The Confederacy and States' Rights

[Kevin_Kennedy]

America has never believed in self-deteremination for anyone but America. Look at VietNam, where we stepped in to crush the populary revollution shortly after they threw off the chains of French Colonialism, all in the name of 'defeating Communism'.

We supported the states that seceded from the Soviet Union.

 

[JBeukema]

America has never believed in self-deteremination for anyone but America. Look at VietNam, where we stepped in to crush the populary revollution shortly after they threw off the chains of French Colonialism, all in the name of 'defeating Communism'.

We supported the states that seceded from the Soviet Union.

We refused to supprt their right to self-determination whenever it wasn't our system or in our interest. Justr like Central America. See: banana republics; Cuba, Batista...

We also support the tyranny of the Czar when the Red Revolution began.

It's far easier to fight for principles than to live up to them'
-Alfred Adler

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

America has never believed in self-deteremination for anyone but America. Look at VietNam, where we stepped in to crush the populary revollution shortly after they threw off the chains of French Colonialism, all in the name of 'defeating Communism'.

We supported the states that seceded from the Soviet Union.

We refused to supprt their right to self-determination whenever it wasn't our system or in our interest. Justr like Central America. See: banana republics; Cuba, Batista...

We also support the tyranny of the Czar when the Red Revolution began.

It's far easier to fight for principles than to live up to them'
-Alfred Adler

Good point. Well, we supported their right to secede from the Soviet Union at any rate.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

So once again we get to hear from the people that think somehow fighting to keep slavery was a States right. That enslavement of other people was a right the States should be able to keep.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

So once again we get to hear from the people that think somehow fighting to keep slavery was a States right. That enslavement of other people was a right the States should be able to keep.

The southern states fought for their independence. To say that they fought to defend slavery would be saying that the northern states were fighting to end slavery, which is absolutely not the case whatsoever.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Well, my great grandfather fought on the side that won, and decided the legality of that issue. The Civil War is over and done with. We decided that the United States was what the name said. Time to move on to today's issues, like a health care system that gives us what we pay for. Issues like energy independence. Issues like dealing with the warming world. Issues of asymetric warfare as practiced by various religious or ideological groups.

The war didn't decide the legality of anything concerning states' rights. Notice the Constitution was never amended to change states' rights or make secession illegal. One can discuss history and current events. If you see no reason to discuss the issue then there was no reason to respond.

The states joined the union agreeing to abide by the Constitution. The Constitution prohibits states from making laws that conflict with federal law for starters.

 

[NYcarbineer]

I agree with you, KK. Lincoln was committed to the Union, period. I think the South had the right to secede, I think some of the Founders thinking was wrong, and I think Lincoln fixed all of that it by telling the secessionists, "No, over your dead bodies!" and preceded to kill them. Good!

Yeah, it's worked out wonderfully. The Fed govt has steadily encroached into every facet of our lives and usurped any powers the Constitution gives the states it so desires. Little good has come of that.

The defeat of the Confederate War for Independence was the beginning of the end of the united States as envisioned by the FF and written into the Constitution.

The founding fathers envisioned an eventual breakup of the United States into two or more nations?

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Well, my great grandfather fought on the side that won, and decided the legality of that issue. The Civil War is over and done with. We decided that the United States was what the name said. Time to move on to today's issues, like a health care system that gives us what we pay for. Issues like energy independence. Issues like dealing with the warming world. Issues of asymetric warfare as practiced by various religious or ideological groups.

The war didn't decide the legality of anything concerning states' rights. Notice the Constitution was never amended to change states' rights or make secession illegal. One can discuss history and current events. If you see no reason to discuss the issue then there was no reason to respond.

The states joined the union agreeing to abide by the Constitution. The Constitution prohibits states from making laws that conflict with federal law for starters.

Not true at all. The Supremacy Clause only applies to those laws which the government is enacting in accord with the Constitution, but the majority of federal laws are unconstitutional. Since the Constitution doesn't prohibit secession then secession is clearly a legitimate power of the states.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Yeah, it's worked out wonderfully. The Fed govt has steadily encroached into every facet of our lives and usurped any powers the Constitution gives the states it so desires. Little good has come of that.

The defeat of the Confederate War for Independence was the beginning of the end of the united States as envisioned by the FF and written into the Constitution.

The founding fathers envisioned an eventual breakup of the United States into two or more nations?

“The indissoluble link of union between the people of the several states of this confederated nation is, after all, not in the right but in the heart. If the day should come (may Heaven avert it!) when the affections of the people of these States shall be alienated from each other; when the fraternal spirit shall give way to cold indifference, or collision of interests shall fester into hatred, the bands of political associations will not long hold together parties no longer attracted by the magnetism of conciliated interests or kindly sympathies; and far better will it be for the people of the disunited states to part in friendship from each other, than to be held together by constraint.” – John Quincy Adams

“Whether we remain in one confederacy, or form into Atlantic and Mississippi confederacies, I believe not very important to the happiness of either part. Those of the western confederacy will be as much our children & descendants as those of the eastern, and I feel myself as much identified with that country, in future time, as with this; and did I now foresee a separation at some future day, yet I should feel the duty & the desire to promote the western interests as zealously as the eastern, doing all the good for both portions of our future family which should fall within my power.” – Thomas Jefferson

As you can see, the founders thought it better to peacefully separate than to be bound together by force.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

So once again we get to hear from the people that think somehow fighting to keep slavery was a States right. That enslavement of other people was a right the States should be able to keep.

The southern states fought for their independence. To say that they fought to defend slavery would be saying that the northern states were fighting to end slavery, which is absolutely not the case whatsoever.

Complete and utter BULLSHIT. The South withdrew from the Union because OF SLAVERY. They claimed Lincoln would somehow magically abolish it. THAT was the entire reason for the war. The only State Right that they were worried about was the right to keep slaves.

You delusional idiots amaze me to no end.

 

[JBeukema]

So once again we get to hear from the people that think somehow fighting to keep slavery was a States right. That enslavement of other people was a right the States should be able to keep.

The southern states fought for their independence. To say that they fought to defend slavery would be saying that the northern states were fighting to end slavery, which is absolutely not the case whatsoever.

Complete and utter BULLSHIT. The South withdrew from the Union because OF SLAVERY. They claimed Lincoln would somehow magically abolish it. THAT was the entire reason for the war. The only State Right that they were worried about was the right to keep slaves.

You delusional idiots amaze me to no end.

Slavery was a convenient catch-all that touched on all the underlying issues. It was not slavery itself that was contested, but the abuse of power by the fed, the powers being coalesced in DC, the control of the union by powerful businessmen...

 

[RetiredGySgt]

The southern states fought for their independence. To say that they fought to defend slavery would be saying that the northern states were fighting to end slavery, which is absolutely not the case whatsoever.

Complete and utter BULLSHIT. The South withdrew from the Union because OF SLAVERY. They claimed Lincoln would somehow magically abolish it. THAT was the entire reason for the war. The only State Right that they were worried about was the right to keep slaves.

You delusional idiots amaze me to no end.

Slavery was a convenient catch-all that touched on all the underlying issues. It was not slavery itself that was contested, but the abuse of power by the fed, the powers being coalesced in DC, the control of the union by powerful businessmen...

Except for that little minor detail that the Congress and the Courts ALL backed up the Souths right to slavery, I mean lets just ignore that little fact. The Federal Government passed laws and affirmed those laws in the Supreme Court ALWAYS in favor of the SOUTH. The only oppression was on the Northern non slaves states FORCED by law and the Federal Government to honor the rights of slave owners. FORCED by law to return men and women and children to slavery. Even though slavery was ILLEGAL in those Northern States.

The ONLY issue that drove the South out was slavery and the idiotic fear that all of a sudden the Government was gonna back track on its commitment to honor the South's supposed right to slavery. You may want to actually look up the articles draw up by the radical Southern States, they list as the reason for leaving the threat to their right to ENSLAVE other men, women and children.

 

[JBeukema]

You already tried this once before, and your assertions were dismantled by the very people in this thread, and by others. Your nearsightedness is apparent once again, as you are unable to grasp anything beyond the superficial.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

You already tried this once before, and your assertions were dismantled by the very people in this thread, and by others. Your nearsightedness is apparent once again, as you are unable to grasp anything beyond the superficial.

Ya cause I am not right. Go ahead tell us all about the Supreme Court ruling against Slavery. Tell us about how the Federal Government did not repeatedly make agreements to allow a Slave state for every free state.

The only superficial fool here is you.

 

[NYcarbineer]

The war didn't decide the legality of anything concerning states' rights. Notice the Constitution was never amended to change states' rights or make secession illegal. One can discuss history and current events. If you see no reason to discuss the issue then there was no reason to respond.

The states joined the union agreeing to abide by the Constitution. The Constitution prohibits states from making laws that conflict with federal law for starters.

Not true at all. The Supremacy Clause only applies to those laws which the government is enacting in accord with the Constitution, but the majority of federal laws are unconstitutional. Since the Constitution doesn't prohibit secession then secession is clearly a legitimate power of the states.

The states under the Constitution don't have the authority to decide which laws are or aren't constitutional. If a state thinks a law is unconstitutional their constitutional recourse is to challenge it in the courts, not secede.

Secession is prohibited de facto because secession requires breaking federal laws.

 

[NYcarbineer]

So once again we get to hear from the people that think somehow fighting to keep slavery was a States right. That enslavement of other people was a right the States should be able to keep.

The southern states fought for their independence. To say that they fought to defend slavery would be saying that the northern states were fighting to end slavery, which is absolutely not the case whatsoever.

Complete and utter BULLSHIT. The South withdrew from the Union because OF SLAVERY. They claimed Lincoln would somehow magically abolish it. THAT was the entire reason for the war. The only State Right that they were worried about was the right to keep slaves.

You delusional idiots amaze me to no end.

Of course. Simple (rhetorical) question. If secession wasn't about slavery, how was it that only slave states seceded? Some sort of extraordinary coincidence?

 

[editec]

Thank GOD and Lincoln that the vile slavers were crushed.

 

[JBeukema]

The states joined the union agreeing to abide by the Constitution. The Constitution prohibits states from making laws that conflict with federal law for starters.

Not true at all. The Supremacy Clause only applies to those laws which the government is enacting in accord with the Constitution, but the majority of federal laws are unconstitutional. Since the Constitution doesn't prohibit secession then secession is clearly a legitimate power of the states.

The states under the Constitution don't have the authority to decide which laws are or aren't constitutional. If a state thinks a law is unconstitutional their constitutional recourse is to challenge it in the courts, not secede.

Secession is prohibited de facto because secession requires breaking federal laws.

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

That includes the right to tell the fed to fuck off and die. Only slaves are denied the right to leave. The right to secede is summed up in the need to refresh the tree of liberty with the blood of patriots and tyrants.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

So once again we get to hear from the people that think somehow fighting to keep slavery was a States right. That enslavement of other people was a right the States should be able to keep.

The southern states fought for their independence. To say that they fought to defend slavery would be saying that the northern states were fighting to end slavery, which is absolutely not the case whatsoever.

Complete and utter BULLSHIT. The South withdrew from the Union because OF SLAVERY. They claimed Lincoln would somehow magically abolish it. THAT was the entire reason for the war. The only State Right that they were worried about was the right to keep slaves.

You delusional idiots amaze me to no end.

They also left the Union for the high tariffs that Lincoln promised to enact, which is why he had absolutely no support in the south and high support in states like Pennsylvania. However, we're not talking about why they seceded. You said they fought for slavery, which is not the case. They fought for their independence. One of the reasons they seceded was slavery, though not the only reason. However, they intended to secede peacefully. It was Lincoln that made that impossible.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

The states joined the union agreeing to abide by the Constitution. The Constitution prohibits states from making laws that conflict with federal law for starters.

Not true at all. The Supremacy Clause only applies to those laws which the government is enacting in accord with the Constitution, but the majority of federal laws are unconstitutional. Since the Constitution doesn't prohibit secession then secession is clearly a legitimate power of the states.

The states under the Constitution don't have the authority to decide which laws are or aren't constitutional. If a state thinks a law is unconstitutional their constitutional recourse is to challenge it in the courts, not secede.

Secession is prohibited de facto because secession requires breaking federal laws.

The Constitution does not deny the states the right to do so, therefore they have the right under the 10th Amendment. The system of federalism set up by the founders wasn't meant to favor the federal government by giving it a monopoly on deciding what is and what is not constitutional. Why would the founders, who feared a powerful central government and believed in the sovereignty of the states, give such a power to the federal government? They wouldn't, and they didn't.

No, secession does not require breaking any federal laws. It requires that the states take back the powers that they ceded to the federal government in accepting the Constitution.