Support January 6th Prisoners!

[Care4all]

RIGHT. The COURTS which have already proven themselves totally divorced from election disputes and clearly wanting to stay that way!

. The courts were not divorced from election disputes and never have been! Their rulings were legal rulings, within the law. Trump's lawyers had no evidence of fraud, only made up, speculations he lied about, outside the courtroom.

A WHOLE SIX WEEKS! Six weeks for dozens of legal disputes across multiple states! Meantime, it took how many years just for the J6 committee to gather their "evidence"? It took them how many YEARS to prosecute the OJ case? It took them how many YEARS to prosecute Bill Cosby? But for a stolen national election, you get 1.5 months.

that's the law that has been there over 200 years! Follow the law and constitution, or legally change them.... "We are a Nation of Laws, NOT men."

that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government

But when a long Train of Abuses and Usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a Design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their Right, it is their Duty, to throw off such Government.

. Utter bullshit!
you should read the declaration of independence and learn the meaning of tyranny!

Your lies about election fraud and Trump being the actual winner is utter bull crap and just don't cut it.....!

 

[sparky]

you should read the declaration of independence and learn the meaning of tyranny!

and you should read history's consistent insidious infiltration of it , usually advocated by sorts who can't see it happening....~S~

 

[Doug1943]

Beware of scammers!

VERIFY: Yes, some Capitol Riot defendants are being held without bond before their trials

A landmark decision on bond for Capitol Riot suspects handed down by the United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia is part of the reason why.

www.wusa9.com

Those kept without bail were the bad guys, about 30 of them, until their trials....they would be held in DC jails, not texas, and north Carolina jails etc, as some on this enormous list, or a PO box address....

That list is way way way too long for those held without bail, which was deserved for those who attacked policemen, and bashed in windows and doors and had dealings with planning the insurrection,...

Yes, you're right about scammers. And I'll admit that I just went on instinct with this 'Patriot Mail Project', because you could do something without sending them money. (Although, like every organization I know about, they would like you to send them money as well.)

So don't send the group money, but consider writing a letter to a prisoner.

Do it even if you're a liberal or Leftist... explain why you think what they did was wrong. Tell them Donald Trump betrayed them.

Who knows, you might even convert one. What a triumph that would be! You could set up a speaking tour for him or her -- "How the Evil Donald Trump Tricked Me into Prison".

Prisoners like to get letters, unless they're hateful. I know this from personal experience.

Also: you might think that a misdemeanor conviction and thirty days in a minimum-security facility is trivial, and it probably is if you're a 20 year old college dropout. But for some of these people, it's been devastating. I'll post a link to such an example later.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Yes, you're right. Same thing as Drag Queen Story Hour. "Defining Deviancy Down,' as a liberal Democrat Senator once put it. [https://nation.time.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/8/2012/03/defining-deviancy-down-amereducator.pdf]

Conservatives need to realize that our image, so mocked by superficial Leftist kiddies, of old, stodgy, cautious ... conservatives ... is actually a precious asset. We are supposed to be the 'Law and Order' party.

We have to reach the broad middle of America ... people who are neither hard-core Leftists or hard-core Rightists. If we are successfully portrayed as crazies, muttering conspiracy theorists stroking our AR15 ... we will lose them.

Let the Left, and its client groups, riot. Let them go out for mass shoplifting sprees in posh liberal neighborhoods. Let them demand the defunding of the police. We must uphold the rule of law and be seen to do so, so long as it is believed to still exist.

And I take it that 'entering a Capitol building uninvited', even for a peaceful occupation, would be seen by you as a 'grave crime.?

The problem is the left and the right try and portray an image of what they are, but they're just not. Firstly because the parties are too big to be anything, and secondly because both parties seem to be in it for themselves as individuals.
What's needed is Proportional Representation so people can actually have parties that stand for something that they can vote for.

Yes, threatening the fragile democracy is dangerous... image is important, the image that you simply do not attack the government physically....

 

[frigidweirdo]

No, if you're in politics, you have to have a side, if you're a serious person. You want to get the power of the state, so you can do the things you think need doing in society.

You can take that side because of reflexive, unthinking tribal loyalties. Or you can take it because of your experience and reading. Most people are probably where they are, politically, because of both.

There are people on the Left who once were on the Right, and vice versa. They changed sides because they decided they were wrong in their original allegiance, or perhaps out of opportunism because they thought they could do better personally on the other side. (We always like to attribute base motives to our enemies.)

Democratic politics is the alternative to using force to get our way. As Churchill said, it's the worst system in the world, except for all the others.

Sure, if you're a politicians, you need support. However that doesn't mean you have to accept what others say. If you're not a politician, you should really have your own views and choose the party that is closest, problem in the US is there are only two shit parties with views that, for things that actually matter, don't mean much.

Education, the economy, what do they stand for? Who knows?

 

[Care4all]

Yes, you're right about scammers. And I'll admit that I just went on instinct with this 'Patriot Mail Project', because you could do something without sending them money. (Although, like every organization I know about, they would like you to send them money as well.)

So don't send the group money, but consider writing a letter to a prisoner.

Do it even if you're a liberal or Leftist... explain why you think what they did was wrong. Tell them Donald Trump betrayed them.

Who knows, you might even convert one. What a triumph that would be! You could set up a speaking tour for him or her -- "How the Evil Donald Trump Tricked Me into Prison".

Prisoners like to get letters, unless they're hateful. I know this from personal experience.

Also: you might think that a misdemeanor conviction and thirty days in a minimum-security facility is trivial, and it probably is if you're a 20 year old college dropout. But for some of these people, it's been devastating. I'll post a link to such an example later.

The list is way too long. There were never that many people held without bond..... So its hard to know who is REAL or NOT?

 

[Care4all]

According to phone records, Steve Bannon spoke to Trump right before Steve said this to a handful of followers..

Before the election results.

Y'all have been scammed by Trump and his elected minions, and phony lawyers.

 

[Doug1943]

Anyone wanting to see folks shot dead when there is an alternative is not very smart and certainly has views that are not congruent to American values in my view. By the same token, cheering those who assaulted police officers is particularly shitty. You don't seem to have any problem with what they did--you're calling them "patriots" after all. Nothing could be further from the truth.

I agree that the people who are exulting about the death of others are not displaying the sort of attitudes we'd like to cultivate as we crawl up from our primitive animal past. (Our primitive ancestors, and even our not-so-distant ancestors, loved to watch their enemies suffer.) That goes for both sides. (Of course, the anonymity of the internet encourages this, especially from people who feel they can't make a reasoned argument to support their feelings.)

You say I "don't seem to have any problem with what they did". Perhaps you haven't read what I wrote earlier. It was, to steal a line from Talleyrand, "Worse than a crime, it was a blunder." An enormous gift to our enemies.

But I don't think they were like South Chicago ghetto thugs, either. They weren't doing it -- most of them -- out of a generalized hatred of authority, or to be able to steal something. They believed that they were enforcing democracy, not undermining it.

I believe, even if the election had been stolen, that what they did was the wrong way to do it. I've said that they should receive the same punishment that a group of Leftwingers who did the same thing would receive.

But, yes, they are our own. (By 'our', I mean American patriots.) They let themselves get suckered into doing something stupid. They'll have to pay the price. But we must support them in whatever way we can. Your side paid the bail for arrested violent rioters in the summer. We're doing, or should be doing, the same thing.

We could have a good discussion on when it's morally justified to use violence against the existing state (a separate discussion from whether it's tactically justified), but that's another discussion.

 

[Doug1943]

The list is way too long. There were never that many people held without bond..... So its hard to know who is REAL or NOT?

Okay ... when I had a quick look at the list, I saw that there were some people already out, but the organization said you might want to write them anyway.

So what's needed is a list of people who are still inside, and especially the ones doing hard time. And of course anyone thinking about writing them will want to do their due diligence and see what they were charged with, what their general character appears to be, etc.

By the way, I'm completely aware that there are some very unpleasant people 'on the Right', at least people who turn up in groups like the militia movement. Some are psychos, some ex-criminals, some of low intelligence and high impulsiveness. (I've spent the last three years or so studying the American militia movement and similar phenomena [like the 'Boogaloo' people] and could write a book about the sort of people patriots don't want anywhere near their organizations.

I believe most of the militia movement, and groups like the Three Percenters and Oath Keepers, are good people. But a lot of them are naive. Plus we have the problem of 'conspiracy thinking' in the US, which complicates things. Another discussion for a separate thread.

 

[Blaster]

This was not an insurrection. Not one person was convicted of insurrection despite what some folks think.

 

[candycorn]

I agree that the people who are exulting about the death of others are not displaying the sort of attitudes we'd like to cultivate as we crawl up from our primitive animal past. (Our primitive ancestors, and even our not-so-distant ancestors, loved to watch their enemies suffer.) That goes for both sides. (Of course, the anonymity of the internet encourages this, especially from people who feel they can't make a reasoned argument to support their feelings.)

You say I "don't seem to have any problem with what they did". Perhaps you haven't read what I wrote earlier. It was, to steal a line from Talleyrand, "Worse than a crime, it was a blunder." An enormous gift to our enemies.

But I don't think they were like South Chicago ghetto thugs, either. They weren't doing it -- most of them -- out of a generalized hatred of authority, or to be able to steal something. They believed that they were enforcing democracy, not undermining it.

I believe, even if the election had been stolen, that what they did was the wrong way to do it. I've said that they should receive the same punishment that a group of Leftwingers who did the same thing would receive.

But, yes, they are our own. (By 'our', I mean American patriots.) They let themselves get suckered into doing something stupid. They'll have to pay the price. But we must support them in whatever way we can. Your side paid the bail for arrested violent rioters in the summer. We're doing, or should be doing, the same thing.

We could have a good discussion on when it's morally justified to use violence against the existing state (a separate discussion from whether it's tactically justified), but that's another discussion.

Patriots don't resort to violence when they don't like the outcome of an election.

Until you come to that self-evident understanding...you're still calling them patriots, you have a vocabulary deficiency that prevents you from having a "good" discussion.

PS: Did you see anyone during the Summer waving "Biden" banners? So the characterization of somehow those thugs bing on my "side" is as incorrect as it is lazy.

 

[candycorn]

The list is way too long. There were never that many people held without bond..... So its hard to know who is REAL or NOT?

I had some actual hope that one of these so-called "patriot" sponsors would just lay it on the line about who is supposedly being held without due process. They are afraid to name anyone. Why? Because the second they do get specific...we can look up what the poor, helpless, misguided insurrectionist did and point out they are being treated fairly.

 

[Doug1943]

This was not an insurrection. Not one person was convicted of insurrection despite what some folks think.

Yes, it's dismaying how people throw words like 'treason' and 'insurrection' around without even trying to think about how they should be used. ('Treason' is a favorite word for rightwingers to describe Mr Biden's actions, a use even less justifiable than the Left's use of it to describe 6 January.)

The first problem is that social reality is more complicated than our words can precisely describe. It's a spectrum, with multiple dimensions, and words are discrete. And people use them to mean different things.

So rather than argue about whether 6 January 'was' an 'insurrection' or a 'riot' [and sentence about politics with the 'to be' verb should be scrutinized closely -- those interested can Google Alfred Korzybski and 'General Semantics'] -- let's look at all the possibilities of violence directed towards governments.

I wont' prejudge things by using words like 'riot' and 'insurrection' at first. I'll just call them 'mass actions', with the understanding that they are accompanied by violence -- as opposed to peaceful demonstrations or even sit-ins or other forms of civil disobedience. Then we can argue about what words might apply to what.

(1) A general mass action, to show unhappiness with something some branch of the government has done. In the US, this has, for the last fifty years, almost always been a Black thing, except for some "mini-riots" of students during the Vietnam war (I took part in one, in Bezerkeley, at that time.). There is no practical aim, other than "Don't do this sort of thing again" or "stop doing it" or a general expression of discontent.

The key thing is that there is no intent to replace the existing government by force.

The George Floyd riots, and all the other ghetto riots starting in the 1960s, were like this. Property is destroyed randomly -- ordinary shops and cars are set on fire. If the lumpenproletariat is involved, there will be looting. Random thugs may take a few shots at the police. If there is a racial angle, members of the hated race may be attacked just for being the wrong race.
[ Attack on Reginald Denny - Wikipedia ]

(2) A mass action that results from some particular thing the government (its agencies) are trying to do, or stop from being done. This sort of action has a definite aim (not of replacing the government, but of pressuring it do something specific, or to prevent it from doing something). In the 1930s, we had some labor union disputes like this.

The Minneapolis general strike of 1934 grew out of a strike by Teamsters against most of the trucking companies operating in Minneapolis, the major distribution center for the Upper Midwest. The strike began on May 16, 1934 in the Market District (the modern day Warehouse District). The worst single day was Friday, July 20, called "Bloody Friday", when police shot at strikers in a downtown truck battle, killing two and injuring 67. Ensuing violence lasted periodically throughout the summer.

[Minneapolis general strike of 1934 - Wikipedia]

(3) A mass action that aims to replace the existing government. In this case, there may or may not be masses of people in the streets, but there will an organized attempt to seize power. This will involve arresting or killing leaders of the existing government, seizing the news media, putting up roadblocks to stop enemy reinforcements moving, making sure the military (if it's not involved already) is neutralized.

(If it's the military alone doing the action, albeit with the support of a section of the population, it's not really in the category of mass actions we're talking about here ... we call that a 'coup' or a 'putsch'. Latin America saw lots of these, often with the support of the American government.)

If the recent Brazilian events prove to have had some serious organization behind them, aiming to replace the Lula government,

The classic account of this kind of mass action is Trotsky's History of the Russian Revolution. [ Leon Trotsky: The History of the Russian Revolution (1930) ] A classic account of failed attempts at such actions is "A. Neuberg's [it's an alias] Armed Insurrection.
[ Armed Insurrection - A. Neuberg (1928) ]
(Trotsky shows you how to do it. The other book -- a collective effort by various Comintern leaders -- shows you how not to do it. The secret? You must wait until conditions are right.)

(4) A mass action that is a hopeless, romantic gesture. The Easter Rising in 1916 in Ireland was like this. Had the insurrectionists waited until Britain declared conscription in Ireland, and had they first taken other steps to swing public opinion their way ... they may well have won. [ Introduction - The Hay Plan & Conscription In Ireland During WW1 - Waterford County Museum ]
It wasn't accidental that this Sacrifice of Irish patriots took place during Easter. But it was a waste.

I've probably missed some other variants.

So, what was 6 January? I think it is closest to being (2). Not a general expression of discontent, not an attempt to put in a new government, but an attempt to make it do something it wouldn't otherwise have done. 'Riot' doesn't quite fit, because it had a definite, focussed aim, but neither does 'insurrection', because it didn't aim to replace the existing government.

Maybe someone can come up with a new word.

A note to patriots: read that book by Trotsky referenced above -- you can download it free. You will deepen your understanding of the times we're headed for, and how to get through them successfully, enormously.

 

[okfine]

I'm afraid you missed a lot of English classes. (On second thought, you probably wouldn't have learned anything if you had been there.)

We can use the word 'war' metaphorically -- the 'War against Cancer', the 'War against Drugs', the 'Global War on Terror'. But for serious people, words should be used as precisely as possible.

When we're talking about legal charges, this is especially true. So words like 'treason', 'terrorism' and similar highly-charged terms, need to be used precisely. (Mr Trump wanted to legally label AntiFa a 'terrorist' group, in the same category as the Weatherman. Wrong.)

Nor even metaphorically was the 6 January riot 'war against the Constitution'. To the extent that there was a rational purpose behind it, it was an attempt to pressure Congressmen not to certify the election. There are people who think the Constitution is outdated, written by heterosexual male white landowners and slaveowners ... but they're not on the Right.

(Although it's a great pleasure -- we need some laughs in these gloomy times -- to see a Leftist speaking well of our Constitution, even if it's just for tactical reasons, the same way that the liberals on the New York City Council who honoed the Soviet spy Ethel Rosenberg would no doubt, for the moment, call themselves 'patriots', if they found it to their advantage politically.)

What is your purpose on this site other than trying to get others to join your militia hate group?

 

[okfine]

I don't disagree with you, but I think you should add a third category: people who see what's happening, and who then decide to resist it ... effectively.

Single individuals can see what's happening, but lack the knowledge to reffectively resist, or even to do the best thing in circumstances of a breakdown of the social order.

They don't know the law, they don't know how to write an effective press release, they don't know how to talk to people who may be winnable but who do not now agree with them, they don't know how to crawl under barbed wire or treat a sucking chest wound, or deal with a downed and possibly live power line.

But get a group of a few dozen ordinary Americans together, and most of these skills will be found. Get a dozen or two of these groups organized in each state, and the missing skills will be found, and their essentials taught. We're clearly heading into what may be very challenging times, to be euphemistic.

The possibility of two wars with nuclear powers, economic crisis, another pandemic, the effects of global warming ... all on a society whose sinews are being eaten away by the Left.

So we must organize.

We do not yet have an organization of such people at the national level. So we have to start at the local level, and build organizations that can later unite nationally. A good start has been made by these people, former Oathkeepers in Arizona:

YCPT

YCPT.org

Have a look at their website -- you will learn a lot. They're expanding nationally, but this chapter, in Yavapai, is the most developed.

Yes. Take a look.

YCPT Archives - MilitiaWatch

MilitiaWatch writing about the Yavapai County Preparedness Team, a militant prepper Oath Keepers affiliate. They remain quite active in Arizona.

militia.watch

 

[okfine]

No problem. Be advised though, if that is a link to a donation site, the spam filter may kill it or it might get reported as spam requiring an "approval" and an overzealous mod (not me) might spam clean, instead of simply deleting the link. Spam clean remove the message and the messenger, like they never exist.

That poster is trying to get donations for a far RW militia who is headed by Jim Arroyo. These people are aligned with the Oath Keepers and that convicted one eyed guy Stewart Rhodes.

 

[Doug1943]

Patriots don't resort to violence when they don't like the outcome of an election.

Until you come to that self-evident understanding...you're still calling them patriots, you have a vocabulary deficiency that prevents you from having a "good" discussion.

PS: Did you see anyone during the Summer waving "Biden" banners? So the characterization of somehow those thugs bing on my "side" is as incorrect as it is lazy.

No, the summer rioters were not typical Biden voters, although the ones who weren't too drugged up to vote in November no doubt voted for him. In fact, most of the ones who were literate probably despised Biden. But they're on your side of the barricades, which is why Kamala Harris said, smiling,

"“They’re not gonna stop. They’re not gonna stop and this is a movement, I’m telling you. Everyone should take note of that, on both levels, that they’re not going to let up — and they should not. And we should not.”

And Harris encouraged people to donate to a fund that bailed rioters ouf of jail. (It's really amuzing to watch the so-called 'Fact Checker' site SNOPES twist and turn to get around this fact. Read their whitewash for yourself:
[ Did Kamala Harris Bail Out 'Violent Rioters' During George Floyd Protests? ] )

But we must be fair. Pelosi did condemn the summer riots ... after a while, when she realized that they weren't popular with middle America: [ Pelosi condemns rioters – but 'only as polls tighten after "$2b in damage"' ] She's not stupid.

No, the summer rioters were not your typical Democrat, some of whom, at least, are still patriots. That is, they don't despise or sneer at their own country. But all the 6 January rioters, deluded and wrong as they were, most definitely love their country. And that makes them patriots.

By the way, there is the possibility of demagogy here. I don't regard love of country as some supreme virtue, above all others. Its just an extended version of self-love, in fact: me, my family, my clan, my tribe ... and now, my country. Terrible crimes have been committed by patriots acting out of patriotism. The good aspect of it is that it is a leap beyound kin-altruism, at least in a multi-racial country like the US.

In fact the Old Left's ideal of international human brotherhood is a higher ideal. However, at this point in human history, the material conditions for its realization are absent. People cannot jump over their own heads.

And the peculiar circumstances of the United States -- its golden geography, its very fortunate history in terms of which tribe of Europeans took it away from the original inhabitants -- makes it of central importance for the defense of civilization in the world today.

So, hooray for American patriotism, and for Americans who love their country, regardless of the crimes and blunders a minority of them committed on 6 January. ( Note that 6 January was, by the standards of the media, a 'mostly peaceful protest'. 2500 rioters out of 120 000 protestors -- that's about 2% of the protestors. The majority of those arrested -- 600 out of 700 when this estimate was made -- were unaffiliated to any group. These were mainly patriotic individuals who made a bad mistake. )

We can apportion some blame to Trump for some of his language -- although he called on the protestors to remain peaceful, a more competent leader would have organized stewards for the march to the Capitol to make sure that provocateurs or crazies couldn't stampede some of the crowd into doing what they did.

Patriots know that these people are our own. May we soon organize ourselves and avoid all such traps in the future.

 

[White 6]

That poster is trying to get donations for a far RW militia who is headed by Jim Arroyo. These people are aligned with the Oath Keepers and that convicted one eyed guy Stewart Rhodes.

James Arroyo – US Army Ranger, Part of Operation Eagle Claw, Blog of Shame

BACKGROUND James Steven Arroyo comes to us from Chino Valley, AZ. He is 58 y/o as of December 2018. Jim Arroyo, as the leader of the Chino Valley / Yavapai Valley Chapter of Oathkeepers, clai…

militaryphony.com

I didn't review the link after he got it right, and it appeared to be about writing to the locked-up anti-American assholes, the system did not trigger and to my knowledge nobody reported. If you are wanting to report though the normal process, I will put on my less helpful hat, examine and denature/delete the link if necessary.

 

[Doug1943]

Yes. Take a look.

YCPT Archives - MilitiaWatch

MilitiaWatch writing about the Yavapai County Preparedness Team, a militant prepper Oath Keepers affiliate. They remain quite active in Arizona.

militia.watch

Whoa, thanks for that link. I didn't know about this group. They've got some very useful information. Yes, I've been pushing the YCPT (Yavapai County Protection Team), and similar groups in their national organization, for over a year now.

They've got the right idea. I've been in touch with them for a while now. (They helped me get a bad actor -- one of those people who does the work of the enemy even if he's "sincere" -- out of a national sort-of militia group.)

Both the Oathkeepers (nationally) and the Three Percenters are tragedies. The right idea, but poor execution. We must learn from their experience.

 

[Chillicothe]

A lot of people use the word 'treason' without knowing the least thing about what it means legally.

I agree. "Treason" likely doesn't apply in this situation.
But 'Insurrection" and 'Sedition" manifestly do.
I prefer 'insurrectionist'....'cause it is easier to type than 'seditious conspirator'.
But that's just me.



----------------------------------------------------------------------------

But they didn't set things on fire, or bring guns

Well, yeah, some of them did bring guns. The record is replete with some guns being confiscated, others being observed on the person of rioters by Capitol Police. Even the J6 Committee offered evidence that guns were being carried by members of the crowd at the Ellipse. Some carriers refused to enter the area because of the metal detectors.
A little googling can bring up any number of publications reporting on the evidence for firearms at the Capitols and environs.
The confiscation of guns though......was surprisingly small. But, as the police readily admit----- they were so overwhelmed by the numbers of attackers and fending off the baseball bats, MACE sprays, nail-tipped flagpoles, tasers, various thrown objects that actually arresting and handcuffing the worst offenders was beyond their abilities and their numbers at the time of the attacks.

Those that were arrested happened late in the attack when re-enforcements finally began to arrive on the scene. It is widely ....widely ....acknowledged that many many performing criminal acts simply walked away that day. Hence, volunteer organizations like SeditionHunters* have sprung up to hunt-down those whose mugs were captured on cameras or posted on social media sites.
May SeditionHunters keep up their good work. And the FBI. And the DOJ.
Bring 'em all to justice. And punish 'em as their actions deserve.
IMHO
*Oh, by the way, there was interesting reportage recently...from one of the militia trials where an officer was asked why he didn't fire upon the attackers. He said.....he was afraid of igniting a 'firestorm' of bullets as the attackers pulled out their own guns and fired back. He said there were so many of the attackers and he couldn't have that much ammunition on him. I thought that was a telling observation. IMHO
* Perp Sheet
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Of course, it's human to take pleasure in the suffering of our enemies.

We know.
It's called schadenfreude.
--------------------------------------------------------------

Trying to overturn the legal, certified results of we the people's vote by interfering with the constitutional process of counting and entering the State elector results, and trying to replace each state's certified electors with fraudulent electors, and beating up the police, crapping in the halls of congress, bashing in and breaking windows and doors to the capitol or hanging Mike Pence is seditious, and just plain wrong.

Ditto that.
Well said.
We all....all of us patriots...can agree with Care4all.
True that.
-----------------------------------------------------------------