The Balfour Declaration

[Lipush]

Ohhh, lookie who's back indeed....

 

[Shusha]

Well, like a bad penny... I'm back!

So, yes, absolutely, a national homeland for the Jewish people....

The rest didn't work out so well did it?

And, to answer a question you asked early on in the thread... I for one don't think it was executed correctly. Do you?

What didn't "work out so well?" Did you want to be specific?

The civil and religious rights of the Arab Palestinians are preserved in Israel, and in Area C which Israel rightly controls by law (with two exceptions which I criticize Israel for).

The civil and religious rights of Jews have been severely curtailed within Israel, in all the Arab Palestinian areas -- including their right to life(!) -- and in nearly every Arab country. The political status of Jews in other Arab countries has been eliminated. At least one has a different set of laws for Jews. (You know what that is, right?)

The civil rights of Arab Palestinians in territories controlled by Arab Palestinians are severely curtailed by their own governments.

So, yes, I see things didn't "work out so well", mostly for the Jews. Who is responsible?

 

[danielpalos]

Free Judea for free Judeans!

 

[RoccoR]

RE: The Balfour Declaration
※→ Humanity, Shusha, et al,

Funny you should mention "the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine."

• What were the civil rights of the Arab a century ago?
• What were the religious rights of the Arab a century ago?

• What documented and enforced these rights (if any)?​

I tend to think that we have a habit of forgetting that these many rights that are often assigned here, are realy non-existent in 1917.

Most Respctfully,
R

 

[Humanity]

Well, like a bad penny... I'm back!

So, yes, absolutely, a national homeland for the Jewish people....

The rest didn't work out so well did it?

And, to answer a question you asked early on in the thread... I for one don't think it was executed correctly. Do you?

What didn't "work out so well?" Did you want to be specific?

The civil and religious rights of the Arab Palestinians are preserved in Israel, and in Area C which Israel rightly controls by law (with two exceptions which I criticize Israel for).

The civil and religious rights of Jews have been severely curtailed within Israel, in all the Arab Palestinian areas -- including their right to life(!) -- and in nearly every Arab country. The political status of Jews in other Arab countries has been eliminated. At least one has a different set of laws for Jews. (You know what that is, right?)

The civil rights of Arab Palestinians in territories controlled by Arab Palestinians are severely curtailed by their own governments.

So, yes, I see things didn't "work out so well", mostly for the Jews. Who is responsible?

Same old Shusha eh...

Thought I would just bring in the section you posted, just to remind you of what is being discussed rather than you wandering off all over the place...

"His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

Shall we break it down further...

"His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people" Check!

"will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object" Check!

"it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine" Hmmm it all starts unravelling at this point don't you agree?

Yes dear, I know, you are just going to carry on with the same old bullshit 'victimhood' which, really, is surprising considering you got what you wanted!

Quite ironic however, that you quote the Balfour Declaration as some kind of winning flag yet the cronies within Israel decided to go against the very mechanisms that were in place/were being put in place to achieve independent Jewish homeland.

You have become more belligerent, more extremist in your old age Shusha. Shame.

 

[Humanity]

RE: The Balfour Declaration
※→ Humanity, Shusha, et al,

Funny you should mention "the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine."

• What were the civil rights of the Arab a century ago?
• What were the religious rights of the Arab a century ago?

• What documented and enforced these rights (if any)?​

I tend to think that we have a habit of forgetting that these many rights that are often assigned here, are realy non-existent in 1917.

Most Respctfully,
R

I would probably suggest that one of the "rights" was to be able to remain in their homes and not be evicted!

 

[Sixties Fan]

RE: The Balfour Declaration
※→ Humanity, Shusha, et al,

Funny you should mention "the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine."

• What were the civil rights of the Arab a century ago?
• What were the religious rights of the Arab a century ago?

• What documented and enforced these rights (if any)?​

I tend to think that we have a habit of forgetting that these many rights that are often assigned here, are realy non-existent in 1917.

Most Respctfully,
R

I would probably suggest that one of the "rights" was to be able to remain in their homes and not be evicted!

You mean.....like the hundreds or thousands of Jews who did not get to stay in their homes after

1920 Gaza
1925 TranJordan
1929 Hebron, Sfad
1948 Judea, Samaria and the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem ?


All of them were evicted from their homes.

When do they get their rights back?

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: The Balfour Declaration
※→ Humanity, Shusha, et al,

Funny you should mention "the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine."

• What were the civil rights of the Arab a century ago?
• What were the religious rights of the Arab a century ago?

• What documented and enforced these rights (if any)?​

I tend to think that we have a habit of forgetting that these many rights that are often assigned here, are realy non-existent in 1917.

Most Respctfully,
R

I would probably suggest that one of the "rights" was to be able to remain in their homes and not be evicted!

You mean.....like the hundreds or thousands of Jews who did not get to stay in their homes after

1920 Gaza
1925 TranJordan
1929 Hebron, Sfad
1948 Judea, Samaria and the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem ?


All of them were evicted from their homes.

When do they get their rights back?

Where is their BDS? I'l join.

 

[Shusha]

Well, like a bad penny... I'm back!

So, yes, absolutely, a national homeland for the Jewish people....

The rest didn't work out so well did it?

And, to answer a question you asked early on in the thread... I for one don't think it was executed correctly. Do you?

What didn't "work out so well?" Did you want to be specific?

The civil and religious rights of the Arab Palestinians are preserved in Israel, and in Area C which Israel rightly controls by law (with two exceptions which I criticize Israel for).

The civil and religious rights of Jews have been severely curtailed within Israel, in all the Arab Palestinian areas -- including their right to life(!) -- and in nearly every Arab country. The political status of Jews in other Arab countries has been eliminated. At least one has a different set of laws for Jews. (You know what that is, right?)

The civil rights of Arab Palestinians in territories controlled by Arab Palestinians are severely curtailed by their own governments.

So, yes, I see things didn't "work out so well", mostly for the Jews. Who is responsible?

Same old Shusha eh...

Thought I would just bring in the section you posted, just to remind you of what is being discussed rather than you wandering off all over the place...

"His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

Shall we break it down further...

"His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people" Check!

"will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object" Check!

"it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine" Hmmm it all starts unravelling at this point don't you agree?

Yes dear, I know, you are just going to carry on with the same old bullshit 'victimhood' which, really, is surprising considering you got what you wanted!

Quite ironic however, that you quote the Balfour Declaration as some kind of winning flag yet the cronies within Israel decided to go against the very mechanisms that were in place/were being put in place to achieve independent Jewish homeland.

You have become more belligerent, more extremist in your old age Shusha. Shame.

And I see you continue to avoid addressing the points of my post. Which are:

Which Jewish rights have been prejudiced? Who is responsible for this?

Which Arab rights have been prejudiced? Who is responsible for this?

 

[Shusha]

I would probably suggest that one of the "rights" was to be able to remain in their homes and not be evicted!

As usual, Team Palestine discussing "rights" in a vacuum without acknowledging the reality of the situation, including the war which occurred between Israel and hostile locals and five invading armies.

The Jewish people were evicted or needed to flee from ALL surrounding Arab nations -- against the Balfour Declaration and without the context of war.

The Jewish people, in their entirety, in Gaza and the "West Bank' were evicted or needed to flee from ALL territories eventually held by Arabs. This remains true to this day, 100 years later. No Jews live in those territories.

The Arab people in Israel were partially evicted or forced to flee in the context of the war. Many remained and are living in Israel with full civil and religious rights. Reality on the table: Arabs in Israel. No Jews in "Palestine" and most other Arab states.


You can not even attempt to discuss this without including the context of the war. It was the WAR which caused the uprooting of people on both sides -- not the idea of a Jewish homeland.

 

[Shusha]

Reality: No Jews living Arab controlled territories. Plenty of Arabs living in Israel.

It was the Jewish people who were failed by the results from the Balfour Declaration. Not the Arabs.

 

[rylah]

Reality: No Jews living Arab controlled territories. Plenty of Arabs living in Israel.

It was the Jewish people who were failed by the results from the Balfour Declaration. Not the Arabs.

Palestine was already thriving with Zionist enterprise for at least good 50 years prior to the Balfour declaration.

Britain merely took the train.

 

[Humanity]

As usual, Team Palestine discussing "rights" in a vacuum without acknowledging the reality of the situation, including the war which occurred between Israel and hostile locals and five invading armies.

The war that Israel started you mean? Is it that one you are talking about?

 

[Humanity]

The Arab people in Israel were partially evicted or forced to flee

700,000 of them!

 

[Humanity]

Reality: No Jews living Arab controlled territories. Plenty of Arabs living in Israel.

It was the Jewish people who were failed by the results from the Balfour Declaration. Not the Arabs.

A Jewish homeland was achieved... And you call that a failure?

 

[rylah]

As usual, Team Palestine discussing "rights" in a vacuum without acknowledging the reality of the situation, including the war which occurred between Israel and hostile locals and five invading armies.

The war that Israel started you mean? Is it that one you are talking about?

The war started with the Arab pogroms in Syria-Palestine against the local Jews. This in effect forced them to raise a call of help to the Jewish communities in the diaspora -which resulted in Zionism and Israel independence.

Britain was among the first to recognize the positive changes in Palestine brought by Jewish the enterprise, and saw the potential in relying on Zionists as an alternative to the Ottoman control in the region, as they did with Arab clans in other parts of the empire.
Eventually the colonial powers of France and Britain made a mess drawing totally unrealistic borders squeezing together many warring tribes into artificial countries. Jews on the other hand already had their own agreements with the Arab King from Mecca who was to control majority of the territory of the Levant. If Britain and France didn't interfere both Arabs would have a united Levant and Jews a much bigger Israel.

Also, no Zionist ever shot a bullet before Arab pogroms, but the anti-Israel folk will never discuss it.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: The Balfour Declaration
※→ Humanity, Shusha, et al,

Well, I can see how you might say that, if you were applying modern "civil rights" criteria in strict compliance. However, history shows us that what is discussed as rights in time of peace, is the first casualty in time of war and conflict. In fact, today, war and conflict have been replaced by newer terminology.

• International Armed Conflict (IAC)
• Non-International Armed Conflict (NIAC)​

“In Palestine as of Right and Not on Sufferance ...”
“When it is asked what is meant by the development of the Jewish National Home in Palestine, it may be answered that it is not the imposition of a Jewish nationality upon the inhabitants of Palestine as a whole, but the further development of the existing Jewish community, with the assistance of Jews in other parts of the world, in order that it may become a centre in which the Jewish people as a whole may take, on grounds of religion and race, an interest and a pride. But in order that this community should have the best prospect of free development and provide a full opportunity for the Jewish people to display its capacities, it is essential that it should know that it is in Palestine as of right and not on sufferance.”

Winston Churchill
British Secretary of State for the Colonies
June 1922​

Many are of the opinion that the creation of the State of Israel (as the Jewish National Home), which displaced the Palestinian regional majority, was the primary trigger in the conflict which ignited between the Arab Palestinian - and the State of Israel. But is that actually true?

I would probably suggest that one of the "rights" was to be able to remain in their homes and not be evicted!

(COMMENT)

THE FIRST QUESTION: While this statement sounds reasonable, where does it say that? What assurance do the Arab Palestinians (non-Jewish) have on the matter of "civil rights." Remember, under the Rule of the Sultan, the rights were what the Sultan granted.

Not even in modern times are all Customary and International Humanitarian Law is the same in both the IAC and the NIAC. For instance, Common Article 3 applies to "armed conflicts not of an international character (NIAC) occurring in the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties."

Interesting enough, all of the peacetime applicable provisions, of the Gevena Convention, apply to all cases of declared war → or → of any other armed conflict which may arise between two or more of the High Contracting Parties, even if the state of war is not recognized by one of them. This is very applicable to the current Arab Palestinian engagements with the State of Israel. You will sometime hear a pro-Arab Palestinian Advocate suggest that the Arab Palestinians have no peace treaty because they have not been at war with anyone.

But in any case, the civil rights of the Arab Palestinians during the period 1917 through 1922 were not codified. It is hard to say what rights were envisioned, or even if the concept of rights existed for Arab Palestinians.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Humanity]

This in effect forced them to raise a call of help to the Jewish communities in the diaspora -which resulted in Zionism and Israel independence.

Wow, really?

 

[Humanity]

If Britain and France didn't interfere both Arabs would have a united Levant and Jews a much bigger Israel.

Well, thank goodness for Britain and France!

 

[Sixties Fan]

RE: The Balfour Declaration
※→ Humanity, Shusha, et al,

Well, I can see how you might say that, if you were applying modern "civil rights" criteria in strict compliance. However, history shows us that what is discussed as rights in time of peace, is the first casualty in time of war and conflict. In fact, today, war and conflict have been replaced by newer terminology.

• International Armed Conflict (IAC)
• Non-International Armed Conflict (NIAC)​

“In Palestine as of Right and Not on Sufferance ...”
“When it is asked what is meant by the development of the Jewish National Home in Palestine, it may be answered that it is not the imposition of a Jewish nationality upon the inhabitants of Palestine as a whole, but the further development of the existing Jewish community, with the assistance of Jews in other parts of the world, in order that it may become a centre in which the Jewish people as a whole may take, on grounds of religion and race, an interest and a pride. But in order that this community should have the best prospect of free development and provide a full opportunity for the Jewish people to display its capacities, it is essential that it should know that it is in Palestine as of right and not on sufferance.”

Winston Churchill
British Secretary of State for the Colonies
June 1922​

Many are of the opinion that the creation of the State of Israel (as the Jewish National Home), which displaced the Palestinian regional majority, was the primary trigger in the conflict which ignited between the Arab Palestinian - and the State of Israel. But is that actually true?

I would probably suggest that one of the "rights" was to be able to remain in their homes and not be evicted!

(COMMENT)

THE FIRST QUESTION: While this statement sounds reasonable, where does it say that? What assurance do the Arab Palestinians (non-Jewish) have on the matter of "civil rights." Remember, under the Rule of the Sultan, the rights were what the Sultan granted.

Not even in modern times are all Customary and International Humanitarian Law is the same in both the IAC and the NIAC. For instance, Common Article 3 applies to "armed conflicts not of an international character (NIAC) occurring in the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties."

Interesting enough, all of the peacetime applicable provisions, of the Gevena Convention, apply to all cases of declared war → or → of any other armed conflict which may arise between two or more of the High Contracting Parties, even if the state of war is not recognized by one of them. This is very applicable to the current Arab Palestinian engagements with the State of Israel. You will sometime hear a pro-Arab Palestinian Advocate suggest that the Arab Palestinians have no peace treaty because they have not been at war with anyone.

But in any case, the civil rights of the Arab Palestinians during the period 1917 through 1922 were not codified. It is hard to say what rights were envisioned, or even if the concept of rights existed for Arab Palestinians.

Most Respectfully,
R

To the Editors:

Avishai Margalit errs in his book review essay [“Palestine: How Bad, & Good, Was British Rule?,” NYR, February 7]. He writes that the League of Nations Mandate over Palestine conferred on Britain was to prepare the country “to be a ‘national home for the Jews,’ without ‘impairing the civil and religious rights of the indigenous Arab people.’”



That is quite wrong as the Mandate decision does not include the phrase “indigenous Arab people.” The phrase that actually appears is: “nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine.” Arabs, as such, are not mentioned. Political rights were the prerogative of the Jewish people. Residency rights, religious rights, personal liberty rights were to be assured. But nothing more than that and certainly no state which was to be established in the territory of Transjordan, partitioned from the original Mandate area in 1922.

Yisrael Medad
Shiloh, Israel

(full article online)

Palestine: What the Mandate Said