CDZ The American Dream: Financial or Ethical?A,we

Nosmo King

Gold Member
Joined
Aug 31, 2009
Messages
26,362
Reaction score
7,248
Points
290
Location
Buckle of the Rust Belt
Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness. The base alloy of the American Dream.

But to achieve the dream, to be true to the ideal, should we look to it by way of financial freedom and unfettered Capitalism or does the dream come true through justice and fairness?

Is the fair opportunity to enjoy the American Dream the goal, or the finacial security to enjoy the dream the priority? Opportunity through fairness and justice or the opportunity through finacial means. Which weighs more to the Dreamer?

Could this be the kernel of difference between Conservatives and Liberals? Both factions want to enjoy that American Dream. Both sides are patriots. Both sides have great ideas. But the path to that Dream offers those two divergent options.
 

Derideo_Te

Je Suis Charlie
Joined
Mar 2, 2013
Messages
20,461
Reaction score
7,961
Points
360
If you consider the American Dream in the perspective of history certain things come to light.

The original settlers were empowered to deprive the native inhabitants of their land.

The settlement of the West was again done at the expense of the native inhabitants.

The American Dream in the South was at the expense of slaves.

The Wall Street Casino deprived millions of hard working Americans of their American Dream in the Great Depression.

Then we come to the post WW2 era and the American Dream was largely funded by the government and enhanced by unions ensuring living wages with benefits.

All of that prosperity was then set upon by the Wall Street Casino and the Libertarian Koch Bros who have systemically gutted the American Dream.

So to answer your OP question there is a fiscal element to achieving the American Dream. If the necessary financial means to purchase the American Dream is denied then it is an impossibility for those who aspire to it.

It has only been during those periods when the government has intervened and enacted policies that make it feasible that the American Dream is achievable.

As far as ethics goes the Libertarians only recognize greed and selfishness. Everything else is "socialism" and therefore must be condemned as a waste of profits that would otherwise line the pockets of the 1%.

So the American Dream is perceived as "socialist" in their perverted worldview IMO.
 

jwoodie

Gold Member
Joined
Aug 15, 2012
Messages
14,925
Reaction score
3,583
Points
280
Fairness is nothing more than a code word for equality of result. You have obviously confused the USA with the USSR.
 

Skull Pilot

Diamond Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2007
Messages
45,446
Reaction score
6,145
Points
1,830
Any family can create a financial dynasty in just a couple generations.

But people simply refuse to sacrifice for the future
 

Derideo_Te

Je Suis Charlie
Joined
Mar 2, 2013
Messages
20,461
Reaction score
7,961
Points
360
Fairness is nothing more than a code word for equality of result. You have obviously confused the USA with the USSR.
Your RW "code words" are irrelevant and have nothing to do with the OP.
 
OP
Nosmo King

Nosmo King

Gold Member
Joined
Aug 31, 2009
Messages
26,362
Reaction score
7,248
Points
290
Location
Buckle of the Rust Belt
Fairness is nothing more than a code word for equality of result. You have obviously confused the USA with the USSR.
No. I clearly said fairness in opportunity, not outcome. For too few, the path has been cleared, the casino comped way to much, and they acheive the American Dream.

Tax cuts, tax loopholes, off shore accounts, Wall Street windfalls and other public policies have made the American Dream a spectacular experience.

What if all the efforts put forth by policy makers and legislators were channeled into opening the opportunities for every American? Employment discrimination, discrimination at public businesses, wage discrimination and other restrictive public policies and social mores continue to work against the many to serve the few.

Is the American Dream something based on your effort, luck, family and chance alone, or should our leaders govern on the ideal every citizen deserves at the very least, a chance at the American Dream?

Critics will say the government should not be a factor in your opportunities for success. But doesn't Supply Side theory put public policy decisions to the advantage of the few?

Why would we would we give up on the ethical in pursuit of the fiscal?
 

whitehall

Diamond Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2010
Messages
48,004
Reaction score
11,604
Points
2,040
Location
Western Va.
Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness. The base alloy of the American Dream.

But to achieve the dream, to be true to the ideal, should we look to it by way of financial freedom and unfettered Capitalism or does the dream come true through justice and fairness?

Is the fair opportunity to enjoy the American Dream the goal, or the finacial security to enjoy the dream the priority? Opportunity through fairness and justice or the opportunity through finacial means. Which weighs more to the Dreamer?

Could this be the kernel of difference between Conservatives and Liberals? Both factions want to enjoy that American Dream. Both sides are patriots. Both sides have great ideas. But the path to that Dream offers those two divergent options.

'Justice and fairness"? There are tens of thousands of accounts of immigrants getting off the boat with a couple of dollars and becoming a success in the greatest Country in the world. Illegals crawl through the freaking desert to get to the Country that guarantees the rights of "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness".
 

jwoodie

Gold Member
Joined
Aug 15, 2012
Messages
14,925
Reaction score
3,583
Points
280
Fairness is nothing more than a code word for equality of result. You have obviously confused the USA with the USSR.
No. I clearly said fairness in opportunity, not outcome. For too few, the path has been cleared, the casino comped way to much, and they acheive the American Dream.

Tax cuts, tax loopholes, off shore accounts, Wall Street windfalls and other public policies have made the American Dream a spectacular experience.

What if all the efforts put forth by policy makers and legislators were channeled into opening the opportunities for every American? Employment discrimination, discrimination at public businesses, wage discrimination and other restrictive public policies and social mores continue to work against the many to serve the few.

Is the American Dream something based on your effort, luck, family and chance alone, or should our leaders govern on the ideal every citizen deserves at the very least, a chance at the American Dream?

Critics will say the government should not be a factor in your opportunities for success. But doesn't Supply Side theory put public policy decisions to the advantage of the few?

Why would we would we give up on the ethical in pursuit of the fiscal?
OK, let's discuss the logic of your argument, which seems to be that it is unethical to allow some people to accumulate more wealth than others. If this is done by illegal means, then of course they should be prosecuted and their ill gotten booty returned to its rightful owners. However, you seem to attribute this disparity to a lack of "fairness in opportunity." If you mean a lack of fairness in genetics or upbringing, I would agree that life is unfair. But what would you replace it with? Genetically engineered babies who are raised in government operated institutions?

Instead, you attribute this lack of fairness to "employment discrimination, discrimination at public businesses, wage discrimination and other restrictive public policies" which are already illegal. What more do you want, other than government mandated quotas? Despite your constant references to opportunity, the only way you measure fairness is by equality of result.

As for your canard about "the few," what is your point? That they are preventing everyone else from becoming millionaires? Or that they should be prevented from having so much money? If the former, please explain precisely how this is being done. If the latter, how would this benefit the rest of us?

Finally, the American Dream is still attainable for the majority of our population if they follow these steps, in this order:

1. Finish school.
2. Get a job.
3. Gain a skill.
4. Get married
5. Buy a home.

Just who is being denied this opportunity?
 

Most reactions - Past 7 days

Forum List

Top