The Confederacy and States' Rights

[Kevin_Kennedy]

This thread is in response to an off-topic discussion in a thread on Israel's right to exist.

Kevin_Kennedy: The Confederate States were well within their rights to secede from the Union. It was Lincoln that was wrong by invading them and forcing them back into a Union against their free will.

You are 100% right the South had a right to secede, and we are so fortunate that AL smash mouthed them and knee dropped them, breaking the collective back of states' rights. Thank God for Lincoln. If the Founders had it wrong on that issue, so be it.

The founders didn't have it wrong on that issue, Lincoln did. He destroyed states' rights and set us up for the gargantuan state we live under today.

The industrial revolution was already well on its way to eroding states' rights. That would have happened with or without Lincoln. It's also unlikely that a confederate South could have survived independently for very long.

I see no reason why the industrial revolution would have eroded states' rights, so I'll need you to clarify that position. As to the south not being able to survive independently, they certainly thought they were able to. They also did it successfully for the duration of the Civil War. Regardless of whether they could or not, it was their decision to make and Lincoln had no right to use force to make that decision for them.

 

[Old Rocks]

Well, my great grandfather fought on the side that won, and decided the legality of that issue. The Civil War is over and done with. We decided that the United States was what the name said. Time to move on to today's issues, like a health care system that gives us what we pay for. Issues like energy independence. Issues like dealing with the warming world. Issues of asymetric warfare as practiced by various religious or ideological groups.

 

[Centrism'sVoice]

I see no reason why the industrial revolution would have eroded states' rights, so I'll need you to clarify that position.

Interstate commerce was exploding, and a number of people had a major stake in keeping its rules uniform. Just look at the railroads.

As to the south not being able to survive independently, they certainly thought they were able to. They also did it successfully for the duration of the Civil War.

Not very well: the lack of manufacturing infrastructure doomed them from the beginning.

Regardless of whether they could or not, it was their decision to make and Lincoln had no right to use force to make that decision for them.

Very few governments would allow a portion of their country to secede peacefully, unless the central government were so weak that it simply couldn't stop it. I don't see how you determine that the use of force was governed by any kind of "rights" issue: you'll need to elaborate on that.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Well, my great grandfather fought on the side that won, and decided the legality of that issue. The Civil War is over and done with. We decided that the United States was what the name said. Time to move on to today's issues, like a health care system that gives us what we pay for. Issues like energy independence. Issues like dealing with the warming world. Issues of asymetric warfare as practiced by various religious or ideological groups.

The war didn't decide the legality of anything concerning states' rights. Notice the Constitution was never amended to change states' rights or make secession illegal. One can discuss history and current events. If you see no reason to discuss the issue then there was no reason to respond.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

I see no reason why the industrial revolution would have eroded states' rights, so I'll need you to clarify that position.

Interstate commerce was exploding, and a number of people had a major stake in keeping its rules uniform. Just look at the railroads.

As to the south not being able to survive independently, they certainly thought they were able to. They also did it successfully for the duration of the Civil War.

Not very well: the lack of manufacturing infrastructure doomed them from the beginning.

Regardless of whether they could or not, it was their decision to make and Lincoln had no right to use force to make that decision for them.

Very few governments would allow a portion of their country to secede peacefully, unless the central government were so weak that it simply couldn't stop it. I don't see how you determine that the use of force was governed by any kind of "rights" issue: you'll need to elaborate on that.

Interstate commerce wouldn't have been effected by states' rights as the Constitution gives the authority to regulate interstate commerce to the federal government. Had there been any discrepancies the federal government would have sought to change them.

Yet they were advancing towards more manufacturing. Prominent Confederates Jefferson Davis and Robert E. Lee both expected that slavery would soon fall under it's own weight by simply not being economical, which is the same way it was ended in many of the northern states.

However, the United States never was one central nation with one part simply wanting to break away. The United States was comprised of individual sovereign states that came together and formed a federal government to act as their agent, not a national government to act as their oppressor. Secession is a legitimate right of the states. The Constitution doesn't forbid them to secede from the Union, therefore they have the right to do so. Also, upon ratification Virginia, New York, and Rhode Island all reserved the right to leave the Union if they felt it became tyrannical.

 

[Old Rocks]

LOL. Well, we are the United States of America. However much you might not like that, that is how it is. I have worn the uniform of this nation, I do not intend to see it descend into a set of Balkan states. I am sure that there are many that I normally cross swords with in the liberal versus conservative political debate that see the issue exactly the same as I do.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

LOL. Well, we are the United States of America. However much you might not like that, that is how it is. I have worn the uniform of this nation, I do not intend to see it descend into a set of Balkan states. I am sure that there are many that I normally cross swords with in the liberal versus conservative political debate that see the issue exactly the same as I do.

Yes, we are the U.S.A., and the right to self-government is probably the most American of principles. Lincoln destroyed that principle.

 

[Sunni Man]

"The War of Northern Aggression", also known in the northern states, as the Civil War.

Was an illegal war and violated the Constitution.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

"The War of Northern Aggression", also known in the northern states, as the Civil War.

Was an illegal war and violated the Constitution.

Not the only thing Lincoln did to violate the Constitution. Such as shutting down opposition newspapers in the north and deporting a U.S. Congressman from Ohio to the Confederacy for some comments he made in opposition to the administration.

 

[Centrism'sVoice]

The United States was comprised of individual sovereign states that came together and formed a federal government to act as their agent, not a national government to act as their oppressor. Secession is a legitimate right of the states. The Constitution doesn't forbid them to secede from the Union, therefore they have the right to do so. Also, upon ratification Virginia, New York, and Rhode Island all reserved the right to leave the Union if they felt it became tyrannical.

I'm going to assume for argument's sake that all the above is accurate (although I have strong doubts). I'm sure that many people in the north, including Lincoln, were genuinely worried that allowing a peaceful secession would leave the remainder of the US vulnerable to foreign aggression. Certainly would have been my top concern if I were in the White House at that time. And of course, balkanization is never good for business.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

The United States was comprised of individual sovereign states that came together and formed a federal government to act as their agent, not a national government to act as their oppressor. Secession is a legitimate right of the states. The Constitution doesn't forbid them to secede from the Union, therefore they have the right to do so. Also, upon ratification Virginia, New York, and Rhode Island all reserved the right to leave the Union if they felt it became tyrannical.

I'm going to assume for argument's sake that all the above is accurate (although I have strong doubts). I'm sure that many people in the north, including Lincoln, were genuinely worried that allowing a peaceful secession would leave the remainder of the US vulnerable to foreign aggression. Certainly would have been my top concern if I were in the White House at that time. And of course, balkanization is never good for business.

I've never heard of Lincoln saying anything of the sort, so maybe you could provide a quote of Lincoln's betraying this concern? However, whether or not that's the case is irrelevant. You don't take the rights of some people away because you're worried that the remainder of the U.S. would be vulnerable to attack by some imagined threat.

 

[JakeStarkey]

I agree with you, KK. Lincoln was committed to the Union, period. I think the South had the right to secede, I think some of the Founders thinking was wrong, and I think Lincoln fixed all of that it by telling the secessionists, "No, over your dead bodies!" and preceded to kill them. Good!

 

[Gunny]

Well, my great grandfather fought on the side that won, and decided the legality of that issue. The Civil War is over and done with. We decided that the United States was what the name said. Time to move on to today's issues, like a health care system that gives us what we pay for. Issues like energy independence. Issues like dealing with the warming world. Issues of asymetric warfare as practiced by various religious or ideological groups.

I like that ... "decided the legality of the issue." It decided who had the best war-making capability, and capability to outlast the other in what amounted to a war of attrition.

 

[Gunny]

LOL. Well, we are the United States of America. However much you might not like that, that is how it is. I have worn the uniform of this nation, I do not intend to see it descend into a set of Balkan states. I am sure that there are many that I normally cross swords with in the liberal versus conservative political debate that see the issue exactly the same as I do.

It's not a REAL difficult issue to see. The US Civil War ended in 1865. It's 2009. We ARE the United States of America, as you say. As far as present reality is concerned, there's nothing to think about.

However, it does NOT preclude an intellectual discussion of a REAL event in history, nor does it have any bearing on the topic other than as a cheap means to deflect from actually discussing the US Civil War in an intelligent and informed manner.

Odd how you and your cronies are quick to bash anyone on the right who dares mention patriotism, but you can throw that "patriot" card and wave the flag with the best of them when it suits you.

 

[Gunny]

I agree with you, KK. Lincoln was committed to the Union, period. I think the South had the right to secede, I think some of the Founders thinking was wrong, and I think Lincoln fixed all of that it by telling the secessionists, "No, over your dead bodies!" and preceded to kill them. Good!

Yeah, it's worked out wonderfully. The Fed govt has steadily encroached into every facet of our lives and usurped any powers the Constitution gives the states it so desires. Little good has come of that.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

I agree with you, KK. Lincoln was committed to the Union, period. I think the South had the right to secede, I think some of the Founders thinking was wrong, and I think Lincoln fixed all of that it by telling the secessionists, "No, over your dead bodies!" and preceded to kill them. Good!

So you think it's good that Lincoln denied them their right to their own self-government? Did you also think the British correct in trying to deny the same right to the 13 colonies when they seceded from the British monarchy?

 

[Xenophon]

The issue was settled by force of arms.

Yes you can leave, but they will not let you go peacefully.

 

[JBeukema]

I agree with you, KK. Lincoln was committed to the Union, period. I think the South had the right to secede, I think some of the Founders thinking was wrong, and I think Lincoln fixed all of that it by telling the secessionists, "No, over your dead bodies!" and preceded to kill them. Good!

Yeah, it's worked out wonderfully. The Fed govt has steadily encroached into every facet of our lives and usurped any powers the Constitution gives the states it so desires. Little good has come of that.

The defeat of the Confederate War for Independence was the beginning of the end of the united States as envisioned by the FF and written into the Constitution.

 

[JBeukema]

America has never believed in self-deteremination for anyone but America. Look at VietNam, where we stepped in to crush the populary revollution shortly after they threw off the chains of French Colonialism, all in the name of 'defeating Communism'.

 

[Gunny]

America has never believed in self-deteremination for anyone but America. Look at VietNam, where we stepped in to crush the populary revollution shortly after they threw off the chains of French Colonialism, all in the name of 'defeating Communism'.

You are oversimplifying a complex situation.