Zone1 The Best Evidence For The Resurrection

[Bad Bob]

Then why the interest in trying to reinterpret it with the aim of tearing it down?

I'm curious about that too.

 

[ding]

The gospels do no such thing. If Jesus believed himself to be divine then according to chapter ten of Mark's gospel he had the perfect opportunity to declare that to be the case.

17;As he was setting out on a journey, a man ran up and knelt before him and asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 18; "Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.

I have given you some very brief information concerning the development of your religion and what different Christian groups believed in those first two and a half centuries.

How did the religious practices of the primitive church relate to those of Jesus and his Palestinian co-religionists? The short answer is that they were identical in substance. At the start, all the members of the Jesus confraternity were Jews, and they continued their traditional Jewish way of life, cultic practice included. [See G. Vermes, Christian Beginnings From Nazareth to Nicaea, YUP, 2013, pp. 62-63]


Imagine one of the earliest apostles, Paul say, having a Rip-Van-Winkle-type sleep for four centuries. Imagine him then awakening in the fifth century and entering into the life of the church of that century. Would he be astonished at all the changes and developments in doctrine and in practice? Would he undergo a profound sense of spiritual culture shock? Would he recognize the Christianity of the fifth century as very similar to his Christianity of the first century? Where a major difference or development had occurred, would he sense an essential connectedness between the two forms of Christianity? Would he feel that fifth-century Christianity was a richer form of his own Christianity or would he feel that somehow Christianity had lost its way? These questions indicate that although Christianity changed little by little, cumulatively the changes over four centuries or more were in some aspects indeed profound. [See L Guy, Introducing Early Christianity. A Topical Survey of Its Life, Belief, and Practices, IVP Academic, 2004, chapter one]

This doesn't look like an explanation for how, when and why people began worshipping Jesus as God.

 

[ding]

The men and women who knew the historical figure Jesus of Nazareth did not worship him as a god. As my previous reply to you illustrates. Those individuals continued to be pious and observant Jews exactly as Jesus had been. However, the cataclysmic impact of the First Jewish War (66-70 CE) on fledgling Christianity cannot be either ignored or overlooked. Following that event the wider Christian movement severed all links with its parent religion and developed as a gentile cult within the Hellenistic world.

When and why did people start worshiping Jesus as God?

 

[ding]

The men and women who knew the historical figure Jesus of Nazareth did not worship him as a god. As my previous reply to you illustrates. Those individuals continued to be pious and observant Jews exactly as Jesus had been. However, the cataclysmic impact of the First Jewish War (66-70 CE) on fledgling Christianity cannot be either ignored or overlooked. Following that event the wider Christian movement severed all links with its parent religion and developed as a gentile cult within the Hellenistic world.

When I google the question, "when and why did people start worshipping Jesus as God?" this is what I get.

Christians began worshipping Jesus as God almost immediately following his death, with the earliest documented practices and writings appearing in the AD 30s to 50s. This began because early Jewish followers believed in his literal resurrection and concluded that God had highly exalted him to share in divine status and glory. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]

When the Worship Began

• The First Decades (AD 30s–50s): Within the first two decades of the church—prior to the writing of the Gospels—early Christians (who were devout Jews) began incorporating Jesus into their prayers, hymns, and rituals. The earliest New Testament writings, such as Paul's letters to the Thessalonians written around AD 50, reflect this established worship. [1, 2, 3]
• Historical Confirmation (AD 112): Outside of the Bible, one of the earliest non-Christian records of Jesus's divinity comes from the Roman governor The Younger Pliny, who reported to the Emperor Trajan that Christians regularly gathered before dawn to "sing responsively a hymn to Christ, as to a god". [1]
• Theological Formalization (AD 325): The belief that Jesus was "God in the fullest sense" was officially codified centuries later at the Council of Nicaea, defining Jesus as being of the same substance as the Father. [1, 2]

Why Early Christians Worshipped Jesus

• The Resurrection: The most vital catalyst for this worship was the belief that Jesus had conquered death. This led followers to view him not just as a prophet or messiah, but as the divine conqueror of sin. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]
• Reinterpretation of the Scriptures: Early Jewish Christians searched the Hebrew scriptures and concluded that Jesus embodied attributes of God, such as the "Word" of creation and the "Lord" (Kyrios) mentioned in the Old Testament. [1, 2, 3, 4]
• Inclusion in the Divine Identity: For ancient monotheistic Jews, worshipping anything other than the one God was strictly forbidden. They resolved this by concluding that Jesus existed alongside the Father from the beginning and shared in the singular identity of God. [1, 2, 3, 4]
• New Testament Testimonies: Biblical texts show the direct elevation of Jesus, such as the Gospel of John calling Jesus the incarnate Word, and Thomas’s declaration in John 20:28: "My Lord and my God!" [1, 2]

 

[ding]

Despite being asked to do so you have yet to provide any attested historical evidence that any of the disciples/apostles did die for their beliefs.

Your replies to me would indicate that you have a very poor understanding of how Christianity developed within the gentile world following the events of 66-70 CE.

So the gospel accounts are lies? How do you explain that?

 

[BreezeWood]

How do you explain how, when and why people started worshipping Jesus as God?

howabout pontious pilate -

did they worship jesus as a god ... were they not in town for the event or return on their knees for jesus to bless them.

 

[BreezeWood]

What do you mean by "christian (jew)". If you want me "to just look it up", I understand.

There are a lot of tall tales from the past. Like the game of Telephone, stories can evolve. I know that's a bad word for some people.

the 4th century christian bible as well islam use the same prologue in their bible as judaism - betraying the goals of the 1st century liberation theology, self determination they gave their lives for ...

religious sedition somehow found in the roman coliseum.

 

[BreezeWood]

Those individuals continued to be pious and observant Jews exactly as Jesus had been.

again, that's why they crucified him ...

 

[Bad Bob]

the 4th century christian bible as well islam use the same prologue in their bible as judaism - betraying the goals of the 1st century liberation theology, self determination they gave their lives for ...

View attachment 1266124

religious sedition somehow found in the roman coliseum.

All three are Abrahamic religions sooo......

 

[BreezeWood]

Then why the interest in trying to reinterpret it with the aim of tearing it down?

its deserved history speaks differently than what the host finds agreeable ...

without remorse from beginning to the present day.

 

[Bad Bob]

its deserved history speaks differently than what the host finds agreeable ...

View attachment 1266129

without remorse from beginning to the present day.

The history of mankind is written in human blood. No human has a monopoly on that trait. Some were exceptional at it like the Romans and the Redcoats.

 

[ding]

howabout pontious pilate -

did they worship jesus as a god ... were they not in town for the event or return on their knees for jesus to bless them.

I wasn't really expecting you to be able to answer this question either. No one has.

 

[ding]

What do you mean by "christian (jew)". If you want me "to just look it up", I understand.

There are a lot of tall tales from the past. Like the game of Telephone, stories can evolve. I know that's a bad word for some people.

Or they can be embellished to serve a specific purpose.

 

[ding]

The history of mankind is written in human blood. No human has a monopoly on that trait. Some were exceptional at it like the Romans and the Redcoats.

But it's fun to be selective to serve one's bias. God forbid anyone be objective about anything.

 

[GLASNOST]

.... If Jesus believed himself to be divine .....

"If", That's the point I always refer to. "If". So far, there is no prooof of it.

 

[BreezeWood]

I wasn't really expecting you to be able to answer this question either. No one has.

could be because the resurrection never happened ...

you mean what the roman army's response was were jesus to have reappeared in the streets with bings adoring crowds ... no doubt that would be in the history books had that happened.

just one contemporary stone statue had it happened -

the silence is deafening.

 

[Ace Nova]

could be because the resurrection never happened ...

you mean what the roman army's response was were jesus to have reappeared in the streets with bings adoring crowds ... no doubt that would be in the history books had that happened.

just one contemporary stone statue had it happened -

the silence is deafening.

Flavius Josephus was a first-century Jewish historian who provided external information on some people and events found in the New Testament. Josephus was a general in Galilee, which is where Jesus ministered and people who knew him still lived; he dwelled near Jesus's hometown of Nazareth for a time, and kept contact with groups such as the Sanhedrin and Ananus II who were involved in the trials of Jesus and his brother James.

His knowledge of Galilee was notable since he wrote much about that region and its inhabitants in his autobiography The Life of Flavius Josephus which was an appendix to Antiquities of the Jews, where the references to Jesus are located. The extant manuscripts of Josephus' book Antiquities of the Jews, written c. AD 93–94, contain two references to Jesus of Nazareth and one reference to John the Baptist.

Josephus on Jesus - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

3. Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.

The Antiquities of the Jews/Book XVIII - Wikisource, the free online library

en.wikisource.org

 

[Hypatia415]

again, that's why they crucified him ...

Incorrect. The Romans crucified him. Crucifixion was a Roman punishment.

 

[Hypatia415]

So the gospel accounts are lies? How do you explain that?

Why do you overreact? Nowhere have I accused those authors of lying. However, you do need to bear in mind that these texts were never intended to be regarded as factual and dispassionate historical records.

Each narrates, from the author's, particular perspective, Jesus' public career, his preaching and teaching, and his activities as an exorcist and wonder worker (goētēs). None of these texts make any attempt at objectivity but are all written with a propagandist purpose to persuade non believing Jews and gentiles to accept Jesus' religious significance or to strengthen the belief of existing believers.

At least three Synoptic gospels are interdependent with generally agreed dates for composition being around 70 CE (Mark) 80 CE (Matthew) and 85-90 CE (Luke) and that the authors of Matthew and Luke used a text of Mark as a source for their own writing, albeit independently. A recently published text by the NT scholar Mark Goodacre returns to the long held view, only overturned in the mid twentieth century, that the author of John knew of the texts by the other writers and that his text is the fourth Synoptic gospel (his book has that title).

Many scholars also contend that there was also a, now lost, text of sayings known as Q (the first letter of the German word Quelle meaning source).

We also have differences in the MSS copies of these texts. There are three versions of the ending of Mark and in some early MSS of Matthew the figure of Barabbas is referred to as Jesus Barabbas. Chapter twenty one of John is quite clearly a later addition as chapter twenty ends:

Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of his disciples that are not written in this book.

And then Hey Presto there is chapter twenty one with Jesus making several further appearances to his disciples and performing another miracle concerning fish.

And of course, to return to the title of this thread, the narratives detailing who went to the tomb and what they found when they got there are all different with the only figure appearing in all four narratives being Mary Magdalene.

 

[Hypatia415]

When I google the question, "when and why did people start worshipping Jesus as God?" this is what I get.

Christians began worshipping Jesus as God almost immediately following his death, with the earliest documented practices and writings appearing in the AD 30s to 50s. This began because early Jewish followers believed in his literal resurrection and concluded that God had highly exalted him to share in divine status and glory. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]

When the Worship Began

• The First Decades (AD 30s–50s): Within the first two decades of the church—prior to the writing of the Gospels—early Christians (who were devout Jews) began incorporating Jesus into their prayers, hymns, and rituals. The earliest New Testament writings, such as Paul's letters to the Thessalonians written around AD 50, reflect this established worship. [1, 2, 3]
• Historical Confirmation (AD 112): Outside of the Bible, one of the earliest non-Christian records of Jesus's divinity comes from the Roman governor The Younger Pliny, who reported to the Emperor Trajan that Christians regularly gathered before dawn to "sing responsively a hymn to Christ, as to a god". [1]
• Theological Formalization (AD 325): The belief that Jesus was "God in the fullest sense" was officially codified centuries later at the Council of Nicaea, defining Jesus as being of the same substance as the Father. [1, 2]

Why Early Christians Worshipped Jesus

• The Resurrection: The most vital catalyst for this worship was the belief that Jesus had conquered death. This led followers to view him not just as a prophet or messiah, but as the divine conqueror of sin. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]
• Reinterpretation of the Scriptures: Early Jewish Christians searched the Hebrew scriptures and concluded that Jesus embodied attributes of God, such as the "Word" of creation and the "Lord" (Kyrios) mentioned in the Old Testament. [1, 2, 3, 4]
• Inclusion in the Divine Identity: For ancient monotheistic Jews, worshipping anything other than the one God was strictly forbidden. They resolved this by concluding that Jesus existed alongside the Father from the beginning and shared in the singular identity of God. [1, 2, 3, 4]
• New Testament Testimonies: Biblical texts show the direct elevation of Jesus, such as the Gospel of John calling Jesus the incarnate Word, and Thomas’s declaration in John 20:28: "My Lord and my God!" [1, 2]

And did you read the small print? AI responses may include mistakes.

AI simply scours the internet. You would do far better to read some books written by academics on these complex topics.