English speaking conservative haters who don't give a damn about the French lol... The Americans were a few miles from Austria on that map. A full effort... Churchill was not an idiot. There weren't that many Germans in Yugoslavia Greece Bulgaria etcetera and the puppet RW swine were ready to quit. Churchill was wanting to stop the Russians from taking over all the Balkans....

Wow, how much fail can be put in a single post?

Hey Braniac, the Casablanca Conference was in January 1943. You know, like 9 months before the actual Invasion of Italy. You sound like a certain politician that a few years ago said she was "for something before she was against it"

And please, give an actual reason why you think I am a "Conservative", other than I keep tearing you a new one because it is so nonsensical.

Oh yes, "a few miles" from Austria.

With terrain like that, might as well be on the other side of the Atlantic.

You are not going to move much more than a Battalion through terrain like that. It is obvious that you have absolutely no concept of what terrain is like in military operations. And simply think that invading over hundreds of miles of terrain like that is perfectly simple. Even Hannibal had problems crossing that, and he had no vehicles that he had to provide fuel for.

But go ahead, humor us. How exactly were they going to cross that?

And oh yes, "not that many Germans in Yugoslavia". Yep, only about 50,000. And another 100,000 Yugoslavian forces. That is actually more forces than they had in Italy! Once again, with that terrain they did not need many forces, it is terrain absolutely perfect for defensive operations.

I would ask if Rorke's Drift means anything to you, but I can guarantee that it means nothing. How about Thermopylae? You know, there was a kind of obscure movie made based on that, but it was 15 years ago so you likely never heard of it.

 

[francoHFW]

Right, Italy does not matter because somehow they were going to just magically appear, then teleport right through Yugoslavia and then appear in Austria.

Nobody said that stupid. They would go through Austria to get to Germany about 50 miles for God's sake. They would go through Yugoslavia to get to Hungary Bulgaria Greece. Shut the hell up you idiot

 

[francoHFW]

Wow, how much fail can be put in a single post?

Hey Braniac, the Casablanca Conference was in January 1943. You know, like 9 months before the actual Invasion of Italy. You sound like a certain politician that a few years ago said she was "for something before she was against it"

And please, give an actual reason why you think I am a "Conservative", other than I keep tearing you a new one because it is so nonsensical.

Oh yes, "a few miles" from Austria.

With terrain like that, might as well be on the other side of the Atlantic.

You are not going to move much more than a Battalion through terrain like that. It is obvious that you have absolutely no concept of what terrain is like in military operations. And simply think that invading over hundreds of miles of terrain like that is perfectly simple. Even Hannibal had problems crossing that, and he had no vehicles that he had to provide fuel for.

But go ahead, humor us. How exactly were they going to cross that?

And oh yes, "not that many Germans in Yugoslavia". Yep, only about 50,000. And another 100,000 Yugoslavian forces. That is actually more forces than they had in Italy! Once again, with that terrain they did not need many forces, it is terrain absolutely perfect for defensive operations.

I would ask if Rorke's Drift means anything to you, but I can guarantee that it means nothing. How about Thermopylae? You know, there was a kind of obscure movie made based on that, but it was 15 years ago so you likely never heard of it.

And they all wanted to surrender to the Americans dingbat. i know so much more than you morons period you're republican base for god's sake, total ignoramuses lol... .

 

[Mushroom]

If Rommel hadn't gone home, D-Day might have looked foolish also... Or they had woken up Hitler LOL...

Would have made no difference where Rommel was. Are you not even aware that he was not in command there?

The actual German Commander of West France was General Gerd von Rundstedt, and the Normandy Sector was commanded by General Erich Marcks. Rommel was the "Inspector General", and had no actual command authority. He could make no more than suggestions to the German Commanders, they did not work for him. I guess such thing is completely foreign to you, but trust me that everybody that actually understands how the military works understands exactly what I just said. But your military understanding seems to be able to fit on a matchbook cover, so that likely means nothing to you.

Also, Hitler was "awake", and knew exactly what was going on. Because of a masterful US-UK misinformation program, they were all convinced that Normandy was a feint and the actual invasion would be at Pas-de-Calais. That was not only a shorter distance, it had one of the best ports on the English Channel. Hitler and most of his experts (including Rommel) thought it would be stupid for the Allies to try and take essentially empty beach with high cliffs, when they could take an actual port.

And the misinformation program was indeed masterful. Almost legendary, not unlike decades later when the US entered Kuwait. There was to start the "First US Army Group", which Germans had learned through spies and intercepts was composed of two Armies, and several Corps sized units. In total, around a million men, all commanded by General Patton. Germany even verified the existence at great risk, sending over recon aircraft to verify they were where they were supposed to be, and they returned with photos of the massive supply dumps. Row after row of tanks, artillery, and massive tent cities holding all the personnel. And its destination was Pas-de-Calais. Of course, all who know of this battle know that the FUSAG was completely fictitious.

Here is a photos of one of "Patton's FUSAG tanks" being moved.

Once again, you are practically screaming your ignorance.

 

[Mushroom]

Nobody said that stupid. They would go through Austria to get to Germany about 50 miles for God's sake.

Oh, it was more than 50 miles, much more.

And it was all like this.

Once again, tell me how they were going to get a modern army though that.

 

[Mushroom]

And they all wanted to surrender to the Americans dingbat.

In April-May 1945, as their supplies were no longer reaching the front, they were out of food and ammunition, and the Allies were pouring in even more forces as theirs were shrinking.

Hell, obviously you never heard of the Battle of Bautzen. Where a German Army of around 50,000 men was outnumbered by over 2 to 1 in late April 1945, and won a masterful victory. Their 50,000 men and 300 tanks held off a force of over 110,000 infantry and 500 tanks for 9 days, and forced the vastly superior force to retreat.

They even retook the town of Bautzen after the Allies were forced to retreat, but lack of fuel ended the counterattack and they were forced to withdraw.

I guess you have some silly image in your mind that the Germans were just surrendering en-masse. You have your decades mixes up, that was Iraq in 1991, not Germany in 1945.

And please, care to explain why you seem obsessed for some reason that I am a "Republican"? Because ironically, I am not. Yet you are nose-deep up the backside of one of the most radical Republicans on this forum. Because by this silly logic, you should be arguing the opposite as you are agreeing with PoliticalChic. Who laughingly commonly calls me a Far-Left Democrat if not a Communist.

 

[Stryder50]

What do you have a problem with in my post ? It is well known by anybody. They wanted to surrender to us

This entire thread is about Normandy versus Italy and Austria DUHH.

My objection has nothing to do with whom wanted to surrender to who.
More to do with an absurd, impractical and difficult scheme to reach Germany through the Balkans, etc.

 

[Stryder50]

A couple of things overlooked in the OP and posts shortly after;
1) As far back as two weeks after the Pearl Harbor attack the first of USA & UK conferences were held. It was there that the "Germany First" policy was established. It was also where FDR and Marshall first broached a landing in late 1942 on the West of France to get into the war in Europe. Churchill and his more experienced generals cautioned the USA that would result in a disaster, and the "green" Americans should "ease" into modern war.

Arcadia Conference - Wikipedia​

EXCERPT:
The conference brought together the top British and American military leaders, as well as Winston Churchill and Franklin Roosevelt and their aides, in Washington from December 22, 1941, to January 14, 1942, and led to a series of major decisions that shaped the war effort in 1942–1943.

Arcadia was the first meeting on military strategy between Britain and the United States; it came two weeks after the American entry into World War II. The Arcadia Conference was a secret agreement unlike the much wider postwar plans given to the public as the Atlantic Charter, agreed between Churchill and Roosevelt in August 1941.

The main policy achievements of Arcadia included the decision for "Germany First" (or "Europe first"—that is, the defeat of Germany was the highest priority); the establishment of the Combined Chiefs of Staff, based in Washington, for approving the military decisions of both the US and Britain; the principle of unity of command of each theater under a supreme commander; drawing up measures to keep China in the war; limiting the reinforcements to be sent to the Pacific; and setting up a system for coordinating shipping. All the decisions were secret, except the conference drafted the Declaration by United Nations, which committed the Allies to make no separate peace with the enemy, and to employ full resources until victory.[11][12]

In immediate tactical terms, the decisions at Arcadia included an invasion of North Africa in 1942, sending American bombers to bases in England, and for the British to strengthen their forces in the Pacific. Arcadia created a unified American-British-Dutch-Australian Command (ABDA) in the Far East; the ABDA fared poorly. It was also agreed at the conference to combine military resources under one command in the European Theater of Operations (ETO).[13]
...

Arcadia Conference - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

~~~~~~~~~~
for further reference;

List of Allied World War II conferences - Wikipedia​

2) About mid-1944 Germany began to attack England with cruise missile=V-1 and later ballistic missile=V-2 weapons. Along with other indications of German R&D into new and advanced technologies*, one not so public incentive to get to German via shortest and quickest route was to
A) Capture the rocket launch sites, stop those attacking UK mainland.
B) Beat the Russians to getting access to German Research and Development sites, their scientists and technicians, and any information and processes that could be taken.

*= Such as jet powered fighters and bombers, and anti-aircraft missiles, etc.

 

[Stryder50]

Another key and major factor/component here that many either don't know of or are overlooking;
...
EXCERPT:
Operation Bolero was the commonly used reference for the code name of the United States military troop buildup in the United Kingdom during World War II in preparation for the initial cross-channel invasion plan known as Operation Roundup, to be implemented in mid-1943, or for its lesser contingency alternative, Operation Sledgehammer, to be executed in the fall of 1942 in the event of German setbacks or to ease Axis pressure on the Eastern Front. ("Bolero" was the code name used in official communications to stand in for "United Kingdom" when describing the theater or movements.) What later became the Bolero plan – the buildup of a strategic air force in Great Britain in preparation for Roundup – was first submitted by Commanding General of the U.S. Army Air Forces, Henry H. Arnold, to General George Marshall, the U.S. Army Chief of Staff, on April 12, 1942, and set in motion a huge movement of men and material that laid the groundwork for Operation Overlord.

To complement the Roundup invasion plan, planning for the movement and basing of U.S. forces in the United Kingdom was begun at the end of April 1942 and given the code name of Bolero. A combined committee of key British and American logistical officers worked in both Washington, D.C. and London planning the build-up, to co-ordinate the effort on the highest level. On 5 May 1942, Gen. George Marshall and Commanding General, Services of Supply, Lt. Gen. Brehon B. Somervell named Major General John C. H. Lee as Commanding General, Services of Supply, U.S. Army Forces, British Isles. Lee would spend two weeks in Washington on initial planning and key staff, and then fly to England to build the operation, and begin work on the hundreds of bases, airfields, warehouses, depots, hospitals, and storage tanks that would support the 3 million U.S. military personnel eventually coming overseas.

In May 1942, with a tentative target date for Roundup of April 1943, the Operations Division of the War Department and USAAF Headquarters drafted plans to transport and house a million American troops: 525,000 ground troops, 240,000 air force troops, and 235,000 from Services of Supply. Arnold's plan to Marshall called for the basing by April 1, 1943, of 21 heavy bomb groups (B-17 and B-24), 8 medium bomb groups (B-26 and B-25), 9 light bomb groups (A-20), 17 fighter groups (P-38, P-39, P-40, and P-47), 6 observation groups, and 8 transport groups—a total of 69 combat groups plus their service units.

General Arnold met with RAF Air Chief Marshal Charles Portal at the end of May 1942 and presented the U.S. schedule for the arrival of U.S. Army Air Forces into the theater by March 1943, totalling 3,649 aircraft. The proposed build-up anticipated 15 groups in July, 35 by November and 66 by March, excluding observation squadrons. Arnold anticipated that by the April 1 deadline, the combat units of the Eighth Air Force would have 800 heavy bombers, 600 medium bombers, 342 light bombers, and 960 fighters. (At the time the actual strength of the Eighth in the United Kingdom was 1,871 troops and no aircraft).
...

Operation Bolero - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

~~~~~~~~~~~~
Note the very early focus on invasion through west or north France and rather impractical hubris of how soon such could happen.

 

[Mushroom]

The conference brought together the top British and American military leaders, as well as Winston Churchill and Franklin Roosevelt and their aides, in Washington from December 22, 1941, to January 14, 1942, and led to a series of major decisions that shaped the war effort in 1942–1943.

-snip-

In immediate tactical terms, the decisions at Arcadia included an invasion of North Africa in 1942, sending American bombers to bases in England, and for the British to strengthen their forces in the Pacific. Arcadia created a unified American-British-Dutch-Australian Command (ABDA) in the Far East; the ABDA fared poorly. It was also agreed at the conference to combine military resources under one command in the European Theater of Operations (ETO).[13]

Those of us who studied the war immediately recognize that as Operation Torch. Which in many ways was an embarrassment and was won at a great cost.

And over and over, I talked about the U-boat war and the major logistical nightmare in getting supplies to Italy alone, let alone to support an army attacking into Germany from Italy. One of the things done prior to Operation Torch was to sacrifice a convoy to the Kreigsmarine.

UK Convoy SL-125 was composed of 42 merchant ships with 3 escorts traveling from Sierra Leone to Liverpool. It was sent out though to attract the German submarines in the area, and it worked. The U-boats did not detect the Allied forces, as all 10 subs in the region attacked the convoy. Sinking 12 of the 42 merchant ships. Over 25% of the convoy was sunk, a pawn sacrificed to allow the invasion of North Africa.

 

[Stryder50]

About 14 US Army divisions fought in the MTO during WWII. Several rotated out of there and were involved in Normandy and later action sin northern France/Europe. This link provides a list of those divisions and their general record. It also provides several maps showing deployments and operations. Though mostly focused on US Army divisions, some clues on other Allies also are shown.

Mediterranean Theater of Operations, United States Army​

Here is a graphic on deployments;

..........
And this interesting note at the end;
...
Po Valley 5 April - 8 May 1945
The effectiveness of interdiction in northern Italy was shown by the success of the final Allied drive in that area in April 1945. With communications shattered, the Germans were unable to move enough materiel to make a stand after being driven from their defensive positions south of the Po. Allied forces crossed the river on 25 April; and on 4 May, at the Italian end of the Brenner Pass, Fifth Army met the Seventh, which had driven into Germany and turned southward into Austria. With the joining of these forces the war in Italy was over.
...

Mediterranean Theater in World War II — US Army Divisions

www.armydivs.com

~~~~~~~~~~~~
BTW, thinking of opening a thread on what might have been a more workable alternative invasion site during the MTO, that would be invading the South of France instead of doing Anzio and before Overlord.

 

[Mushroom]

Weapons of Mass Deception by Rick Beyer (Works That Work magazine)

Part of the Second World War was fought with dummy vehicles and counterfeit weapons designed to deceive the enemy and confuse intel.

worksthatwork.com

 

[westwall]

About 14 US Army divisions fought in the MTO during WWII. Several rotated out of there and were involved in Normandy and later action sin northern France/Europe. This link provides a list of those divisions and their general record. It also provides several maps showing deployments and operations. Though mostly focused on US Army divisions, some clues on other Allies also are shown.

Mediterranean Theater of Operations, United States Army​

Here is a graphic on deployments;

..........
And this interesting note at the end;
...
Po Valley 5 April - 8 May 1945
The effectiveness of interdiction in northern Italy was shown by the success of the final Allied drive in that area in April 1945. With communications shattered, the Germans were unable to move enough materiel to make a stand after being driven from their defensive positions south of the Po. Allied forces crossed the river on 25 April; and on 4 May, at the Italian end of the Brenner Pass, Fifth Army met the Seventh, which had driven into Germany and turned southward into Austria. With the joining of these forces the war in Italy was over.
...

Mediterranean Theater in World War II — US Army Divisions

www.armydivs.com

~~~~~~~~~~~~
BTW, thinking of opening a thread on what might have been a more workable alternative invasion site during the MTO, that would be invading the South of France instead of doing Anzio and before Overlord.

Yup, the Champagne Campaign was a fairly straightforward attack. Of course it was post D-Day so the OKW had a lot on its hands by that point.

 

[Stryder50]

Those of us who studied the war immediately recognize that as Operation Torch. Which in many ways was an embarrassment and was won at a great cost.

And over and over, I talked about the U-boat war and the major logistical nightmare in getting supplies to Italy alone, let alone to support an army attacking into Germany from Italy. One of the things done prior to Operation Torch was to sacrifice a convoy to the Kreigsmarine.

UK Convoy SL-125 was composed of 42 merchant ships with 3 escorts traveling from Sierra Leone to Liverpool. It was sent out though to attract the German submarines in the area, and it worked. The U-boats did not detect the Allied forces, as all 10 subs in the region attacked the convoy. Sinking 12 of the 42 merchant ships. Over 25% of the convoy was sunk, a pawn sacrificed to allow the invasion of North Africa.

I've also studied World War Two, extensively, and know that Bolero rolled over into Torch. I'd hesitate to call it an embarrassment but rather an essential learning opportunity. "Conquering" western North Africa took longer than the USA thought it would and along the way the US Army got bloodied in modern armored/'blitzkrieg' combat. Learning essential lessons on defects of some of our equipment, organization, and tactics which would make future campaigns less costly. The USA also gained a realistic appreciation of the capabilities of the German Army&Air Force.

Yes, know you've discussed the threat of the German u-boats, and Luftwaffe on occasion. Note that such threats were just as great, if not more so, in getting supplies, material, and men to England/UK. And some of Torch/MTO forces moved again from UK to the Med.

The US Navy already had some experience in sailing warships thru the Straits of Gibraltar in missions prior to Torch when the USS Wasp (CV-7) ferried aircraft to Malta.
...
Wasp was initially employed in the Atlantic campaign, where Axis naval forces were perceived as less capable of inflicting decisive damage. After supporting the occupation of Iceland in 1941, Wasp joined the British Home Fleet in April 1942 and twice ferried British fighter aircraft to Malta.
...

USS Wasp (CV-7) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Also, Germany's Navy didn't have such an easy time getting U-boats past Gibraltar into the Med., and the Italian Navy was increasingly less a threat due to losses and shortages of oil for their ships.

War is always a matter of balancing risks versus opportunities, with costs underlying each path. Once involved in North Africa, and with the German defeat in Tunisia, it was a matter of further momentum to on to Sicily, and then on to the Italian mainland.

Italy's surrender to the Allies in early September after the landings in southern Italy gave a false hope and illusion, that was quickly shattered by the rapid German response resulting in the Gustaf Line (of resistance). At that time, Italian forces had been garrisoning Southern France and they were quickly interned by the German's and replace with third rate German units. Such German units were under manned and under equip (very short on their TO&E) hence for several months the south of France would have been more "ripe for the picking" than later.

Also, by about mid to late 1943, the "Battle of the Atlantic" saw a turning point in favor of the Allies, as more escort ships, carriers, and long range patrol Aircraft made things more dangerous for the German U-boats. This similar advantage/gain would apply in the MTO and didn't stop the Allies from Operation Shingle - the landings at Anzio, intended to flank the Gustaf Line.

Operation Shingle: Landing at Anzio, Italy - Navy​

The Impact of Operation Shingle during World War II​

Operation Shingle - Battle of Anzio, 22 January-5 June 1944​

 

[AZrailwhale]

If they woke up Hitler or let Rommel run the tanks, we could have been thrown back...

Nope, the bombardment ships and air power would have slaughtered the armor as soon as it came within five miles of the beaches. That's what happened to the Italian and German counterattack at Gela despite the Luftwaffe having aerial superiority over the beaches.

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

The Allies took Rome because Germany abandoned it. For two reasons, number one, they didn't want to destroy it, as they did in Paris as well, and 2nd, it is fairly hard to defend. Instead they pulled back to far more defensive terrain.

Normandy was actually a fairly straightforward proposition. There was one German Tank regiment, part of the 21st Pz Division, that had the ability to get to the beaches in the critical hours, but the Brit Para units at Pegasus Bridge prevented them from making it.

And no, Hitler wasn't asleep when the critical decision needed to be made about sending reinforcements to the Normandy beachhead, the Americans had spent months, with the help of a very special US Army Signal Corps unit, creating the fiction that there was a large invasion force at the Pas de Calais. That is why Hitler wouldn't release the reserves.

For someone with a supposed Masters degree you are remarkably ignorant of military history.

Academentia

Someone with a Master's Degree is not a master debater. He is a masturbator.