Teachers' Union To Sue Private Schools Over Voucher Program...

[squeeze berry]

and private schools are required to provide fewer services than public schools which your politicians demanded in the first place

got a problem with the cost of public schools? Tell your politicians tto eliminate special education services, ( not possible) transportation services, ELL, free and reduced lunch, sports and all the other freebies.

Better yet, simply adopt a voucher plan and you can escape all the problems of the public schools.

or we can eliminate all public schools and school taxes and make the parents pay out of pocket for their child's education

 

[gallantwarrior]

Thanks, but you might want to take a second look there. The ruling was not that the vouchers were constitutional, but that the taxpayers suing did not have standing to sue.

Then how do the teachers unions have standing to sue?

When the voucher program is found unconstitutional, any taxpayer money that was sent to a private school would need to be immediately returned, as it legally belongs in the public school system. This would give teachers standing to sue a private school, as that private school is in possession of the teachers' money.

The teachers' money? Only insofar that they are also (presumably) taxpayers.

 

[gallantwarrior]

"their way" encompasses so much more than that one single issue. We are a free Society, we should be open to new ideas and changes.

Name one, specific idea that a private school could do that a public school could not.

Say their prayers and the Pledge of Allegiance without fear of a lawsuit.

 

[gallantwarrior]

"their way" encompasses so much more than that one single issue. We are a free Society, we should be open to new ideas and changes.

Name one, specific idea that a private school could do that a public school could not.

1. Pay teachers according to merit.
   
2. Fire teachers who don't perform.
   
3. Groups kids according to ability rather than according to age.

4. Fail students who have earned it.

 

[gallantwarrior]

Why so resistant to new ideas and change in our School System? Why such a cheerleader for the current Cookie-Cutter Government-Run System? Are we not a Free Society? Let the People decide on Education. It's not a 'My way or the highway' scenario. At least it shouldn't be anyway. The Teacher Unions really should be ashamed of themselves for suing their fellow Citizens over issues like this. I'm not even a big supporter of the Voucher-Programs, but i see no problem trying something different. The militant Teacher Union resistance to change, really is very sad. They've only hurt the children.

I live in a big blue state that is consistently rated near the top in education, so I know what works. It's not the crackpot ideas of conservatives.

I used to live in a big blue state that sucks ass in education. So you don't know what works.

Now, now...that depends on whether you want an education for your children, or a course of socialist indoctrination.

 

[gallantwarrior]

When a private school starts getting taxpayer funded vouchers, it de facto becomes a public school,

and should be held to every standard, rule, regulation, restriction that the public school is.

You just proved you're a bootlicking Nazi teacher's union toady.

Vouchers are just a conservative handout program. You take my tax dollars, hand them over to some parents who want to send their kids to a fundie Christian school to learn there's no such thing as evolution.

No.

Then you apply for a voucher for your children. No where has it been published that you can't select some school to your liking, or that only schools run be religious institutions are eligible to receive vouchers.

 

[gallantwarrior]

Pauli apparently supports the unconstitutional use of taxpayer funds.

Duly noted.

How is allocating funds for a voucher system unconstitutional? Honest question, I'm curious.

Tax dollars being spent on an organization, possibly religious, that does not allow equal access under the law.

First, what is the source of the tax dollars used to finance public education, and vouchers provided as an alternative? State funding and local funding would be governed by state constitution or local governmental entities. The expenditure of Federal monies to support education is, in itself, unconstitutional.


US Constitution, Section. 8 outlines the very specific powers reserved to the Federal government. Note, public education is nowhere listed as a duty (or privilege) reserved to the Fed.

"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

To establish Post Offices and post Roads;

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offences against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;--And

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof."


Of course, when arguing that the Department of Education falls under the category "...or any Department or Officer thereof." one might discover that the usual schism occured when Carter elevated the defunct Department of Education to cabinet status, the usual suspects used the same tired arguments to justify yet another expansion of the Federal government into States rights.

"Upgrading Education to cabinet level status in 1979 was opposed by many in the Republican Party, who saw the department as unconstitutional, arguing that the Constitution doesn't mention education, and deemed it an unnecessary and illegal federal bureaucratic intrusion into local affairs. However many liberals and Democrats see the department as constitutional under the Commerce Clause, and that the funding role of the Department is constitutional under the Taxing and Spending Clause. The National Education Association supported the bill, while the American Federation of Teachers opposed it."
United States Department of Education - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The 10th Amendment allows that States have the right to govern what the Feds have not been allowed:

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

 

[gallantwarrior]

No. How do you physically and practically get the kids out of those schools and to a different school?

Bus

You know buses cost money, right? And a private school is under no obligation to provide one.

Wait, don't we have taxpayer funded public transportation? Most public transportation is provided using vouchers for school kids.

 

[Jroc]

You know buses cost money, right? And a private school is under no obligation to provide one.

Private for profit schools are less expensive, have less waste, busses would just be a part of the operating costs

I'll say it again.

Private schools are under no obligation to provide buses.

You want inner city kids to get sent to different schools, so I will ask again, how are you going to do this? You don't want to spend any more money in public schools, and in fact want to cut the money they're currently getting. In addition, private schools are not required to provide transportation.

So ... how?

Inner city… Out of city… The schools don't have to be out of the city, just privately run for profit. “Required”? Competition dictates the needs of a business in order to succeed. Is home depot "required to provide those nice shopping carts? It’s part of doing business. Liberals always think everything has to be required by the federal government in order for anything to get done

 

[Ariux]

So-called ‘voucher programs’ are indeed about destroying public schools, perceived by the right as the ‘last bastion of “liberalism.”’

The sad irony of this, of course, is public schools are among our most conservative institutions.

Conservatives attempt to portray ‘voucher programs’ as being about what is best for the children, but they know such programs serve only to undermine public schools.

What is "conservative" about public schools? They are totally socialist.

A few years ago I read an article by a libtard of a teachers union. He explained that public schools are conservative because they enforce uniformity (order is a conservative value).

 

[NYcarbineer]

You just proved you're a bootlicking Nazi teacher's union toady.

Vouchers are just a conservative handout program. You take my tax dollars, hand them over to some parents who want to send their kids to a fundie Christian school to learn there's no such thing as evolution.

No.

Then you apply for a voucher for your children. No where has it been published that you can't select some school to your liking, or that only schools run be religious institutions are eligible to receive vouchers.

I don't have kids. I pay higher income taxes because I don't have kids. I pay school taxes to educate other people's kids.

Private schools are a premium choice for those who want something other than the basic public education offered by the government.

 

[NYcarbineer]

The first inevitable consequence of a widespread voucher program would be the cost of private school going up.

 

[chanel]

You may be right. Subsidize anything and the price goes up. See higher ed.

 

[Jroc]

The first inevitable consequence of a widespread voucher program would be the cost of private school going up.

Competition keeps prices down the money stays with the kid

 

[Jroc]

I posted this before, friken stupid liberals refused money for schools because the teachers union didn't want the competition. Of course we all know what happened to Mayor Kwame... Fricken crook

Detroit School Establishment Turns Away $200 million Gift

Thanks to the poisonous atmosphere created by a hostile Detroit public school establishment, philanthropist Robert Thompson has decided, with deep regret, that it is impossible for him to donate a $200 million gift to the city’s school children.

The gift would have come in the form of 15 new charter high schools that would have guaranteed a graduation rate of 90 percent. The city’s current graduation rate is 67.2 percent, according to the School Evaluation Services web site created by the financial ratings firm Standard and Poors (S&P). Many believe that even this low graduation rate is inflated by inaccurate reports filed by Detroit Public Schools.

After seeking legislative authorization for his schools for almost a year, Thompson threw in the towel after the Detroit teachers union threw what can only be described as a tantrum over the prospect of having to compete with charter schools. On hearing that Democratic Gov. Jennifer Granholm had made a deal with the Republican Legislature on a comprehensive charter school expansion package that would have included the Thompson academies, Detroit teachers shut down the schools with a one-day walkout on Sept. 25. Instead of teaching on that school day, 3,000 of these primary beneficiaries of the government school status quo held a mass demonstration at the state Capitol.

In response to this pressure from the public school establishment, both the governor and Detroit Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick walked away from the Thompson gift and from the broader charter deal, which also withdrew governance of the city’s school district from the state-imposed reform board and returned it to a locally elected school board with strong mayoral input.

Here’s the S&P web site’s description of a district that can apparently do without a $200 million gift aimed at improving the educational prospects of its schoolchildren

Detroit School Establishment Turns Away $200 million Gift [Mackinac Center]

 

[gallantwarrior]

Vouchers are just a conservative handout program. You take my tax dollars, hand them over to some parents who want to send their kids to a fundie Christian school to learn there's no such thing as evolution.

No.

Then you apply for a voucher for your children. No where has it been published that you can't select some school to your liking, or that only schools run be religious institutions are eligible to receive vouchers.

I don't have kids. I pay higher income taxes because I don't have kids. I pay school taxes to educate other people's kids.

Private schools are a premium choice for those who want something other than the basic public education offered by the government.

You are aware that the voucher system is far less expensive than regular public schools, on a per-student basis? It may be a "premium" choice, but it is a sensible financial policy.

BTW, I only have one child, whom I ended up home-schooling because of the way schools are run. I still resent that over 60% of my property taxes are flushed down the shithole that is public education. I would much rather see that money put into the hands of responsible parents who actually care whether their children receive an education at my expense.

 

[gallantwarrior]

The first inevitable consequence of a widespread voucher program would be the cost of private school going up.

That is most likely true, because any time government money starts to flow, all the recipients seem to think they need to cash in.

 

[bripat9643]

Name one, specific idea that a private school could do that a public school could not.

1. Pay teachers according to merit.
   
2. Fire teachers who don't perform.
   
3. Groups kids according to ability rather than according to age.

First off, thanks for ruining the fun! Pauli was the one crying about new ideas and I wanted him to actually post one (for a change).

Second, from your list, 2 of those items are already in place, teacher firing and grouping kids by ability. The first one is an idea Obama is trying to get in place and the GOP and "conservatives" are blocking him on it. So, I guess, technically, you're right. #1 can't happen in public schools because half the country won't allow it.

Sorry, no they aren't. It's was easier to build the pyramids than get a public school teacher fired. John Stossel documented all the steps involved. There are hundreds of them. It can cost over a million to fire a teacher and take 5 years.

I'm also not aware of any schools that don't practice social promotion.

 

[gallantwarrior]

I posted this before, friken stupid liberals refused money for schools because the teachers union didn't want the competition. Of course we all know what happened to Mayor Kwame... Fricken crook

Detroit School Establishment Turns Away $200 million Gift

Thanks to the poisonous atmosphere created by a hostile Detroit public school establishment, philanthropist Robert Thompson has decided, with deep regret, that it is impossible for him to donate a $200 million gift to the city’s school children.

The gift would have come in the form of 15 new charter high schools that would have guaranteed a graduation rate of 90 percent. The city’s current graduation rate is 67.2 percent, according to the School Evaluation Services web site created by the financial ratings firm Standard and Poors (S&P). Many believe that even this low graduation rate is inflated by inaccurate reports filed by Detroit Public Schools.

After seeking legislative authorization for his schools for almost a year, Thompson threw in the towel after the Detroit teachers union threw what can only be described as a tantrum over the prospect of having to compete with charter schools. On hearing that Democratic Gov. Jennifer Granholm had made a deal with the Republican Legislature on a comprehensive charter school expansion package that would have included the Thompson academies, Detroit teachers shut down the schools with a one-day walkout on Sept. 25. Instead of teaching on that school day, 3,000 of these primary beneficiaries of the government school status quo held a mass demonstration at the state Capitol.

In response to this pressure from the public school establishment, both the governor and Detroit Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick walked away from the Thompson gift and from the broader charter deal, which also withdrew governance of the city’s school district from the state-imposed reform board and returned it to a locally elected school board with strong mayoral input.

Here’s the S&P web site’s description of a district that can apparently do without a $200 million gift aimed at improving the educational prospects of its schoolchildren

Detroit School Establishment Turns Away $200 million Gift [Mackinac Center]

Pretty fuckin' amazing how expensive the union driven, so-called "educational" system truly is when one considers the unintended consequences of caving to union bullies. The ultimate losers are: the children who would have actually gotten a decent education. But never, ever forget that the ultimate goal of the liberal "education" system is not education, but rather the indoctrination of yet another generation of liberal drones.

 

[bripat9643]

When a private school starts getting taxpayer funded vouchers, it de facto becomes a public school,

and should be held to every standard, rule, regulation, restriction that the public school is.

You just proved you're a bootlicking Nazi teacher's union toady.

Vouchers are just a conservative handout program. You take my tax dollars, hand them over to some parents who want to send their kids to a fundie Christian school to learn there's no such thing as evolution.

No.

So public schools are a liberal handout? Is that what you're trying to say?