The difference between anti-Zionism and criticism of Israel

[Phoenall]

This over fascination with Jews.

It's almost funny how posters devote the entirety of their postings to demonizing Jews and then immediately deny they are doing so.

Well, at least the leftist Nazis. The right wing variety are a bit more up front about it.

When these creatures get out of bed each day and immediately scour the net for their favorite hates site eager to post what they find at various discussion groups -- often to the tune of many thousands of postings -- and then demand so disingenuously that others "prove" their antisemitism, all they are actually proving is their mania, their obsession and their hatred.

These are not stable individuals, but obsessive things so far down the rabbit hole of mania that they have lost all perspective.

It's the blatant lying and historical distortions.

Such as the myth that the main cause of the Palestinian Exodus was the Arabs telling them to leave? Plenty of lies and distortions all around this conflict.

It's not a myth.

Don't know about Arab countries telling them to leave, but most of the 'Palestinians' escaped and were not expelled. Jews were in minority, what power did we have over them to expel so many of them...

According to Israeli documents, the primary reasons for the Palestinian's fleeing were not Arab states telling them to flee, that was not even in the top 3. That is the lie that is perpetrated as the established narrative.

Get it right according to one persons accounts of the Israeli documents, it is not official Israeli history.

There are far too many discrepancies for this version of yours to be true

 

[Phoenall]

Interesting Jewish view on Zionism,"Why Zionism Is Not and Never Will Be Part of My Jewish Identity"

When I was a kid, Zionism – the political ideology responsible for the development and protection of a Jewish nation-state, currently known as Israel – made sense to me...Why Zionism Is Not and Never Will Be Part of My Jewish Identity

This over fascination with Jews.

Does it matter?

Not all Zionists are Jewish and by no means are all Jewish people Zionists. Zionism and Judaism are not the same, regardles of how much Zionists try to co-opt the religion into their political agenda. Zionism is the real enemy of Jewish people.

Because it happens to be the enemy of islam and neo marxism

 

[Phoenall]

This over fascination with Jews.

It's almost funny how posters devote the entirety of their postings to demonizing Jews and then immediately deny they are doing so.

Well, at least the leftist Nazis. The right wing variety are a bit more up front about it.

When these creatures get out of bed each day and immediately scour the net for their favorite hates site eager to post what they find at various discussion groups -- often to the tune of many thousands of postings -- and then demand so disingenuously that others "prove" their antisemitism, all they are actually proving is their mania, their obsession and their hatred.

These are not stable individuals, but obsessive things so far down the rabbit hole of mania that they have lost all perspective.

It's the blatant lying and historical distortions.

Such as the myth that the main cause of the Palestinian Exodus was the Arabs telling them to leave? Plenty of lies and distortions all around this conflict.

So you are calling all the arab muslims that state on camera that they were told to leave by the arab league to be liars now.


Can you explain where the sudden influx of Palestinians appeared from in 1949 when they lost to the Jews and Israel was formed ?

 

[Phoenall]

This over fascination with Jews.

It's almost funny how posters devote the entirety of their postings to demonizing Jews and then immediately deny they are doing so.

Well, at least the leftist Nazis. The right wing variety are a bit more up front about it.

When these creatures get out of bed each day and immediately scour the net for their favorite hates site eager to post what they find at various discussion groups -- often to the tune of many thousands of postings -- and then demand so disingenuously that others "prove" their antisemitism, all they are actually proving is their mania, their obsession and their hatred.

These are not stable individuals, but obsessive things so far down the rabbit hole of mania that they have lost all perspective.

Yet, when asked to provide evidence for your claims you never can. Most people can, are you special or something with a unique ability to proclaim your warped version of "truth" but exempt from supporting it?

Supporting the Palestinian right to self determination does not equal antizionism unless it means the irradiation of Israel.

Refusing to join the anti-muslim hate wagon does not equal antisemitism.

If people devote much discussion to IP issues...does that make them all antisemitism?

Do you ever discuss the issues rather than the posters?

Self determination is not going out and stabbing children, throwing stones at unarmed civilians or firing illegal weapons at Israel. Are these not I/P issues that need to be addressed

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

You are trying to pass-off an assumption not held in evidence or fact.

If so - why is it only Israel and Jewish nationalism that is held to the fire? Why are Arab states' legitimacy not questioned but Israel's questioned?

There are Jews who legally and legitimately purchased land.

The immigration policy was not established by the people which was their right to do. It was imposed on them by the force of arms against their will.

(REFERENCE)

Article 1
The Mandatory shall have full powers of legislation and of administration, save as they may be limited by the terms of this mandate.

Article 2
The Mandatory shall be responsible for placing the country under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment of the Jewish national home, as laid down in the preamble, and the development of self-governing institutions, and also for safeguarding the civil and religious rights of all the inhabitants of Palestine, irrespective of race and religion.

Article 4
An appropriate Jewish agency shall be recognised as a public body for the purpose of advising and co-operating with the Administration of Palestine in such economic, social and other matters as may affect the establishment of the Jewish national home and the interests of the Jewish population in Palestine, and, subject always to the control of the Administration, to assist and take part in the development of the country.

Article 6
The Administration of Palestine, while ensuring that the rights and position of other sections of the population are not prejudiced, shall facilitate Jewish immigration under suitable conditions and shall encourage, in co-operation with the Jewish agency referred to in Article 4, close settlement by Jews on the land, including State lands and waste lands not required for public purposes.

(COMMENT)

Your claim is that: • the Arabs of Palestine, were the people which had the right to establish immigration policy.

I propose that the Arabs of Palestine were not given the rights and title to the territory; nor were they given the independence and sovereignty. There was no legal framework for the Arabs of Palestine to make such a claim.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

You are trying to pass-off an assumption not held in evidence or fact.

If so - why is it only Israel and Jewish nationalism that is held to the fire? Why are Arab states' legitimacy not questioned but Israel's questioned?

There are Jews who legally and legitimately purchased land.

The immigration policy was not established by the people which was their right to do. It was imposed on them by the force of arms against their will.

(REFERENCE)

Article 1
The Mandatory shall have full powers of legislation and of administration, save as they may be limited by the terms of this mandate.

Article 2
The Mandatory shall be responsible for placing the country under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment of the Jewish national home, as laid down in the preamble, and the development of self-governing institutions, and also for safeguarding the civil and religious rights of all the inhabitants of Palestine, irrespective of race and religion.

Article 4
An appropriate Jewish agency shall be recognised as a public body for the purpose of advising and co-operating with the Administration of Palestine in such economic, social and other matters as may affect the establishment of the Jewish national home and the interests of the Jewish population in Palestine, and, subject always to the control of the Administration, to assist and take part in the development of the country.

Article 6
The Administration of Palestine, while ensuring that the rights and position of other sections of the population are not prejudiced, shall facilitate Jewish immigration under suitable conditions and shall encourage, in co-operation with the Jewish agency referred to in Article 4, close settlement by Jews on the land, including State lands and waste lands not required for public purposes.

(COMMENT)

Your claim is that: • the Arabs of Palestine, were the people which had the right to establish immigration policy.

I propose that the Arabs of Palestine were not given the rights and title to the territory; nor were they given the independence and sovereignty. There was no legal framework for the Arabs of Palestine to make such a claim.

Most Respectfully,
R

I am glad that you agree with my post with one exception.
How did the Palestinians miss out on the inherent universal rights that apply to everyone else? What I see is power politics, the rule of the gun, and external interference.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

Yet, when asked to provide evidence for your claims you never can. Most people can, are you special or something with a unique ability to proclaim your warped version of "truth" but exempt from supporting it?

Supporting the Palestinian right to self determination does not equal antizionism unless it means the irradiation of Israel.

Refusing to join the anti-muslim hate wagon does not equal antisemitism.

If people devote much discussion to IP issues...does that make them all antisemitism?

Do you ever discuss the issues rather than the posters?

I always find it amusing that whenever I describe the behavior of Nazis as a diagnostic, those who most recognize themselves are quickest to respond.

As to the difference between an antisemite and one who isn't, that is always the easiest litmus test.

This projection of yours where you accuse those who do not join your little internet Jihad as being the haters is especially amusing. Your identification with Jihadists is so severe that you actually question why a genocidal mass murderer of Jews should not be considered for a Nobel Peace Prize.

Peace through genocide -- talk about an example of one who is too far down the rabbit hole to have a human perspective!

 

[Dogmaphobe]

Self determination is not going out and stabbing children, throwing stones at unarmed civilians or firing illegal weapons at Israel. Are these not I/P issues that need to be addressed

Mass murder as a "human right".

If you had asked me in 1970 how people living in this country could be so far from human as to support such a notion, I would have thought you crazy,.

It's amazing what 50 years of unrelenting Arab propaganda aimed at low achievers can accomplish. All it takes is to posit the murder of Jews as a virtue and watch as those with no moral compass whatsoever line up to do their bidding.

 

[Shusha]

Interesting Jewish view on Zionism,"Why Zionism Is Not and Never Will Be Part of My Jewish Identity"

When I was a kid, Zionism – the political ideology responsible for the development and protection of a Jewish nation-state, currently known as Israel – made sense to me...Why Zionism Is Not and Never Will Be Part of My Jewish Identity

The opinion piece makes two main points which are:

Zionism discourages Jews from participating in or identifying with broader global resistance movements and instead advocates for a focus on exclusive, insular protection at the expense of non-Jewish lives.

and

Since Israel – the geographical mecca for Jewish insularity – requires the oppression of another group of people to exist, it will never be a safe haven for anyone.


These are both ideas which fundamentally teach that the liberation movement of one particular ethnic identity is somehow DIFFERENT from other liberation movements and that this difference is harmful and should therefore be banned. The idea that one specific ethnic group -- the Jewish people -- is to be treated differently than all others is, of itself, an inherently anti-semitic idea.

 

[Shusha]

Self determination is not going out and stabbing children, throwing stones at unarmed civilians or firing illegal weapons at Israel. Are these not I/P issues that need to be addressed

Mass murder as a "human right".

If you had asked me in 1970 how people living in this country could be so far from human as to support such a notion, I would have thought you crazy,.

It's amazing what 50 years of unrelenting Arab propaganda aimed at low achievers can accomplish. All it takes is to posit the murder of Jews as a virtue and watch as those with no moral compass whatsoever line up to do their bidding.

Its like watching the lead up to the Shoah, isn't it?

 

[Coyote]

This over fascination with Jews.

It's almost funny how posters devote the entirety of their postings to demonizing Jews and then immediately deny they are doing so.

Well, at least the leftist Nazis. The right wing variety are a bit more up front about it.

When these creatures get out of bed each day and immediately scour the net for their favorite hates site eager to post what they find at various discussion groups -- often to the tune of many thousands of postings -- and then demand so disingenuously that others "prove" their antisemitism, all they are actually proving is their mania, their obsession and their hatred.

These are not stable individuals, but obsessive things so far down the rabbit hole of mania that they have lost all perspective.

It's the blatant lying and historical distortions.

Such as the myth that the main cause of the Palestinian Exodus was the Arabs telling them to leave? Plenty of lies and distortions all around this conflict.

It's not a myth.

Don't know about Arab countries telling them to leave, but most of the 'Palestinians' escaped and were not expelled. Jews were in minority, what power did we have over them to expel so many of them...

Re: Not a myth:


They left for a variety of reasons. Thousands of wealthy Arabs left in anticipation of a war, thousands more responded to Arab leaders' calls to get out of the way of the advancing armies, a handful were expelled, but most simply fled to avoid being caught in the cross fire of a battle. Had the Arabs accepted the 1947 UN Resolution, not a single Palestinian would have become a refugee, and an independent Arab state would now exist beside Israel.

The beginning of the Arab exodus can be traced to the weeks immediately following the announcement of the UN partition resolution. The first to leave were roughly 30,000 wealthy Arabs who anticipated the upcoming war and fled to neighboring Arab countries to await its end. Less affluent Arabs from the mixed cities of Palestine moved to all-Arab towns to stay with relatives or friends.

All of those who left fully anticipated being able to return to their homes after an early Arab victory, as Palestinian nationalist Aref el-Aref explained in his history of the 1948 war:

*The Arabs thought they would win in less than the twinkling of an eye and that it would take no more than a day or two from the time the Arab armies crossed the border until all the colonies were conquered and the enemy would throw down his arms and cast himself on their mercy.*

The reasons behind the exodus are multiple. For years the dominant narrative (given by the winner) was that they left because the Arab states ordered them too. Other reasons were disregarded or assigned a minor role. Why? Because it suited the winners who control the narrative and write the history. Over and over you hear it repeated - the mass exodus was mainly a result of the Arab countries ordering them to leave.

That's where the "myth" part is - "blatent lying and historical distortions", though this bit is more on the historical distortion side.

 

[Shusha]

Supporting the Palestinian right to self determination does not equal antizionism unless it means the irradiation of Israel.

This speaks to my point above in my response to Challenger's post and linked op ed.

One can support the Palestinian right to self determination and ALSO support the Jewish right to self determination and not require the oppression of one over the other. (Exception noted*).

Just so, one can support the Jewish right to self-determination and ALSO support the Palestinian right to self-determination and not require the oppression of one over the other. Its not a zero-sum game where supporting the one means the oppression of the other.

(*But since we are noting exceptions -- please note that the exception is NOT Jewish self-determination but the particular brand of Palestinian self-determination which denies and rejects Jewish self-determination and does actually seek to oppress and prevent Jewish self-determination on lands which have ancestral, historical and religious value to the Jewish people. Its another odd reversal where Zionism is labelled as oppressive, while it is actually only the Palestinians calling for exclusive access to lands and holy sites -- at the expense (oppression) of the Jewish people).

 

[Coyote]

Yet, when asked to provide evidence for your claims you never can. Most people can, are you special or something with a unique ability to proclaim your warped version of "truth" but exempt from supporting it?

Supporting the Palestinian right to self determination does not equal antizionism unless it means the irradiation of Israel.

Refusing to join the anti-muslim hate wagon does not equal antisemitism.

If people devote much discussion to IP issues...does that make them all antisemitism?

Do you ever discuss the issues rather than the posters?

I always find it amusing that whenever I describe the behavior of Nazis as a diagnostic, those who most recognize themselves are quickest to respond.

As to the difference between an antisemite and one who isn't, that is always the easiest litmus test.

This projection of yours where you accuse those who do not join your little internet Jihad as being the haters is especially amusing. Your identification with Jihadists is so severe that you actually question why a genocidal mass murderer of Jews should not be considered for a Nobel Peace Prize.

Peace through genocide -- talk about an example of one who is too far down the rabbit hole to have a human perspective!

So I'm sure you can link to my many "anti-semitic" postings? Probably not, since you you habitually take things out of context in order to attack other members.

Is it anti-semitic to support Palestinian rights to autonomy?
Is it anti-semitic to oppose blind hatred and broadbrushing of entire groups?
Is it anti-semitic to support both a Palestinian state and a Jewish state?


Maybe you should just go and emulate your stated hero and electrocute some dogs. You're probably good at it.

 

[Coyote]

Supporting the Palestinian right to self determination does not equal antizionism unless it means the irradiation of Israel.

This speaks to my point above in my response to Challenger's post and linked op ed.

One can support the Palestinian right to self determination and ALSO support the Jewish right to self determination and not require the oppression of one over the other. (Exception noted*).

Just so, one can support the Jewish right to self-determination and ALSO support the Palestinian right to self-determination and not require the oppression of one over the other. Its not a zero-sum game where supporting the one means the oppression of the other.

Absolutely agree...

(*But since we are noting exceptions -- please note that the exception is NOT Jewish self-determination but the particular brand of Palestinian self-determination which denies and rejects Jewish self-determination and does actually seek to oppress and prevent Jewish self-determination on lands which have ancestral, historical and religious value to the Jewish people. Its another odd reversal where Zionism is labelled as oppressive, while it is actually only the Palestinians calling for exclusive access to lands and holy sites -- at the expense (oppression) of the Jewish people).

That seems ok - but, what happens when Jewish self-determination seeks to opress and prevent Palestinian self-determination on lands which have ancestral value to the Palestinian people?

 

[Coyote]

Self determination is not going out and stabbing children, throwing stones at unarmed civilians or firing illegal weapons at Israel. Are these not I/P issues that need to be addressed

Mass murder as a "human right".

If you had asked me in 1970 how people living in this country could be so far from human as to support such a notion, I would have thought you crazy,.

It's amazing what 50 years of unrelenting Arab propaganda aimed at low achievers can accomplish. All it takes is to posit the murder of Jews as a virtue and watch as those with no moral compass whatsoever line up to do their bidding.

Its like watching the lead up to the Shoah, isn't it?

Who here has EVER claimed mass murder as a human right? Who?

 

[Coyote]

Yet, when asked to provide evidence for your claims you never can. Most people can, are you special or something with a unique ability to proclaim your warped version of "truth" but exempt from supporting it?

Supporting the Palestinian right to self determination does not equal antizionism unless it means the irradiation of Israel.

Refusing to join the anti-muslim hate wagon does not equal antisemitism.

If people devote much discussion to IP issues...does that make them all antisemitism?

Do you ever discuss the issues rather than the posters?

I always find it amusing that whenever I describe the behavior of Nazis as a diagnostic, those who most recognize themselves are quickest to respond.

As to the difference between an antisemite and one who isn't, that is always the easiest litmus test.

This projection of yours where you accuse those who do not join your little internet Jihad as being the haters is especially amusing. Your identification with Jihadists is so severe that you actually question why a genocidal mass murderer of Jews should not be considered for a Nobel Peace Prize.

Peace through genocide -- talk about an example of one who is too far down the rabbit hole to have a human perspective!

WHERE have I ever supported genocide?

 

[Dogmaphobe]

Those who fled did so for a variety of reasons, true, but the overriding factor was that they were more loyal to the Nazi al Husseini clan than they were the more moderate Nabashiki clan, and were openly hostile to Jews and the establishment of an Israel state in which they were invited to participate freely. They either left at the behest of Arab leadership, left because they were leaving the area to make way for Arab armies or left because they were enemy combatants involved in hostilities.

The moderate and more peaceful Arabs remained in Israel, which now contains over 1 1/2 million of their descendants.

Interestingly enough, a LARGER number of Jews were kicked out of Arab lands. Somehow, the antisemites all fail to acknowledge this fact as they are only interested in persecuting Jews.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

Who here has EVER claimed mass murder as a human right? Who?

all those claim that Arabs mass murdering Jews is a legitimate product of some sort of "liberation" movement or who rationalize such actions within the context of human rights.

Take this Coyote chick, for instance.........

 

[Coyote]

Who here has EVER claimed mass murder as a human right? Who?

all those claim that Arabs mass murdering Jews is a legitimate product of some sort of "liberation" movement or who rationalize such actions within the context of human rights.

Take this Coyote chick, for instance.........

You can't answer a simple question?

Where have I ever claimed mass murder as a human right?

I'll add one more:

Where I have I ever claimed that targeting and killing civilians is in anyway legitimate or a legitimate product of a "liberation" movement?

It should be easy for you to come up with a link since you claim I post thousands....

 

[Phoenall]

P F Tinmore, et al,

You are trying to pass-off an assumption not held in evidence or fact.

If so - why is it only Israel and Jewish nationalism that is held to the fire? Why are Arab states' legitimacy not questioned but Israel's questioned?

There are Jews who legally and legitimately purchased land.

The immigration policy was not established by the people which was their right to do. It was imposed on them by the force of arms against their will.

(REFERENCE)

Article 1
The Mandatory shall have full powers of legislation and of administration, save as they may be limited by the terms of this mandate.

Article 2
The Mandatory shall be responsible for placing the country under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment of the Jewish national home, as laid down in the preamble, and the development of self-governing institutions, and also for safeguarding the civil and religious rights of all the inhabitants of Palestine, irrespective of race and religion.

Article 4
An appropriate Jewish agency shall be recognised as a public body for the purpose of advising and co-operating with the Administration of Palestine in such economic, social and other matters as may affect the establishment of the Jewish national home and the interests of the Jewish population in Palestine, and, subject always to the control of the Administration, to assist and take part in the development of the country.

Article 6
The Administration of Palestine, while ensuring that the rights and position of other sections of the population are not prejudiced, shall facilitate Jewish immigration under suitable conditions and shall encourage, in co-operation with the Jewish agency referred to in Article 4, close settlement by Jews on the land, including State lands and waste lands not required for public purposes.

(COMMENT)

Your claim is that: • the Arabs of Palestine, were the people which had the right to establish immigration policy.

I propose that the Arabs of Palestine were not given the rights and title to the territory; nor were they given the independence and sovereignty. There was no legal framework for the Arabs of Palestine to make such a claim.

Most Respectfully,
R

I am glad that you agree with my post with one exception.
How did the Palestinians miss out on the inherent universal rights that apply to everyone else? What I see is power politics, the rule of the gun, and external interference.

They didn't, they refused to accept the universal rights as it would mean having to give up aid. Yes the other islamonazi states want to interfere all the time and rule all of the M.E. with the gun.


You misunderstand again that the arab muslims have no legal right to the land they are claiming