Swiss Region Bans Burqas

[ChrisL]

Well, I am only reading those posts addressed to me. I'm not reading the entire thread, so if you wouldn't mind at least providing me with the page number, that would be appreciated.

If you're idea of understanding and engaging in a debate is to read only the posts addressed to you, you have a freaking cheek to demand I do anything. No wonder you have no clue as to what is going on. You don't even read the posts, then demand people sort it all out for you? I'm trying not to be rude, as I've agreed with a lot of posts you've made elsewhere on other subjects, but if you cannot even be bothered to follow the thread, please don't demand I do anything for you. I'm done with you on this subject. Have a nice, day/ evening, whatever the time is where you are. Ciao.

Of course I'm not going to read a thread with the back and forth bullshit that goes on here. Lol.

It does sound as though it really is much too difficult for you to follow a thread. A single thread. Thanks for the heads up. Poor dear.

Well, TBH, I really don't know what your problem is. I only asked you for a link to back up your claims. You failed to provide me with one. That's all there is to it.

Give it a rest, dear. I'm not interested in debating with airheads who admit they ignore most of a thread, ignore the articles and links already provided because they only read posts directed at them, then demand that others go over it all again. Your picture shows you are a middle aged woman, yet you behave like a vacuous spoilt child. So, once again, go and bore the pants off someone else. Thanks

Firstly, I am not your "dear."

Now, realize this, I won't read the entire thread because I already know it is full of things like this ^^^ which are useless and do nothing to solve any of the problem we are facing currently. Now, if you don't want to provide links to back up your statements, that is fine. This conversation is over. Have a nice day.

And 37 is not yet middle aged. Don't add age onto me please.

 

[ChrisL]

Time to change my avatar picture. Perhaps Mr. Tilly will like this one better.

 

[Tilly]

Not really. A Jewish, Christian, atheist, Hindu, Jaine, agnostic also may also not wear a face mask except for the times, events, circumstances that the law allows.

Really? In Switzerland, the purpose of this post, they banned Burkas, not other religious dress that covers faces.

You do realise that the conversation has become much wider, what with people not knowing or understanding their own laws and whatnot, don't you or maybe you have these people on ignore. Whatever.
Anyway, back to Switzerland. About 25% of its population comes,from elsewhere, so who knows? I don't think they generate any stats based on religion, other than the the number of Protestants v Catholics within Christianity, so who knows? And, I really want to say this only one more time, they said they intended to ban other masks too, and that balaclavas and so on were going to be dealt with in the same law, but that they suspected that there would then be cries about Muslims being likened to bank robbers, burglars and so on. Of course, that's probably exactly what would have happened, so they demonstrated foresight there.

I have fundamental principles in life. I realise by talking to many people on this forum that most people simply don't. They're reactionaries. They respond to each new event in isolation to other events. They can make contradictory statements one moment to the next.

What I'm doing is showing this reactionary nature in people, but the thing is that reactionaries will make sure they've shored up their arguments in some way or another.

If you're for freedoms and rights, then you have to understand freedoms and rights. What makes a country free, what makes rights what they are and not privileges.

The simple answer to this is that a right is a right no matter what, no matter who and no matter when. It's the same for almost everything.

If you want freedom, you can't compromise on freedom, you can't say freedom for this person and not freedom for that person based on a whim. But people are doing that en masse on this forum. Trump is doing this and turning the US away from freedom and towards some kind of right wing wet dream. The right is often claiming to be pro-human rights, pro-freedom, but its actions are often different. (That's not to say the left doesn't have reactionaries too).

I probably have a lot of the muppets on ignore. The insulters definitely. But, I know many people don't have a clue what they're talking about and are just reacting how they see fit.

I understand that you take very seriously the issue of rights and that you are passionate about that, and I apologise if I've been rather flippant with you, but I doubt we will ever see eye to on this particular matter, partly maybe because I live in Europe and you live in the US and that probably makes our experiences of this issue different, perhaps. I can see that you think I'm a reactionary who doesn't see the big picture (I think you couldn't be further from the truth), but I see you as a naive ideologue who doesn't really understand what is happening all around the world, and with the media as it is, that means right under your nose. The very values the West has fought for and that you and I, yes I, hold dear are also what make us weak when up against the enemy that is Islamism. I view the explosion in the wearing of burqa's and niqabs in Europe since 9/11 to be very telling, and I am clearly not alone in this, in Europe at least. I support the banning of this expression of wahabi militant Islamism, and I'd be happy for all face masks to be banned in public places for security reasons also. I also support the Swiss in their efforts to preserve their culture and values and to take security measures such as this, you clearly never will, preferring to see this as some kind of abuse of religious freedom, or the removal of a right. So I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this issue, as I'm fed up pointlessly going round in circles. Anyway, regardless of our differences, I do hope you have a nice day

You think I don't understand. I do. However I see things perhaps differently to you do.

Sure, the values that we hold sacred are what can make us weak. But they don't have to make us weak.

But if you give up your principles to fight those without good principles, then you've lost.

The problem is, we have some principles, and ignore them when it suits us.

My principles say that invading Iraq was wrong. They also say the post war period was wrong. That we brought this aggression on ourselves. Now we're trying to fight this new aggression in the same way we managed to bring on the aggression in the first place.

Also I see this situation where the right make problems in order to be tough on the problems, to legitimise their existence.

It happens in Israel/Palestine, for example, where the right wing Israelis and right wing Palestinians are using each other to cause more problems and therefore to increase their own popularity.

Bush went to war, caused problems, increased hatred of the US and the west, and then needs a stronger military to deal with the fallout, and the politicians, like Trump, only need to make simple statements like "Islam is bad" and too many people fall in line and accept the eroding of our rights.

I don't think any of this was an accident.

The end of the Cold War saw the end of the Republicans 12 years in the White House. Clinton was there. Then when Bush got elected he suddenly made a situation that was, again, suitable and convenient for the right.

They like spending on defense, they like having regressive laws while telling people they're pro-human rights. (Plenty examples of this sort of contradiction, pro-life but pro executions, pro war etc etc). It's perfect for them. They've destabilized the world, and they're licking their lips.

Making regressive laws simply plays into the hands of such people, and I'm not going to stand by and accept their crap.

The explosion of burkas and things in Europe and the west is generally because people who are reactionary, on both sides, are coming up with arguments that aren't sensible, and then people fly off the handle.

Why are we letting in people we don't need? It doesn't make much sense, but it happens because WE are causing ourselves problems. Because we open our borders and hand out free stuff, allow conditions that wouldn't happen under sensible policies.

I can't stay on the board right now, but you do remember 9/11 happened before Iraq? And if it's any consolation, I was always anti-war and disagreed with the Iraq war, and Afghanistan, knowing how it would likely turn out afterwards. I will try to get back on and address the rest of your thoughtful post later, but in the meantime, it's a sad fact that sometimes some principles have to take a back seat. I'm afraid I'm one of those despicable people who put lives, safety and security above some things that aren't or shouldn't even be rights, and in my view are more inconveniences, an annoyances, For example demanding to be able to wear wahabi type face masks in public in your adopted country, and pretending it's mandated by your religion when it simply isn't. See you later.

 

[ChrisL]

So, there are exceptions for everything but Muslim women? Right..... why?

Sounds just like people want to take freedoms away from Muslims.

Not really. A Jewish, Christian, atheist, Hindu, Jaine, agnostic also may also not wear a face mask except for the times, events, circumstances that the law allows.

Really? In Switzerland, the purpose of this post, they banned Burkas, not other religious dress that covers faces.

You do realise that the conversation has become much wider, what with people not knowing or understanding their own laws and whatnot, don't you or maybe you have these people on ignore. Whatever.
Anyway, back to Switzerland. About 25% of its population comes,from elsewhere, so who knows? I don't think they generate any stats based on religion, other than the the number of Protestants v Catholics within Christianity, so who knows? And, I really want to say this only one more time, they said they intended to ban other masks too, and that balaclavas and so on were going to be dealt with in the same law, but that they suspected that there would then be cries about Muslims being likened to bank robbers, burglars and so on. Of course, that's probably exactly what would have happened, so they demonstrated foresight there.

I have fundamental principles in life. I realise by talking to many people on this forum that most people simply don't. They're reactionaries. They respond to each new event in isolation to other events. They can make contradictory statements one moment to the next.

What I'm doing is showing this reactionary nature in people, but the thing is that reactionaries will make sure they've shored up their arguments in some way or another.

If you're for freedoms and rights, then you have to understand freedoms and rights. What makes a country free, what makes rights what they are and not privileges.

The simple answer to this is that a right is a right no matter what, no matter who and no matter when. It's the same for almost everything.

If you want freedom, you can't compromise on freedom, you can't say freedom for this person and not freedom for that person based on a whim. But people are doing that en masse on this forum. Trump is doing this and turning the US away from freedom and towards some kind of right wing wet dream. The right is often claiming to be pro-human rights, pro-freedom, but its actions are often different. (That's not to say the left doesn't have reactionaries too).

I probably have a lot of the muppets on ignore. The insulters definitely. But, I know many people don't have a clue what they're talking about and are just reacting how they see fit.

I understand that you take very seriously the issue of rights and that you are passionate about that, and I apologise if I've been rather flippant with you, but I doubt we will ever see eye to on this particular matter, partly maybe because I live in Europe and you live in the US and that probably makes our experiences of this issue different, perhaps. I can see that you think I'm a reactionary who doesn't see the big picture (I think you couldn't be further from the truth), but I see you as a naive ideologue who doesn't really understand what is happening all around the world, and with the media as it is, that means right under your nose. The very values the West has fought for and that you and I, yes I, hold dear are also what make us weak when up against the enemy that is Islamism. I view the explosion in the wearing of burqa's and niqabs in Europe since 9/11 to be very telling, and I am clearly not alone in this, in Europe at least. I support the banning of this expression of wahabi militant Islamism, and I'd be happy for all face masks to be banned in public places for security reasons also. I also support the Swiss in their efforts to preserve their culture and values and to take security measures such as this, you clearly never will, preferring to see this as some kind of abuse of religious freedom, or the removal of a right. So I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this issue, as I'm fed up pointlessly going round in circles. Anyway, regardless of our differences, I do hope you have a nice day

So you aren't even from this country? OH, that explains a lot about your attitude towards our rights.

 

[ChrisL]

Never thought I would be attacked for simply asking someone to provide a link. Geesh! I think Mr. Tilly needs some therapy or something!

 

[Tilly]

If you're idea of understanding and engaging in a debate is to read only the posts addressed to you, you have a freaking cheek to demand I do anything. No wonder you have no clue as to what is going on. You don't even read the posts, then demand people sort it all out for you? I'm trying not to be rude, as I've agreed with a lot of posts you've made elsewhere on other subjects, but if you cannot even be bothered to follow the thread, please don't demand I do anything for you. I'm done with you on this subject. Have a nice, day/ evening, whatever the time is where you are. Ciao.

Of course I'm not going to read a thread with the back and forth bullshit that goes on here. Lol.

It does sound as though it really is much too difficult for you to follow a thread. A single thread. Thanks for the heads up. Poor dear.

Well, TBH, I really don't know what your problem is. I only asked you for a link to back up your claims. You failed to provide me with one. That's all there is to it.

Give it a rest, dear. I'm not interested in debating with airheads who admit they ignore most of a thread, ignore the articles and links already provided because they only read posts directed at them, then demand that others go over it all again. Your picture shows you are a middle aged woman, yet you behave like a vacuous spoilt child. So, once again, go and bore the pants off someone else. Thanks

Firstly, I am not your "dear."

Now, realize this, I won't read the entire thread because I already know it is full of things like this ^^^ which are useless and do nothing to solve any of the problem we are facing currently. Now, if you don't want to provide links to back up your statements, that is fine. This conversation is over. Have a nice day.

And 37 is not yet middle aged. Don't add age onto me please.

If you say so. Maybe you should have kept out of the sun, a burqa perhaps? And, as to the rest, whatever. Incidentally, clearly the thread wasn't just full of whatever you are struggling to allude to above, but to articles and links added with some difficulty on a temperamental iPad. I'm not interested in pursuing any more of your nonsense so, I won't be responding to anymore of it. You have a nice day too

 

[Tilly]

Time to change my avatar picture. Perhaps Mr. Tilly will like this one better.

The point I, Ms Tilly, was actually making was that it would be nice if you could act your age, which clearly isn't 16. But clearly that went over your head too. Sigh, and bye

 

[ChrisL]

No, I don't want to read 56 or so pages just to find your link. If you are going to make claims, then it is up to you to back them up with reputable and legitimate links when requested or you forfeit.

When I politely asked you to refer back to those articles, they were just a few pages away, as I told you at the time. But you were too busy wailing and misunderstanding just about everything to carry out the mammoth task of clicking back a few pages. Such is life.

Well, I am only reading those posts addressed to me. I'm not reading the entire thread, so if you wouldn't mind at least providing me with the page number, that would be appreciated.

If you're idea of understanding and engaging in a debate is to read only the posts addressed to you, you have a freaking cheek to demand I do anything. No wonder you have no clue as to what is going on. You don't even read the posts, then demand people sort it all out for you? I'm trying not to be rude, as I've agreed with a lot of posts you've made elsewhere on other subjects, but if you cannot even be bothered to follow the thread, please don't demand I do anything for you. I'm done with you on this subject. Have a nice, day/ evening, whatever the time is where you are. Ciao.

Of course I'm not going to read a thread with the back and forth bullshit that goes on here. Lol.

It does sound as though it really is much too difficult for you to follow a thread. A single thread. Thanks for the heads up. Poor dear.

Okay, I'll just assume that you were cranky last night and this morning, so that is why you refuse to provide the link for me.

Later, I'll check back and see if you have provided any evidence to back up your statement that burkas are already "illegal" or "banned" in some states in the US. I also had asked you earlier if those "laws" were ever used to fine a Muslim woman for wearing a burka.

I also wonder why this has suddenly become such a big issue, considering I don't think we have a problem with people wearing burkas very often in this country, so what gives?

While I also don't agree with the burka and what it stands for, I see no reason to "ban" it. If a person wants to wear one because that person feels it would be sinful to not be covered, then that should be up to the individual, excluding certain circumstances of course, like official photos, appearing in court, or when asked to remove it by an authority figure such as the police for identification purposes.

There are plenty of items that could assist a person in committing a crime, and we just cannot start banning things like that because someone MIGHT do something.

 

[ChrisL]

Time to change my avatar picture. Perhaps Mr. Tilly will like this one better.

The point I, Ms Tilly, was actually making was that it would be nice if you could act your age, which clearly isn't 16. But clearly that went over your head too. Sigh, and bye

I simply asked you to provide a link. If you cannot provide it, then I asked for a page number or a post number. I just don't want to go through the thread to read all of the insults and the back and forth fighting that is not even really related to anything. I just want the facts is all.

 

[ChrisL]

Of course I'm not going to read a thread with the back and forth bullshit that goes on here. Lol.

It does sound as though it really is much too difficult for you to follow a thread. A single thread. Thanks for the heads up. Poor dear.

Well, TBH, I really don't know what your problem is. I only asked you for a link to back up your claims. You failed to provide me with one. That's all there is to it.

Give it a rest, dear. I'm not interested in debating with airheads who admit they ignore most of a thread, ignore the articles and links already provided because they only read posts directed at them, then demand that others go over it all again. Your picture shows you are a middle aged woman, yet you behave like a vacuous spoilt child. So, once again, go and bore the pants off someone else. Thanks

Firstly, I am not your "dear."

Now, realize this, I won't read the entire thread because I already know it is full of things like this ^^^ which are useless and do nothing to solve any of the problem we are facing currently. Now, if you don't want to provide links to back up your statements, that is fine. This conversation is over. Have a nice day.

And 37 is not yet middle aged. Don't add age onto me please.

If you say so. Maybe you should have kept out of the sun, a burqa perhaps? And, as to the rest, whatever. Incidentally, clearly the thread wasn't just full of whatever you are struggling to allude to above, but to articles and links added with some difficulty on a temperamental iPad. I'm not interested in pursuing any more of your nonsense so, I won't be responding to anymore of it. You have a nice day too

Why are you insulting me anyway?

 

[ChrisL]

Why do people get so angry and insult you when you ask them to provide a link? What gives?

 

[ChrisL]

You see, the thing is that here in America, our government cannot assume the worst about us and then make laws based upon that. That is just not the "American way." Our government is not supposed to be involved in our personal choices.

I cannot believe that Americans would be pushing for the government to have such control over our personal choices, like clothing that we wear! I think that is just frightening that people would want to give the government any kind of control over our darn clothing choices!

 

[ChrisL]

I don't know. I guess I am just looking at the bigger picture here. Not just based on a fear of Muslims but overall how would this affect us and our rights to dress the way we choose? I don't like it and I don't feel comfortable with that at all. I am hopeful that would never come to fruition here in the US.

 

[Tilly]

When I politely asked you to refer back to those articles, they were just a few pages away, as I told you at the time. But you were too busy wailing and misunderstanding just about everything to carry out the mammoth task of clicking back a few pages. Such is life.

Well, I am only reading those posts addressed to me. I'm not reading the entire thread, so if you wouldn't mind at least providing me with the page number, that would be appreciated.

If you're idea of understanding and engaging in a debate is to read only the posts addressed to you, you have a freaking cheek to demand I do anything. No wonder you have no clue as to what is going on. You don't even read the posts, then demand people sort it all out for you? I'm trying not to be rude, as I've agreed with a lot of posts you've made elsewhere on other subjects, but if you cannot even be bothered to follow the thread, please don't demand I do anything for you. I'm done with you on this subject. Have a nice, day/ evening, whatever the time is where you are. Ciao.

Of course I'm not going to read a thread with the back and forth bullshit that goes on here. Lol.

It does sound as though it really is much too difficult for you to follow a thread. A single thread. Thanks for the heads up. Poor dear.

Okay, I'll just assume that you were cranky last night and this morning, so that is why you refuse to provide the link for me.

Later, I'll check back and see if you have provided any evidence to back up your statement that burkas are already "illegal" or "banned" in some states in the US.

You see, that's your problem right there. You seem to have comprehension problems, even after I've pointed the same misrepresentation (you are tirelessly peddling) out to you three times now.
Isn't there a kiddies forum you could post on? Don't bother responding to me anymore. I'm not interested in navigating your genuine or assumed idiocy any more.

 

[ChrisL]

Well, I am only reading those posts addressed to me. I'm not reading the entire thread, so if you wouldn't mind at least providing me with the page number, that would be appreciated.

If you're idea of understanding and engaging in a debate is to read only the posts addressed to you, you have a freaking cheek to demand I do anything. No wonder you have no clue as to what is going on. You don't even read the posts, then demand people sort it all out for you? I'm trying not to be rude, as I've agreed with a lot of posts you've made elsewhere on other subjects, but if you cannot even be bothered to follow the thread, please don't demand I do anything for you. I'm done with you on this subject. Have a nice, day/ evening, whatever the time is where you are. Ciao.

Of course I'm not going to read a thread with the back and forth bullshit that goes on here. Lol.

It does sound as though it really is much too difficult for you to follow a thread. A single thread. Thanks for the heads up. Poor dear.

Okay, I'll just assume that you were cranky last night and this morning, so that is why you refuse to provide the link for me.

Later, I'll check back and see if you have provided any evidence to back up your statement that burkas are already "illegal" or "banned" in some states in the US.

You see, that's your problem right there. You seem to have comprehension problems, even after I've pointed the same misrepresentation (you are tirelessly peddling) out to you three times now.
Isn't there a kiddies forum you could post on? Don't bother responding to me anymore. I'm not interested in navigating your genuine or assumed idiocy any more.

Don't be angry at others when you make all kinds of claims and when asked to provide evidence, you fail. That is really your problem, and you need to stop insulting other people for your own failures.

You did actually provide me with one link, but that was to a blog and was not specific at all. I wanted some specific information about this law. There is absolutely NO reason for anyone to be so upset over such a request after making those claims. Just another angry crazy person to add to the rest. Great.

 

[ChrisL]

IF this law actually does exist, then I would want to know if it has been used and applied, where and when, has it ever been challenged as to it's constitutional muster? These are all legitimate questions and do NOT make me an "airhead." I would be concerned about such a law as an American citizen because I would think it to be unconstitutional.

When I try to google "states in America where the burqa is banned." Nothing about any bans on burqas comes up for me.

 

[saintmichaeldefendthem]

Your outlandish hypotheticals have nothing to do with the law that was passed or the reasons it was passed. It's you Leftists that celebrate movies like Vendetta in which terrorists hide behind masks. We consider masked miscreants as target practice for armed citizens. The only reason anyone wants to disguise themselves in public is to commit violence and it's better to follow the Golden Rule: Do unto Leftists before Leftists do unto you.

Hypotheticals? You mean people don't cover their faces at Halloween? Of course they do.

You make a law banning people covering their faces in public, then NOBODY at ANY TIME can cover their faces.

So when it's cold they can't cover their faces, when it's party time they can't cover their faces.

Or should we be honest about things here. The law was passed because the people covering their faces are Muslims, and "**** Muslims, we hate Muslims, Muslims don't have rights, **** Muslims and **** them again"

Right? That's all it's about, it's about Christians declaring their "superiority" over Muslims, making life for Muslims as difficult as possible and telling Muslims "**** YOU".

Nothing more than that.

Muslims can wear Halloween masks too. Your argument fails on every level.

No it doesn't.

So, Muslims can go around in Halloween masks instead of the Burka then? Then what will happen, some person will then decide to ban Halloween masks to get at Muslims.

A Muslim wants to cover their face with a burka, but can't. How is that freedom?

A Muslim won't have any less freedom than anyone else. Are you really so stupid you think freedom is "I can do anything I want to do"?

Did I say that freedom is do what you like?

Freedom is do what you like as long as it doesn't hurt others.

How about we ban Christians from having crosses? I mean, many Christians kill people, they're a potential threat, they have guns and things.

They can't complain that their freedom is being taken away, because freedom isn't "I can do anything I want to do", right?

SO, ban crosses. Why? Because we can.

Now we're arguing in circles since you are recalcitrant to see that burkas are nothing like crosses and present a national security concern that crosses cannot. I'm through with you, you hopeless moron.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Really? In Switzerland, the purpose of this post, they banned Burkas, not other religious dress that covers faces.

You do realise that the conversation has become much wider, what with people not knowing or understanding their own laws and whatnot, don't you or maybe you have these people on ignore. Whatever.
Anyway, back to Switzerland. About 25% of its population comes,from elsewhere, so who knows? I don't think they generate any stats based on religion, other than the the number of Protestants v Catholics within Christianity, so who knows? And, I really want to say this only one more time, they said they intended to ban other masks too, and that balaclavas and so on were going to be dealt with in the same law, but that they suspected that there would then be cries about Muslims being likened to bank robbers, burglars and so on. Of course, that's probably exactly what would have happened, so they demonstrated foresight there.

I have fundamental principles in life. I realise by talking to many people on this forum that most people simply don't. They're reactionaries. They respond to each new event in isolation to other events. They can make contradictory statements one moment to the next.

What I'm doing is showing this reactionary nature in people, but the thing is that reactionaries will make sure they've shored up their arguments in some way or another.

If you're for freedoms and rights, then you have to understand freedoms and rights. What makes a country free, what makes rights what they are and not privileges.

The simple answer to this is that a right is a right no matter what, no matter who and no matter when. It's the same for almost everything.

If you want freedom, you can't compromise on freedom, you can't say freedom for this person and not freedom for that person based on a whim. But people are doing that en masse on this forum. Trump is doing this and turning the US away from freedom and towards some kind of right wing wet dream. The right is often claiming to be pro-human rights, pro-freedom, but its actions are often different. (That's not to say the left doesn't have reactionaries too).

I probably have a lot of the muppets on ignore. The insulters definitely. But, I know many people don't have a clue what they're talking about and are just reacting how they see fit.

I understand that you take very seriously the issue of rights and that you are passionate about that, and I apologise if I've been rather flippant with you, but I doubt we will ever see eye to on this particular matter, partly maybe because I live in Europe and you live in the US and that probably makes our experiences of this issue different, perhaps. I can see that you think I'm a reactionary who doesn't see the big picture (I think you couldn't be further from the truth), but I see you as a naive ideologue who doesn't really understand what is happening all around the world, and with the media as it is, that means right under your nose. The very values the West has fought for and that you and I, yes I, hold dear are also what make us weak when up against the enemy that is Islamism. I view the explosion in the wearing of burqa's and niqabs in Europe since 9/11 to be very telling, and I am clearly not alone in this, in Europe at least. I support the banning of this expression of wahabi militant Islamism, and I'd be happy for all face masks to be banned in public places for security reasons also. I also support the Swiss in their efforts to preserve their culture and values and to take security measures such as this, you clearly never will, preferring to see this as some kind of abuse of religious freedom, or the removal of a right. So I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this issue, as I'm fed up pointlessly going round in circles. Anyway, regardless of our differences, I do hope you have a nice day

You think I don't understand. I do. However I see things perhaps differently to you do.

Sure, the values that we hold sacred are what can make us weak. But they don't have to make us weak.

But if you give up your principles to fight those without good principles, then you've lost.

The problem is, we have some principles, and ignore them when it suits us.

My principles say that invading Iraq was wrong. They also say the post war period was wrong. That we brought this aggression on ourselves. Now we're trying to fight this new aggression in the same way we managed to bring on the aggression in the first place.

Also I see this situation where the right make problems in order to be tough on the problems, to legitimise their existence.

It happens in Israel/Palestine, for example, where the right wing Israelis and right wing Palestinians are using each other to cause more problems and therefore to increase their own popularity.

Bush went to war, caused problems, increased hatred of the US and the west, and then needs a stronger military to deal with the fallout, and the politicians, like Trump, only need to make simple statements like "Islam is bad" and too many people fall in line and accept the eroding of our rights.

I don't think any of this was an accident.

The end of the Cold War saw the end of the Republicans 12 years in the White House. Clinton was there. Then when Bush got elected he suddenly made a situation that was, again, suitable and convenient for the right.

They like spending on defense, they like having regressive laws while telling people they're pro-human rights. (Plenty examples of this sort of contradiction, pro-life but pro executions, pro war etc etc). It's perfect for them. They've destabilized the world, and they're licking their lips.

Making regressive laws simply plays into the hands of such people, and I'm not going to stand by and accept their crap.

The explosion of burkas and things in Europe and the west is generally because people who are reactionary, on both sides, are coming up with arguments that aren't sensible, and then people fly off the handle.

Why are we letting in people we don't need? It doesn't make much sense, but it happens because WE are causing ourselves problems. Because we open our borders and hand out free stuff, allow conditions that wouldn't happen under sensible policies.

I can't stay on the board right now, but you do remember 9/11 happened before Iraq? And if it's any consolation, I was always anti-war and disagreed with the Iraq war, and Afghanistan, knowing how it would likely turn out afterwards. I will try to get back on and address the rest of your thoughtful post later, but in the meantime, it's a sad fact that sometimes some principles have to take a back seat. I'm afraid I'm one of those despicable people who put lives, safety and security above some things that aren't or shouldn't even be rights, and in my view are more inconveniences, an annoyances, For example demanding to be able to wear wahabi type face masks in public in your adopted country, and pretending it's mandated by your religion when it simply isn't. See you later.

Yes, I remember when 9/11 was.

I also remember what happened before that. All the reasons why people were angry with the US. I also remember that you could go on holiday to Syria, Egypt, and many other places in the Middle East. I remember when Muslims weren't singled out, I remember when things were getting better in Israel.

Then Bush happened, and Sharon in Israel, and since then it's all gone up the wall. A solution to the problem that happened on 9/11? No, Bush got more people killed, by a long way, than the Islamists did on 9/11.

In fighting some Islamic Extremists who committed some bad acts, the US has gone and committed bad acts, made MORE Islamic Extremists, made things much worse, and the solution to solving all these problems is, apparently, to make the same mistakes AGAIN.

You say principles take a back seat, however if principles hadn't had taken a back seat, we wouldn't be having these problems where we supposedly need to put our principles (which we don't follow anyway) on the back seat.

Do you see the circle nature of all this.

NOW we need to go do more of this lacking principles shit, in order to make the situation WORSE so we can put the principles so far back we've lost everything we were supposedly fighting for in the first place.

We might as well all get hats with a big L on them now.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Hypotheticals? You mean people don't cover their faces at Halloween? Of course they do.

You make a law banning people covering their faces in public, then NOBODY at ANY TIME can cover their faces.

So when it's cold they can't cover their faces, when it's party time they can't cover their faces.

Or should we be honest about things here. The law was passed because the people covering their faces are Muslims, and "**** Muslims, we hate Muslims, Muslims don't have rights, **** Muslims and **** them again"

Right? That's all it's about, it's about Christians declaring their "superiority" over Muslims, making life for Muslims as difficult as possible and telling Muslims "**** YOU".

Nothing more than that.

Muslims can wear Halloween masks too. Your argument fails on every level.

No it doesn't.

So, Muslims can go around in Halloween masks instead of the Burka then? Then what will happen, some person will then decide to ban Halloween masks to get at Muslims.

A Muslim wants to cover their face with a burka, but can't. How is that freedom?

A Muslim won't have any less freedom than anyone else. Are you really so stupid you think freedom is "I can do anything I want to do"?

Did I say that freedom is do what you like?

Freedom is do what you like as long as it doesn't hurt others.

How about we ban Christians from having crosses? I mean, many Christians kill people, they're a potential threat, they have guns and things.

They can't complain that their freedom is being taken away, because freedom isn't "I can do anything I want to do", right?

SO, ban crosses. Why? Because we can.

Now we're arguing in circles since you are recalcitrant to see that burkas are nothing like crosses and present a national security concern that crosses cannot. I'm through with you, you hopeless moron.

How are burkas nothing like crosses? We're not talking about items here. Items are items. We're talking about the FREEDOM to choose what is important for you, and then to be able to do that, when it doesn't hurt anyone.

A woman wearing a burka doesn't hurt me in any way.
A woman wearing a cross doesn't hurt me in any way.

So why would I want to ban either?

 

[aris2chat]

IF this law actually does exist, then I would want to know if it has been used and applied, where and when, has it ever been challenged as to it's constitutional muster? These are all legitimate questions and do NOT make me an "airhead." I would be concerned about such a law as an American citizen because I would think it to be unconstitutional.

When I try to google "states in America where the burqa is banned." Nothing about any bans on burqas comes up for me.

>>Eleven states and the District of Columbia already ban face coverings, either outright or under certain conditions.<<

It's not a religious thing, but a security thing