The Electoral College Needs to Go

[Beef_Supreme]

Majority rule is not a good idea.

Which leaves minority rule?

Interesting.

Which minority?

I believe you have the Incorrect premise.
The electoral college was to make sure things weren’t just majority rule, any majority. It was so large urban centers didn’t overwhelm other areas.
I don’t claim to be any type
Of expert regarding the EC. In fact, my constitutional knowledge is a bit lacking in this area. I couldn’t really debate it in a competent way. So I’m open to hear what you say regarding the manner.
I will state, however, that I am biased in regards to changing the constitution. I believe it was an incredible document, and making changes to it is generally a bad idea. Take for example the senate and what we did to it.
The senate’s purpose was to represent the states in the federal government. House was to represent the people. Now the senate has been destroyed and turned into a smaller (in numbers) house. It’s redundant and the states no longer have direct federal representation.

there are some changes I’d like to see. Term limits being a huge one.

 

[Beef_Supreme]

If Republicans play stupid games in January, it will lose favor with everyone who isn't trumpfisti, and will be gone within a few years.

Though if Pence were to pretend that he has any function in the process other than counting the certified results, the people will see that there is According-to-Hoyle tyranny and there will be bloodshed in response. Trumfisti homes will be targeted relentlessly by everyone else, until the problem is irradicated.

Interesting semi-threat you make there.
Kinda funny as how your side has already targeted trump supporters for violence all year.
I have news for you... your bullshit doesn’t scare me. It doesn’t scare the majority of us conservatives.
I for one welcome the idea of fools to come and target our homes. In fact, please do so while I’m at home. See how that works out for you.

 

[Beef_Supreme]

Majority rule is not a good idea.

Which leaves minority rule?

Interesting.

Which minority?

Majority rule is not a good idea.

Which leaves minority rule?

Interesting.

Which minority?

Wasn't it minority rule that led the the Revolutionary War in the first place?

I believe it was a little more than that. It was essentially a political deadlock. The country split into 2 camps that could not or would not come to an agreement. The only way to resolve their differences was by seperating. And then the other side found that unacceptable, and we had a war.
Hardly unheard of.

 

[JoeB131]

I believe you have the Incorrect premise.
The electoral college was to make sure things weren’t just majority rule, any majority. It was so large urban centers didn’t overwhelm other areas.

But that's not what the thinking at the time was at all. At the time, America was largely an agrarian society, NYC, for instance, only had a population of 25,000 in 1776. It wouldn't have even qualified as a large suburb today. No, the fear was that a more populus state would dominate, which was a worry when there were only 13 states.

I don’t claim to be any type
Of expert regarding the EC. In fact, my constitutional knowledge is a bit lacking in this area. I couldn’t really debate it in a competent way. So I’m open to hear what you say regarding the manner.

Here's the thing about the EC. The method they came up with in 1787 didn't work. It was a rushed compromise to get Geo. Washington to agree to be president, and the first two elections were by acclamation. The next one was the first one with any real contest, between Adams and Jefferson, after a handful of other candidates were eliminated by the EC, it was decided by Congress. Adams got the Presidential slot, Jefferson got Veep, they never really were allies (although they became fast friends after they both left office). In 1800, you had the bit where Aaron Burr tried to sneak into the presidency by the back door. After that, they passed the 12th Amendment to give us the EC in the form we have today.

I will state, however, that I am biased in regards to changing the constitution. I believe it was an incredible document, and making changes to it is generally a bad idea. Take for example the senate and what we did to it.
The senate’s purpose was to represent the states in the federal government. House was to represent the people. Now the senate has been destroyed and turned into a smaller (in numbers) house. It’s redundant and the states no longer have direct federal representation.

But then you have to consider why they stopped letting the state legislatures pick senators... because there was so much corruption involved in the process.

The problem with a bicameral Congress is that it's modelled after the British Parliament ... but the British had the good sense to make the House of Lords ceremonial after a certain point.

there are some changes I’d like to see. Term limits being a huge one.

We have term limits. They're called "Elections". The problem is, of course, that when you guys say you want term limits, it isn't for your Senator or Congressman, it's for that annoying guy from another state who's been there forever and you don't like his positions.

 

[eagle7-31]

By JoeB131

The 2020 Election has proven one thing, that it is past time for America go get rid of the 18th century anachronism of the Electoral College.

The reasons that the electoral college is detrimental can be identified pretty easily.

• The presidents it chooses over the will of the people always turn out to be bad for the country. Not only the modern examples of George W. Bush (crashing the economy, getting us into a war based on lies), and Trump (the list is too long of his failings) but the earlier ones like Rutherford B. Hayes, whose administration reversed victory in the Civil War, or John Q. Adams, who corrupted congress to win. They are almost always a mistake the voters needed to correct the next election.
• It creates a false sense of mandate. Even when the people are clear in their choice, a 60/40 win like Reagan in 1984 or Nixon in 1972 appear to have a mandate with a mostly single color map when in fact there were plenty who didn’t support them.
• It makes it impossible for third parties to gain any traction. Every year, we hear about how we are “Stuck with the lesser of two evils”. American history is full of third parties that challenged the duopoly of the Democrats and Republicans, but none of them really last beyond an election cycle or two. Why? Because at the end of the day, the best they could hope for is to throw the election into Congress. Case in point, the Reform Party. Ross Perot was a bit eccentric, but he brought issues to the fore that other parties didn’t. Yet by 2000, the Reform party was done.
• At some point, it will make it impossible for the GOP to win. This is something that the GOP should consider. Texas came closer to turning blue this time than it ever has, and demographic changes will make that inevitable. Once that happens, it will be nearly impossible for the GOP to get an electoral majority, even if they win the popular vote.
• It depresses voter participation. If you didn’t live in one of the ten “Swing states”, there was really not much reason for you to come out and vote, was there? Even though 2020 was a record turnout, 80 million Americans, or about 34% of the eligible electorate, did not vote. Why should they, when they were already painting their state red or blue before a single vote was counted.
• It causes candidates to pander to the interests of small groups over the good of the country. The Cuban American community in Florida is still bitter about a revolution that happened 60 years ago, but it still factors into our politics, keeping us from normalizing relations with Cuba. Meanwhile, in Iowa, we are still spending money to subsidize ethanol nobody really wants to put in their cars. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
• It’s kind of racist. The fact that small homogenous rural states have outsized influence over diverse urban states in this system is a real problem in a country that has historically oppressed minorities. The fact is that it has contributed to the racial divide in this country, where one party has effectively become a white identity party, while the other had tied its fortunes to minority turnout.
• It is subject to a lot of potential mischief after the votes are tallied. The 2020 election itself was not in doubt. Biden won by 7 million votes. Yet we have had endless arguments about some 45,000 votes in Arizona, Georgia and Wisconsin. State Legislatures, federal and state courts, faithless electors and congress have all been called upon to change the results, calling the whole system into question.

There is a very simple solution to the problems above. Adopt a system like the French have. You have a presidential election, where if the winner gets 50%+1, he wins, but if no one clears 50%, there would be a runoff. This will allow fuller participation, allow third parties greater exposure, and at the end, we will have a president with a clear mandate for change.

So does 90 percent of the Democrat party and 75 percent of the GOP. But all three are likely to be around for awhile. LOL

 

[JoeB131]

So does 90 percent of the Democrat party and 75 percent of the GOP. But all three are likely to be around for awhile. LOL

Post Trump, when the full scale of the disaster is known, you are going to see a lot of people questioning why we put a clearly unfit person in the presidency after the people said "NO".

 

[Indeependent]

So does 90 percent of the Democrat party and 75 percent of the GOP. But all three are likely to be around for awhile. LOL

Post Trump, when the full scale of the disaster is known, you are going to see a lot of people questioning why we put a clearly unfit person in the presidency after the people said "NO".

What disaster? Not bribing other nations not to like us?
I can't wait till the money for infrastructure upgrading runs out and a couple of lockdowns and rising interest rates and massive unemployment.

 

[OKTexas]

Of course I don't need a unanimous vote.

The United States does, though.

No, actually, we really don't. We have mechanisms to rid ourselves of this abortion.

Yes, we sure do. A unanimous vote.

Go read Article 5 of the Constitution and stop embarrassing yourself.

.

 

[JoeB131]

What disaster? Not bribing other nations not to like us?
I can't wait till the money for infrastructure upgrading runs out and a couple of lockdowns and rising interest rates and massive unemployment.

Wow, you sound like the guy who kills his girlfriend because she dumped him for another guy.

 

[OKTexas]

By JoeB131

The 2020 Election has proven one thing, that it is past time for America go get rid of the 18th century anachronism of the Electoral College.

The reasons that the electoral college is detrimental can be identified pretty easily.

• The presidents it chooses over the will of the people always turn out to be bad for the country. Not only the modern examples of George W. Bush (crashing the economy, getting us into a war based on lies), and Trump (the list is too long of his failings) but the earlier ones like Rutherford B. Hayes, whose administration reversed victory in the Civil War, or John Q. Adams, who corrupted congress to win. They are almost always a mistake the voters needed to correct the next election.
• It creates a false sense of mandate. Even when the people are clear in their choice, a 60/40 win like Reagan in 1984 or Nixon in 1972 appear to have a mandate with a mostly single color map when in fact there were plenty who didn’t support them.
• It makes it impossible for third parties to gain any traction. Every year, we hear about how we are “Stuck with the lesser of two evils”. American history is full of third parties that challenged the duopoly of the Democrats and Republicans, but none of them really last beyond an election cycle or two. Why? Because at the end of the day, the best they could hope for is to throw the election into Congress. Case in point, the Reform Party. Ross Perot was a bit eccentric, but he brought issues to the fore that other parties didn’t. Yet by 2000, the Reform party was done.
• At some point, it will make it impossible for the GOP to win. This is something that the GOP should consider. Texas came closer to turning blue this time than it ever has, and demographic changes will make that inevitable. Once that happens, it will be nearly impossible for the GOP to get an electoral majority, even if they win the popular vote.
• It depresses voter participation. If you didn’t live in one of the ten “Swing states”, there was really not much reason for you to come out and vote, was there? Even though 2020 was a record turnout, 80 million Americans, or about 34% of the eligible electorate, did not vote. Why should they, when they were already painting their state red or blue before a single vote was counted.
• It causes candidates to pander to the interests of small groups over the good of the country. The Cuban American community in Florida is still bitter about a revolution that happened 60 years ago, but it still factors into our politics, keeping us from normalizing relations with Cuba. Meanwhile, in Iowa, we are still spending money to subsidize ethanol nobody really wants to put in their cars. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
• It’s kind of racist. The fact that small homogenous rural states have outsized influence over diverse urban states in this system is a real problem in a country that has historically oppressed minorities. The fact is that it has contributed to the racial divide in this country, where one party has effectively become a white identity party, while the other had tied its fortunes to minority turnout.
• It is subject to a lot of potential mischief after the votes are tallied. The 2020 election itself was not in doubt. Biden won by 7 million votes. Yet we have had endless arguments about some 45,000 votes in Arizona, Georgia and Wisconsin. State Legislatures, federal and state courts, faithless electors and congress have all been called upon to change the results, calling the whole system into question.

There is a very simple solution to the problems above. Adopt a system like the French have. You have a presidential election, where if the winner gets 50%+1, he wins, but if no one clears 50%, there would be a runoff. This will allow fuller participation, allow third parties greater exposure, and at the end, we will have a president with a clear mandate for change.

That can’t happen. It isn’t in the best interest of the radical right. So there will never be a constitutional amendment. We can pass a law saying all electors have to be assigned to the person who won the popular vote (or be assigned peoportionately). That won’t happen until Mitch McConnell is no longer leader of the senate.
So everyone with a brain knows what has to happen in Georgia in January in order to end minority rule of this country

That would require an amendment as well.

.

 

[Indeependent]

What disaster? Not bribing other nations not to like us?
I can't wait till the money for infrastructure upgrading runs out and a couple of lockdowns and rising interest rates and massive unemployment.

Wow, you sound like the guy who kills his girlfriend because she dumped him for another guy.

Nope...I hope Biden doesn't actually legislate what he campaigned on.

 

[OKTexas]

All this gnashing of teeth when the solution is easy. Nominate someone the people can support.

We don't do that anymore.

We have been forced to pick from the worst of the worst

Absolutely. Hillary, Trump, Biden..........if we can't do better than this we deserve to fall apart.

We obviously can't do better.

The reason we have ignorant selfish politicians is because we have ignorant selfish voters

In part. Presidents are suppose to lead though.

Not really, the feds are supposed to do the things the States can't do alone, of course that concept was destroyed years ago, you can thank the courts for that.

.

 

[OKTexas]

Personally I think there should be some protection for the smaller states.

I don't think 4 or 5 of the most populous states should be allowed to have that kind of sway over the presidency.

And if the electoral college votes were actually cast to reflect the popular votes in each state then that would at least align the electoral and the popular votes.

Why should a minority of people control this country. Someone’s vote in Montana should not be worth 700 of mine

Why should small states have to bend over for larger states?

Why should large states have to bend over for small states?

They don't, they have more EC votes than the small States. It already takes more small States to overcome their advantage.

.

.

 

[JoeB131]

Nope...I hope Biden doesn't actually legislate what he campaigned on.

Again, Republicans bring us recessions.

Last three Republicans, all three left office with the country in recession... it's not a bug, it's a design flaw.

It's okay, though, in four or eight years, after Biden has fixed the economy like Obama and Clinton did, you guys can bring up bullshit moral issues to get stupid white people to vote against their own economic interests.

 

[OKTexas]

Darkies need to work on being more diverse like Hispanics

Shhhhhh...you're supposed to pretend that you aren't racist...

Why, you're doing enough of that for everyone.

.

 

[Pogo]

By JoeB131

The 2020 Election has proven one thing, that it is past time for America go get rid of the 18th century anachronism of the Electoral College.

The reasons that the electoral college is detrimental can be identified pretty easily.

• The presidents it chooses over the will of the people always turn out to be bad for the country. Not only the modern examples of George W. Bush (crashing the economy, getting us into a war based on lies), and Trump (the list is too long of his failings) but the earlier ones like Rutherford B. Hayes, whose administration reversed victory in the Civil War, or John Q. Adams, who corrupted congress to win. They are almost always a mistake the voters needed to correct the next election.
• It creates a false sense of mandate. Even when the people are clear in their choice, a 60/40 win like Reagan in 1984 or Nixon in 1972 appear to have a mandate with a mostly single color map when in fact there were plenty who didn’t support them.
• It makes it impossible for third parties to gain any traction. Every year, we hear about how we are “Stuck with the lesser of two evils”. American history is full of third parties that challenged the duopoly of the Democrats and Republicans, but none of them really last beyond an election cycle or two. Why? Because at the end of the day, the best they could hope for is to throw the election into Congress. Case in point, the Reform Party. Ross Perot was a bit eccentric, but he brought issues to the fore that other parties didn’t. Yet by 2000, the Reform party was done.
• At some point, it will make it impossible for the GOP to win. This is something that the GOP should consider. Texas came closer to turning blue this time than it ever has, and demographic changes will make that inevitable. Once that happens, it will be nearly impossible for the GOP to get an electoral majority, even if they win the popular vote.
• It depresses voter participation. If you didn’t live in one of the ten “Swing states”, there was really not much reason for you to come out and vote, was there? Even though 2020 was a record turnout, 80 million Americans, or about 34% of the eligible electorate, did not vote. Why should they, when they were already painting their state red or blue before a single vote was counted.
• It causes candidates to pander to the interests of small groups over the good of the country. The Cuban American community in Florida is still bitter about a revolution that happened 60 years ago, but it still factors into our politics, keeping us from normalizing relations with Cuba. Meanwhile, in Iowa, we are still spending money to subsidize ethanol nobody really wants to put in their cars. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
• It’s kind of racist. The fact that small homogenous rural states have outsized influence over diverse urban states in this system is a real problem in a country that has historically oppressed minorities. The fact is that it has contributed to the racial divide in this country, where one party has effectively become a white identity party, while the other had tied its fortunes to minority turnout.
• It is subject to a lot of potential mischief after the votes are tallied. The 2020 election itself was not in doubt. Biden won by 7 million votes. Yet we have had endless arguments about some 45,000 votes in Arizona, Georgia and Wisconsin. State Legislatures, federal and state courts, faithless electors and congress have all been called upon to change the results, calling the whole system into question.

There is a very simple solution to the problems above. Adopt a system like the French have. You have a presidential election, where if the winner gets 50%+1, he wins, but if no one clears 50%, there would be a runoff. This will allow fuller participation, allow third parties greater exposure, and at the end, we will have a president with a clear mandate for change.

You have some of the EC's flaws listed there but not all. Let's add:

• It divides the nation into artificial "red" and "blue" states, two terms which would not exist at all were it not for the Electrical College and its corrupt "winner take all" (WTA) method;
• (related to the first) It immediately tosses millions of votes directly into the shredder, even in several cases the majority of a state's vote (for example in 2016 Rump could not win even half the vote in Michigan, Wisconsin OR Pennsylvania the "Terrible Three" that enabled his perfect storm, nor could he do so in Florida, North Carolina, Arizona or even Utah ... the majority in all those states, as well as several of Clinton's, voted for somebody else and they were ignored;
• It perpetuates the Duopoly that keeps out any challengers to that Duopoly a/k/a "third" parties, ultimately leaving the electorate with a watered down choice always between TWO candidates, named "Bad" and "Worse", commonly termed "the lesser of two evils", which is why all of us have usually voted not "for" one candidate but to "block" the other one in a giant game of Tic Tac Toe;
• It's obsolete --- ALLof the reasons the EC was contrived in the first place have long since disappeared;
  • the tertiary reason was that with no mass communication, not even telegraph, with no roads and with far-flung areas of the country being weeks of travel apart, it would be difficult to know much about a contender not from one's region;
  • the secondary reason was that the common voter could be bamboozled into electing a charlatan (how'd that work out?*); and
  • the primary reason was to get the Slave Power states to join the union by bribing them with the ability to count their slaves as 3/5 of a person for purpose of apportionment, while allotting those same slaves 0/5 of a vote. Slave states ceased to exist over a century and a half ago and Slave Power went with it.

* state "faithless elector" laws have taken that individual discretion out of the Electors' hands, thus defeating the entire purpose of having proxy voters (they're thus downgraded to robots).

​

 

[OKTexas]

Darkies need to work on being more diverse like Hispanics

Shhhhhh...you're supposed to pretend that you aren't racist...

Is it racist to believe Hispanics are more diverse than blacks?

It's racist to use the term "darkies"

I think the OP used it first. Yep in post #8.

By "fake ballots", you mean, "Letting the darkies vote."

.

 

[TheGreatSatan]

Darkies need to work on being more diverse like Hispanics

Shhhhhh...you're supposed to pretend that you aren't racist...

Is it racist to believe Hispanics are more diverse than blacks?

It's racist to use the term "darkies"

I think the OP used it first. Yep in post #8.

By "fake ballots", you mean, "Letting the darkies vote."

.

You can really get a feel for how little democrats think of darkies when you watch them explain why voter ID is racist. Democrats literally believe black people are to dumb to goto the DMV. No joke.

 

[martybegan]

The Electoral College ain't going anywhere. A unanimous vote of the states to eliminate it ain't gonna happen.

You don't need a unanimous vote... You need 2/3rds of Congress and 3/4 of the states.

Or just getting enough states to sign on to the Interstate Compact.

The interstate compact is probably unconstitutional and will fall apart anyway the second a State is forced to give all their EV's to a candidate the people in it didn't vote for.

 

[OKTexas]

“The Electoral College Needs to Go”

It does.

The EC is an anachronism, fundamentally anti-democratic, and functions in a manner not consistent with the original intent of the Framers.

But it’s not going to happen.

Congressional Republicans and Republican-controlled states would never ratify such an amendment.

Republicans see the EC as instrumental in maintaining their minority rule in conjunction with their control of the Supreme Court.

Poor little commie, you wouldn't know the Framers intent if someone bitch slapped you with it.

.