CDZ The Confederate (Rebel) Flag

[Flopper]

Some use it for hatred, some just for Southern Pride.

Pride in what?

Slavery
Treason
Reconstruction atrocities and lynchings
Jim Crow
Segregation

Do Germans use the Nazi flag for German pride?

In the modern day, it's just a symbol for being proud of living in the South. The South (now, in modern times) actually is persecuted for being "backward" and being "redneckish" - it's just a representation for being proud to live here in spite of the current intolerance toward many Southerners with more old fashioned and traditional ways. Not those things you listed people don't think about that when they purchase a Rebel Flag.

I think it used to a symbol of pride for living in the south, lifestyle, cooking, various culture and traditions - however in recent years the real direct historical associations of the flag with so many atrocities and negative aspects of southern history has led many southerners to move on and find a new way to be proud and celebrate the American South. But some remain stubborn.

As the South becomes more diverse and enlightened about their own history and where many traditions and sayings actually come from (their dialect is a product of black slave children playing with the children of their white masters) the South must put the Confederate flag in proper historical perspective and stop stubbornly clinging to the notion of harmless "southern pride".

There is really nothing directly associated with that flag, historically speaking, that one should be proud of. Things such as cooking and any non-slave economic or industrial advances would only use the southern flag in the loosest of associations--perhaps to attract the more backwards thinking crowd.

... then we're left with the issue of the right to display it ...

No, just because we don't like it doesn't mean we make it illegal. We just make it social unacceptable.

 

[Pogo]

As the South becomes more diverse and enlightened about their own history and where many traditions and sayings actually come from (their dialect is a product of black slave children playing with the children of their white masters)

Where are you people pulling this horseshit from? This is the second poster I've seen in the past week suggest that the Southern dialect (as if that's a "single" thing, which it isn't) was formed out of slave speech. Which is absolute bullshit. Language doesn't work like that. It formed out of English -- period. African slaves would simply learn the English that was available to them.

 

[Pogo]

Some use it for hatred, some just for Southern Pride.

Pride in what?

Slavery
Treason
Reconstruction atrocities and lynchings
Jim Crow
Segregation

Do Germans use the Nazi flag for German pride?

In the modern day, it's just a symbol for being proud of living in the South. The South (now, in modern times) actually is persecuted for being "backward" and being "redneckish" - it's just a representation for being proud to live here in spite of the current intolerance toward many Southerners with more old fashioned and traditional ways. Not those things you listed people don't think about that when they purchase a Rebel Flag.

I think it used to a symbol of pride for living in the south, lifestyle, cooking, various culture and traditions - however in recent years the real direct historical associations of the flag with so many atrocities and negative aspects of southern history has led many southerners to move on and find a new way to be proud and celebrate the American South. But some remain stubborn.

As the South becomes more diverse and enlightened about their own history and where many traditions and sayings actually come from (their dialect is a product of black slave children playing with the children of their white masters) the South must put the Confederate flag in proper historical perspective and stop stubbornly clinging to the notion of harmless "southern pride".

There is really nothing directly associated with that flag, historically speaking, that one should be proud of. Things such as cooking and any non-slave economic or industrial advances would only use the southern flag in the loosest of associations--perhaps to attract the more backwards thinking crowd.

... then we're left with the issue of the right to display it ...

No, just because we don't like it doesn't mean we make it illegal. We just make it social unacceptable.

Bingo. That's what I keep saying about the gun fetishism -- make it uncool.

That's how you effect social change; we did it with tobacco and we're in the process of doing it with racism.

 

[JakeStarkey]

There are more hateful people living under the star and crescent than ever lived under the Stars and Bars.

I think it's important in CDZ to backup any emphatic statements with proof.

And since you're talking about a symbol that is used on many national flags, you may be correct in terms of numbers -- there are more muslim extremists in the entire world than bigots still living in the Southern United States. That shows we've made some progress since the 1960's.

However if you were make an accurate comparison with a country (a legitimate Muslim nation-state) that matches the current souther states population, you would never be able to back up your statement as the extremist percentage is just too low.

As for the rest of your post, I live in the South, sir. There are more racists in Connecticut where I grew up, than in Alabama.

Merely your opinion, I point out. I hope your fair part of the state is as you believe, but I suggest you go up to Phenix City for a look about.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Numbers would be impossible to provide, so my life experience would be all I can offer.

Perhaps you can offer proof of our contention?

Thank you for admitting that point.

 

[Bonzi]

That's how you effect social change; we did it with tobacco and we're in the process of doing it with racism.

I think tobacco is making a comeback, but, it will never be allowed back in restaurants etc.

 

[ABikerSailor]

You know...............I've lived all up and down the East Coast from Florida to Rhode Island, and a few points in between like Virginia. I was also stationed in Tennessee and in Mississippi.

Out of all the places I've lived, the 2 most racist were Tennessee and Mississippi with Florida coming in a close third.

In Mississippi, myself and a friend of mine were IN A NAVY UNIFORM, and we tried to go to a bar in Meridian called "Pott's Place", where they had some pretty good rock and roll. I'm white, my friend's black, and the doorman let me through, but he stopped my friend (by placing an axe handle across his chest), and told me "the ****** ain't allowed in". I then told him that we were both in the Navy, defending his country, and we were told it didn't matter, no "darkies" were allowed in as it was a whites only bar.

In Tennessee, while stationed in Millington, I lived in a place just north of Millington called Tipton County. They used to have signs on the county line telling blacks to not be in that county after sunset.

In Florida? I saw a riot happen on a beach in the northern part of Jacksonville, just because some whites didn't want blacks on their part of the beach.

Never saw things like that happen anywhere I was stationed in the north like Rhode Island and Conneticut.

 

[Flopper]

You know...............I've lived all up and down the East Coast from Florida to Rhode Island, and a few points in between like Virginia. I was also stationed in Tennessee and in Mississippi.

Out of all the places I've lived, the 2 most racist were Tennessee and Mississippi with Florida coming in a close third.

In Mississippi, myself and a friend of mine were IN A NAVY UNIFORM, and we tried to go to a bar in Meridian called "Pott's Place", where they had some pretty good rock and roll. I'm white, my friend's black, and the doorman let me through, but he stopped my friend (by placing an axe handle across his chest), and told me "the ****** ain't allowed in". I then told him that we were both in the Navy, defending his country, and we were told it didn't matter, no "darkies" were allowed in as it was a whites only bar.

In Tennessee, while stationed in Millington, I lived in a place just north of Millington called Tipton County. They used to have signs on the county line telling blacks to not be in that county after sunset.

In Florida? I saw a riot happen on a beach in the northern part of Jacksonville, just because some whites didn't want blacks on their part of the beach.

Never saw things like that happen anywhere I was stationed in the north like Rhode Island and Conneticut.

Racial hatred is passed down from father to son generation after generation. Passing a law doesn't change that. In some respects it makes it worse. For over a hundred years in the South, no matter how poor a white person might be he could always take comfort in the fact he wasn't a n*gger. With desegregation and civil rights, blacks began taking jobs away from poor whites, sending their kids to their school, and worst of all they were no longer subservient which pissed off a lot of poor white people.

 

[my2¢]

I view the Confederate Stars and Bars as a salute to a failed separatist movement, which as an outsider I don't try to judge.

 

[quorthon]

Using Confederate flag is not offensive today. It's just silly. Because it means almost nothing today.

 

[Correll]

You know...............I've lived all up and down the East Coast from Florida to Rhode Island, and a few points in between like Virginia. I was also stationed in Tennessee and in Mississippi.

Out of all the places I've lived, the 2 most racist were Tennessee and Mississippi with Florida coming in a close third.

In Mississippi, myself and a friend of mine were IN A NAVY UNIFORM, and we tried to go to a bar in Meridian called "Pott's Place", where they had some pretty good rock and roll. I'm white, my friend's black, and the doorman let me through, but he stopped my friend (by placing an axe handle across his chest), and told me "the ****** ain't allowed in". I then told him that we were both in the Navy, defending his country, and we were told it didn't matter, no "darkies" were allowed in as it was a whites only bar.

In Tennessee, while stationed in Millington, I lived in a place just north of Millington called Tipton County. They used to have signs on the county line telling blacks to not be in that county after sunset.

In Florida? I saw a riot happen on a beach in the northern part of Jacksonville, just because some whites didn't want blacks on their part of the beach.

Never saw things like that happen anywhere I was stationed in the north like Rhode Island and Conneticut.

A notice a distinct lack of dates with these stories.

 

[Correll]

It's an harmless symbol of regional heritage and pride.

 

[Bush92]

Not offensive. Represents a major part of American history when the divisions at the 1787 Constitutional Convention were finally settled.

 

[Flopper]

Not offensive. Represents a major part of American history when the divisions at the 1787 Constitutional Convention were finally settled.

The systematic genocide of native Americans was also a major part of American history, but that doesn't make it inoffensive to their descendants.

 

[Liminal]

Not offensive. Represents a major part of American history when the divisions at the 1787 Constitutional Convention were finally settled.

The systematic genocide of native Americans was also a major part of American history, but that doesn't make it inoffensive to their descendants.

Then you should be equally offended by the founding fathers of this nation, since they created a slave republic.

 

[Flopper]

Not offensive. Represents a major part of American history when the divisions at the 1787 Constitutional Convention were finally settled.

The systematic genocide of native Americans was also a major part of American history, but that doesn't make it inoffensive to their descendants.

Then you should be equally offended by the founding fathers of this nation, since they created a slave republic.

I find it offensive but not equally.

 

[Liminal]

Not offensive. Represents a major part of American history when the divisions at the 1787 Constitutional Convention were finally settled.

The systematic genocide of native Americans was also a major part of American history, but that doesn't make it inoffensive to their descendants.

Then you should be equally offended by the founding fathers of this nation, since they created a slave republic.

I find it offensive but not equally.

Why is it better? How is it different? The founding fathers created the conditions for civil war.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

The Confederate Flag is only offensive to the ignorant. Those that believe the Civil War was about slavery when in fact it was about money. The North had their share of slaves and most southern whites didn't even own slaves.

But I digress, it's a waste of time expecting the ignorant to educate themselves.

 

[Josf]

If someone thinks that the "founding fathers" were one group of like minded monopolists then someone is either ignorant or giving that falsehood unearned credit.

It was well known that a voluntary federation works for mutual defense (as the United States of America was at the time of a Declaration of Independence) and as such there could be no civil war since any people in any state could pay for and be a part of the voluntary federation or any people in any state could secede from, unjoin, not be a part of, and not pay for said voluntary mutual defense association, which was perpetually voluntary as such: a voluntary association.

The criminal take over of the voluntary federation ensured that there would be a civil war and that too was known and spelled out, and published in the papers that were not monopolized by the criminals at that time.

Example:
AntiFederalist Papers Paper 3 Freedom Documents

"Whether national government will be productive of internal peace, is too uncertain to admit of decided opinion. I only hazard a conjecture when I say, that our state disputes, in a confederacy, would be disputes of levity and passion, which would subside before injury. The people being free, government having no right to them, but they to government, they would separate and divide as interest or inclination prompted-as they do at this day, and always have done, in Switzerland. In a national government, unless cautiously and fortunately administered, the disputes will be the deep-rooted differences of interest, where part of the empire must be injured by the operation of general law; and then should the sword of government be once drawn (which Heaven avert) I fear it will not be sheathed, until we have waded through that series of desolation, which France, Spain, and the other great kingdoms of the world have suffered, in order to bring so many separate States into uniformity, of government and law; in which event the legislative power can only be entrusted to one man (as it is with them) who can have no local attachments, partial interests, or private views to gratify."

On one side of the so called "founders" monopoly were criminals with intimate ties to the British Monarchy through central banking fraud and slave trading profits. On the other side of the so called "founders" monopoly were home grown criminals whose local versions of criminal central banking fraud and fraudulently subsidized slave labor camps invested stolen loot into maintaining home grown monopolies.

Those two sides of that false federal Empire coin were behind the fraudulent criminal take-over of the working federation that lasted from at least 1776 to 1787.

The other side of life, the moral side, was founded by the other founders who were very much against the "national debt" scam driving the false federalists.

At least the good guys amended the criminal constitution, not soon enough however, since the criminals enforced their criminal Judiciary Act before the Bill of Rights was acknowledged as a representation of the law of the land.

 

[PredFan]

Offensive or not?

Why?