Stimulus Checks 2? Or "Go Forth and DIE!"

[Ray From Cleveland]

If my house is dirty, I clean it. I don't move to another house. In arable land and natural resources, our country is the richest in the world. If some other countries can't make socialism work, it is because of two reasons. Those countries aren't the U.S. and in the U.S. we have a lot of White people.

No, it doesn't work because there is no real reward system under Socialism. Everybody is basically the same whether you empty garbage cans for a living or are an engineer.

Capitalism is just the opposite. It's a complete reward system, and that's why we are the richest country in the world. In a capitalist system, the harder you work, the more money you earn. Investing your money earns more money as well, and that is the path to riches for many people.

Next, your ideas about government and freedom are wrong. When you speak of government, you are basically talking about big business and corporations. Because they are the ones who actually pay to have those politicians put into office. And you can believe that they expect to get what they pay for. I also remember paraphrasing what Calvin Coolidge once said before. "The business of government IS business." We are already slaves. To big business. Is that what the founding fathers intended? But that aside, they weren't holy gods who's infallible words should be followed for all time. Things change. We have to change with them.

You are not a slave to big business. What's stopping you from starting your own lawn care business? What's stopping you from getting an education in HVAC and working for yourself, or bricklaying, or carpentry work, or remodeling???? Working for somebody else is the standard because people will not take the time and energy to work for themselves. Too much paperwork, too much fooling around with taxes, too much figuring out. No, it's not easy, but it can be done.

We don't pay to have people win office, voters put them in. If big business has such power to put people into office, they sure are not getting their moneys worth. Before Trump, we had the highest corporate tax rate in the world. And big business supported Hillary as she collected three times the donations that Trump did, and she didn't get that pile of cash from homeless people.

I doubt if even outright communism works that way. Some jobs are just more important to society in general than others. Naturally, those doing the more important jobs would be deserving of a little more. That the government would provide. Next, fuck greed. You don't need greed to get things done. Next thing, you'll be giving me some bullshit about freedom. I will tell you how capitalism really works. If you can fuck somebody over to get more, then it's ok. And where it ends up is with everybody trying to fuck everybody over.

Next, human caused global warming is a reality. Who is creating the pollution? Big business. Is there anything I can do about it? No. Why? Because I'm a slave. Next, at one time I was just too poor to work. That might be too difficult for some asshole born with a middle class silver spoon in his mouth to believe. But it's a reality. No doubt you would have expected me to jump through any kind of hoops to get employment. But to what end. After paying for all those hoops, such as a car to get back and forth to work, I would still end up with just about nothing left over. Why go through all that trouble just to end up at where I started from.

Next, we live in a plutocracy. It is the wealthy who band together and have the people they want put into office. And in that, they get their money's worth. And then some. That is why the top 1% owns around 95% of the wealth. Also, you think that after Reagan and the two Bush's that corporations were doing badly? You must be hallucinating.

Also, do you know what most politicians are? Lawyers. Or as I choose to call them, professional liars. Republican or democrat, they're just two different sides of the same corrupt coin.

I'll start with your last point first: The reason the top 1% are where they are is not because of government or returned favors. They are at the top 1% by constantly investing, reinvesting, and expanding their enterprise. There is no such thing as "the wealth" because wealth is not finite, it's infinite. The left would have us all believe that the only reason some have too little is because others have too much. There is no truth to that, unless I go for a car loan, and they tell me they'd love to give me one, but the rich have all the money. Or I go to my employer for a raise, and he tells me he'd love to give me a raise, but he doesn't have the money because the rich have it all.

I was not born with a sliver spoon in my mouth. My father was a bricklayer, and my mother did various jobs in the fast food industry. In fact I worked with my father on side jobs since I was 11 years old. Nobody can be too poor to work. Working requires little money. How did I get ahead by working and you didn't? I'd like to know that. In fact many people get ahead by working. Unless you can find a way to make money at home, or hit the lottery, that's the only way to get ahead in this country.

Yes, greed is what motivates people. Greed in itself is not inherently bad. There are many good things about greed. Greed is what makes us get up and work in the morning. Greed is what motivates us to invest and save. Greed is how companies started and expanded.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Its time to get back to work. The virus is waning if we can keep it going down.
The summer heat is almost here. Lets hope the virus keeps slowing, and slowing, and slowing....
View attachment 336171

From what I have been seeing on the news, many states are reopening even though the cases of coronavirus is still increasing. Also, how many instances of coronavirus in this country did it take to get the whole ball rolling to begin with. 2 or 3?

Then why isn't the pandemic still going out of control in the NYC area?
Its going down, with 1,417,350 US cases, how can it go down with so many active cases, not just 1 or 2?

Because of quarantine. With the 2 or 3 who got the whole plague rolling here, there was no quarantine.

Yes there most certainly was a quarantine here, for travelers from China, but not from Europe?!
Quarantine? Not all of the 1.4m are quarantined, so why isn't the pandemic still going out of control in the NYC area?
You did not answer this question: What's a worse condition, 1.4m cases or a few?
We have the 1.4m now and the number of cases is going down, why? How can that be?

President Chump just didn't handle things well. And he still isn't.

Really? So what should he have done? I'll show you why he couldn't or didn't.

Well, president Chump could have started out by not calling the coronavirus a hoax at the beginning.

He didn't call it a hoax, he called what Democrats were trying to do with it another one of their hoaxes. Of course this was before we had any idea how this thing would impact us. But lets say he never made that statement. How would that have changed our current plight?

He called it a hoax. Next, it would have changed our current plight by taking it seriously from the beginning. And there would be over 30,000 fewer dead people.

President Trump is a former businessman, not a former scientist or medical expert. He took the advice from our various health agencies and his medical team to make decisions. Even in late February, Dr. Fauci made a public statement that this virus was nothing of great concern; go out and live life as you always have, and there is no need to use gloves or masks.

When the WHO made a public statement about their concern of this virus in late January, President Trump took action the next day. No, he didn't shutdown the country, but he did take a few precautionary measures, and increased those measures as new information because available, and his team and agencies were able to form a better opinion.

Today the CDC made an announcement that 35% of the Covid cases were with asymptomatic people. That means this virus likely has been with us much longer than we thought. Asymptomatic people have the virus and don't become ill because of it. However they are just as contagious as those that did get ill. That means these people were hugging their friends and family, shaking hands with strangers, drinking at bars and eating at restaurants, squeezing fruit and vegetables at their grocery store.

As for the non-asymptomatic people, the symptoms are similar to a bad cold or early flu, which a lot of people never seek medical attention for.

Therefore your theory about saving 30,000 people is your opinion, not fact.

Saving over 30,000 people with earlier action is what they said on the news last night. But admittedly, you can't always believe the news. For example, they say that Armaud Arbery was murdered. Though like it or not, president Chump started out by calling the whole thing a hoax. And it seems every step of the way, he has been dragging his feet. As for his "experts," they are on his payroll. They will basically say what they're told to say. Including the CDC. Don't believe it? Watch the documentary, "What lies upstream."

Your documentaries are not Gospel. They are trying to get you to watch their programming for profit.

Yes, if we started in September of last year, we could have saved tens of thousands of lives, but who knew what could happen back then? Trump didn't drag his feet. Our agencies are mired in red tape, and they practice these unnecessary prolonged actions that the President is not in control of.

In late February of this year, Cuomo was urging people to not worry about this silly virus. Go out, shop, dine, and carry on with your normal life. DeBlazio sent the same message to NYC residents around that same time. Piglosi was telling people to visit Chinatown. NOBODY KNEW!!!! The first two weeks of March, the House Democrats were trying to pass a bill stripping the President of his exclusive right to issue travel bans.

Bottom line is armchair quarterbacks like yourself can make any claim they desire. I always said if you want to hit todays lottery, buy tomorrows newspaper. Easier said than done.

Did you see any of those documentaries? Until you do, you can't have any kind of opinion about them. Next, nobody said anything about September. They were talking about early March.

You leftists always pull this stunt. So let me be clear up front: If I had to watch every documentary a leftists tells me to watch, watch every movie, read every book you people read, I wouldn't have time to come here and discuss politics. If you have a short article, sure, if I have time, I'll go through it. But I'm not going to spend hours and hours to reply to each and every leftist comment. You wouldn't read any book or watch any documentary I suggest either. Nobody has that kind of time.

You should listen to me. Your intellectual superior. I have no interest in steering you wrong. And you shouldn't assume I'm trying to do so. Take the documentary I mentioned called, "What lies upstream." I will tell you some of what you don't want to find out about yourself. First, companies aren't required to tell what the toxic effects of any chemical they make are. And the can lie about it! The CDC is fine with this because their leadership is appointed by the pro-business leadership of the government. Republican or democrat. Also, do you know how chemical companies get rid of their toxic waist? Basically, they flush it down the toilet! And it is perfectly legal!!! So what is the point of you having the time to say things here when all you have to speak about is shit to begin with.

Oh please, so you watch these "documentaries" and conclude they are all Gospel? WTF would make you think that? I always question what's told to me from somebody trying to make money by getting my attention, even if it's something that leans towards my political persuasion.

Facebook is loaded with conspiracy theories that after enough attention, is proven false by another entity. And as my intellectual superior, you should know by now that what you call toxic waist is spelled W-A-S-T-E, not W-A-I-S-T.

Thanks for letting me know about a typo. But as far as I can see, correcting my grammar is the best you've got. As for the conspiracy angle, they talked to the experts. People with PhD's in their particular fields. Top experts. As in there being just about no other people on the planet that may know more. You may not think so. But such people are well worth listening to.

Another documentary I mentioned to you was, "Where to invade next." Here is a piece of information from it that you can consider to be bullshit at your leisure. Apparently, Norway has the most highly educated students in the world. At the very least, they are in the top three. You might find how they accomplished this to be interesting. They eliminated homework. It seems counterintuitive. But it is a reality. In school, how much homework did you do. I didn't do any. Maybe that explains my intelligence.

Since you studied it so intensely, tell me, does Norway have anything comparable to our teachers unions? Does Norway have three months of vacation from school every year?

Somebody being an expert does not mean they are not biased. We have scientist who believe in global warming, and others who believe it's BS. We have "experts" who believe there is life on other planets, and others who do not. We have engineers who said that 911 was an inside job. Others say those people are FOS.

Being an expert doesn't mean you are always right. Speaking of which, I was never a spellcheck cop. But when somebody tires to degrade me by claiming their intellectual superioriority, the least you can do is proofread your post.

Why not watch the documentary, "Where to invade next" and find out. You would be dumbfounded, absolutely blown away by what people in European countries get that we don't. Though as Michael Moore says, things over there aren't perfect. But he's there to pick the flowers. Not the weeds. He was there to invade those countries and take back to the U.S. the spoils of his invasion. As in the good ideas. The things that have been demonstrated to work. At least over there. But maybe with out large negro and mexican population, they wouldn't work here. But it would be well worth impaling and deporting the hindrance for many other reasons. Also, I wasn't trying to degrade you. Just some of the things you talk about. Even a genius could probably be brainwashed. (But not me)

You would be dumbfounded, absolutely blown away by what people in European countries get that we don't.

A lower standard of living, smaller cars, smaller homes, a smaller economy.

They also have 8 bucks a gallon for gasoline.

But their societies weren't structures around the automobile. Unlike ours. Here, we have a lot of suburban sprawl. People live so way far out that if there was ever an EMP that killed cars, they would find it very difficult to get food.

You are putting the cart, in front of the horse.

The whole reason we have suburban sprawl.... is directly because Americans are wealthy enough to have a car, and desire to have a house farther away from the noisy crime infested inner city areas.

Yeah, their societies are less structured around automobiles....... because they couldn't afford to drive automobiles all the time.

If you take those people, and bring them to the US, where they earn more money, and pay less taxes, you what those people's from those cultures do?

They buy the biggest SUV they can, and buy a house in the suburbs.

They would do the same thing in Europe... they just can't. They can't afford it, because they are poor.

I had this couple from Laos. Escaped the communists in Laos. Talk about running through the woods, being shot at by police. Freaky stuff.

Made it to the US embassy, came to the US. Didn't know English. Had to learn English. Got training on how to do CNC work. Got jobs, making $100,000 a year. (combined).

This tiny Laos woman, bought herself, a Ford Excursion, and they bought a house in the suburbs.

I asked her if she would go back to Laos. She's wants to, because she loved the people, and the land, but if she went back, she'd be poor. The government takes all the money.

This is the reality throughout all Europe.

Why do you think the Yellow Vest protest happened? They have all that free stuff you mentioned. You know what they don't have? Money. Their poor. Because the government takes all the money. The thing that triggered the protest, was the tax hike by the government to improve social services.

They are poor. I've been there. I've seen them living in 600 sqft apartments with no air conditioning, and hanging cloths up on wires inside their 600 sqft apartment. I've seen it.

Yeah, their societies are not built around automobiles, because they can't afford automobiles. Even those that have them, can't afford to drive them.

Economically, (for instance) we ARE a third world country compared to Germany. Given their size, when it comes to the yearly value of their exports, they leave the U.S. in the dust. They have the ability to have anything they want and any size they want. But just from how their society functions, they apparently don't feel they need it.

As for the couple from Laos, who let them assholes into our country. I was watching some show one time where they were talking to people from Laos. Some of their cultural beliefs are pretty despicable compared to what White people believe. What our country should have done is leave them in the hell hole they created for themselves and train a White person to do CNC work. (Whatever that is)

Economically, (for instance) we ARE a third world country compared to Germany.

The evidence I presented, proves that your claim is false.

As for the couple from Laos, who let them assholes into our country. I was watching some show one time where they were talking to people from Laos. Some of their cultural beliefs are pretty despicable compared to what White people believe. What our country should have done is leave them in the hell hole they created for themselves and train a White person to do CNC work. (Whatever that is)

Well... we disagree on that. I'm more like Trump, in that I'm all in favor of legal immigration.

Honestly, I'm sure that white people like you describe yourself exist in society somewhere, I can't say that I've ever met any white person with the views you described.

But then again, I'm conservative, from a family of conservatives, from a church of conservatives, with conservative relatives.

In short, we're good people. I don't know people like you. So.. I would be polite, but I don't associate with people like you. I only meet people like you described yourself, on the internet. I remember some guy spouted that crap on Facebook. Don't know how he was even on my friends list, but I fixed that pretty quick.

But we're good people. We hate criminals obviously. You come here legally... only.. But if you follow our laws, I'm all for it. My last roomate was a Muslim from Bangladesh. He wanted to rent an apartment until his wife arrived. We (me and my parents together) went to his citizenship ceremony. Of course entirely legal immigration.

So no, I don't identify with people like you at all.

And I presented evidence to the contrary of yours. I told somebody around here about something I came across once. It had to do with the yearly value of the exports of the U.S. compared to Germany. Germany is a much smaller country with few natural resources. Their population is also around 81 million. The U.S. is a far larger country with a lot of arable land and many natural resources. Our population is also around 319 million people. The value of our exports for one particular year was around 1 trillion, 600 billion. For Germany it was 1 trillion, 400 million. So I am right.

You also say you support foreign scab scum. Just like president Chump. In that, you are outright evil. I have a book to suggest to you. But I doubt if you would ever read it.

We exported about $2.5 trillion last year, Germany exported $1.5 trillion.
Why does Germany suck so much?

I looked again. I found that the U.S. exported 1 trillion, 645 billion in goods. Germany exported 1 trillion, 489 billion in goods. And as I said, Germany is a far smaller country. The reason why food prices are higher in Europe is because the place doesn't have nearly as much farm land or places for cattle to graze as the U.S. Also, the total value of what Germany imports is 1 trillion, 236 billion. The total value of what the U.S. imports is 3.1 trillion. If any country sucks, it is ours.

View attachment 341999

The land being used for farming in the EU, has declined.

This is why they are importing food more and more. If I had to guess, I would wager this has to do with government interference, but that's just a guess.

Also, the total value of what Germany imports is 1 trillion, 236 billion. The total value of what the U.S. imports is 3.1 trillion. If any country sucks, it is ours.

I disagree with the way the previous conversation was going.

You and me, both own a store. I make millions. I go to your store, and I can buy everything in the store. This is because the products you sell are cheap... and I make millions.

You barely make minimum wage. When you come to my store, you can barely afford to buy one item from my store. This is because I make expensive products, and you are poor.

If we drew a line between us, and called my said Andy-Country, and your side (fittingly) Quarantine-Country.... It would look like I imported millions from you, while you imported a hundred bucks from me.

Based on what, would you claim "I suck" because I'm rich, wealthy, and can afford everything I want from others?

Imports are not a negative. In fact, they are a positive.

Rich people buy.... read Import... more from poor people, because poor people are poor, and rich people are rich.

The US buys... imports.... more from China, because the US is rich, and China is poor.

Very few wealthy countries, export more than they import, and it is usually tied to energy... natural gas, oil, and so on.

First, let's look at the UK. They have around 63 million people. If the whole country was to switch to an agrarian lifestyle, they could only raise enough food to feed about 8 million people. "Government interference" has nothing to do with it. How much land you have does. Now I will make a specist (racist) statement. Given this fact, only the lowest of lowlife traitorous scum would be letting lowlife sand negro scum emigrate to there. Or here. Or anywhere.

As for international trade, it just shouldn't be happening. Especially with the wage slave country China. As anybody can see, it is too one sided. In favor of China. If any trade isn't equal, (fair) then it is criminal. And what can somebody from China making 50 cents an hour buy from and American who makes 8 dollars an hour.

Also, there are species of ant that take other species as ant as slaves to do their work for them. They evolved to the point where the slaver ants can't even feed themselves without the slave ants feeding them. To me, it is the slaver ants who are the real slaves. Another thing is that a long time ago, Europe was hungry for Chinese porcelain and silks. This caused European countries to bleed money. And the Europeans didn't make anything that the Chinese needed. This cause European countries to export opium to China to get some money back. This led to the Opium Wars. And the Chinese didn't do so well.

First, let's look at the UK. They have around 63 million people. If the whole country was to switch to an agrarian lifestyle, they could only raise enough food to feed about 8 million people.

then you said:

As for international trade, it just shouldn't be happening.

So... in your world, 50 Million people and more, should just die.
That makes you worse than the "lowlife traitorous scum" you claim to hate.

Another thing is that a long time ago, Europe was hungry for Chinese porcelain and silks. This caused European countries to bleed money. And the Europeans didn't make anything that the Chinese needed. This cause European countries to export opium to China to get some money back. This led to the Opium Wars. And the Chinese didn't do so well.

I've read about this time period, a dozen times. That is not true.

Chinese and Europeans were trading in goods.

The cause of the Opium wars, was that China decided they didn't need to trade, and closed trade with Europe.

The result of that actions was that hundreds of businesses that were built on trade with China, were now stuck without work. Specifically I'm referring to the people who engaged in trade routes.

If you the owner of trade ships, and the biggest trade partner just closed your business.... what do you do?

Well, you can just close, and go bankrupt. Or if you can't sell things legally, perhaps you can sell stuff illegally.

The key with black market goods, is that it can't be bread. You can't sell something that doesn't bring in a huge profit, because doing smuggling is of course risky. Your ship could be caught at the port. The navy could find you. You could lose a ton of money, if the authorities find you.

So if you are going to smuggle something, it has to be something that will bring in the money. Opium was the commodity of choice, because it brought in enough money to offset the risk of smuggling.

If China had not closed trade, all of those ships and traders would not have switched to Opium, and the Opium wars would never have happened.

You have the worst history rewriting I have ever seen. Someone really screwed up your education bad.

Do you enjoy being so full of shit. The UK not being able to feed itself is a whole different topic. As for international trade, I was talking about what the U.S. imports. Unless it is something we don't have or have very much of, like neodymium, we shouldn't be importing anything. If we can't make it here, we don't need it. And there isn't anything we can't make here.

As to your crap about the opium wars, do have nothing better to do than tell lies? You don't sell opium to a country because they won't let you buy their goods. And I don't think China ever did strop exports. Because everybody likes money.

Do you enjoy being so full of shit.

No, but I enjoy talking to people who are... which is why I'm here.

The UK not being able to feed itself is a whole different topic. As for international trade, I was talking about what the U.S. imports.

You brought up the UK not being able to feed itself. You brought up that international trade should not exist.

If the UK didn't have trade, millions would die. Why you angry at me, for you falling into a trap of your own words?

Unless it is something we don't have or have very much of, like neodymium, we shouldn't be importing anything. If we can't make it here, we don't need it. And there isn't anything we can't make here.

Every single country that has engaged in that ideology has declined into poverty. Trade is inherently mutually beneficial. If it wasn't, we wouldn't engage in it.

Reducing something that is mutually beneficial, will harm us.

You do realize that the biggest legislative action in 1930, was the Smoot-Hawley Tariff that killed nearly all international trade with the US.

The results of harming trade, are universally negative.

Again, why would we put sanctions on Russia to prevent trade, if reducing trade was beneficial? Because trade is beneficial. That's why we put sanctions on countries doing something wrong.

As to your crap about the opium wars, do have nothing better to do than tell lies?

I've read about it for 10 years, from a wide variety of sources. I am confident what I said was the truth.

You don't sell opium to a country because they won't let you buy their goods.

Sure you do. In fact we have seen this repeatedly throughout the world. If you prevent legal ways of making money, the result is universally that people resort to illegal ways.

Jamaica for example. After Michael Manley engaged in socialism, and clamped down on business, the result was that people started selling illicit drugs and smuggling.

Tale of Two Islands - Econlib

Stanford University economists Peter Blair Henry and Conrad Miller recently published an interesting NBER Working Paper in which they compare economic policy and economic performance between Jamaica and Barbados. Henry and Miller point out that in Jamaica, the People’s National Party rose to...

www.econlib.org

Tale of Two Island, by Peter Blair Henry, whose father was an immigrant from Jamaica.

Another example would be Venezuela.

Drug smugglers found a backdoor to Europe — through Venezuela

With drug trafficking through Venezuela skyrocketing amid its collapse, its Caribbean islands have increasingly served as a way station for smugglers.

www.businessinsider.com

Since the socialism has destroyed legal methods of making a living in Venezuela, drug running and cartels have been moving into Venezuela at an exceptional rate.

So yes, absolutely after China cut off trade with Europe, the people in the trade business, moved from legal trade, to illegal trade.

That is exactly what happened.

Do you want to end poverty? Do away with money. That will fix the problem. Just have the government provide everything. I wonder what bullshit you will come up for with that.

Okay, if government provides everything, what's the point of going to work in the morning? What's the point in getting an advanced education? What would be the point of developing a new product or technology?

Don't be stupid and try to make what I said out to be something different. Just because the government provides everything doesn't mean you don't have to work. But for the time being, going to work can be deadly. That is the whole point of this thread. Also, remember that status thing I brought before that you didn't have anything to do with anything? People are always going to want more. As for being a doctor, there may also be some altruism to that. But otherwise, wanting a better position in life is a good reason for anybody to go to school. As for new products, a government rule would say that over time, they should be improved. As for technology, I don't think it's even possible to be a scientist without improving on that.

All I did was ask a simple question: If government provided everything, what is the point of working? Since your idea is no monetary exchange, and everything simply provided, why work to create money you can't use? After all, your idea is that government will provide at no cost to you whether you work or not.

People don't spend all that time in education because they need a higher status. Money is the motivator. Sure, you have to have a lot of intelligence and a passion for that kind of work, but money certainly makes that decision for you when deciding on what to take up in college.

Let's say I had the ability to create a wonderful new product. This product would change the lives of most people, like a cell phone, or cable television, or big screens. Now, my invention would take a lot of time, I'd have to borrow a lot of money, I would have to take some risks, but if all works out, I'd end up filthy rich. Why would I do that if government would take my invention and just provide it to people? There would be no market to drive up the price; no supply and demand. Government would say we are taking over your idea, producing it ourselves, and you still get your usual monthly stipend.

Time is getting short today. So I'll make this brief. If you get free stuff, somebody has to make it. Somebody else would also receive for free what you make. And so on and so on. Next, MONEY = STATUS.

Yes, money does equal status, and that's why people work, invest, and open up businesses. But nobody goes to college for many years just to be called Doctor, especially if you only make as much as a UAW worker on an assembly line.

A doctor would make a little more than what a UAW worker used to. These days, the power of unions is pretty much gone. Because if any workers put up any fuss, they just ship their jobs to China.

A doctor needs to make a lot more money than a UAW worker. Otherwise why would he or she become a doctor, and instead, work for an auto plant?

 

[quarantine]

Just have the government provide everything

i want them to stfu, stop trying to buy me off, and let me go to work

~S~

I want them to give us some more fucking money! So people don't HAVE to go to work right now and help prevent who knows how many more hundreds of thousands of deaths. You what to work and can't. Boo Hoo. People are DYING!

We don't have money. You sound like a spoiled brat child screaming at daddy "I want it" when daddy doesn't have money just magically to give you.

The government is running a huge deficit. We don't have endless money to spend on screaming people.

Get a job. Get back to work. End the lock down.

If there was no money, there would be endless amounts of it. Next, piss off. People are DYING! Over 100,000 so far in only four months.

"If there was no money.... there would be endless amounts of it."

I can't even now determine which of your statements in this thread is the dumbest. It is like you are competing against yourself to say something even dumber than what you have already spoken.

What if money was like the air. Basically, there would be endless amounts of it. Do you get it now?

That's exactly what money is, an endless amount of it. It's up to you to determine how much of it you want or need. Unlike air, it's not going to drift your way. You have to go out and get it for yourself. You have to make smart decisions from young on. You have to avoid having children you can't or can barely afford. You may take the route of an advanced education, opening up your own business, investing in stocks, real estate or the commodities market. If you are going to work for somebody else, you need to put down the pot so you can pass a drug screen for better paying jobs. But it's all up to you. The sky is the limit unless you suffer from mental or physical illnesses.

Fucking other people over, an endless amount of it. That is what capitalism is all about. Getting as much money-status for as little effort as possible. Such as the approach that Andrew Carnegie took. He considered the poor working conditions, long work hours and poor pay that he subjected his workers to as survival of the fittest. As if he was actually improving mankind. When what he was actually doing was stuffing his pockets with as much money as they could hold. The more things change, the more they stay the same. These days, we just ship our jobs to poor countries to treat their workers badly. To have them have child labor. To let them pollute as much as they can get away with.

 

[quarantine]

If I had to guess, I would say that our government will probably go for the latter. Which is also helped along by president Chump giving encouragement to the protesters why want to re-open the economy. And there are a lot of people suffering economic hardship. But seeing how there isn't likely to be a second round of stimulus checks, many have no choice but to go back to work. Even if it means risking their lives and spreading the coronavirus even more.

Over 80,000 people have died so far. What is the amount of genocide our country is willing to endure at the altar of capitalism as we know it. For those in power, more than likely any level of slaughter is acceptable to preserve capitalism as it was before the coronavirus.

Where does the money come from????

The same place it comes from now. Pretend land. Our fiat currency is probably over 20 trillion in debt. It doesn't matter if it is 40 trillion. Though before the coronavirus thing hit, the U.S. was paying around 420 billion dollars a year just on the interest of our national debt. Which is basically money flushed down the toilet. And we just burrow more money to pay that. We need to just tell whoever we owe interest to to suck it! Apart from the national debt, we also have around 61 trillion worth of unfunded obligations. And I don't want to split the hair between a debt and an obligation.

We need to just tell whoever we owe interest to to suck it!

But you want to borrow more money for handouts to you?

You're not real bright, are you?

Usury is for suckers and slaves.

Well ok....

But understand that if you eliminate Usury, then you are not going to borrow anymore.

That means if you don't have money for a car, then you simply don't get a car.

And if there isn't money for Social Security, then there is no Social Security.

If you don't have money for education, then you simply don't get education.

If there is no money for Medicare, then you simply don't get Medicare.

I'm somewhat sympathetic to the concept of banning Usury. But you need to understand what that means. No credit cards. If you want to go out to eat, because some friends came into town unexpected, and you don't have money.... you don't go out to eat.

Are you ok with this?

You don't need usury to have any of that. When inflation heats up, the fed increases interests payments. If the economy is doing poorly, the fed nearly eliminates interest payments-usury.

Without Usury, it does not matter what the Fed does.... if you don't have the money to buy something... then you are not going to be able to buy it. No matter what the Fed does.

You don't make any sense.

If you want to buy a house.... and there is no Usury... why would anyone lend you the money to buy a house? They wouldn't.

Doesn't matter what the Fed does. Why would I loan you $100,000 to buy a house, if I can't earn a profit off of loaning you the money? Without Usury, I would get back $100,000 on my $100,000 loan.

Why would I do this? I wouldn't.

If I'm a bank, I'm not going to give you a mortgage, because why would I do something that earns me nothing? Has nothing to do with the Fed. Fed has zero influence on this choice.

I'm simply not going to loan you the money. It would be better for me to invest that $100,000 in stocks. At least with stocks I'll get a return on my investment.

No Usury, means no money for you. If you don't have the cash, you don't get the stuff.

If you are ok with that, so am I. I'm all for banning Usury. But you need to understand... no house unless you have cash. No car unless you have cash. Doesn't matter what the Fed does. No one is going to loan you money, if they can't make a profit.

Face it. Capitalism is a farce. Everything should be provided by the government. Taking care of the people is their job. (At least, it should be) Not kissing hands and shaking babies. Housing, health care, education and transportation should be free. Free Free FREEEEEEEEEE!!!! Healthcare should apply equally to anybody. But as far as everything else goes, it would have to depend on your station in life. Those who are doctors or scientists for example should have better housing and transportation than a laborer. In return, people give their labor to support society.

In my town they have a plan to make the bridges toll bridges. In other words, privatize them. But those people are in it to make a profit. If you want something done as cheaply as possible, providing companies with profit isn't the way to go. No doubt one way they would do it is by paying their workers less and giving them fewer benefits than a city worker would get. Which is a race to the bottom. Screw that.

Who would work? Why work? Why invent? Why produce? Why research? Why do anything but sit around?

Your opinion of humanity is delusional. People are inventive. Producing gives them a sense of pride and worth.

Nah, give me what I want, new car, new motorhome, new home, all the money I want, free healthcare, free food, free electric, free campsites when I travel. Hell, if you can get it why not me? I’ve worked hard all my life. The government owes me tons!

What if you were given all those things. But for a price. That price being that you do whatever part you can in seeing to it that everybody else can receive those things too. (Which wouldn't mean working people to death) Would you sign on for that? Or are you so brainwashed that you think that greed and accumulating as much as you can at any negative cost to society is the best option for society.

Greed goes both ways, you want to exploit people and tell them what they can make.

No. Greed goes one way. The more you have, the more you want. Also, study's have shown that the more poor a person is, the more honest they are likely to be. Another thing is that part of the way people make money in this country is in trying to convince others that they want something that they don't really need. This too is driven by greed. It shouldn't be that way. And in at least the next 50 years, it won't be. Because most of humanity and the rest of life on this planet will be extinct due to human caused global warming. Some say it will be within the next 20 years.

No. Greed goes one way. The more you have, the more you want.

No. You are wrong. In fact, the people who earn the most, are most likely to give it away.

It's the people who are poor, that try and end up miserly and pinching every single penny.

Another thing is that part of the way people make money in this country is in trying to convince others that they want something that they don't really need. This too is driven by greed.

Funny, because I saw millions of dollars spent trying to convince everyone, that we wanted universal government run health care. I saw millions spent by Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton, and numerous others, that we wanted those idiots in office.

Must be all greedy bastards then.

This is dumb argument. That's retarded. I don't know what you did for a living, but my guess is your paycheck was tied to a marketing campaign somewhere. Every wage I earned in my life, was tied to marketing on something.

And in at least the next 50 years, it won't be.

Soviets said the same thing. So did Hugo Chavez in Venezuela. Not convincing me.

Because most of humanity and the rest of life on this planet will be extinct due to human caused global warming. Some say it will be within the next 20 years.

And there you have it. We're back to John Maynard Keynes "in the long run, we're all dead".

View attachment 341630

Look, if the world is going to end anyway, then what difference does it make if you get free education?

Dumb dumb dumb.

You must be high. If the wealthy gave their money away, they wouldn't have it to begin with. But I know what you're getting at. Who they leave their money to after they die. Well for any that might, chances are that many would do the types of things that Andrew Carnegie did. Building Carnegie Hall and other monuments to his vanity. And the reason why he could do so it because he had far more money than he needed. What I call somebody who has far more than they need is a pig.

Next, if you don't have pennys, what is there to pinch. On the other hand, I heard of a wealthy miserly woman. She had millions. But wouldn't pay for an operation that her son needed.

Next, people who didn't want universal health care spent far more. Also, some years ago there were some asshole tea party protesters across the street who were protesting against universal health care. At the end of the line where they had their cars parked, there were two people sitting in the back of their car promoting universal health care. Being so cool, I decided to go over and talk to them. I brought up to one of them how some insurance companies (though probably all) will have workers who's whole job is to dig up bullshit from the past of those they insure and use it as a reason to deny them coverage. Causing those people pain, suffering and death. As it turned out, the person I was talking to worked at an insurance company himself. And that was his job there. No doubt he was protesting for universal health care because he had a guilty conscience.

Also, I had the same sort of thing happen to me once. I got hit by a car in Florida. I was on a motorcycle stopped at a light and was hit from behind. Everybody was amazed that I survived. For the guy that hit me, his insurance dug up some bullshit from his past and denied him coverage. Leaving me fucked.

It might interest you to know that if we had universal health care, from what we would save on such pointless bureaucracy, it alone would pay for around half of what universal health care costs. And as I was saying to someone else, as a percentage of various countries GDP, the U.S. pays more and gets less than what other developed countries pay as a percentage of their GDP. I even remember hearing of some drug company here in the U.S. that made a particular drug that had been around for a long time. They raised the price of it by 100,000%! Need I go on.

If the wealthy gave their money away, they wouldn't have it to begin with.

There are many ways to give away money, that doesn't involve you becoming poor.

That's a dumb comment. Say I own a business, and my business generates $200,000 in profit for me.

I could give away $100,000 a year, every single year, and still be massively wealthy. In fact, not only could I give away $100,000 a year, but I could invest some of the remaining, and increase my net worth year over year, while still being extremely charitable.

Prove to me, you at least have some amount of intelligence at all, and stop saying ridiculously stupid comments. Think before you type, sir. Dumb statement. Very dumb.

What I call somebody who has far more than they need is a pig.

Just remember this.... to everyone in the world... you are the pig. You have far more than you need.

"more than they need" is subjective, and to 99% of this planet, you are the wealthy pig hording everything.

On the other hand, I heard of a wealthy miserly woman. She had millions. But wouldn't pay for an operation that her son needed.

Yes, and that is one example from how many millions on millions of wealthy people in this country?

We all know there are crazy people. Try not to judge everyone, based on the actions of the very few.

Next, people who didn't want universal health care spent far more.

Factually untrue. The most expensive plan at my multinational company of thousands on thousands of employees, was $350/month. That's the high end expensive family plan.

Universal health care is going to cost double our taxes. At the low end, it will cost a 12% increase in taxes, from the lowest tax bracket up.

Let's take a median income of $40,000 a year. 20% in taxes to pay for Universal Health care, would be $8,000 or $666 a month. The high end of the middle class would be around $60,000 a year, and that would cost $12,000 a year, or $1,000 a month. I don't know anyone paying that much for insurance.

I personally have never paid more than $200 a month for insurance anywhere.

Saying Universal Health care will cost less than our current system... is just factually wrong. Ridiculous honestly. Again, when you look at Europe, you don't see anyone anywhere in Europe that is paying less than we are. Not one. They all pay more... much more.

Again, marginal tax rate for someone earning $37,000 in the US is 22%. In the EU, it's 49%. More than double. And they earn less money than we do. They earn less, because of their tax and social systems. So they earn much less, and keep less of the less they earn.

And you think we'll end up better off using their system? You are crazy.

No doubt he was protesting for universal health care because he had a guilty conscience.

No. Insurance stand to make big money working with the government. The more you involve government with insurance companies, the more the insurance companies are going to make.

Free-markets make monopolies hard, because anyone can compete, and then you have to compete on services and prices. Competition makes life hard. You can't charge too much, or the customers leave. You can't save money by cutting services, or the customers leave. You have to constantly be checking to see where you are in the market, constantly checking your customer base to see if they are happy, and there is always a new competitor around the corner.

But with government, it is just like the BMV, and the Post Office, you can treat people like crap, and it doesn't affect you, because your money comes from government.

And generally you are shield by government when things go badly. Look at Franklin Raines. He was caught clearly fudging the numbers at Fannie Mae. Clear corruption, by fabricating profits, to trigger executive bonuses.

What happened to him? Nothing. We the tax payers paid for the entire failure of Fannie Mae, and Franklin Raines, didn't even go to trial for clear fraud, let alone prison.

Trust me, the biggest insurance companies are all completely in favor of Universal Health Care. They know they are going to make billions in profit, while being able to treat their customers like crap, and nothing will happen to them, because they'll have the backing of government.

This is why I've said hundreds of times, the socialists and left-wingers are the biggest pawns of big business there is. All the big companies have you people, wrapped around their figure, dancing to their tune, so they can make billions of dollars while we suffer... and you promote this to your own death.

Why don't you stop speaking crap. I said that as a percentage of various countries GDP, the ones who provide universal health care pay less. That's the end of the story. And here is something to back it up.

View attachment 342199

Nothing you said here, changes the facts I presented.

If you look at the tax rates required to pay for universal health care, you are going to pay more in taxes, than you ever did in premiums.

That's math. Your stats... don't change MATH.

Further, I agree that we do spend more... and we get better care than any of those countries. Every single time that they compare Survival rates between the US, and anywhere else, we have higher survival rates.

Why do you think every single year, Canadians come to the US for care? Because we have better care.

We have people that come here from all over the world. People from Australia, Sweden, Denmark, and Germany, come to the US for health care, because their care system sucks.

It's not because of price.

Americans will go aboard for care.... yes.... to reduce price.

But why are people from Europe routinely coming to the US for care? For price? No, because they have no price.

Why are they coming here? Why would they choose to pay for health care, that they supposedly get for free in Canada, and Europe? Why?

Because they'll die. Why will they die? Because their health care sucks.

Timely Medical | Timely Surgery at Affordable Prices

Recover quickly from surgery with Timely Medical. Enjoy discounts up to 80% and return to your routine within two weeks. Contact us for a free consult.

www.timelymedical.ca

Do you know what this company does in Canada? They charge people... to get care..... outside of Canada. Because their health care sucks.

How could a company like this exist in a country with "free" health care provided by the government?

Because government run care.... SUCKS.

Patients turning to care brokers

Canadians facing long treatment waits using companies to find U.S. care

www.theglobeandmail.com

Robot Check

This Vet in Canada, saved her own life, by doing diagnostic tests on herself, because Canadian health care sucks.

After her experience, she started comparing the difference in how dogs and pets are treated better in Canada, than human beings. Hence the name lucky dog. If she had not been a vet, and had access to medical equipment designed for animals, she likely would be dead today.

Don't sit there and tell me how much cheaper it is, because that makes you the greedy bastard you were talking about before.... trading dollars.... for lives. You don't care how many people die, so long as you save money on insurance premiums? Really?

I can recover from a hospital bill, even a large one. I know because I've done it. But I can't recover from dying to your socialized health care. Save a few bucks, and end up in a grave? Brilliant.

You are hallucinating. Some people do come here from other countries for health care. Big deal. Maybe they were going to come here for some reason anyway and decided to do the doctor thing while they were here. And there are people in Canada who won't come here unless they buy insurance for while they are here. They do so because out health care system sucks. I showed you the statistics. Americans pay a larger portion of their GDP for healthcare than the people of countries who provide free health care. Those are the facts. Like it or lump it. And after you've lumped it, lump it again.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2016-08-03/canadians-increasingly-come-to-us-for-health-care

Canadians are not coming here for vacation, and just passing by a hospital. They are coming specifically for health care. Routinely.

Americans pay a larger portion of their GDP for healthcare than

Irrelevant. You pay more for a Lexus RX than you do for a Chevrolet Sonic. Does that mean the Lexus is obviously terrible, and the Sonic is the best car ever built?

Of course not. That would be stupid. You are assuming that the quality of the care provided in Canada, and around the world, is the same as it is here.

It is not.

Countries around the world have far fewer treatments than here in the US.

Hospital waiting times at worst-ever level

Record numbers in England are on hospital waiting lists, while A&E delays highest since target introduced.

www.bbc.com

Massive wait times.

Medical Tourism

www.europeanmedicaltourist.com

Why does medical tourism within Europe even exist? They are paying half their income in taxes, and they are supposed to get 'free' health care. Why is medical tourism for Europeans, growing dramatically? Why are people willing to go to Pay-for-Service Capitalist based profit-driven hospitals in Europe, when they supposedly get free health care, from that 50% tax rate they pay?

From the OECD data:

Let’s look at interventional outcomes. According to the CDC, stroke is the cause of more than 130,000 deaths annually in the United States. However, the US has significantly lower rates of 30-day stroke-induced mortality than every other OECD country, aside from Japan and Korea. OECD data suggest that the age- and sex-adjusted mortality rates within Europe would translate to tens of thousands of additional deaths in the US.

If American Healthcare Kills, European Healthcare Kills More | Mahdi Barakat

Now flip the question: How many people die in other countries due to deficiencies in their healthcare systems? And how many people would die in the US if we had treatment outcomes similar to those in other countries?

fee.org

Death rate 'much higher' in English than US hospitals

"NHS death rate is one of worst in the West," says the Daily Mail, while The Times front page warns of "Alarm over 'high' death rate in English hospitals". This story was covered by most news outlets, including The Daily Telegraph, which ...

www.nhs.uk

This story was covered by most UK news outlets, including The Daily Telegraph, which reports that NHS patients are 45% more likely to die than patients in the US. The Telegraph says that data "over more than 10 years found NHS mortality rates were among the worst of those in seven developed countries".

But hey, at least those 45% that died, that would not have in the US... at least they didn't have an expensive medical bill.

Yes, Americans pay more for health care.

Because it's better.

If we had free healthcare, do you know what would change? NOTHING! The only thing that would change is who pays the bill. I also said that ever country with free health care goes about things a little differently. You said that in some aspects, Japan and South Korea do well. Well when we set up our universal health care system, all we have to do is what they're doing.

If we had free healthcare, my taxes would increase by nearly 20%. That will cost me more money than I have ever had to spent on health care in my entire life.

You said that in some aspects, Japan and South Korea do well. Well when we set up our universal health care system, all we have to do is what they're doing.

No I didn't say that they did well.

I said that genetically they have lower rates of cancer. Having their system here... will not reduce cancer... because having the government run a hospital, does not magically change your genetic code to reduce cancer.

What it will do, is reduce survival rates. More people will die. US survival rates right now, are higher than in Japan. If you have cancer, you are more likely to die in Japan, than in the US.

Again, the reason cancer deaths are lower in Japan, is because they are less likely to get cancer. But that isn't because the hospital magically puts out the socialist aura the keeps cancer away.
It's because they genetically are less likely to get cancer.

So having their system, which has lower survival rates, will simply result in more people dying. Not a good plan.

It depends on how it is set up. If I was running things, universal health care would cause your taxes to go down.

Of course.

It's funny because even people who are pro-government-health-care, know better than what you are saying.

Bernie said everyone would have a 6% increase in taxes across the board.

The Universal Health Care Advocacy group, said 12% across the board tax increase to pay for it.

The Senate panel on UHC, said 20% increase in taxes across the board.

And then you look at Europe, and all of them have higher than 20% increases in taxes at all income levels compared to the US, and still need more money.

If universal health care could even attempt to reduce taxes....... why is there not a single example of a country anywhere in the entire world, that was able to accomplish that?

Because they aren't being run by people with that much intelligence. People like me. What is it that a doctor for example would do with his greater earnings than what an average person makes. Own a large nice house? Have the government give him one. Who would build it you ask? Well I have heard of a saying that they have on army bases. "If it moves, salute it. If it doesn't move, paint it." So who does the painting. The same kinds of people that in society build houses. Now if doctors didn't have to spend money on the kind of house they would normally own, wouldn't that be a reason to give them less pay? And if they get paid less, people wouldn't have to spend so much on their services. Which means that governments wouldn't have to tax people so much for their services.

Then why didn't all the smart people around the world, reduce taxes on their citizens to have Universal health care? Why did France have to raise taxes so high, that people started protesting across the country?

Why has not one single "smart person" been able to do what you claim, in the last 100 years?

Again, you can keep saying "it should work", but it never has. All the smart people for the last 100+ years, have failed to achieve what you claim can be done.

And honestly, you haven't provided a single post yet, that showed you being all that smart.

I am smarter than all of them put together. That's why I could do it. Sure, they may have aspects of schooling that could have them run circles around me. Such as in mathematics. But it isn't doing them much good, is it.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Its time to get back to work. The virus is waning if we can keep it going down.
The summer heat is almost here. Lets hope the virus keeps slowing, and slowing, and slowing....
View attachment 336171

From what I have been seeing on the news, many states are reopening even though the cases of coronavirus is still increasing. Also, how many instances of coronavirus in this country did it take to get the whole ball rolling to begin with. 2 or 3?

Then why isn't the pandemic still going out of control in the NYC area?
Its going down, with 1,417,350 US cases, how can it go down with so many active cases, not just 1 or 2?

Because of quarantine. With the 2 or 3 who got the whole plague rolling here, there was no quarantine.

Yes there most certainly was a quarantine here, for travelers from China, but not from Europe?!
Quarantine? Not all of the 1.4m are quarantined, so why isn't the pandemic still going out of control in the NYC area?
You did not answer this question: What's a worse condition, 1.4m cases or a few?
We have the 1.4m now and the number of cases is going down, why? How can that be?

President Chump just didn't handle things well. And he still isn't.

Really? So what should he have done? I'll show you why he couldn't or didn't.

Well, president Chump could have started out by not calling the coronavirus a hoax at the beginning.

He didn't call it a hoax, he called what Democrats were trying to do with it another one of their hoaxes. Of course this was before we had any idea how this thing would impact us. But lets say he never made that statement. How would that have changed our current plight?

He called it a hoax. Next, it would have changed our current plight by taking it seriously from the beginning. And there would be over 30,000 fewer dead people.

President Trump is a former businessman, not a former scientist or medical expert. He took the advice from our various health agencies and his medical team to make decisions. Even in late February, Dr. Fauci made a public statement that this virus was nothing of great concern; go out and live life as you always have, and there is no need to use gloves or masks.

When the WHO made a public statement about their concern of this virus in late January, President Trump took action the next day. No, he didn't shutdown the country, but he did take a few precautionary measures, and increased those measures as new information because available, and his team and agencies were able to form a better opinion.

Today the CDC made an announcement that 35% of the Covid cases were with asymptomatic people. That means this virus likely has been with us much longer than we thought. Asymptomatic people have the virus and don't become ill because of it. However they are just as contagious as those that did get ill. That means these people were hugging their friends and family, shaking hands with strangers, drinking at bars and eating at restaurants, squeezing fruit and vegetables at their grocery store.

As for the non-asymptomatic people, the symptoms are similar to a bad cold or early flu, which a lot of people never seek medical attention for.

Therefore your theory about saving 30,000 people is your opinion, not fact.

Saving over 30,000 people with earlier action is what they said on the news last night. But admittedly, you can't always believe the news. For example, they say that Armaud Arbery was murdered. Though like it or not, president Chump started out by calling the whole thing a hoax. And it seems every step of the way, he has been dragging his feet. As for his "experts," they are on his payroll. They will basically say what they're told to say. Including the CDC. Don't believe it? Watch the documentary, "What lies upstream."

Your documentaries are not Gospel. They are trying to get you to watch their programming for profit.

Yes, if we started in September of last year, we could have saved tens of thousands of lives, but who knew what could happen back then? Trump didn't drag his feet. Our agencies are mired in red tape, and they practice these unnecessary prolonged actions that the President is not in control of.

In late February of this year, Cuomo was urging people to not worry about this silly virus. Go out, shop, dine, and carry on with your normal life. DeBlazio sent the same message to NYC residents around that same time. Piglosi was telling people to visit Chinatown. NOBODY KNEW!!!! The first two weeks of March, the House Democrats were trying to pass a bill stripping the President of his exclusive right to issue travel bans.

Bottom line is armchair quarterbacks like yourself can make any claim they desire. I always said if you want to hit todays lottery, buy tomorrows newspaper. Easier said than done.

Did you see any of those documentaries? Until you do, you can't have any kind of opinion about them. Next, nobody said anything about September. They were talking about early March.

You leftists always pull this stunt. So let me be clear up front: If I had to watch every documentary a leftists tells me to watch, watch every movie, read every book you people read, I wouldn't have time to come here and discuss politics. If you have a short article, sure, if I have time, I'll go through it. But I'm not going to spend hours and hours to reply to each and every leftist comment. You wouldn't read any book or watch any documentary I suggest either. Nobody has that kind of time.

You should listen to me. Your intellectual superior. I have no interest in steering you wrong. And you shouldn't assume I'm trying to do so. Take the documentary I mentioned called, "What lies upstream." I will tell you some of what you don't want to find out about yourself. First, companies aren't required to tell what the toxic effects of any chemical they make are. And the can lie about it! The CDC is fine with this because their leadership is appointed by the pro-business leadership of the government. Republican or democrat. Also, do you know how chemical companies get rid of their toxic waist? Basically, they flush it down the toilet! And it is perfectly legal!!! So what is the point of you having the time to say things here when all you have to speak about is shit to begin with.

Oh please, so you watch these "documentaries" and conclude they are all Gospel? WTF would make you think that? I always question what's told to me from somebody trying to make money by getting my attention, even if it's something that leans towards my political persuasion.

Facebook is loaded with conspiracy theories that after enough attention, is proven false by another entity. And as my intellectual superior, you should know by now that what you call toxic waist is spelled W-A-S-T-E, not W-A-I-S-T.

Thanks for letting me know about a typo. But as far as I can see, correcting my grammar is the best you've got. As for the conspiracy angle, they talked to the experts. People with PhD's in their particular fields. Top experts. As in there being just about no other people on the planet that may know more. You may not think so. But such people are well worth listening to.

Another documentary I mentioned to you was, "Where to invade next." Here is a piece of information from it that you can consider to be bullshit at your leisure. Apparently, Norway has the most highly educated students in the world. At the very least, they are in the top three. You might find how they accomplished this to be interesting. They eliminated homework. It seems counterintuitive. But it is a reality. In school, how much homework did you do. I didn't do any. Maybe that explains my intelligence.

Since you studied it so intensely, tell me, does Norway have anything comparable to our teachers unions? Does Norway have three months of vacation from school every year?

Somebody being an expert does not mean they are not biased. We have scientist who believe in global warming, and others who believe it's BS. We have "experts" who believe there is life on other planets, and others who do not. We have engineers who said that 911 was an inside job. Others say those people are FOS.

Being an expert doesn't mean you are always right. Speaking of which, I was never a spellcheck cop. But when somebody tires to degrade me by claiming their intellectual superioriority, the least you can do is proofread your post.

Why not watch the documentary, "Where to invade next" and find out. You would be dumbfounded, absolutely blown away by what people in European countries get that we don't. Though as Michael Moore says, things over there aren't perfect. But he's there to pick the flowers. Not the weeds. He was there to invade those countries and take back to the U.S. the spoils of his invasion. As in the good ideas. The things that have been demonstrated to work. At least over there. But maybe with out large negro and mexican population, they wouldn't work here. But it would be well worth impaling and deporting the hindrance for many other reasons. Also, I wasn't trying to degrade you. Just some of the things you talk about. Even a genius could probably be brainwashed. (But not me)

You would be dumbfounded, absolutely blown away by what people in European countries get that we don't.

A lower standard of living, smaller cars, smaller homes, a smaller economy.

They also have 8 bucks a gallon for gasoline.

But their societies weren't structures around the automobile. Unlike ours. Here, we have a lot of suburban sprawl. People live so way far out that if there was ever an EMP that killed cars, they would find it very difficult to get food.

You are putting the cart, in front of the horse.

The whole reason we have suburban sprawl.... is directly because Americans are wealthy enough to have a car, and desire to have a house farther away from the noisy crime infested inner city areas.

Yeah, their societies are less structured around automobiles....... because they couldn't afford to drive automobiles all the time.

If you take those people, and bring them to the US, where they earn more money, and pay less taxes, you what those people's from those cultures do?

They buy the biggest SUV they can, and buy a house in the suburbs.

They would do the same thing in Europe... they just can't. They can't afford it, because they are poor.

I had this couple from Laos. Escaped the communists in Laos. Talk about running through the woods, being shot at by police. Freaky stuff.

Made it to the US embassy, came to the US. Didn't know English. Had to learn English. Got training on how to do CNC work. Got jobs, making $100,000 a year. (combined).

This tiny Laos woman, bought herself, a Ford Excursion, and they bought a house in the suburbs.

I asked her if she would go back to Laos. She's wants to, because she loved the people, and the land, but if she went back, she'd be poor. The government takes all the money.

This is the reality throughout all Europe.

Why do you think the Yellow Vest protest happened? They have all that free stuff you mentioned. You know what they don't have? Money. Their poor. Because the government takes all the money. The thing that triggered the protest, was the tax hike by the government to improve social services.

They are poor. I've been there. I've seen them living in 600 sqft apartments with no air conditioning, and hanging cloths up on wires inside their 600 sqft apartment. I've seen it.

Yeah, their societies are not built around automobiles, because they can't afford automobiles. Even those that have them, can't afford to drive them.

Economically, (for instance) we ARE a third world country compared to Germany. Given their size, when it comes to the yearly value of their exports, they leave the U.S. in the dust. They have the ability to have anything they want and any size they want. But just from how their society functions, they apparently don't feel they need it.

As for the couple from Laos, who let them assholes into our country. I was watching some show one time where they were talking to people from Laos. Some of their cultural beliefs are pretty despicable compared to what White people believe. What our country should have done is leave them in the hell hole they created for themselves and train a White person to do CNC work. (Whatever that is)

Economically, (for instance) we ARE a third world country compared to Germany.

The evidence I presented, proves that your claim is false.

As for the couple from Laos, who let them assholes into our country. I was watching some show one time where they were talking to people from Laos. Some of their cultural beliefs are pretty despicable compared to what White people believe. What our country should have done is leave them in the hell hole they created for themselves and train a White person to do CNC work. (Whatever that is)

Well... we disagree on that. I'm more like Trump, in that I'm all in favor of legal immigration.

Honestly, I'm sure that white people like you describe yourself exist in society somewhere, I can't say that I've ever met any white person with the views you described.

But then again, I'm conservative, from a family of conservatives, from a church of conservatives, with conservative relatives.

In short, we're good people. I don't know people like you. So.. I would be polite, but I don't associate with people like you. I only meet people like you described yourself, on the internet. I remember some guy spouted that crap on Facebook. Don't know how he was even on my friends list, but I fixed that pretty quick.

But we're good people. We hate criminals obviously. You come here legally... only.. But if you follow our laws, I'm all for it. My last roomate was a Muslim from Bangladesh. He wanted to rent an apartment until his wife arrived. We (me and my parents together) went to his citizenship ceremony. Of course entirely legal immigration.

So no, I don't identify with people like you at all.

And I presented evidence to the contrary of yours. I told somebody around here about something I came across once. It had to do with the yearly value of the exports of the U.S. compared to Germany. Germany is a much smaller country with few natural resources. Their population is also around 81 million. The U.S. is a far larger country with a lot of arable land and many natural resources. Our population is also around 319 million people. The value of our exports for one particular year was around 1 trillion, 600 billion. For Germany it was 1 trillion, 400 million. So I am right.

You also say you support foreign scab scum. Just like president Chump. In that, you are outright evil. I have a book to suggest to you. But I doubt if you would ever read it.

We exported about $2.5 trillion last year, Germany exported $1.5 trillion.
Why does Germany suck so much?

I looked again. I found that the U.S. exported 1 trillion, 645 billion in goods. Germany exported 1 trillion, 489 billion in goods. And as I said, Germany is a far smaller country. The reason why food prices are higher in Europe is because the place doesn't have nearly as much farm land or places for cattle to graze as the U.S. Also, the total value of what Germany imports is 1 trillion, 236 billion. The total value of what the U.S. imports is 3.1 trillion. If any country sucks, it is ours.

View attachment 341999

The land being used for farming in the EU, has declined.

This is why they are importing food more and more. If I had to guess, I would wager this has to do with government interference, but that's just a guess.

Also, the total value of what Germany imports is 1 trillion, 236 billion. The total value of what the U.S. imports is 3.1 trillion. If any country sucks, it is ours.

I disagree with the way the previous conversation was going.

You and me, both own a store. I make millions. I go to your store, and I can buy everything in the store. This is because the products you sell are cheap... and I make millions.

You barely make minimum wage. When you come to my store, you can barely afford to buy one item from my store. This is because I make expensive products, and you are poor.

If we drew a line between us, and called my said Andy-Country, and your side (fittingly) Quarantine-Country.... It would look like I imported millions from you, while you imported a hundred bucks from me.

Based on what, would you claim "I suck" because I'm rich, wealthy, and can afford everything I want from others?

Imports are not a negative. In fact, they are a positive.

Rich people buy.... read Import... more from poor people, because poor people are poor, and rich people are rich.

The US buys... imports.... more from China, because the US is rich, and China is poor.

Very few wealthy countries, export more than they import, and it is usually tied to energy... natural gas, oil, and so on.

First, let's look at the UK. They have around 63 million people. If the whole country was to switch to an agrarian lifestyle, they could only raise enough food to feed about 8 million people. "Government interference" has nothing to do with it. How much land you have does. Now I will make a specist (racist) statement. Given this fact, only the lowest of lowlife traitorous scum would be letting lowlife sand negro scum emigrate to there. Or here. Or anywhere.

As for international trade, it just shouldn't be happening. Especially with the wage slave country China. As anybody can see, it is too one sided. In favor of China. If any trade isn't equal, (fair) then it is criminal. And what can somebody from China making 50 cents an hour buy from and American who makes 8 dollars an hour.

Also, there are species of ant that take other species as ant as slaves to do their work for them. They evolved to the point where the slaver ants can't even feed themselves without the slave ants feeding them. To me, it is the slaver ants who are the real slaves. Another thing is that a long time ago, Europe was hungry for Chinese porcelain and silks. This caused European countries to bleed money. And the Europeans didn't make anything that the Chinese needed. This cause European countries to export opium to China to get some money back. This led to the Opium Wars. And the Chinese didn't do so well.

First, let's look at the UK. They have around 63 million people. If the whole country was to switch to an agrarian lifestyle, they could only raise enough food to feed about 8 million people.

then you said:

As for international trade, it just shouldn't be happening.

So... in your world, 50 Million people and more, should just die.
That makes you worse than the "lowlife traitorous scum" you claim to hate.

Another thing is that a long time ago, Europe was hungry for Chinese porcelain and silks. This caused European countries to bleed money. And the Europeans didn't make anything that the Chinese needed. This cause European countries to export opium to China to get some money back. This led to the Opium Wars. And the Chinese didn't do so well.

I've read about this time period, a dozen times. That is not true.

Chinese and Europeans were trading in goods.

The cause of the Opium wars, was that China decided they didn't need to trade, and closed trade with Europe.

The result of that actions was that hundreds of businesses that were built on trade with China, were now stuck without work. Specifically I'm referring to the people who engaged in trade routes.

If you the owner of trade ships, and the biggest trade partner just closed your business.... what do you do?

Well, you can just close, and go bankrupt. Or if you can't sell things legally, perhaps you can sell stuff illegally.

The key with black market goods, is that it can't be bread. You can't sell something that doesn't bring in a huge profit, because doing smuggling is of course risky. Your ship could be caught at the port. The navy could find you. You could lose a ton of money, if the authorities find you.

So if you are going to smuggle something, it has to be something that will bring in the money. Opium was the commodity of choice, because it brought in enough money to offset the risk of smuggling.

If China had not closed trade, all of those ships and traders would not have switched to Opium, and the Opium wars would never have happened.

You have the worst history rewriting I have ever seen. Someone really screwed up your education bad.

Do you enjoy being so full of shit. The UK not being able to feed itself is a whole different topic. As for international trade, I was talking about what the U.S. imports. Unless it is something we don't have or have very much of, like neodymium, we shouldn't be importing anything. If we can't make it here, we don't need it. And there isn't anything we can't make here.

As to your crap about the opium wars, do have nothing better to do than tell lies? You don't sell opium to a country because they won't let you buy their goods. And I don't think China ever did strop exports. Because everybody likes money.

Do you enjoy being so full of shit.

No, but I enjoy talking to people who are... which is why I'm here.

The UK not being able to feed itself is a whole different topic. As for international trade, I was talking about what the U.S. imports.

You brought up the UK not being able to feed itself. You brought up that international trade should not exist.

If the UK didn't have trade, millions would die. Why you angry at me, for you falling into a trap of your own words?

Unless it is something we don't have or have very much of, like neodymium, we shouldn't be importing anything. If we can't make it here, we don't need it. And there isn't anything we can't make here.

Every single country that has engaged in that ideology has declined into poverty. Trade is inherently mutually beneficial. If it wasn't, we wouldn't engage in it.

Reducing something that is mutually beneficial, will harm us.

You do realize that the biggest legislative action in 1930, was the Smoot-Hawley Tariff that killed nearly all international trade with the US.

The results of harming trade, are universally negative.

Again, why would we put sanctions on Russia to prevent trade, if reducing trade was beneficial? Because trade is beneficial. That's why we put sanctions on countries doing something wrong.

As to your crap about the opium wars, do have nothing better to do than tell lies?

I've read about it for 10 years, from a wide variety of sources. I am confident what I said was the truth.

You don't sell opium to a country because they won't let you buy their goods.

Sure you do. In fact we have seen this repeatedly throughout the world. If you prevent legal ways of making money, the result is universally that people resort to illegal ways.

Jamaica for example. After Michael Manley engaged in socialism, and clamped down on business, the result was that people started selling illicit drugs and smuggling.

Tale of Two Islands - Econlib

Stanford University economists Peter Blair Henry and Conrad Miller recently published an interesting NBER Working Paper in which they compare economic policy and economic performance between Jamaica and Barbados. Henry and Miller point out that in Jamaica, the People’s National Party rose to...

www.econlib.org

Tale of Two Island, by Peter Blair Henry, whose father was an immigrant from Jamaica.

Another example would be Venezuela.

Drug smugglers found a backdoor to Europe — through Venezuela

With drug trafficking through Venezuela skyrocketing amid its collapse, its Caribbean islands have increasingly served as a way station for smugglers.

www.businessinsider.com

Since the socialism has destroyed legal methods of making a living in Venezuela, drug running and cartels have been moving into Venezuela at an exceptional rate.

So yes, absolutely after China cut off trade with Europe, the people in the trade business, moved from legal trade, to illegal trade.

That is exactly what happened.

Do you want to end poverty? Do away with money. That will fix the problem. Just have the government provide everything. I wonder what bullshit you will come up for with that.

Okay, if government provides everything, what's the point of going to work in the morning? What's the point in getting an advanced education? What would be the point of developing a new product or technology?

Don't be stupid and try to make what I said out to be something different. Just because the government provides everything doesn't mean you don't have to work. But for the time being, going to work can be deadly. That is the whole point of this thread. Also, remember that status thing I brought before that you didn't have anything to do with anything? People are always going to want more. As for being a doctor, there may also be some altruism to that. But otherwise, wanting a better position in life is a good reason for anybody to go to school. As for new products, a government rule would say that over time, they should be improved. As for technology, I don't think it's even possible to be a scientist without improving on that.

If you provide me absolutely everything I want... man I'm not going to work.

What are you going to do? Get a gun and force me to go to work?

If you give me free health care, free education, free food, free housing, and whatever else you dream up that should be free.....

You think I am going to work? Why would I do that?

Because if you don't work, you would go to a labor camp. Where you wouldn't have all that free stuff.

Oh, that would be so much better than a capitalist system; hauling people who broke no laws to work camps. We can't even do that now with our criminals in prison. Your suggestion here is unconstitutional. So in order to make it work, we would have to get rid of the Constitution first.

Oh the labor camp thing for the lazy could be done. And with some prisons it is being done. Though in that aspect, it shouldn't be being done. Bus as for work, I think that you can agree that compulsion for the most part is the motivation for it. But what compels people to work. In a capitalist system, not having anything if you don't work is the compulsion. In a socialist system, the government would compel you to work to get what they would provide. So there's no big difference there. You get compelled one way or another. But in a capitalist system, as I experienced personally, there may be no work. Though in a socialist system, there would be work. Well paid work. The kind of pay you would get if you belonged to a strong union. With all the benefits. As for the constitution, fuck the constitution. Any law, no matter how it is written, only means what the wealthy says it means. On top of that, we have a lot of illegal scab scum mexicans in this country that hide behind "OUR" constitution. What we need is less constitution and more pikes to impale people on.

The only prisons that have inmates working are those who pay them, and it's not mandatory--it's optional. The Constitution will be with us for the rest of our lives, so either learn to live with it or move to another country of your liking. Since we do have a Constitution, the courts ruled that forced work is slavery and inhumane treatment, and it can't be enforced.

So what happens in this Socialist society of yours when people decide they don't want to work? Does the government let them be homeless and starve? That's the kind of country you dream of?

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Just have the government provide everything

i want them to stfu, stop trying to buy me off, and let me go to work

~S~

I want them to give us some more fucking money! So people don't HAVE to go to work right now and help prevent who knows how many more hundreds of thousands of deaths. You what to work and can't. Boo Hoo. People are DYING!

We don't have money. You sound like a spoiled brat child screaming at daddy "I want it" when daddy doesn't have money just magically to give you.

The government is running a huge deficit. We don't have endless money to spend on screaming people.

Get a job. Get back to work. End the lock down.

If there was no money, there would be endless amounts of it. Next, piss off. People are DYING! Over 100,000 so far in only four months.

"If there was no money.... there would be endless amounts of it."

I can't even now determine which of your statements in this thread is the dumbest. It is like you are competing against yourself to say something even dumber than what you have already spoken.

What if money was like the air. Basically, there would be endless amounts of it. Do you get it now?

That's exactly what money is, an endless amount of it. It's up to you to determine how much of it you want or need. Unlike air, it's not going to drift your way. You have to go out and get it for yourself. You have to make smart decisions from young on. You have to avoid having children you can't or can barely afford. You may take the route of an advanced education, opening up your own business, investing in stocks, real estate or the commodities market. If you are going to work for somebody else, you need to put down the pot so you can pass a drug screen for better paying jobs. But it's all up to you. The sky is the limit unless you suffer from mental or physical illnesses.

Fucking other people over, an endless amount of it. That is what capitalism is all about. Getting as much money-status for as little effort as possible. Such as the approach that Andrew Carnegie took. He considered the poor working conditions, long work hours and poor pay that he subjected his workers to as survival of the fittest. As if he was actually improving mankind. When what he was actually doing was stuffing his pockets with as much money as they could hold. The more things change, the more they stay the same. These days, we just ship our jobs to poor countries to treat their workers badly. To have them have child labor. To let them pollute as much as they can get away with.

Correct, we do. That's what happens when you pay American blue collar labor too much. Jobs move away. How is it you people on the left always get "fucked over" by capitalism, and the rest of us participate and never get fucked over?

 

[justoffal]

If I had to guess, I would say that our government will probably go for the latter. Which is also helped along by president Chump giving encouragement to the protesters why want to re-open the economy. And there are a lot of people suffering economic hardship. But seeing how there isn't likely to be a second round of stimulus checks, many have no choice but to go back to work. Even if it means risking their lives and spreading the coronavirus even more.

Over 80,000 people have died so far. What is the amount of genocide our country is willing to endure at the altar of capitalism as we know it. For those in power, more than likely any level of slaughter is acceptable to preserve capitalism as it was before the coronavirus.

When you have capitalism, you have jobs. An economic plunge could close down a lot of business which means a lot of jobs lost if and when we are totally safe from the virus. And what happens if there is no way TO wipe out this virus.....what do we do then?

Most all people need a job to support themselves and their families. The government can't support us forever. So it's more than just saving business, saving jobs, it's also saving the country so we don't end up like Greece or Venezuela. And don't think for a minute that can't happen in our country.

Though I wish it was otherwise, what I speak of wouldn't be a forever thing. Just until the plague is crushed. Also, as I said before, bees, ants and termites have societies. And they have no need of money at all. Neither is employment an issue. Surely to some small degree we humans can do a little bit of what some basically brainless bugs can do.

They also have an average life span of just under three weeks.

Jo

 

[Andylusion]

Its time to get back to work. The virus is waning if we can keep it going down.
The summer heat is almost here. Lets hope the virus keeps slowing, and slowing, and slowing....
View attachment 336171

From what I have been seeing on the news, many states are reopening even though the cases of coronavirus is still increasing. Also, how many instances of coronavirus in this country did it take to get the whole ball rolling to begin with. 2 or 3?

Then why isn't the pandemic still going out of control in the NYC area?
Its going down, with 1,417,350 US cases, how can it go down with so many active cases, not just 1 or 2?

Because of quarantine. With the 2 or 3 who got the whole plague rolling here, there was no quarantine.

Yes there most certainly was a quarantine here, for travelers from China, but not from Europe?!
Quarantine? Not all of the 1.4m are quarantined, so why isn't the pandemic still going out of control in the NYC area?
You did not answer this question: What's a worse condition, 1.4m cases or a few?
We have the 1.4m now and the number of cases is going down, why? How can that be?

President Chump just didn't handle things well. And he still isn't.

Really? So what should he have done? I'll show you why he couldn't or didn't.

Well, president Chump could have started out by not calling the coronavirus a hoax at the beginning.

He didn't call it a hoax, he called what Democrats were trying to do with it another one of their hoaxes. Of course this was before we had any idea how this thing would impact us. But lets say he never made that statement. How would that have changed our current plight?

He called it a hoax. Next, it would have changed our current plight by taking it seriously from the beginning. And there would be over 30,000 fewer dead people.

President Trump is a former businessman, not a former scientist or medical expert. He took the advice from our various health agencies and his medical team to make decisions. Even in late February, Dr. Fauci made a public statement that this virus was nothing of great concern; go out and live life as you always have, and there is no need to use gloves or masks.

When the WHO made a public statement about their concern of this virus in late January, President Trump took action the next day. No, he didn't shutdown the country, but he did take a few precautionary measures, and increased those measures as new information because available, and his team and agencies were able to form a better opinion.

Today the CDC made an announcement that 35% of the Covid cases were with asymptomatic people. That means this virus likely has been with us much longer than we thought. Asymptomatic people have the virus and don't become ill because of it. However they are just as contagious as those that did get ill. That means these people were hugging their friends and family, shaking hands with strangers, drinking at bars and eating at restaurants, squeezing fruit and vegetables at their grocery store.

As for the non-asymptomatic people, the symptoms are similar to a bad cold or early flu, which a lot of people never seek medical attention for.

Therefore your theory about saving 30,000 people is your opinion, not fact.

Saving over 30,000 people with earlier action is what they said on the news last night. But admittedly, you can't always believe the news. For example, they say that Armaud Arbery was murdered. Though like it or not, president Chump started out by calling the whole thing a hoax. And it seems every step of the way, he has been dragging his feet. As for his "experts," they are on his payroll. They will basically say what they're told to say. Including the CDC. Don't believe it? Watch the documentary, "What lies upstream."

Your documentaries are not Gospel. They are trying to get you to watch their programming for profit.

Yes, if we started in September of last year, we could have saved tens of thousands of lives, but who knew what could happen back then? Trump didn't drag his feet. Our agencies are mired in red tape, and they practice these unnecessary prolonged actions that the President is not in control of.

In late February of this year, Cuomo was urging people to not worry about this silly virus. Go out, shop, dine, and carry on with your normal life. DeBlazio sent the same message to NYC residents around that same time. Piglosi was telling people to visit Chinatown. NOBODY KNEW!!!! The first two weeks of March, the House Democrats were trying to pass a bill stripping the President of his exclusive right to issue travel bans.

Bottom line is armchair quarterbacks like yourself can make any claim they desire. I always said if you want to hit todays lottery, buy tomorrows newspaper. Easier said than done.

Did you see any of those documentaries? Until you do, you can't have any kind of opinion about them. Next, nobody said anything about September. They were talking about early March.

You leftists always pull this stunt. So let me be clear up front: If I had to watch every documentary a leftists tells me to watch, watch every movie, read every book you people read, I wouldn't have time to come here and discuss politics. If you have a short article, sure, if I have time, I'll go through it. But I'm not going to spend hours and hours to reply to each and every leftist comment. You wouldn't read any book or watch any documentary I suggest either. Nobody has that kind of time.

You should listen to me. Your intellectual superior. I have no interest in steering you wrong. And you shouldn't assume I'm trying to do so. Take the documentary I mentioned called, "What lies upstream." I will tell you some of what you don't want to find out about yourself. First, companies aren't required to tell what the toxic effects of any chemical they make are. And the can lie about it! The CDC is fine with this because their leadership is appointed by the pro-business leadership of the government. Republican or democrat. Also, do you know how chemical companies get rid of their toxic waist? Basically, they flush it down the toilet! And it is perfectly legal!!! So what is the point of you having the time to say things here when all you have to speak about is shit to begin with.

Oh please, so you watch these "documentaries" and conclude they are all Gospel? WTF would make you think that? I always question what's told to me from somebody trying to make money by getting my attention, even if it's something that leans towards my political persuasion.

Facebook is loaded with conspiracy theories that after enough attention, is proven false by another entity. And as my intellectual superior, you should know by now that what you call toxic waist is spelled W-A-S-T-E, not W-A-I-S-T.

Thanks for letting me know about a typo. But as far as I can see, correcting my grammar is the best you've got. As for the conspiracy angle, they talked to the experts. People with PhD's in their particular fields. Top experts. As in there being just about no other people on the planet that may know more. You may not think so. But such people are well worth listening to.

Another documentary I mentioned to you was, "Where to invade next." Here is a piece of information from it that you can consider to be bullshit at your leisure. Apparently, Norway has the most highly educated students in the world. At the very least, they are in the top three. You might find how they accomplished this to be interesting. They eliminated homework. It seems counterintuitive. But it is a reality. In school, how much homework did you do. I didn't do any. Maybe that explains my intelligence.

Since you studied it so intensely, tell me, does Norway have anything comparable to our teachers unions? Does Norway have three months of vacation from school every year?

Somebody being an expert does not mean they are not biased. We have scientist who believe in global warming, and others who believe it's BS. We have "experts" who believe there is life on other planets, and others who do not. We have engineers who said that 911 was an inside job. Others say those people are FOS.

Being an expert doesn't mean you are always right. Speaking of which, I was never a spellcheck cop. But when somebody tires to degrade me by claiming their intellectual superioriority, the least you can do is proofread your post.

Why not watch the documentary, "Where to invade next" and find out. You would be dumbfounded, absolutely blown away by what people in European countries get that we don't. Though as Michael Moore says, things over there aren't perfect. But he's there to pick the flowers. Not the weeds. He was there to invade those countries and take back to the U.S. the spoils of his invasion. As in the good ideas. The things that have been demonstrated to work. At least over there. But maybe with out large negro and mexican population, they wouldn't work here. But it would be well worth impaling and deporting the hindrance for many other reasons. Also, I wasn't trying to degrade you. Just some of the things you talk about. Even a genius could probably be brainwashed. (But not me)

You would be dumbfounded, absolutely blown away by what people in European countries get that we don't.

A lower standard of living, smaller cars, smaller homes, a smaller economy.

They also have 8 bucks a gallon for gasoline.

But their societies weren't structures around the automobile. Unlike ours. Here, we have a lot of suburban sprawl. People live so way far out that if there was ever an EMP that killed cars, they would find it very difficult to get food.

You are putting the cart, in front of the horse.

The whole reason we have suburban sprawl.... is directly because Americans are wealthy enough to have a car, and desire to have a house farther away from the noisy crime infested inner city areas.

Yeah, their societies are less structured around automobiles....... because they couldn't afford to drive automobiles all the time.

If you take those people, and bring them to the US, where they earn more money, and pay less taxes, you what those people's from those cultures do?

They buy the biggest SUV they can, and buy a house in the suburbs.

They would do the same thing in Europe... they just can't. They can't afford it, because they are poor.

I had this couple from Laos. Escaped the communists in Laos. Talk about running through the woods, being shot at by police. Freaky stuff.

Made it to the US embassy, came to the US. Didn't know English. Had to learn English. Got training on how to do CNC work. Got jobs, making $100,000 a year. (combined).

This tiny Laos woman, bought herself, a Ford Excursion, and they bought a house in the suburbs.

I asked her if she would go back to Laos. She's wants to, because she loved the people, and the land, but if she went back, she'd be poor. The government takes all the money.

This is the reality throughout all Europe.

Why do you think the Yellow Vest protest happened? They have all that free stuff you mentioned. You know what they don't have? Money. Their poor. Because the government takes all the money. The thing that triggered the protest, was the tax hike by the government to improve social services.

They are poor. I've been there. I've seen them living in 600 sqft apartments with no air conditioning, and hanging cloths up on wires inside their 600 sqft apartment. I've seen it.

Yeah, their societies are not built around automobiles, because they can't afford automobiles. Even those that have them, can't afford to drive them.

Economically, (for instance) we ARE a third world country compared to Germany. Given their size, when it comes to the yearly value of their exports, they leave the U.S. in the dust. They have the ability to have anything they want and any size they want. But just from how their society functions, they apparently don't feel they need it.

As for the couple from Laos, who let them assholes into our country. I was watching some show one time where they were talking to people from Laos. Some of their cultural beliefs are pretty despicable compared to what White people believe. What our country should have done is leave them in the hell hole they created for themselves and train a White person to do CNC work. (Whatever that is)

Economically, (for instance) we ARE a third world country compared to Germany.

The evidence I presented, proves that your claim is false.

As for the couple from Laos, who let them assholes into our country. I was watching some show one time where they were talking to people from Laos. Some of their cultural beliefs are pretty despicable compared to what White people believe. What our country should have done is leave them in the hell hole they created for themselves and train a White person to do CNC work. (Whatever that is)

Well... we disagree on that. I'm more like Trump, in that I'm all in favor of legal immigration.

Honestly, I'm sure that white people like you describe yourself exist in society somewhere, I can't say that I've ever met any white person with the views you described.

But then again, I'm conservative, from a family of conservatives, from a church of conservatives, with conservative relatives.

In short, we're good people. I don't know people like you. So.. I would be polite, but I don't associate with people like you. I only meet people like you described yourself, on the internet. I remember some guy spouted that crap on Facebook. Don't know how he was even on my friends list, but I fixed that pretty quick.

But we're good people. We hate criminals obviously. You come here legally... only.. But if you follow our laws, I'm all for it. My last roomate was a Muslim from Bangladesh. He wanted to rent an apartment until his wife arrived. We (me and my parents together) went to his citizenship ceremony. Of course entirely legal immigration.

So no, I don't identify with people like you at all.

And I presented evidence to the contrary of yours. I told somebody around here about something I came across once. It had to do with the yearly value of the exports of the U.S. compared to Germany. Germany is a much smaller country with few natural resources. Their population is also around 81 million. The U.S. is a far larger country with a lot of arable land and many natural resources. Our population is also around 319 million people. The value of our exports for one particular year was around 1 trillion, 600 billion. For Germany it was 1 trillion, 400 million. So I am right.

You also say you support foreign scab scum. Just like president Chump. In that, you are outright evil. I have a book to suggest to you. But I doubt if you would ever read it.

We exported about $2.5 trillion last year, Germany exported $1.5 trillion.
Why does Germany suck so much?

I looked again. I found that the U.S. exported 1 trillion, 645 billion in goods. Germany exported 1 trillion, 489 billion in goods. And as I said, Germany is a far smaller country. The reason why food prices are higher in Europe is because the place doesn't have nearly as much farm land or places for cattle to graze as the U.S. Also, the total value of what Germany imports is 1 trillion, 236 billion. The total value of what the U.S. imports is 3.1 trillion. If any country sucks, it is ours.

View attachment 341999

The land being used for farming in the EU, has declined.

This is why they are importing food more and more. If I had to guess, I would wager this has to do with government interference, but that's just a guess.

Also, the total value of what Germany imports is 1 trillion, 236 billion. The total value of what the U.S. imports is 3.1 trillion. If any country sucks, it is ours.

I disagree with the way the previous conversation was going.

You and me, both own a store. I make millions. I go to your store, and I can buy everything in the store. This is because the products you sell are cheap... and I make millions.

You barely make minimum wage. When you come to my store, you can barely afford to buy one item from my store. This is because I make expensive products, and you are poor.

If we drew a line between us, and called my said Andy-Country, and your side (fittingly) Quarantine-Country.... It would look like I imported millions from you, while you imported a hundred bucks from me.

Based on what, would you claim "I suck" because I'm rich, wealthy, and can afford everything I want from others?

Imports are not a negative. In fact, they are a positive.

Rich people buy.... read Import... more from poor people, because poor people are poor, and rich people are rich.

The US buys... imports.... more from China, because the US is rich, and China is poor.

Very few wealthy countries, export more than they import, and it is usually tied to energy... natural gas, oil, and so on.

First, let's look at the UK. They have around 63 million people. If the whole country was to switch to an agrarian lifestyle, they could only raise enough food to feed about 8 million people. "Government interference" has nothing to do with it. How much land you have does. Now I will make a specist (racist) statement. Given this fact, only the lowest of lowlife traitorous scum would be letting lowlife sand negro scum emigrate to there. Or here. Or anywhere.

As for international trade, it just shouldn't be happening. Especially with the wage slave country China. As anybody can see, it is too one sided. In favor of China. If any trade isn't equal, (fair) then it is criminal. And what can somebody from China making 50 cents an hour buy from and American who makes 8 dollars an hour.

Also, there are species of ant that take other species as ant as slaves to do their work for them. They evolved to the point where the slaver ants can't even feed themselves without the slave ants feeding them. To me, it is the slaver ants who are the real slaves. Another thing is that a long time ago, Europe was hungry for Chinese porcelain and silks. This caused European countries to bleed money. And the Europeans didn't make anything that the Chinese needed. This cause European countries to export opium to China to get some money back. This led to the Opium Wars. And the Chinese didn't do so well.

First, let's look at the UK. They have around 63 million people. If the whole country was to switch to an agrarian lifestyle, they could only raise enough food to feed about 8 million people.

then you said:

As for international trade, it just shouldn't be happening.

So... in your world, 50 Million people and more, should just die.
That makes you worse than the "lowlife traitorous scum" you claim to hate.

Another thing is that a long time ago, Europe was hungry for Chinese porcelain and silks. This caused European countries to bleed money. And the Europeans didn't make anything that the Chinese needed. This cause European countries to export opium to China to get some money back. This led to the Opium Wars. And the Chinese didn't do so well.

I've read about this time period, a dozen times. That is not true.

Chinese and Europeans were trading in goods.

The cause of the Opium wars, was that China decided they didn't need to trade, and closed trade with Europe.

The result of that actions was that hundreds of businesses that were built on trade with China, were now stuck without work. Specifically I'm referring to the people who engaged in trade routes.

If you the owner of trade ships, and the biggest trade partner just closed your business.... what do you do?

Well, you can just close, and go bankrupt. Or if you can't sell things legally, perhaps you can sell stuff illegally.

The key with black market goods, is that it can't be bread. You can't sell something that doesn't bring in a huge profit, because doing smuggling is of course risky. Your ship could be caught at the port. The navy could find you. You could lose a ton of money, if the authorities find you.

So if you are going to smuggle something, it has to be something that will bring in the money. Opium was the commodity of choice, because it brought in enough money to offset the risk of smuggling.

If China had not closed trade, all of those ships and traders would not have switched to Opium, and the Opium wars would never have happened.

You have the worst history rewriting I have ever seen. Someone really screwed up your education bad.

Do you enjoy being so full of shit. The UK not being able to feed itself is a whole different topic. As for international trade, I was talking about what the U.S. imports. Unless it is something we don't have or have very much of, like neodymium, we shouldn't be importing anything. If we can't make it here, we don't need it. And there isn't anything we can't make here.

As to your crap about the opium wars, do have nothing better to do than tell lies? You don't sell opium to a country because they won't let you buy their goods. And I don't think China ever did strop exports. Because everybody likes money.

Do you enjoy being so full of shit.

No, but I enjoy talking to people who are... which is why I'm here.

The UK not being able to feed itself is a whole different topic. As for international trade, I was talking about what the U.S. imports.

You brought up the UK not being able to feed itself. You brought up that international trade should not exist.

If the UK didn't have trade, millions would die. Why you angry at me, for you falling into a trap of your own words?

Unless it is something we don't have or have very much of, like neodymium, we shouldn't be importing anything. If we can't make it here, we don't need it. And there isn't anything we can't make here.

Every single country that has engaged in that ideology has declined into poverty. Trade is inherently mutually beneficial. If it wasn't, we wouldn't engage in it.

Reducing something that is mutually beneficial, will harm us.

You do realize that the biggest legislative action in 1930, was the Smoot-Hawley Tariff that killed nearly all international trade with the US.

The results of harming trade, are universally negative.

Again, why would we put sanctions on Russia to prevent trade, if reducing trade was beneficial? Because trade is beneficial. That's why we put sanctions on countries doing something wrong.

As to your crap about the opium wars, do have nothing better to do than tell lies?

I've read about it for 10 years, from a wide variety of sources. I am confident what I said was the truth.

You don't sell opium to a country because they won't let you buy their goods.

Sure you do. In fact we have seen this repeatedly throughout the world. If you prevent legal ways of making money, the result is universally that people resort to illegal ways.

Jamaica for example. After Michael Manley engaged in socialism, and clamped down on business, the result was that people started selling illicit drugs and smuggling.

Tale of Two Islands - Econlib

Stanford University economists Peter Blair Henry and Conrad Miller recently published an interesting NBER Working Paper in which they compare economic policy and economic performance between Jamaica and Barbados. Henry and Miller point out that in Jamaica, the People’s National Party rose to...

www.econlib.org

Tale of Two Island, by Peter Blair Henry, whose father was an immigrant from Jamaica.

Another example would be Venezuela.

Drug smugglers found a backdoor to Europe — through Venezuela

With drug trafficking through Venezuela skyrocketing amid its collapse, its Caribbean islands have increasingly served as a way station for smugglers.

www.businessinsider.com

Since the socialism has destroyed legal methods of making a living in Venezuela, drug running and cartels have been moving into Venezuela at an exceptional rate.

So yes, absolutely after China cut off trade with Europe, the people in the trade business, moved from legal trade, to illegal trade.

That is exactly what happened.

Do you want to end poverty? Do away with money. That will fix the problem. Just have the government provide everything. I wonder what bullshit you will come up for with that.

Okay, if government provides everything, what's the point of going to work in the morning? What's the point in getting an advanced education? What would be the point of developing a new product or technology?

Don't be stupid and try to make what I said out to be something different. Just because the government provides everything doesn't mean you don't have to work. But for the time being, going to work can be deadly. That is the whole point of this thread. Also, remember that status thing I brought before that you didn't have anything to do with anything? People are always going to want more. As for being a doctor, there may also be some altruism to that. But otherwise, wanting a better position in life is a good reason for anybody to go to school. As for new products, a government rule would say that over time, they should be improved. As for technology, I don't think it's even possible to be a scientist without improving on that.

All I did was ask a simple question: If government provided everything, what is the point of working? Since your idea is no monetary exchange, and everything simply provided, why work to create money you can't use? After all, your idea is that government will provide at no cost to you whether you work or not.

People don't spend all that time in education because they need a higher status. Money is the motivator. Sure, you have to have a lot of intelligence and a passion for that kind of work, but money certainly makes that decision for you when deciding on what to take up in college.

Let's say I had the ability to create a wonderful new product. This product would change the lives of most people, like a cell phone, or cable television, or big screens. Now, my invention would take a lot of time, I'd have to borrow a lot of money, I would have to take some risks, but if all works out, I'd end up filthy rich. Why would I do that if government would take my invention and just provide it to people? There would be no market to drive up the price; no supply and demand. Government would say we are taking over your idea, producing it ourselves, and you still get your usual monthly stipend.

Time is getting short today. So I'll make this brief. If you get free stuff, somebody has to make it. Somebody else would also receive for free what you make. And so on and so on. Next, MONEY = STATUS.

Yes, money does equal status, and that's why people work, invest, and open up businesses. But nobody goes to college for many years just to be called Doctor, especially if you only make as much as a UAW worker on an assembly line.

A doctor would make a little more than what a UAW worker used to. These days, the power of unions is pretty much gone. Because if any workers put up any fuss, they just ship their jobs to China.

If a doctor didn't make "a little more than what an UAW worker used to"... then they wouldn't be doctors. Why do something so hard, and risky, without getting well paid?

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Do you enjoy being so full of shit. The UK not being able to feed itself is a whole different topic. As for international trade, I was talking about what the U.S. imports. Unless it is something we don't have or have very much of, like neodymium, we shouldn't be importing anything. If we can't make it here, we don't need it. And there isn't anything we can't make here.

Instead of thinking you have all the great ideas, here is a short and sweet column written by Dr. Walter E Williams, an economics professor. It is dated--back to when Obama became President, but his facts and figures are relatively the same today.

Foreign Trade Angst

Presidential candidates Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama, pandering to anti-trade activists, suggest that should they become president, they will restrict trade agreements.

townhall.com

Just being a doctor doesn't make him right. The proof of that is in the trade deficit. Do you know what that means? Money out of our pockets. And anything Hillary or Obama may have said is just talk. Nothing those fools really wanted change. Or it would have happened. And Hillary's husband Bill was the one who actually signed NAFTA and GATT into law!

So you didn't even bother to read the article or focus on the message? That's what it seems like. What he pointed out (since you didn't read it) is that we do benefit greatly by insourcing. But you can't have insourcing without outsourcing. Nobody would deal with a country in virtual isolation. All those jobs provided by companies from other countries would no longer be with us today.

No. I didn't read it because I don't care to read what idiots have to say. Do bee, ant or termite societies need imports from other bee ant or termite societies? No! If there is anything that American's can't make, we don't need it. And there isn't anything we can't make. And American's need the jobs!

That was the point behind Dr. William's column. Those other countries give us those jobs.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

If I had to guess, I would say that our government will probably go for the latter. Which is also helped along by president Chump giving encouragement to the protesters why want to re-open the economy. And there are a lot of people suffering economic hardship. But seeing how there isn't likely to be a second round of stimulus checks, many have no choice but to go back to work. Even if it means risking their lives and spreading the coronavirus even more.

Over 80,000 people have died so far. What is the amount of genocide our country is willing to endure at the altar of capitalism as we know it. For those in power, more than likely any level of slaughter is acceptable to preserve capitalism as it was before the coronavirus.

Where does the money come from????

The same place it comes from now. Pretend land. Our fiat currency is probably over 20 trillion in debt. It doesn't matter if it is 40 trillion. Though before the coronavirus thing hit, the U.S. was paying around 420 billion dollars a year just on the interest of our national debt. Which is basically money flushed down the toilet. And we just burrow more money to pay that. We need to just tell whoever we owe interest to to suck it! Apart from the national debt, we also have around 61 trillion worth of unfunded obligations. And I don't want to split the hair between a debt and an obligation.

We need to just tell whoever we owe interest to to suck it!

But you want to borrow more money for handouts to you?

You're not real bright, are you?

Usury is for suckers and slaves.

Well ok....

But understand that if you eliminate Usury, then you are not going to borrow anymore.

That means if you don't have money for a car, then you simply don't get a car.

And if there isn't money for Social Security, then there is no Social Security.

If you don't have money for education, then you simply don't get education.

If there is no money for Medicare, then you simply don't get Medicare.

I'm somewhat sympathetic to the concept of banning Usury. But you need to understand what that means. No credit cards. If you want to go out to eat, because some friends came into town unexpected, and you don't have money.... you don't go out to eat.

Are you ok with this?

You don't need usury to have any of that. When inflation heats up, the fed increases interests payments. If the economy is doing poorly, the fed nearly eliminates interest payments-usury.

Without Usury, it does not matter what the Fed does.... if you don't have the money to buy something... then you are not going to be able to buy it. No matter what the Fed does.

You don't make any sense.

If you want to buy a house.... and there is no Usury... why would anyone lend you the money to buy a house? They wouldn't.

Doesn't matter what the Fed does. Why would I loan you $100,000 to buy a house, if I can't earn a profit off of loaning you the money? Without Usury, I would get back $100,000 on my $100,000 loan.

Why would I do this? I wouldn't.

If I'm a bank, I'm not going to give you a mortgage, because why would I do something that earns me nothing? Has nothing to do with the Fed. Fed has zero influence on this choice.

I'm simply not going to loan you the money. It would be better for me to invest that $100,000 in stocks. At least with stocks I'll get a return on my investment.

No Usury, means no money for you. If you don't have the cash, you don't get the stuff.

If you are ok with that, so am I. I'm all for banning Usury. But you need to understand... no house unless you have cash. No car unless you have cash. Doesn't matter what the Fed does. No one is going to loan you money, if they can't make a profit.

Face it. Capitalism is a farce. Everything should be provided by the government. Taking care of the people is their job. (At least, it should be) Not kissing hands and shaking babies. Housing, health care, education and transportation should be free. Free Free FREEEEEEEEEE!!!! Healthcare should apply equally to anybody. But as far as everything else goes, it would have to depend on your station in life. Those who are doctors or scientists for example should have better housing and transportation than a laborer. In return, people give their labor to support society.

In my town they have a plan to make the bridges toll bridges. In other words, privatize them. But those people are in it to make a profit. If you want something done as cheaply as possible, providing companies with profit isn't the way to go. No doubt one way they would do it is by paying their workers less and giving them fewer benefits than a city worker would get. Which is a race to the bottom. Screw that.

Who would work? Why work? Why invent? Why produce? Why research? Why do anything but sit around?

Your opinion of humanity is delusional. People are inventive. Producing gives them a sense of pride and worth.

Nah, give me what I want, new car, new motorhome, new home, all the money I want, free healthcare, free food, free electric, free campsites when I travel. Hell, if you can get it why not me? I’ve worked hard all my life. The government owes me tons!

What if you were given all those things. But for a price. That price being that you do whatever part you can in seeing to it that everybody else can receive those things too. (Which wouldn't mean working people to death) Would you sign on for that? Or are you so brainwashed that you think that greed and accumulating as much as you can at any negative cost to society is the best option for society.

Greed goes both ways, you want to exploit people and tell them what they can make.

No. Greed goes one way. The more you have, the more you want. Also, study's have shown that the more poor a person is, the more honest they are likely to be. Another thing is that part of the way people make money in this country is in trying to convince others that they want something that they don't really need. This too is driven by greed. It shouldn't be that way. And in at least the next 50 years, it won't be. Because most of humanity and the rest of life on this planet will be extinct due to human caused global warming. Some say it will be within the next 20 years.

No. Greed goes one way. The more you have, the more you want.

No. You are wrong. In fact, the people who earn the most, are most likely to give it away.

It's the people who are poor, that try and end up miserly and pinching every single penny.

Another thing is that part of the way people make money in this country is in trying to convince others that they want something that they don't really need. This too is driven by greed.

Funny, because I saw millions of dollars spent trying to convince everyone, that we wanted universal government run health care. I saw millions spent by Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton, and numerous others, that we wanted those idiots in office.

Must be all greedy bastards then.

This is dumb argument. That's retarded. I don't know what you did for a living, but my guess is your paycheck was tied to a marketing campaign somewhere. Every wage I earned in my life, was tied to marketing on something.

And in at least the next 50 years, it won't be.

Soviets said the same thing. So did Hugo Chavez in Venezuela. Not convincing me.

Because most of humanity and the rest of life on this planet will be extinct due to human caused global warming. Some say it will be within the next 20 years.

And there you have it. We're back to John Maynard Keynes "in the long run, we're all dead".

View attachment 341630

Look, if the world is going to end anyway, then what difference does it make if you get free education?

Dumb dumb dumb.

You must be high. If the wealthy gave their money away, they wouldn't have it to begin with. But I know what you're getting at. Who they leave their money to after they die. Well for any that might, chances are that many would do the types of things that Andrew Carnegie did. Building Carnegie Hall and other monuments to his vanity. And the reason why he could do so it because he had far more money than he needed. What I call somebody who has far more than they need is a pig.

Next, if you don't have pennys, what is there to pinch. On the other hand, I heard of a wealthy miserly woman. She had millions. But wouldn't pay for an operation that her son needed.

Next, people who didn't want universal health care spent far more. Also, some years ago there were some asshole tea party protesters across the street who were protesting against universal health care. At the end of the line where they had their cars parked, there were two people sitting in the back of their car promoting universal health care. Being so cool, I decided to go over and talk to them. I brought up to one of them how some insurance companies (though probably all) will have workers who's whole job is to dig up bullshit from the past of those they insure and use it as a reason to deny them coverage. Causing those people pain, suffering and death. As it turned out, the person I was talking to worked at an insurance company himself. And that was his job there. No doubt he was protesting for universal health care because he had a guilty conscience.

Also, I had the same sort of thing happen to me once. I got hit by a car in Florida. I was on a motorcycle stopped at a light and was hit from behind. Everybody was amazed that I survived. For the guy that hit me, his insurance dug up some bullshit from his past and denied him coverage. Leaving me fucked.

It might interest you to know that if we had universal health care, from what we would save on such pointless bureaucracy, it alone would pay for around half of what universal health care costs. And as I was saying to someone else, as a percentage of various countries GDP, the U.S. pays more and gets less than what other developed countries pay as a percentage of their GDP. I even remember hearing of some drug company here in the U.S. that made a particular drug that had been around for a long time. They raised the price of it by 100,000%! Need I go on.

If the wealthy gave their money away, they wouldn't have it to begin with.

There are many ways to give away money, that doesn't involve you becoming poor.

That's a dumb comment. Say I own a business, and my business generates $200,000 in profit for me.

I could give away $100,000 a year, every single year, and still be massively wealthy. In fact, not only could I give away $100,000 a year, but I could invest some of the remaining, and increase my net worth year over year, while still being extremely charitable.

Prove to me, you at least have some amount of intelligence at all, and stop saying ridiculously stupid comments. Think before you type, sir. Dumb statement. Very dumb.

What I call somebody who has far more than they need is a pig.

Just remember this.... to everyone in the world... you are the pig. You have far more than you need.

"more than they need" is subjective, and to 99% of this planet, you are the wealthy pig hording everything.

On the other hand, I heard of a wealthy miserly woman. She had millions. But wouldn't pay for an operation that her son needed.

Yes, and that is one example from how many millions on millions of wealthy people in this country?

We all know there are crazy people. Try not to judge everyone, based on the actions of the very few.

Next, people who didn't want universal health care spent far more.

Factually untrue. The most expensive plan at my multinational company of thousands on thousands of employees, was $350/month. That's the high end expensive family plan.

Universal health care is going to cost double our taxes. At the low end, it will cost a 12% increase in taxes, from the lowest tax bracket up.

Let's take a median income of $40,000 a year. 20% in taxes to pay for Universal Health care, would be $8,000 or $666 a month. The high end of the middle class would be around $60,000 a year, and that would cost $12,000 a year, or $1,000 a month. I don't know anyone paying that much for insurance.

I personally have never paid more than $200 a month for insurance anywhere.

Saying Universal Health care will cost less than our current system... is just factually wrong. Ridiculous honestly. Again, when you look at Europe, you don't see anyone anywhere in Europe that is paying less than we are. Not one. They all pay more... much more.

Again, marginal tax rate for someone earning $37,000 in the US is 22%. In the EU, it's 49%. More than double. And they earn less money than we do. They earn less, because of their tax and social systems. So they earn much less, and keep less of the less they earn.

And you think we'll end up better off using their system? You are crazy.

No doubt he was protesting for universal health care because he had a guilty conscience.

No. Insurance stand to make big money working with the government. The more you involve government with insurance companies, the more the insurance companies are going to make.

Free-markets make monopolies hard, because anyone can compete, and then you have to compete on services and prices. Competition makes life hard. You can't charge too much, or the customers leave. You can't save money by cutting services, or the customers leave. You have to constantly be checking to see where you are in the market, constantly checking your customer base to see if they are happy, and there is always a new competitor around the corner.

But with government, it is just like the BMV, and the Post Office, you can treat people like crap, and it doesn't affect you, because your money comes from government.

And generally you are shield by government when things go badly. Look at Franklin Raines. He was caught clearly fudging the numbers at Fannie Mae. Clear corruption, by fabricating profits, to trigger executive bonuses.

What happened to him? Nothing. We the tax payers paid for the entire failure of Fannie Mae, and Franklin Raines, didn't even go to trial for clear fraud, let alone prison.

Trust me, the biggest insurance companies are all completely in favor of Universal Health Care. They know they are going to make billions in profit, while being able to treat their customers like crap, and nothing will happen to them, because they'll have the backing of government.

This is why I've said hundreds of times, the socialists and left-wingers are the biggest pawns of big business there is. All the big companies have you people, wrapped around their figure, dancing to their tune, so they can make billions of dollars while we suffer... and you promote this to your own death.

Why don't you stop speaking crap. I said that as a percentage of various countries GDP, the ones who provide universal health care pay less. That's the end of the story. And here is something to back it up.

View attachment 342199

Nothing you said here, changes the facts I presented.

If you look at the tax rates required to pay for universal health care, you are going to pay more in taxes, than you ever did in premiums.

That's math. Your stats... don't change MATH.

Further, I agree that we do spend more... and we get better care than any of those countries. Every single time that they compare Survival rates between the US, and anywhere else, we have higher survival rates.

Why do you think every single year, Canadians come to the US for care? Because we have better care.

We have people that come here from all over the world. People from Australia, Sweden, Denmark, and Germany, come to the US for health care, because their care system sucks.

It's not because of price.

Americans will go aboard for care.... yes.... to reduce price.

But why are people from Europe routinely coming to the US for care? For price? No, because they have no price.

Why are they coming here? Why would they choose to pay for health care, that they supposedly get for free in Canada, and Europe? Why?

Because they'll die. Why will they die? Because their health care sucks.

Timely Medical | Timely Surgery at Affordable Prices

Recover quickly from surgery with Timely Medical. Enjoy discounts up to 80% and return to your routine within two weeks. Contact us for a free consult.

www.timelymedical.ca

Do you know what this company does in Canada? They charge people... to get care..... outside of Canada. Because their health care sucks.

How could a company like this exist in a country with "free" health care provided by the government?

Because government run care.... SUCKS.

Patients turning to care brokers

Canadians facing long treatment waits using companies to find U.S. care

www.theglobeandmail.com

Robot Check

This Vet in Canada, saved her own life, by doing diagnostic tests on herself, because Canadian health care sucks.

After her experience, she started comparing the difference in how dogs and pets are treated better in Canada, than human beings. Hence the name lucky dog. If she had not been a vet, and had access to medical equipment designed for animals, she likely would be dead today.

Don't sit there and tell me how much cheaper it is, because that makes you the greedy bastard you were talking about before.... trading dollars.... for lives. You don't care how many people die, so long as you save money on insurance premiums? Really?

I can recover from a hospital bill, even a large one. I know because I've done it. But I can't recover from dying to your socialized health care. Save a few bucks, and end up in a grave? Brilliant.

You are hallucinating. Some people do come here from other countries for health care. Big deal. Maybe they were going to come here for some reason anyway and decided to do the doctor thing while they were here. And there are people in Canada who won't come here unless they buy insurance for while they are here. They do so because out health care system sucks. I showed you the statistics. Americans pay a larger portion of their GDP for healthcare than the people of countries who provide free health care. Those are the facts. Like it or lump it. And after you've lumped it, lump it again.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2016-08-03/canadians-increasingly-come-to-us-for-health-care

Canadians are not coming here for vacation, and just passing by a hospital. They are coming specifically for health care. Routinely.

Americans pay a larger portion of their GDP for healthcare than

Irrelevant. You pay more for a Lexus RX than you do for a Chevrolet Sonic. Does that mean the Lexus is obviously terrible, and the Sonic is the best car ever built?

Of course not. That would be stupid. You are assuming that the quality of the care provided in Canada, and around the world, is the same as it is here.

It is not.

Countries around the world have far fewer treatments than here in the US.

Hospital waiting times at worst-ever level

Record numbers in England are on hospital waiting lists, while A&E delays highest since target introduced.

www.bbc.com

Massive wait times.

Medical Tourism

www.europeanmedicaltourist.com

Why does medical tourism within Europe even exist? They are paying half their income in taxes, and they are supposed to get 'free' health care. Why is medical tourism for Europeans, growing dramatically? Why are people willing to go to Pay-for-Service Capitalist based profit-driven hospitals in Europe, when they supposedly get free health care, from that 50% tax rate they pay?

From the OECD data:

Let’s look at interventional outcomes. According to the CDC, stroke is the cause of more than 130,000 deaths annually in the United States. However, the US has significantly lower rates of 30-day stroke-induced mortality than every other OECD country, aside from Japan and Korea. OECD data suggest that the age- and sex-adjusted mortality rates within Europe would translate to tens of thousands of additional deaths in the US.

If American Healthcare Kills, European Healthcare Kills More | Mahdi Barakat

Now flip the question: How many people die in other countries due to deficiencies in their healthcare systems? And how many people would die in the US if we had treatment outcomes similar to those in other countries?

fee.org

Death rate 'much higher' in English than US hospitals

"NHS death rate is one of worst in the West," says the Daily Mail, while The Times front page warns of "Alarm over 'high' death rate in English hospitals". This story was covered by most news outlets, including The Daily Telegraph, which ...

www.nhs.uk

This story was covered by most UK news outlets, including The Daily Telegraph, which reports that NHS patients are 45% more likely to die than patients in the US. The Telegraph says that data "over more than 10 years found NHS mortality rates were among the worst of those in seven developed countries".

But hey, at least those 45% that died, that would not have in the US... at least they didn't have an expensive medical bill.

Yes, Americans pay more for health care.

Because it's better.

If we had free healthcare, do you know what would change? NOTHING! The only thing that would change is who pays the bill. I also said that ever country with free health care goes about things a little differently. You said that in some aspects, Japan and South Korea do well. Well when we set up our universal health care system, all we have to do is what they're doing.

So you want the federal government coming out every year to measure your waist, and give you X amount of time to lose weight, and if you fail the second time, be shipped off to some fat farm?

Sorry, we don't want that here.

Is that what they do in Japan and South Korea? I've never heard of that one. So excuse me if I don't believe it.

Since you insist on remaining ignorant and not read what I post, of course you don't believe me when I say the Japanese govnerment comes out to measure your waist. It's in the article though.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Do you enjoy being so full of shit. The UK not being able to feed itself is a whole different topic. As for international trade, I was talking about what the U.S. imports. Unless it is something we don't have or have very much of, like neodymium, we shouldn't be importing anything. If we can't make it here, we don't need it. And there isn't anything we can't make here.

Instead of thinking you have all the great ideas, here is a short and sweet column written by Dr. Walter E Williams, an economics professor. It is dated--back to when Obama became President, but his facts and figures are relatively the same today.

Foreign Trade Angst

Presidential candidates Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama, pandering to anti-trade activists, suggest that should they become president, they will restrict trade agreements.

townhall.com

Just being a doctor doesn't make him right. The proof of that is in the trade deficit. Do you know what that means? Money out of our pockets. And anything Hillary or Obama may have said is just talk. Nothing those fools really wanted change. Or it would have happened. And Hillary's husband Bill was the one who actually signed NAFTA and GATT into law!

The proof of that is in the trade deficit. Do you know what that means? Money out of our pockets.

How does the trade deficit mean "Money out of our pockets"? Be specific.

Do you know the difference between owing somebody money and not owing them money?

Picture this, I buy something made in America with a $10 bill.
I also buy something made in Japan with a $10 bill.

I did both things of my own free will. How do I owe, or America owes, for either?

Be specific.

Think of America as a pocket with money in it. If you buy something made in America, the money just goes into another American's pocket. If you buy something made in another country, the money basically goes into the pocket of that country. Do you understand the concept of your country and not your country?

Were you confused about what debt means?
If I buy something for cash, America isn't going into debt, even if I buy from Japan.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Because they aren't being run by people with that much intelligence. People like me.

You're a moron.

 

[Andylusion]

Just have the government provide everything

i want them to stfu, stop trying to buy me off, and let me go to work

~S~

I want them to give us some more fucking money! So people don't HAVE to go to work right now and help prevent who knows how many more hundreds of thousands of deaths. You what to work and can't. Boo Hoo. People are DYING!

We don't have money. You sound like a spoiled brat child screaming at daddy "I want it" when daddy doesn't have money just magically to give you.

The government is running a huge deficit. We don't have endless money to spend on screaming people.

Get a job. Get back to work. End the lock down.

If there was no money, there would be endless amounts of it. Next, piss off. People are DYING! Over 100,000 so far in only four months.

"If there was no money.... there would be endless amounts of it."

I can't even now determine which of your statements in this thread is the dumbest. It is like you are competing against yourself to say something even dumber than what you have already spoken.

What if money was like the air. Basically, there would be endless amounts of it. Do you get it now?

That's exactly what money is, an endless amount of it. It's up to you to determine how much of it you want or need. Unlike air, it's not going to drift your way. You have to go out and get it for yourself. You have to make smart decisions from young on. You have to avoid having children you can't or can barely afford. You may take the route of an advanced education, opening up your own business, investing in stocks, real estate or the commodities market. If you are going to work for somebody else, you need to put down the pot so you can pass a drug screen for better paying jobs. But it's all up to you. The sky is the limit unless you suffer from mental or physical illnesses.

Fucking other people over, an endless amount of it. That is what capitalism is all about. Getting as much money-status for as little effort as possible. Such as the approach that Andrew Carnegie took. He considered the poor working conditions, long work hours and poor pay that he subjected his workers to as survival of the fittest. As if he was actually improving mankind. When what he was actually doing was stuffing his pockets with as much money as they could hold. The more things change, the more they stay the same. These days, we just ship our jobs to poor countries to treat their workers badly. To have them have child labor. To let them pollute as much as they can get away with.

Fucking other people over, an endless amount of it. That is what capitalism is all about.

Funny how all the wealthy people are in capitalist country, and all the impoverished are in non-capitalist countries.

And I mean average citizens that are wealthy. I'm talking if you earn $32K a year, you are the top 1% of the world.

Why is it that all the 1%ers are in capitalist countries? And all the impoverished starving people are in non-capitalist countries?

Why are not the average people of American being the ones starving to death, and all the socialist countries without capitalist, being the ones wealthy? After all, there are no wealthy people screwing over Venezuelans, and Cubans, and North Koreans, yet they have mass deaths, and we don't.

Why are the people of Haiti impoverished, and the people of America the 1% of the world?

Getting as much money-status for as little effort as possible.

Do you shop around for the cheapest deal? I do. Do you go to the story that has best prices? I do. If you can buy the same product for a fraction of the cost, do you pay more expensive price, or the cheaper?

You get the cheaper price. If you could buy the exact same car, for $5,000 less, with the same service, warranty and everything you would.

So you are trying to get as much money-status as possible, for the least effort as possible.

I guess you are no better than Andrew Carnegie.

As if he was actually improving mankind.

He did. That's not opinion, that's fact. Mankind advanced because transportation of the railroads, and that happened because of the production of steel in the US. There is no question Carnegie was a benefit to mankind.

These days, we just ship our jobs to poor countries to treat their workers badly. To have them have child labor. To let them pollute as much as they can get away with.

You are acting like if we didn't do that, that somehow it wouldn't happen.

If you can't do the job profitably here, then it wouldn't be done.

It's not like if you just... didn't ship the job there, that magically the jobs would still exist here. If it is not profitable to build something here, it is not going to be built here.

Again, I was at a company that faced this question dead on. Producing the product would have lost the company money. Why would you do something that lost you money? Why would you spend a $100 to earn $80?

Well you wouldn't. The company CEO opposed outsourcing production to the very bitter end. But ultimately you can't magically make math bend because you don't want to outsource.

It was either outsource the product.... or don't build the product. And a competitor company in China would end up building it anyway. So why not have us build it, and at least we here in the US, get the profits?

So we outsourced, and built the product.

Either we outsource to China, or we don't build the product. And if we don't, someone else will.

So either way.... production will move to where it is profitable. No policy or tax, or legislation is going to change that. If it is not profitable to build in the US, it won't be built in the US. That's it. The end.

 

[Andylusion]

If I had to guess, I would say that our government will probably go for the latter. Which is also helped along by president Chump giving encouragement to the protesters why want to re-open the economy. And there are a lot of people suffering economic hardship. But seeing how there isn't likely to be a second round of stimulus checks, many have no choice but to go back to work. Even if it means risking their lives and spreading the coronavirus even more.

Over 80,000 people have died so far. What is the amount of genocide our country is willing to endure at the altar of capitalism as we know it. For those in power, more than likely any level of slaughter is acceptable to preserve capitalism as it was before the coronavirus.

Where does the money come from????

The same place it comes from now. Pretend land. Our fiat currency is probably over 20 trillion in debt. It doesn't matter if it is 40 trillion. Though before the coronavirus thing hit, the U.S. was paying around 420 billion dollars a year just on the interest of our national debt. Which is basically money flushed down the toilet. And we just burrow more money to pay that. We need to just tell whoever we owe interest to to suck it! Apart from the national debt, we also have around 61 trillion worth of unfunded obligations. And I don't want to split the hair between a debt and an obligation.

We need to just tell whoever we owe interest to to suck it!

But you want to borrow more money for handouts to you?

You're not real bright, are you?

Usury is for suckers and slaves.

Well ok....

But understand that if you eliminate Usury, then you are not going to borrow anymore.

That means if you don't have money for a car, then you simply don't get a car.

And if there isn't money for Social Security, then there is no Social Security.

If you don't have money for education, then you simply don't get education.

If there is no money for Medicare, then you simply don't get Medicare.

I'm somewhat sympathetic to the concept of banning Usury. But you need to understand what that means. No credit cards. If you want to go out to eat, because some friends came into town unexpected, and you don't have money.... you don't go out to eat.

Are you ok with this?

You don't need usury to have any of that. When inflation heats up, the fed increases interests payments. If the economy is doing poorly, the fed nearly eliminates interest payments-usury.

Without Usury, it does not matter what the Fed does.... if you don't have the money to buy something... then you are not going to be able to buy it. No matter what the Fed does.

You don't make any sense.

If you want to buy a house.... and there is no Usury... why would anyone lend you the money to buy a house? They wouldn't.

Doesn't matter what the Fed does. Why would I loan you $100,000 to buy a house, if I can't earn a profit off of loaning you the money? Without Usury, I would get back $100,000 on my $100,000 loan.

Why would I do this? I wouldn't.

If I'm a bank, I'm not going to give you a mortgage, because why would I do something that earns me nothing? Has nothing to do with the Fed. Fed has zero influence on this choice.

I'm simply not going to loan you the money. It would be better for me to invest that $100,000 in stocks. At least with stocks I'll get a return on my investment.

No Usury, means no money for you. If you don't have the cash, you don't get the stuff.

If you are ok with that, so am I. I'm all for banning Usury. But you need to understand... no house unless you have cash. No car unless you have cash. Doesn't matter what the Fed does. No one is going to loan you money, if they can't make a profit.

Face it. Capitalism is a farce. Everything should be provided by the government. Taking care of the people is their job. (At least, it should be) Not kissing hands and shaking babies. Housing, health care, education and transportation should be free. Free Free FREEEEEEEEEE!!!! Healthcare should apply equally to anybody. But as far as everything else goes, it would have to depend on your station in life. Those who are doctors or scientists for example should have better housing and transportation than a laborer. In return, people give their labor to support society.

In my town they have a plan to make the bridges toll bridges. In other words, privatize them. But those people are in it to make a profit. If you want something done as cheaply as possible, providing companies with profit isn't the way to go. No doubt one way they would do it is by paying their workers less and giving them fewer benefits than a city worker would get. Which is a race to the bottom. Screw that.

Who would work? Why work? Why invent? Why produce? Why research? Why do anything but sit around?

Your opinion of humanity is delusional. People are inventive. Producing gives them a sense of pride and worth.

Nah, give me what I want, new car, new motorhome, new home, all the money I want, free healthcare, free food, free electric, free campsites when I travel. Hell, if you can get it why not me? I’ve worked hard all my life. The government owes me tons!

What if you were given all those things. But for a price. That price being that you do whatever part you can in seeing to it that everybody else can receive those things too. (Which wouldn't mean working people to death) Would you sign on for that? Or are you so brainwashed that you think that greed and accumulating as much as you can at any negative cost to society is the best option for society.

Greed goes both ways, you want to exploit people and tell them what they can make.

No. Greed goes one way. The more you have, the more you want. Also, study's have shown that the more poor a person is, the more honest they are likely to be. Another thing is that part of the way people make money in this country is in trying to convince others that they want something that they don't really need. This too is driven by greed. It shouldn't be that way. And in at least the next 50 years, it won't be. Because most of humanity and the rest of life on this planet will be extinct due to human caused global warming. Some say it will be within the next 20 years.

No. Greed goes one way. The more you have, the more you want.

No. You are wrong. In fact, the people who earn the most, are most likely to give it away.

It's the people who are poor, that try and end up miserly and pinching every single penny.

Another thing is that part of the way people make money in this country is in trying to convince others that they want something that they don't really need. This too is driven by greed.

Funny, because I saw millions of dollars spent trying to convince everyone, that we wanted universal government run health care. I saw millions spent by Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton, and numerous others, that we wanted those idiots in office.

Must be all greedy bastards then.

This is dumb argument. That's retarded. I don't know what you did for a living, but my guess is your paycheck was tied to a marketing campaign somewhere. Every wage I earned in my life, was tied to marketing on something.

And in at least the next 50 years, it won't be.

Soviets said the same thing. So did Hugo Chavez in Venezuela. Not convincing me.

Because most of humanity and the rest of life on this planet will be extinct due to human caused global warming. Some say it will be within the next 20 years.

And there you have it. We're back to John Maynard Keynes "in the long run, we're all dead".

View attachment 341630

Look, if the world is going to end anyway, then what difference does it make if you get free education?

Dumb dumb dumb.

You must be high. If the wealthy gave their money away, they wouldn't have it to begin with. But I know what you're getting at. Who they leave their money to after they die. Well for any that might, chances are that many would do the types of things that Andrew Carnegie did. Building Carnegie Hall and other monuments to his vanity. And the reason why he could do so it because he had far more money than he needed. What I call somebody who has far more than they need is a pig.

Next, if you don't have pennys, what is there to pinch. On the other hand, I heard of a wealthy miserly woman. She had millions. But wouldn't pay for an operation that her son needed.

Next, people who didn't want universal health care spent far more. Also, some years ago there were some asshole tea party protesters across the street who were protesting against universal health care. At the end of the line where they had their cars parked, there were two people sitting in the back of their car promoting universal health care. Being so cool, I decided to go over and talk to them. I brought up to one of them how some insurance companies (though probably all) will have workers who's whole job is to dig up bullshit from the past of those they insure and use it as a reason to deny them coverage. Causing those people pain, suffering and death. As it turned out, the person I was talking to worked at an insurance company himself. And that was his job there. No doubt he was protesting for universal health care because he had a guilty conscience.

Also, I had the same sort of thing happen to me once. I got hit by a car in Florida. I was on a motorcycle stopped at a light and was hit from behind. Everybody was amazed that I survived. For the guy that hit me, his insurance dug up some bullshit from his past and denied him coverage. Leaving me fucked.

It might interest you to know that if we had universal health care, from what we would save on such pointless bureaucracy, it alone would pay for around half of what universal health care costs. And as I was saying to someone else, as a percentage of various countries GDP, the U.S. pays more and gets less than what other developed countries pay as a percentage of their GDP. I even remember hearing of some drug company here in the U.S. that made a particular drug that had been around for a long time. They raised the price of it by 100,000%! Need I go on.

If the wealthy gave their money away, they wouldn't have it to begin with.

There are many ways to give away money, that doesn't involve you becoming poor.

That's a dumb comment. Say I own a business, and my business generates $200,000 in profit for me.

I could give away $100,000 a year, every single year, and still be massively wealthy. In fact, not only could I give away $100,000 a year, but I could invest some of the remaining, and increase my net worth year over year, while still being extremely charitable.

Prove to me, you at least have some amount of intelligence at all, and stop saying ridiculously stupid comments. Think before you type, sir. Dumb statement. Very dumb.

What I call somebody who has far more than they need is a pig.

Just remember this.... to everyone in the world... you are the pig. You have far more than you need.

"more than they need" is subjective, and to 99% of this planet, you are the wealthy pig hording everything.

On the other hand, I heard of a wealthy miserly woman. She had millions. But wouldn't pay for an operation that her son needed.

Yes, and that is one example from how many millions on millions of wealthy people in this country?

We all know there are crazy people. Try not to judge everyone, based on the actions of the very few.

Next, people who didn't want universal health care spent far more.

Factually untrue. The most expensive plan at my multinational company of thousands on thousands of employees, was $350/month. That's the high end expensive family plan.

Universal health care is going to cost double our taxes. At the low end, it will cost a 12% increase in taxes, from the lowest tax bracket up.

Let's take a median income of $40,000 a year. 20% in taxes to pay for Universal Health care, would be $8,000 or $666 a month. The high end of the middle class would be around $60,000 a year, and that would cost $12,000 a year, or $1,000 a month. I don't know anyone paying that much for insurance.

I personally have never paid more than $200 a month for insurance anywhere.

Saying Universal Health care will cost less than our current system... is just factually wrong. Ridiculous honestly. Again, when you look at Europe, you don't see anyone anywhere in Europe that is paying less than we are. Not one. They all pay more... much more.

Again, marginal tax rate for someone earning $37,000 in the US is 22%. In the EU, it's 49%. More than double. And they earn less money than we do. They earn less, because of their tax and social systems. So they earn much less, and keep less of the less they earn.

And you think we'll end up better off using their system? You are crazy.

No doubt he was protesting for universal health care because he had a guilty conscience.

No. Insurance stand to make big money working with the government. The more you involve government with insurance companies, the more the insurance companies are going to make.

Free-markets make monopolies hard, because anyone can compete, and then you have to compete on services and prices. Competition makes life hard. You can't charge too much, or the customers leave. You can't save money by cutting services, or the customers leave. You have to constantly be checking to see where you are in the market, constantly checking your customer base to see if they are happy, and there is always a new competitor around the corner.

But with government, it is just like the BMV, and the Post Office, you can treat people like crap, and it doesn't affect you, because your money comes from government.

And generally you are shield by government when things go badly. Look at Franklin Raines. He was caught clearly fudging the numbers at Fannie Mae. Clear corruption, by fabricating profits, to trigger executive bonuses.

What happened to him? Nothing. We the tax payers paid for the entire failure of Fannie Mae, and Franklin Raines, didn't even go to trial for clear fraud, let alone prison.

Trust me, the biggest insurance companies are all completely in favor of Universal Health Care. They know they are going to make billions in profit, while being able to treat their customers like crap, and nothing will happen to them, because they'll have the backing of government.

This is why I've said hundreds of times, the socialists and left-wingers are the biggest pawns of big business there is. All the big companies have you people, wrapped around their figure, dancing to their tune, so they can make billions of dollars while we suffer... and you promote this to your own death.

Why don't you stop speaking crap. I said that as a percentage of various countries GDP, the ones who provide universal health care pay less. That's the end of the story. And here is something to back it up.

View attachment 342199

Nothing you said here, changes the facts I presented.

If you look at the tax rates required to pay for universal health care, you are going to pay more in taxes, than you ever did in premiums.

That's math. Your stats... don't change MATH.

Further, I agree that we do spend more... and we get better care than any of those countries. Every single time that they compare Survival rates between the US, and anywhere else, we have higher survival rates.

Why do you think every single year, Canadians come to the US for care? Because we have better care.

We have people that come here from all over the world. People from Australia, Sweden, Denmark, and Germany, come to the US for health care, because their care system sucks.

It's not because of price.

Americans will go aboard for care.... yes.... to reduce price.

But why are people from Europe routinely coming to the US for care? For price? No, because they have no price.

Why are they coming here? Why would they choose to pay for health care, that they supposedly get for free in Canada, and Europe? Why?

Because they'll die. Why will they die? Because their health care sucks.

Timely Medical | Timely Surgery at Affordable Prices

Recover quickly from surgery with Timely Medical. Enjoy discounts up to 80% and return to your routine within two weeks. Contact us for a free consult.

www.timelymedical.ca

Do you know what this company does in Canada? They charge people... to get care..... outside of Canada. Because their health care sucks.

How could a company like this exist in a country with "free" health care provided by the government?

Because government run care.... SUCKS.

Patients turning to care brokers

Canadians facing long treatment waits using companies to find U.S. care

www.theglobeandmail.com

Robot Check

This Vet in Canada, saved her own life, by doing diagnostic tests on herself, because Canadian health care sucks.

After her experience, she started comparing the difference in how dogs and pets are treated better in Canada, than human beings. Hence the name lucky dog. If she had not been a vet, and had access to medical equipment designed for animals, she likely would be dead today.

Don't sit there and tell me how much cheaper it is, because that makes you the greedy bastard you were talking about before.... trading dollars.... for lives. You don't care how many people die, so long as you save money on insurance premiums? Really?

I can recover from a hospital bill, even a large one. I know because I've done it. But I can't recover from dying to your socialized health care. Save a few bucks, and end up in a grave? Brilliant.

You are hallucinating. Some people do come here from other countries for health care. Big deal. Maybe they were going to come here for some reason anyway and decided to do the doctor thing while they were here. And there are people in Canada who won't come here unless they buy insurance for while they are here. They do so because out health care system sucks. I showed you the statistics. Americans pay a larger portion of their GDP for healthcare than the people of countries who provide free health care. Those are the facts. Like it or lump it. And after you've lumped it, lump it again.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2016-08-03/canadians-increasingly-come-to-us-for-health-care

Canadians are not coming here for vacation, and just passing by a hospital. They are coming specifically for health care. Routinely.

Americans pay a larger portion of their GDP for healthcare than

Irrelevant. You pay more for a Lexus RX than you do for a Chevrolet Sonic. Does that mean the Lexus is obviously terrible, and the Sonic is the best car ever built?

Of course not. That would be stupid. You are assuming that the quality of the care provided in Canada, and around the world, is the same as it is here.

It is not.

Countries around the world have far fewer treatments than here in the US.

Hospital waiting times at worst-ever level

Record numbers in England are on hospital waiting lists, while A&E delays highest since target introduced.

www.bbc.com

Massive wait times.

Medical Tourism

www.europeanmedicaltourist.com

Why does medical tourism within Europe even exist? They are paying half their income in taxes, and they are supposed to get 'free' health care. Why is medical tourism for Europeans, growing dramatically? Why are people willing to go to Pay-for-Service Capitalist based profit-driven hospitals in Europe, when they supposedly get free health care, from that 50% tax rate they pay?

From the OECD data:

Let’s look at interventional outcomes. According to the CDC, stroke is the cause of more than 130,000 deaths annually in the United States. However, the US has significantly lower rates of 30-day stroke-induced mortality than every other OECD country, aside from Japan and Korea. OECD data suggest that the age- and sex-adjusted mortality rates within Europe would translate to tens of thousands of additional deaths in the US.

If American Healthcare Kills, European Healthcare Kills More | Mahdi Barakat

Now flip the question: How many people die in other countries due to deficiencies in their healthcare systems? And how many people would die in the US if we had treatment outcomes similar to those in other countries?

fee.org

Death rate 'much higher' in English than US hospitals

"NHS death rate is one of worst in the West," says the Daily Mail, while The Times front page warns of "Alarm over 'high' death rate in English hospitals". This story was covered by most news outlets, including The Daily Telegraph, which ...

www.nhs.uk

This story was covered by most UK news outlets, including The Daily Telegraph, which reports that NHS patients are 45% more likely to die than patients in the US. The Telegraph says that data "over more than 10 years found NHS mortality rates were among the worst of those in seven developed countries".

But hey, at least those 45% that died, that would not have in the US... at least they didn't have an expensive medical bill.

Yes, Americans pay more for health care.

Because it's better.

If we had free healthcare, do you know what would change? NOTHING! The only thing that would change is who pays the bill. I also said that ever country with free health care goes about things a little differently. You said that in some aspects, Japan and South Korea do well. Well when we set up our universal health care system, all we have to do is what they're doing.

So you want the federal government coming out every year to measure your waist, and give you X amount of time to lose weight, and if you fail the second time, be shipped off to some fat farm?

Sorry, we don't want that here.

Is that what they do in Japan and South Korea? I've never heard of that one. So excuse me if I don't believe it.

Japan Enforces Legal Limit On Waistlines

Japan Enforces Legal Limit On Waistlines

www.huffpost.com

Summoned by the city of Amagasaki one recent morning, Minoru Nogiri, 45, a flower shop owner, found himself lining up to have his waistline measured. With no visible paunch, he seemed to run little risk of being classified as overweight, or metabo, the preferred word in Japan these days.

But because the new state-prescribed limit for male waistlines is a strict 33.5 inches, he had anxiously measured himself at home a couple of days earlier. “I’m on the border,” he said.

Japan, Seeking Trim Waists, Measures Millions (Published 2008)

A country not known for obesity has undertaken an ambitious campaign to slim down its citizenry.

www.nytimes.com

Man, how do you not know this stuff? You claim to be so smart, and know everything about universal health care.

They started this in 2008. That 12 years ago, and you don't know?

I guess you are not as smart as you claim, huh?

 

[Papageorgio]

Its time to get back to work. The virus is waning if we can keep it going down.
The summer heat is almost here. Lets hope the virus keeps slowing, and slowing, and slowing....
View attachment 336171

From what I have been seeing on the news, many states are reopening even though the cases of coronavirus is still increasing. Also, how many instances of coronavirus in this country did it take to get the whole ball rolling to begin with. 2 or 3?

Then why isn't the pandemic still going out of control in the NYC area?
Its going down, with 1,417,350 US cases, how can it go down with so many active cases, not just 1 or 2?

Because of quarantine. With the 2 or 3 who got the whole plague rolling here, there was no quarantine.

Yes there most certainly was a quarantine here, for travelers from China, but not from Europe?!
Quarantine? Not all of the 1.4m are quarantined, so why isn't the pandemic still going out of control in the NYC area?
You did not answer this question: What's a worse condition, 1.4m cases or a few?
We have the 1.4m now and the number of cases is going down, why? How can that be?

President Chump just didn't handle things well. And he still isn't.

Really? So what should he have done? I'll show you why he couldn't or didn't.

Well, president Chump could have started out by not calling the coronavirus a hoax at the beginning.

He didn't call it a hoax, he called what Democrats were trying to do with it another one of their hoaxes. Of course this was before we had any idea how this thing would impact us. But lets say he never made that statement. How would that have changed our current plight?

He called it a hoax. Next, it would have changed our current plight by taking it seriously from the beginning. And there would be over 30,000 fewer dead people.

President Trump is a former businessman, not a former scientist or medical expert. He took the advice from our various health agencies and his medical team to make decisions. Even in late February, Dr. Fauci made a public statement that this virus was nothing of great concern; go out and live life as you always have, and there is no need to use gloves or masks.

When the WHO made a public statement about their concern of this virus in late January, President Trump took action the next day. No, he didn't shutdown the country, but he did take a few precautionary measures, and increased those measures as new information because available, and his team and agencies were able to form a better opinion.

Today the CDC made an announcement that 35% of the Covid cases were with asymptomatic people. That means this virus likely has been with us much longer than we thought. Asymptomatic people have the virus and don't become ill because of it. However they are just as contagious as those that did get ill. That means these people were hugging their friends and family, shaking hands with strangers, drinking at bars and eating at restaurants, squeezing fruit and vegetables at their grocery store.

As for the non-asymptomatic people, the symptoms are similar to a bad cold or early flu, which a lot of people never seek medical attention for.

Therefore your theory about saving 30,000 people is your opinion, not fact.

Saving over 30,000 people with earlier action is what they said on the news last night. But admittedly, you can't always believe the news. For example, they say that Armaud Arbery was murdered. Though like it or not, president Chump started out by calling the whole thing a hoax. And it seems every step of the way, he has been dragging his feet. As for his "experts," they are on his payroll. They will basically say what they're told to say. Including the CDC. Don't believe it? Watch the documentary, "What lies upstream."

Your documentaries are not Gospel. They are trying to get you to watch their programming for profit.

Yes, if we started in September of last year, we could have saved tens of thousands of lives, but who knew what could happen back then? Trump didn't drag his feet. Our agencies are mired in red tape, and they practice these unnecessary prolonged actions that the President is not in control of.

In late February of this year, Cuomo was urging people to not worry about this silly virus. Go out, shop, dine, and carry on with your normal life. DeBlazio sent the same message to NYC residents around that same time. Piglosi was telling people to visit Chinatown. NOBODY KNEW!!!! The first two weeks of March, the House Democrats were trying to pass a bill stripping the President of his exclusive right to issue travel bans.

Bottom line is armchair quarterbacks like yourself can make any claim they desire. I always said if you want to hit todays lottery, buy tomorrows newspaper. Easier said than done.

Did you see any of those documentaries? Until you do, you can't have any kind of opinion about them. Next, nobody said anything about September. They were talking about early March.

You leftists always pull this stunt. So let me be clear up front: If I had to watch every documentary a leftists tells me to watch, watch every movie, read every book you people read, I wouldn't have time to come here and discuss politics. If you have a short article, sure, if I have time, I'll go through it. But I'm not going to spend hours and hours to reply to each and every leftist comment. You wouldn't read any book or watch any documentary I suggest either. Nobody has that kind of time.

You should listen to me. Your intellectual superior. I have no interest in steering you wrong. And you shouldn't assume I'm trying to do so. Take the documentary I mentioned called, "What lies upstream." I will tell you some of what you don't want to find out about yourself. First, companies aren't required to tell what the toxic effects of any chemical they make are. And the can lie about it! The CDC is fine with this because their leadership is appointed by the pro-business leadership of the government. Republican or democrat. Also, do you know how chemical companies get rid of their toxic waist? Basically, they flush it down the toilet! And it is perfectly legal!!! So what is the point of you having the time to say things here when all you have to speak about is shit to begin with.

Oh please, so you watch these "documentaries" and conclude they are all Gospel? WTF would make you think that? I always question what's told to me from somebody trying to make money by getting my attention, even if it's something that leans towards my political persuasion.

Facebook is loaded with conspiracy theories that after enough attention, is proven false by another entity. And as my intellectual superior, you should know by now that what you call toxic waist is spelled W-A-S-T-E, not W-A-I-S-T.

Thanks for letting me know about a typo. But as far as I can see, correcting my grammar is the best you've got. As for the conspiracy angle, they talked to the experts. People with PhD's in their particular fields. Top experts. As in there being just about no other people on the planet that may know more. You may not think so. But such people are well worth listening to.

Another documentary I mentioned to you was, "Where to invade next." Here is a piece of information from it that you can consider to be bullshit at your leisure. Apparently, Norway has the most highly educated students in the world. At the very least, they are in the top three. You might find how they accomplished this to be interesting. They eliminated homework. It seems counterintuitive. But it is a reality. In school, how much homework did you do. I didn't do any. Maybe that explains my intelligence.

Since you studied it so intensely, tell me, does Norway have anything comparable to our teachers unions? Does Norway have three months of vacation from school every year?

Somebody being an expert does not mean they are not biased. We have scientist who believe in global warming, and others who believe it's BS. We have "experts" who believe there is life on other planets, and others who do not. We have engineers who said that 911 was an inside job. Others say those people are FOS.

Being an expert doesn't mean you are always right. Speaking of which, I was never a spellcheck cop. But when somebody tires to degrade me by claiming their intellectual superioriority, the least you can do is proofread your post.

Why not watch the documentary, "Where to invade next" and find out. You would be dumbfounded, absolutely blown away by what people in European countries get that we don't. Though as Michael Moore says, things over there aren't perfect. But he's there to pick the flowers. Not the weeds. He was there to invade those countries and take back to the U.S. the spoils of his invasion. As in the good ideas. The things that have been demonstrated to work. At least over there. But maybe with out large negro and mexican population, they wouldn't work here. But it would be well worth impaling and deporting the hindrance for many other reasons. Also, I wasn't trying to degrade you. Just some of the things you talk about. Even a genius could probably be brainwashed. (But not me)

You would be dumbfounded, absolutely blown away by what people in European countries get that we don't.

A lower standard of living, smaller cars, smaller homes, a smaller economy.

They also have 8 bucks a gallon for gasoline.

But their societies weren't structures around the automobile. Unlike ours. Here, we have a lot of suburban sprawl. People live so way far out that if there was ever an EMP that killed cars, they would find it very difficult to get food.

You are putting the cart, in front of the horse.

The whole reason we have suburban sprawl.... is directly because Americans are wealthy enough to have a car, and desire to have a house farther away from the noisy crime infested inner city areas.

Yeah, their societies are less structured around automobiles....... because they couldn't afford to drive automobiles all the time.

If you take those people, and bring them to the US, where they earn more money, and pay less taxes, you what those people's from those cultures do?

They buy the biggest SUV they can, and buy a house in the suburbs.

They would do the same thing in Europe... they just can't. They can't afford it, because they are poor.

I had this couple from Laos. Escaped the communists in Laos. Talk about running through the woods, being shot at by police. Freaky stuff.

Made it to the US embassy, came to the US. Didn't know English. Had to learn English. Got training on how to do CNC work. Got jobs, making $100,000 a year. (combined).

This tiny Laos woman, bought herself, a Ford Excursion, and they bought a house in the suburbs.

I asked her if she would go back to Laos. She's wants to, because she loved the people, and the land, but if she went back, she'd be poor. The government takes all the money.

This is the reality throughout all Europe.

Why do you think the Yellow Vest protest happened? They have all that free stuff you mentioned. You know what they don't have? Money. Their poor. Because the government takes all the money. The thing that triggered the protest, was the tax hike by the government to improve social services.

They are poor. I've been there. I've seen them living in 600 sqft apartments with no air conditioning, and hanging cloths up on wires inside their 600 sqft apartment. I've seen it.

Yeah, their societies are not built around automobiles, because they can't afford automobiles. Even those that have them, can't afford to drive them.

Economically, (for instance) we ARE a third world country compared to Germany. Given their size, when it comes to the yearly value of their exports, they leave the U.S. in the dust. They have the ability to have anything they want and any size they want. But just from how their society functions, they apparently don't feel they need it.

As for the couple from Laos, who let them assholes into our country. I was watching some show one time where they were talking to people from Laos. Some of their cultural beliefs are pretty despicable compared to what White people believe. What our country should have done is leave them in the hell hole they created for themselves and train a White person to do CNC work. (Whatever that is)

Economically, (for instance) we ARE a third world country compared to Germany.

The evidence I presented, proves that your claim is false.

As for the couple from Laos, who let them assholes into our country. I was watching some show one time where they were talking to people from Laos. Some of their cultural beliefs are pretty despicable compared to what White people believe. What our country should have done is leave them in the hell hole they created for themselves and train a White person to do CNC work. (Whatever that is)

Well... we disagree on that. I'm more like Trump, in that I'm all in favor of legal immigration.

Honestly, I'm sure that white people like you describe yourself exist in society somewhere, I can't say that I've ever met any white person with the views you described.

But then again, I'm conservative, from a family of conservatives, from a church of conservatives, with conservative relatives.

In short, we're good people. I don't know people like you. So.. I would be polite, but I don't associate with people like you. I only meet people like you described yourself, on the internet. I remember some guy spouted that crap on Facebook. Don't know how he was even on my friends list, but I fixed that pretty quick.

But we're good people. We hate criminals obviously. You come here legally... only.. But if you follow our laws, I'm all for it. My last roomate was a Muslim from Bangladesh. He wanted to rent an apartment until his wife arrived. We (me and my parents together) went to his citizenship ceremony. Of course entirely legal immigration.

So no, I don't identify with people like you at all.

And I presented evidence to the contrary of yours. I told somebody around here about something I came across once. It had to do with the yearly value of the exports of the U.S. compared to Germany. Germany is a much smaller country with few natural resources. Their population is also around 81 million. The U.S. is a far larger country with a lot of arable land and many natural resources. Our population is also around 319 million people. The value of our exports for one particular year was around 1 trillion, 600 billion. For Germany it was 1 trillion, 400 million. So I am right.

You also say you support foreign scab scum. Just like president Chump. In that, you are outright evil. I have a book to suggest to you. But I doubt if you would ever read it.

We exported about $2.5 trillion last year, Germany exported $1.5 trillion.
Why does Germany suck so much?

I looked again. I found that the U.S. exported 1 trillion, 645 billion in goods. Germany exported 1 trillion, 489 billion in goods. And as I said, Germany is a far smaller country. The reason why food prices are higher in Europe is because the place doesn't have nearly as much farm land or places for cattle to graze as the U.S. Also, the total value of what Germany imports is 1 trillion, 236 billion. The total value of what the U.S. imports is 3.1 trillion. If any country sucks, it is ours.

View attachment 341999

The land being used for farming in the EU, has declined.

This is why they are importing food more and more. If I had to guess, I would wager this has to do with government interference, but that's just a guess.

Also, the total value of what Germany imports is 1 trillion, 236 billion. The total value of what the U.S. imports is 3.1 trillion. If any country sucks, it is ours.

I disagree with the way the previous conversation was going.

You and me, both own a store. I make millions. I go to your store, and I can buy everything in the store. This is because the products you sell are cheap... and I make millions.

You barely make minimum wage. When you come to my store, you can barely afford to buy one item from my store. This is because I make expensive products, and you are poor.

If we drew a line between us, and called my said Andy-Country, and your side (fittingly) Quarantine-Country.... It would look like I imported millions from you, while you imported a hundred bucks from me.

Based on what, would you claim "I suck" because I'm rich, wealthy, and can afford everything I want from others?

Imports are not a negative. In fact, they are a positive.

Rich people buy.... read Import... more from poor people, because poor people are poor, and rich people are rich.

The US buys... imports.... more from China, because the US is rich, and China is poor.

Very few wealthy countries, export more than they import, and it is usually tied to energy... natural gas, oil, and so on.

First, let's look at the UK. They have around 63 million people. If the whole country was to switch to an agrarian lifestyle, they could only raise enough food to feed about 8 million people. "Government interference" has nothing to do with it. How much land you have does. Now I will make a specist (racist) statement. Given this fact, only the lowest of lowlife traitorous scum would be letting lowlife sand negro scum emigrate to there. Or here. Or anywhere.

As for international trade, it just shouldn't be happening. Especially with the wage slave country China. As anybody can see, it is too one sided. In favor of China. If any trade isn't equal, (fair) then it is criminal. And what can somebody from China making 50 cents an hour buy from and American who makes 8 dollars an hour.

Also, there are species of ant that take other species as ant as slaves to do their work for them. They evolved to the point where the slaver ants can't even feed themselves without the slave ants feeding them. To me, it is the slaver ants who are the real slaves. Another thing is that a long time ago, Europe was hungry for Chinese porcelain and silks. This caused European countries to bleed money. And the Europeans didn't make anything that the Chinese needed. This cause European countries to export opium to China to get some money back. This led to the Opium Wars. And the Chinese didn't do so well.

First, let's look at the UK. They have around 63 million people. If the whole country was to switch to an agrarian lifestyle, they could only raise enough food to feed about 8 million people.

then you said:

As for international trade, it just shouldn't be happening.

So... in your world, 50 Million people and more, should just die.
That makes you worse than the "lowlife traitorous scum" you claim to hate.

Another thing is that a long time ago, Europe was hungry for Chinese porcelain and silks. This caused European countries to bleed money. And the Europeans didn't make anything that the Chinese needed. This cause European countries to export opium to China to get some money back. This led to the Opium Wars. And the Chinese didn't do so well.

I've read about this time period, a dozen times. That is not true.

Chinese and Europeans were trading in goods.

The cause of the Opium wars, was that China decided they didn't need to trade, and closed trade with Europe.

The result of that actions was that hundreds of businesses that were built on trade with China, were now stuck without work. Specifically I'm referring to the people who engaged in trade routes.

If you the owner of trade ships, and the biggest trade partner just closed your business.... what do you do?

Well, you can just close, and go bankrupt. Or if you can't sell things legally, perhaps you can sell stuff illegally.

The key with black market goods, is that it can't be bread. You can't sell something that doesn't bring in a huge profit, because doing smuggling is of course risky. Your ship could be caught at the port. The navy could find you. You could lose a ton of money, if the authorities find you.

So if you are going to smuggle something, it has to be something that will bring in the money. Opium was the commodity of choice, because it brought in enough money to offset the risk of smuggling.

If China had not closed trade, all of those ships and traders would not have switched to Opium, and the Opium wars would never have happened.

You have the worst history rewriting I have ever seen. Someone really screwed up your education bad.

Do you enjoy being so full of shit. The UK not being able to feed itself is a whole different topic. As for international trade, I was talking about what the U.S. imports. Unless it is something we don't have or have very much of, like neodymium, we shouldn't be importing anything. If we can't make it here, we don't need it. And there isn't anything we can't make here.

As to your crap about the opium wars, do have nothing better to do than tell lies? You don't sell opium to a country because they won't let you buy their goods. And I don't think China ever did strop exports. Because everybody likes money.

Do you enjoy being so full of shit.

No, but I enjoy talking to people who are... which is why I'm here.

The UK not being able to feed itself is a whole different topic. As for international trade, I was talking about what the U.S. imports.

You brought up the UK not being able to feed itself. You brought up that international trade should not exist.

If the UK didn't have trade, millions would die. Why you angry at me, for you falling into a trap of your own words?

Unless it is something we don't have or have very much of, like neodymium, we shouldn't be importing anything. If we can't make it here, we don't need it. And there isn't anything we can't make here.

Every single country that has engaged in that ideology has declined into poverty. Trade is inherently mutually beneficial. If it wasn't, we wouldn't engage in it.

Reducing something that is mutually beneficial, will harm us.

You do realize that the biggest legislative action in 1930, was the Smoot-Hawley Tariff that killed nearly all international trade with the US.

The results of harming trade, are universally negative.

Again, why would we put sanctions on Russia to prevent trade, if reducing trade was beneficial? Because trade is beneficial. That's why we put sanctions on countries doing something wrong.

As to your crap about the opium wars, do have nothing better to do than tell lies?

I've read about it for 10 years, from a wide variety of sources. I am confident what I said was the truth.

You don't sell opium to a country because they won't let you buy their goods.

Sure you do. In fact we have seen this repeatedly throughout the world. If you prevent legal ways of making money, the result is universally that people resort to illegal ways.

Jamaica for example. After Michael Manley engaged in socialism, and clamped down on business, the result was that people started selling illicit drugs and smuggling.

Tale of Two Islands - Econlib

Stanford University economists Peter Blair Henry and Conrad Miller recently published an interesting NBER Working Paper in which they compare economic policy and economic performance between Jamaica and Barbados. Henry and Miller point out that in Jamaica, the People’s National Party rose to...

www.econlib.org

Tale of Two Island, by Peter Blair Henry, whose father was an immigrant from Jamaica.

Another example would be Venezuela.

Drug smugglers found a backdoor to Europe — through Venezuela

With drug trafficking through Venezuela skyrocketing amid its collapse, its Caribbean islands have increasingly served as a way station for smugglers.

www.businessinsider.com

Since the socialism has destroyed legal methods of making a living in Venezuela, drug running and cartels have been moving into Venezuela at an exceptional rate.

So yes, absolutely after China cut off trade with Europe, the people in the trade business, moved from legal trade, to illegal trade.

That is exactly what happened.

Do you want to end poverty? Do away with money. That will fix the problem. Just have the government provide everything. I wonder what bullshit you will come up for with that.

Okay, if government provides everything, what's the point of going to work in the morning? What's the point in getting an advanced education? What would be the point of developing a new product or technology?

Don't be stupid and try to make what I said out to be something different. Just because the government provides everything doesn't mean you don't have to work. But for the time being, going to work can be deadly. That is the whole point of this thread. Also, remember that status thing I brought before that you didn't have anything to do with anything? People are always going to want more. As for being a doctor, there may also be some altruism to that. But otherwise, wanting a better position in life is a good reason for anybody to go to school. As for new products, a government rule would say that over time, they should be improved. As for technology, I don't think it's even possible to be a scientist without improving on that.

If you provide me absolutely everything I want... man I'm not going to work.

What are you going to do? Get a gun and force me to go to work?

If you give me free health care, free education, free food, free housing, and whatever else you dream up that should be free.....

You think I am going to work? Why would I do that?

Because if you don't work, you would go to a labor camp. Where you wouldn't have all that free stuff.

So slavery instead of freedom. No thanks.

 

[Papageorgio]

If I had to guess, I would say that our government will probably go for the latter. Which is also helped along by president Chump giving encouragement to the protesters why want to re-open the economy. And there are a lot of people suffering economic hardship. But seeing how there isn't likely to be a second round of stimulus checks, many have no choice but to go back to work. Even if it means risking their lives and spreading the coronavirus even more.

Over 80,000 people have died so far. What is the amount of genocide our country is willing to endure at the altar of capitalism as we know it. For those in power, more than likely any level of slaughter is acceptable to preserve capitalism as it was before the coronavirus.

Where does the money come from????

The same place it comes from now. Pretend land. Our fiat currency is probably over 20 trillion in debt. It doesn't matter if it is 40 trillion. Though before the coronavirus thing hit, the U.S. was paying around 420 billion dollars a year just on the interest of our national debt. Which is basically money flushed down the toilet. And we just burrow more money to pay that. We need to just tell whoever we owe interest to to suck it! Apart from the national debt, we also have around 61 trillion worth of unfunded obligations. And I don't want to split the hair between a debt and an obligation.

We need to just tell whoever we owe interest to to suck it!

But you want to borrow more money for handouts to you?

You're not real bright, are you?

Usury is for suckers and slaves.

Well ok....

But understand that if you eliminate Usury, then you are not going to borrow anymore.

That means if you don't have money for a car, then you simply don't get a car.

And if there isn't money for Social Security, then there is no Social Security.

If you don't have money for education, then you simply don't get education.

If there is no money for Medicare, then you simply don't get Medicare.

I'm somewhat sympathetic to the concept of banning Usury. But you need to understand what that means. No credit cards. If you want to go out to eat, because some friends came into town unexpected, and you don't have money.... you don't go out to eat.

Are you ok with this?

You don't need usury to have any of that. When inflation heats up, the fed increases interests payments. If the economy is doing poorly, the fed nearly eliminates interest payments-usury.

Without Usury, it does not matter what the Fed does.... if you don't have the money to buy something... then you are not going to be able to buy it. No matter what the Fed does.

You don't make any sense.

If you want to buy a house.... and there is no Usury... why would anyone lend you the money to buy a house? They wouldn't.

Doesn't matter what the Fed does. Why would I loan you $100,000 to buy a house, if I can't earn a profit off of loaning you the money? Without Usury, I would get back $100,000 on my $100,000 loan.

Why would I do this? I wouldn't.

If I'm a bank, I'm not going to give you a mortgage, because why would I do something that earns me nothing? Has nothing to do with the Fed. Fed has zero influence on this choice.

I'm simply not going to loan you the money. It would be better for me to invest that $100,000 in stocks. At least with stocks I'll get a return on my investment.

No Usury, means no money for you. If you don't have the cash, you don't get the stuff.

If you are ok with that, so am I. I'm all for banning Usury. But you need to understand... no house unless you have cash. No car unless you have cash. Doesn't matter what the Fed does. No one is going to loan you money, if they can't make a profit.

Face it. Capitalism is a farce. Everything should be provided by the government. Taking care of the people is their job. (At least, it should be) Not kissing hands and shaking babies. Housing, health care, education and transportation should be free. Free Free FREEEEEEEEEE!!!! Healthcare should apply equally to anybody. But as far as everything else goes, it would have to depend on your station in life. Those who are doctors or scientists for example should have better housing and transportation than a laborer. In return, people give their labor to support society.

In my town they have a plan to make the bridges toll bridges. In other words, privatize them. But those people are in it to make a profit. If you want something done as cheaply as possible, providing companies with profit isn't the way to go. No doubt one way they would do it is by paying their workers less and giving them fewer benefits than a city worker would get. Which is a race to the bottom. Screw that.

Who would work? Why work? Why invent? Why produce? Why research? Why do anything but sit around?

Your opinion of humanity is delusional. People are inventive. Producing gives them a sense of pride and worth.

Nah, give me what I want, new car, new motorhome, new home, all the money I want, free healthcare, free food, free electric, free campsites when I travel. Hell, if you can get it why not me? I’ve worked hard all my life. The government owes me tons!

What if you were given all those things. But for a price. That price being that you do whatever part you can in seeing to it that everybody else can receive those things too. (Which wouldn't mean working people to death) Would you sign on for that? Or are you so brainwashed that you think that greed and accumulating as much as you can at any negative cost to society is the best option for society.

Greed goes both ways, you want to exploit people and tell them what they can make.

No. Greed goes one way. The more you have, the more you want. Also, study's have shown that the more poor a person is, the more honest they are likely to be. Another thing is that part of the way people make money in this country is in trying to convince others that they want something that they don't really need. This too is driven by greed. It shouldn't be that way. And in at least the next 50 years, it won't be. Because most of humanity and the rest of life on this planet will be extinct due to human caused global warming. Some say it will be within the next 20 years.

No. Greed goes one way. The more you have, the more you want.

No. You are wrong. In fact, the people who earn the most, are most likely to give it away.

It's the people who are poor, that try and end up miserly and pinching every single penny.

Another thing is that part of the way people make money in this country is in trying to convince others that they want something that they don't really need. This too is driven by greed.

Funny, because I saw millions of dollars spent trying to convince everyone, that we wanted universal government run health care. I saw millions spent by Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton, and numerous others, that we wanted those idiots in office.

Must be all greedy bastards then.

This is dumb argument. That's retarded. I don't know what you did for a living, but my guess is your paycheck was tied to a marketing campaign somewhere. Every wage I earned in my life, was tied to marketing on something.

And in at least the next 50 years, it won't be.

Soviets said the same thing. So did Hugo Chavez in Venezuela. Not convincing me.

Because most of humanity and the rest of life on this planet will be extinct due to human caused global warming. Some say it will be within the next 20 years.

And there you have it. We're back to John Maynard Keynes "in the long run, we're all dead".

View attachment 341630

Look, if the world is going to end anyway, then what difference does it make if you get free education?

Dumb dumb dumb.

You must be high. If the wealthy gave their money away, they wouldn't have it to begin with. But I know what you're getting at. Who they leave their money to after they die. Well for any that might, chances are that many would do the types of things that Andrew Carnegie did. Building Carnegie Hall and other monuments to his vanity. And the reason why he could do so it because he had far more money than he needed. What I call somebody who has far more than they need is a pig.

Next, if you don't have pennys, what is there to pinch. On the other hand, I heard of a wealthy miserly woman. She had millions. But wouldn't pay for an operation that her son needed.

Next, people who didn't want universal health care spent far more. Also, some years ago there were some asshole tea party protesters across the street who were protesting against universal health care. At the end of the line where they had their cars parked, there were two people sitting in the back of their car promoting universal health care. Being so cool, I decided to go over and talk to them. I brought up to one of them how some insurance companies (though probably all) will have workers who's whole job is to dig up bullshit from the past of those they insure and use it as a reason to deny them coverage. Causing those people pain, suffering and death. As it turned out, the person I was talking to worked at an insurance company himself. And that was his job there. No doubt he was protesting for universal health care because he had a guilty conscience.

Also, I had the same sort of thing happen to me once. I got hit by a car in Florida. I was on a motorcycle stopped at a light and was hit from behind. Everybody was amazed that I survived. For the guy that hit me, his insurance dug up some bullshit from his past and denied him coverage. Leaving me fucked.

It might interest you to know that if we had universal health care, from what we would save on such pointless bureaucracy, it alone would pay for around half of what universal health care costs. And as I was saying to someone else, as a percentage of various countries GDP, the U.S. pays more and gets less than what other developed countries pay as a percentage of their GDP. I even remember hearing of some drug company here in the U.S. that made a particular drug that had been around for a long time. They raised the price of it by 100,000%! Need I go on.

If the wealthy gave their money away, they wouldn't have it to begin with.

There are many ways to give away money, that doesn't involve you becoming poor.

That's a dumb comment. Say I own a business, and my business generates $200,000 in profit for me.

I could give away $100,000 a year, every single year, and still be massively wealthy. In fact, not only could I give away $100,000 a year, but I could invest some of the remaining, and increase my net worth year over year, while still being extremely charitable.

Prove to me, you at least have some amount of intelligence at all, and stop saying ridiculously stupid comments. Think before you type, sir. Dumb statement. Very dumb.

What I call somebody who has far more than they need is a pig.

Just remember this.... to everyone in the world... you are the pig. You have far more than you need.

"more than they need" is subjective, and to 99% of this planet, you are the wealthy pig hording everything.

On the other hand, I heard of a wealthy miserly woman. She had millions. But wouldn't pay for an operation that her son needed.

Yes, and that is one example from how many millions on millions of wealthy people in this country?

We all know there are crazy people. Try not to judge everyone, based on the actions of the very few.

Next, people who didn't want universal health care spent far more.

Factually untrue. The most expensive plan at my multinational company of thousands on thousands of employees, was $350/month. That's the high end expensive family plan.

Universal health care is going to cost double our taxes. At the low end, it will cost a 12% increase in taxes, from the lowest tax bracket up.

Let's take a median income of $40,000 a year. 20% in taxes to pay for Universal Health care, would be $8,000 or $666 a month. The high end of the middle class would be around $60,000 a year, and that would cost $12,000 a year, or $1,000 a month. I don't know anyone paying that much for insurance.

I personally have never paid more than $200 a month for insurance anywhere.

Saying Universal Health care will cost less than our current system... is just factually wrong. Ridiculous honestly. Again, when you look at Europe, you don't see anyone anywhere in Europe that is paying less than we are. Not one. They all pay more... much more.

Again, marginal tax rate for someone earning $37,000 in the US is 22%. In the EU, it's 49%. More than double. And they earn less money than we do. They earn less, because of their tax and social systems. So they earn much less, and keep less of the less they earn.

And you think we'll end up better off using their system? You are crazy.

No doubt he was protesting for universal health care because he had a guilty conscience.

No. Insurance stand to make big money working with the government. The more you involve government with insurance companies, the more the insurance companies are going to make.

Free-markets make monopolies hard, because anyone can compete, and then you have to compete on services and prices. Competition makes life hard. You can't charge too much, or the customers leave. You can't save money by cutting services, or the customers leave. You have to constantly be checking to see where you are in the market, constantly checking your customer base to see if they are happy, and there is always a new competitor around the corner.

But with government, it is just like the BMV, and the Post Office, you can treat people like crap, and it doesn't affect you, because your money comes from government.

And generally you are shield by government when things go badly. Look at Franklin Raines. He was caught clearly fudging the numbers at Fannie Mae. Clear corruption, by fabricating profits, to trigger executive bonuses.

What happened to him? Nothing. We the tax payers paid for the entire failure of Fannie Mae, and Franklin Raines, didn't even go to trial for clear fraud, let alone prison.

Trust me, the biggest insurance companies are all completely in favor of Universal Health Care. They know they are going to make billions in profit, while being able to treat their customers like crap, and nothing will happen to them, because they'll have the backing of government.

This is why I've said hundreds of times, the socialists and left-wingers are the biggest pawns of big business there is. All the big companies have you people, wrapped around their figure, dancing to their tune, so they can make billions of dollars while we suffer... and you promote this to your own death.

Why don't you stop speaking crap. I said that as a percentage of various countries GDP, the ones who provide universal health care pay less. That's the end of the story. And here is something to back it up.

View attachment 342199

Nothing you said here, changes the facts I presented.

If you look at the tax rates required to pay for universal health care, you are going to pay more in taxes, than you ever did in premiums.

That's math. Your stats... don't change MATH.

Further, I agree that we do spend more... and we get better care than any of those countries. Every single time that they compare Survival rates between the US, and anywhere else, we have higher survival rates.

Why do you think every single year, Canadians come to the US for care? Because we have better care.

We have people that come here from all over the world. People from Australia, Sweden, Denmark, and Germany, come to the US for health care, because their care system sucks.

It's not because of price.

Americans will go aboard for care.... yes.... to reduce price.

But why are people from Europe routinely coming to the US for care? For price? No, because they have no price.

Why are they coming here? Why would they choose to pay for health care, that they supposedly get for free in Canada, and Europe? Why?

Because they'll die. Why will they die? Because their health care sucks.

Timely Medical | Timely Surgery at Affordable Prices

Recover quickly from surgery with Timely Medical. Enjoy discounts up to 80% and return to your routine within two weeks. Contact us for a free consult.

www.timelymedical.ca

Do you know what this company does in Canada? They charge people... to get care..... outside of Canada. Because their health care sucks.

How could a company like this exist in a country with "free" health care provided by the government?

Because government run care.... SUCKS.

Patients turning to care brokers

Canadians facing long treatment waits using companies to find U.S. care

www.theglobeandmail.com

Robot Check

This Vet in Canada, saved her own life, by doing diagnostic tests on herself, because Canadian health care sucks.

After her experience, she started comparing the difference in how dogs and pets are treated better in Canada, than human beings. Hence the name lucky dog. If she had not been a vet, and had access to medical equipment designed for animals, she likely would be dead today.

Don't sit there and tell me how much cheaper it is, because that makes you the greedy bastard you were talking about before.... trading dollars.... for lives. You don't care how many people die, so long as you save money on insurance premiums? Really?

I can recover from a hospital bill, even a large one. I know because I've done it. But I can't recover from dying to your socialized health care. Save a few bucks, and end up in a grave? Brilliant.

You are hallucinating. Some people do come here from other countries for health care. Big deal. Maybe they were going to come here for some reason anyway and decided to do the doctor thing while they were here. And there are people in Canada who won't come here unless they buy insurance for while they are here. They do so because out health care system sucks. I showed you the statistics. Americans pay a larger portion of their GDP for healthcare than the people of countries who provide free health care. Those are the facts. Like it or lump it. And after you've lumped it, lump it again.

The US exports 3.3 billion medical care to the world, and has consistently had 1.8 billion surplus. That is a fact. People come to the US for medical vacations, the fact you don’t think it is a big deal means nothing, the fact that they don’t come for other things besides medical is a fact you deny and it again makes you wrong. You need to study more.

3.3 billion is chump change. Every year the U.S. pays around 420 billion just on the interest of our national debt. Next, there are a hell of a lot of tourists that come to the U.S. each year. Probably only about 1% of them come here on medical vacations. (If even that)

You keep changing what you say when you are refuted. Nothing is consistent, you are all over the map. Tough to believe anything you post.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

If I had to guess, I would say that our government will probably go for the latter. Which is also helped along by president Chump giving encouragement to the protesters why want to re-open the economy. And there are a lot of people suffering economic hardship. But seeing how there isn't likely to be a second round of stimulus checks, many have no choice but to go back to work. Even if it means risking their lives and spreading the coronavirus even more.

Over 80,000 people have died so far. What is the amount of genocide our country is willing to endure at the altar of capitalism as we know it. For those in power, more than likely any level of slaughter is acceptable to preserve capitalism as it was before the coronavirus.

Where does the money come from????

The same place it comes from now. Pretend land. Our fiat currency is probably over 20 trillion in debt. It doesn't matter if it is 40 trillion. Though before the coronavirus thing hit, the U.S. was paying around 420 billion dollars a year just on the interest of our national debt. Which is basically money flushed down the toilet. And we just burrow more money to pay that. We need to just tell whoever we owe interest to to suck it! Apart from the national debt, we also have around 61 trillion worth of unfunded obligations. And I don't want to split the hair between a debt and an obligation.

We need to just tell whoever we owe interest to to suck it!

But you want to borrow more money for handouts to you?

You're not real bright, are you?

Usury is for suckers and slaves.

Well ok....

But understand that if you eliminate Usury, then you are not going to borrow anymore.

That means if you don't have money for a car, then you simply don't get a car.

And if there isn't money for Social Security, then there is no Social Security.

If you don't have money for education, then you simply don't get education.

If there is no money for Medicare, then you simply don't get Medicare.

I'm somewhat sympathetic to the concept of banning Usury. But you need to understand what that means. No credit cards. If you want to go out to eat, because some friends came into town unexpected, and you don't have money.... you don't go out to eat.

Are you ok with this?

You don't need usury to have any of that. When inflation heats up, the fed increases interests payments. If the economy is doing poorly, the fed nearly eliminates interest payments-usury.

Without Usury, it does not matter what the Fed does.... if you don't have the money to buy something... then you are not going to be able to buy it. No matter what the Fed does.

You don't make any sense.

If you want to buy a house.... and there is no Usury... why would anyone lend you the money to buy a house? They wouldn't.

Doesn't matter what the Fed does. Why would I loan you $100,000 to buy a house, if I can't earn a profit off of loaning you the money? Without Usury, I would get back $100,000 on my $100,000 loan.

Why would I do this? I wouldn't.

If I'm a bank, I'm not going to give you a mortgage, because why would I do something that earns me nothing? Has nothing to do with the Fed. Fed has zero influence on this choice.

I'm simply not going to loan you the money. It would be better for me to invest that $100,000 in stocks. At least with stocks I'll get a return on my investment.

No Usury, means no money for you. If you don't have the cash, you don't get the stuff.

If you are ok with that, so am I. I'm all for banning Usury. But you need to understand... no house unless you have cash. No car unless you have cash. Doesn't matter what the Fed does. No one is going to loan you money, if they can't make a profit.

Face it. Capitalism is a farce. Everything should be provided by the government. Taking care of the people is their job. (At least, it should be) Not kissing hands and shaking babies. Housing, health care, education and transportation should be free. Free Free FREEEEEEEEEE!!!! Healthcare should apply equally to anybody. But as far as everything else goes, it would have to depend on your station in life. Those who are doctors or scientists for example should have better housing and transportation than a laborer. In return, people give their labor to support society.

In my town they have a plan to make the bridges toll bridges. In other words, privatize them. But those people are in it to make a profit. If you want something done as cheaply as possible, providing companies with profit isn't the way to go. No doubt one way they would do it is by paying their workers less and giving them fewer benefits than a city worker would get. Which is a race to the bottom. Screw that.

Who would work? Why work? Why invent? Why produce? Why research? Why do anything but sit around?

Your opinion of humanity is delusional. People are inventive. Producing gives them a sense of pride and worth.

Nah, give me what I want, new car, new motorhome, new home, all the money I want, free healthcare, free food, free electric, free campsites when I travel. Hell, if you can get it why not me? I’ve worked hard all my life. The government owes me tons!

What if you were given all those things. But for a price. That price being that you do whatever part you can in seeing to it that everybody else can receive those things too. (Which wouldn't mean working people to death) Would you sign on for that? Or are you so brainwashed that you think that greed and accumulating as much as you can at any negative cost to society is the best option for society.

Greed goes both ways, you want to exploit people and tell them what they can make.

No. Greed goes one way. The more you have, the more you want. Also, study's have shown that the more poor a person is, the more honest they are likely to be. Another thing is that part of the way people make money in this country is in trying to convince others that they want something that they don't really need. This too is driven by greed. It shouldn't be that way. And in at least the next 50 years, it won't be. Because most of humanity and the rest of life on this planet will be extinct due to human caused global warming. Some say it will be within the next 20 years.

No. Greed goes one way. The more you have, the more you want.

No. You are wrong. In fact, the people who earn the most, are most likely to give it away.

It's the people who are poor, that try and end up miserly and pinching every single penny.

Another thing is that part of the way people make money in this country is in trying to convince others that they want something that they don't really need. This too is driven by greed.

Funny, because I saw millions of dollars spent trying to convince everyone, that we wanted universal government run health care. I saw millions spent by Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton, and numerous others, that we wanted those idiots in office.

Must be all greedy bastards then.

This is dumb argument. That's retarded. I don't know what you did for a living, but my guess is your paycheck was tied to a marketing campaign somewhere. Every wage I earned in my life, was tied to marketing on something.

And in at least the next 50 years, it won't be.

Soviets said the same thing. So did Hugo Chavez in Venezuela. Not convincing me.

Because most of humanity and the rest of life on this planet will be extinct due to human caused global warming. Some say it will be within the next 20 years.

And there you have it. We're back to John Maynard Keynes "in the long run, we're all dead".

View attachment 341630

Look, if the world is going to end anyway, then what difference does it make if you get free education?

Dumb dumb dumb.

You must be high. If the wealthy gave their money away, they wouldn't have it to begin with. But I know what you're getting at. Who they leave their money to after they die. Well for any that might, chances are that many would do the types of things that Andrew Carnegie did. Building Carnegie Hall and other monuments to his vanity. And the reason why he could do so it because he had far more money than he needed. What I call somebody who has far more than they need is a pig.

Next, if you don't have pennys, what is there to pinch. On the other hand, I heard of a wealthy miserly woman. She had millions. But wouldn't pay for an operation that her son needed.

Next, people who didn't want universal health care spent far more. Also, some years ago there were some asshole tea party protesters across the street who were protesting against universal health care. At the end of the line where they had their cars parked, there were two people sitting in the back of their car promoting universal health care. Being so cool, I decided to go over and talk to them. I brought up to one of them how some insurance companies (though probably all) will have workers who's whole job is to dig up bullshit from the past of those they insure and use it as a reason to deny them coverage. Causing those people pain, suffering and death. As it turned out, the person I was talking to worked at an insurance company himself. And that was his job there. No doubt he was protesting for universal health care because he had a guilty conscience.

Also, I had the same sort of thing happen to me once. I got hit by a car in Florida. I was on a motorcycle stopped at a light and was hit from behind. Everybody was amazed that I survived. For the guy that hit me, his insurance dug up some bullshit from his past and denied him coverage. Leaving me fucked.

It might interest you to know that if we had universal health care, from what we would save on such pointless bureaucracy, it alone would pay for around half of what universal health care costs. And as I was saying to someone else, as a percentage of various countries GDP, the U.S. pays more and gets less than what other developed countries pay as a percentage of their GDP. I even remember hearing of some drug company here in the U.S. that made a particular drug that had been around for a long time. They raised the price of it by 100,000%! Need I go on.

If the wealthy gave their money away, they wouldn't have it to begin with.

There are many ways to give away money, that doesn't involve you becoming poor.

That's a dumb comment. Say I own a business, and my business generates $200,000 in profit for me.

I could give away $100,000 a year, every single year, and still be massively wealthy. In fact, not only could I give away $100,000 a year, but I could invest some of the remaining, and increase my net worth year over year, while still being extremely charitable.

Prove to me, you at least have some amount of intelligence at all, and stop saying ridiculously stupid comments. Think before you type, sir. Dumb statement. Very dumb.

What I call somebody who has far more than they need is a pig.

Just remember this.... to everyone in the world... you are the pig. You have far more than you need.

"more than they need" is subjective, and to 99% of this planet, you are the wealthy pig hording everything.

On the other hand, I heard of a wealthy miserly woman. She had millions. But wouldn't pay for an operation that her son needed.

Yes, and that is one example from how many millions on millions of wealthy people in this country?

We all know there are crazy people. Try not to judge everyone, based on the actions of the very few.

Next, people who didn't want universal health care spent far more.

Factually untrue. The most expensive plan at my multinational company of thousands on thousands of employees, was $350/month. That's the high end expensive family plan.

Universal health care is going to cost double our taxes. At the low end, it will cost a 12% increase in taxes, from the lowest tax bracket up.

Let's take a median income of $40,000 a year. 20% in taxes to pay for Universal Health care, would be $8,000 or $666 a month. The high end of the middle class would be around $60,000 a year, and that would cost $12,000 a year, or $1,000 a month. I don't know anyone paying that much for insurance.

I personally have never paid more than $200 a month for insurance anywhere.

Saying Universal Health care will cost less than our current system... is just factually wrong. Ridiculous honestly. Again, when you look at Europe, you don't see anyone anywhere in Europe that is paying less than we are. Not one. They all pay more... much more.

Again, marginal tax rate for someone earning $37,000 in the US is 22%. In the EU, it's 49%. More than double. And they earn less money than we do. They earn less, because of their tax and social systems. So they earn much less, and keep less of the less they earn.

And you think we'll end up better off using their system? You are crazy.

No doubt he was protesting for universal health care because he had a guilty conscience.

No. Insurance stand to make big money working with the government. The more you involve government with insurance companies, the more the insurance companies are going to make.

Free-markets make monopolies hard, because anyone can compete, and then you have to compete on services and prices. Competition makes life hard. You can't charge too much, or the customers leave. You can't save money by cutting services, or the customers leave. You have to constantly be checking to see where you are in the market, constantly checking your customer base to see if they are happy, and there is always a new competitor around the corner.

But with government, it is just like the BMV, and the Post Office, you can treat people like crap, and it doesn't affect you, because your money comes from government.

And generally you are shield by government when things go badly. Look at Franklin Raines. He was caught clearly fudging the numbers at Fannie Mae. Clear corruption, by fabricating profits, to trigger executive bonuses.

What happened to him? Nothing. We the tax payers paid for the entire failure of Fannie Mae, and Franklin Raines, didn't even go to trial for clear fraud, let alone prison.

Trust me, the biggest insurance companies are all completely in favor of Universal Health Care. They know they are going to make billions in profit, while being able to treat their customers like crap, and nothing will happen to them, because they'll have the backing of government.

This is why I've said hundreds of times, the socialists and left-wingers are the biggest pawns of big business there is. All the big companies have you people, wrapped around their figure, dancing to their tune, so they can make billions of dollars while we suffer... and you promote this to your own death.

Why don't you stop speaking crap. I said that as a percentage of various countries GDP, the ones who provide universal health care pay less. That's the end of the story. And here is something to back it up.

View attachment 342199

Nothing you said here, changes the facts I presented.

If you look at the tax rates required to pay for universal health care, you are going to pay more in taxes, than you ever did in premiums.

That's math. Your stats... don't change MATH.

Further, I agree that we do spend more... and we get better care than any of those countries. Every single time that they compare Survival rates between the US, and anywhere else, we have higher survival rates.

Why do you think every single year, Canadians come to the US for care? Because we have better care.

We have people that come here from all over the world. People from Australia, Sweden, Denmark, and Germany, come to the US for health care, because their care system sucks.

It's not because of price.

Americans will go aboard for care.... yes.... to reduce price.

But why are people from Europe routinely coming to the US for care? For price? No, because they have no price.

Why are they coming here? Why would they choose to pay for health care, that they supposedly get for free in Canada, and Europe? Why?

Because they'll die. Why will they die? Because their health care sucks.

Timely Medical | Timely Surgery at Affordable Prices

Recover quickly from surgery with Timely Medical. Enjoy discounts up to 80% and return to your routine within two weeks. Contact us for a free consult.

www.timelymedical.ca

Do you know what this company does in Canada? They charge people... to get care..... outside of Canada. Because their health care sucks.

How could a company like this exist in a country with "free" health care provided by the government?

Because government run care.... SUCKS.

Patients turning to care brokers

Canadians facing long treatment waits using companies to find U.S. care

www.theglobeandmail.com

Robot Check

This Vet in Canada, saved her own life, by doing diagnostic tests on herself, because Canadian health care sucks.

After her experience, she started comparing the difference in how dogs and pets are treated better in Canada, than human beings. Hence the name lucky dog. If she had not been a vet, and had access to medical equipment designed for animals, she likely would be dead today.

Don't sit there and tell me how much cheaper it is, because that makes you the greedy bastard you were talking about before.... trading dollars.... for lives. You don't care how many people die, so long as you save money on insurance premiums? Really?

I can recover from a hospital bill, even a large one. I know because I've done it. But I can't recover from dying to your socialized health care. Save a few bucks, and end up in a grave? Brilliant.

You are hallucinating. Some people do come here from other countries for health care. Big deal. Maybe they were going to come here for some reason anyway and decided to do the doctor thing while they were here. And there are people in Canada who won't come here unless they buy insurance for while they are here. They do so because out health care system sucks. I showed you the statistics. Americans pay a larger portion of their GDP for healthcare than the people of countries who provide free health care. Those are the facts. Like it or lump it. And after you've lumped it, lump it again.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2016-08-03/canadians-increasingly-come-to-us-for-health-care

Canadians are not coming here for vacation, and just passing by a hospital. They are coming specifically for health care. Routinely.

Americans pay a larger portion of their GDP for healthcare than

Irrelevant. You pay more for a Lexus RX than you do for a Chevrolet Sonic. Does that mean the Lexus is obviously terrible, and the Sonic is the best car ever built?

Of course not. That would be stupid. You are assuming that the quality of the care provided in Canada, and around the world, is the same as it is here.

It is not.

Countries around the world have far fewer treatments than here in the US.

Hospital waiting times at worst-ever level

Record numbers in England are on hospital waiting lists, while A&E delays highest since target introduced.

www.bbc.com

Massive wait times.

Medical Tourism

www.europeanmedicaltourist.com

Why does medical tourism within Europe even exist? They are paying half their income in taxes, and they are supposed to get 'free' health care. Why is medical tourism for Europeans, growing dramatically? Why are people willing to go to Pay-for-Service Capitalist based profit-driven hospitals in Europe, when they supposedly get free health care, from that 50% tax rate they pay?

From the OECD data:

Let’s look at interventional outcomes. According to the CDC, stroke is the cause of more than 130,000 deaths annually in the United States. However, the US has significantly lower rates of 30-day stroke-induced mortality than every other OECD country, aside from Japan and Korea. OECD data suggest that the age- and sex-adjusted mortality rates within Europe would translate to tens of thousands of additional deaths in the US.

If American Healthcare Kills, European Healthcare Kills More | Mahdi Barakat

Now flip the question: How many people die in other countries due to deficiencies in their healthcare systems? And how many people would die in the US if we had treatment outcomes similar to those in other countries?

fee.org

Death rate 'much higher' in English than US hospitals

"NHS death rate is one of worst in the West," says the Daily Mail, while The Times front page warns of "Alarm over 'high' death rate in English hospitals". This story was covered by most news outlets, including The Daily Telegraph, which ...

www.nhs.uk

This story was covered by most UK news outlets, including The Daily Telegraph, which reports that NHS patients are 45% more likely to die than patients in the US. The Telegraph says that data "over more than 10 years found NHS mortality rates were among the worst of those in seven developed countries".

But hey, at least those 45% that died, that would not have in the US... at least they didn't have an expensive medical bill.

Yes, Americans pay more for health care.

Because it's better.

If we had free healthcare, do you know what would change? NOTHING! The only thing that would change is who pays the bill. I also said that ever country with free health care goes about things a little differently. You said that in some aspects, Japan and South Korea do well. Well when we set up our universal health care system, all we have to do is what they're doing.

So you want the federal government coming out every year to measure your waist, and give you X amount of time to lose weight, and if you fail the second time, be shipped off to some fat farm?

Sorry, we don't want that here.

Is that what they do in Japan and South Korea? I've never heard of that one. So excuse me if I don't believe it.

Japan Enforces Legal Limit On Waistlines

Japan Enforces Legal Limit On Waistlines

www.huffpost.com

Summoned by the city of Amagasaki one recent morning, Minoru Nogiri, 45, a flower shop owner, found himself lining up to have his waistline measured. With no visible paunch, he seemed to run little risk of being classified as overweight, or metabo, the preferred word in Japan these days.

But because the new state-prescribed limit for male waistlines is a strict 33.5 inches, he had anxiously measured himself at home a couple of days earlier. “I’m on the border,” he said.

Japan, Seeking Trim Waists, Measures Millions (Published 2008)

A country not known for obesity has undertaken an ambitious campaign to slim down its citizenry.

www.nytimes.com

Man, how do you not know this stuff? You claim to be so smart, and know everything about universal health care.

They started this in 2008. That 12 years ago, and you don't know?

I guess you are not as smart as you claim, huh?

He claims to be smart, but when somebody posts evidence of their claim, he refuses to read it. I don't know any "smart person" that doesn't investigate counter claims. I also don't know any smart person that openly admits to being poor and incapable of getting a good paying job being helpless to improve their situation. Smart and educated people do all this and more, without the help of the federal government.

 

[Andylusion]

If I had to guess, I would say that our government will probably go for the latter. Which is also helped along by president Chump giving encouragement to the protesters why want to re-open the economy. And there are a lot of people suffering economic hardship. But seeing how there isn't likely to be a second round of stimulus checks, many have no choice but to go back to work. Even if it means risking their lives and spreading the coronavirus even more.

Over 80,000 people have died so far. What is the amount of genocide our country is willing to endure at the altar of capitalism as we know it. For those in power, more than likely any level of slaughter is acceptable to preserve capitalism as it was before the coronavirus.

Where does the money come from????

The same place it comes from now. Pretend land. Our fiat currency is probably over 20 trillion in debt. It doesn't matter if it is 40 trillion. Though before the coronavirus thing hit, the U.S. was paying around 420 billion dollars a year just on the interest of our national debt. Which is basically money flushed down the toilet. And we just burrow more money to pay that. We need to just tell whoever we owe interest to to suck it! Apart from the national debt, we also have around 61 trillion worth of unfunded obligations. And I don't want to split the hair between a debt and an obligation.

We need to just tell whoever we owe interest to to suck it!

But you want to borrow more money for handouts to you?

You're not real bright, are you?

Usury is for suckers and slaves.

Well ok....

But understand that if you eliminate Usury, then you are not going to borrow anymore.

That means if you don't have money for a car, then you simply don't get a car.

And if there isn't money for Social Security, then there is no Social Security.

If you don't have money for education, then you simply don't get education.

If there is no money for Medicare, then you simply don't get Medicare.

I'm somewhat sympathetic to the concept of banning Usury. But you need to understand what that means. No credit cards. If you want to go out to eat, because some friends came into town unexpected, and you don't have money.... you don't go out to eat.

Are you ok with this?

You don't need usury to have any of that. When inflation heats up, the fed increases interests payments. If the economy is doing poorly, the fed nearly eliminates interest payments-usury.

Without Usury, it does not matter what the Fed does.... if you don't have the money to buy something... then you are not going to be able to buy it. No matter what the Fed does.

You don't make any sense.

If you want to buy a house.... and there is no Usury... why would anyone lend you the money to buy a house? They wouldn't.

Doesn't matter what the Fed does. Why would I loan you $100,000 to buy a house, if I can't earn a profit off of loaning you the money? Without Usury, I would get back $100,000 on my $100,000 loan.

Why would I do this? I wouldn't.

If I'm a bank, I'm not going to give you a mortgage, because why would I do something that earns me nothing? Has nothing to do with the Fed. Fed has zero influence on this choice.

I'm simply not going to loan you the money. It would be better for me to invest that $100,000 in stocks. At least with stocks I'll get a return on my investment.

No Usury, means no money for you. If you don't have the cash, you don't get the stuff.

If you are ok with that, so am I. I'm all for banning Usury. But you need to understand... no house unless you have cash. No car unless you have cash. Doesn't matter what the Fed does. No one is going to loan you money, if they can't make a profit.

Face it. Capitalism is a farce. Everything should be provided by the government. Taking care of the people is their job. (At least, it should be) Not kissing hands and shaking babies. Housing, health care, education and transportation should be free. Free Free FREEEEEEEEEE!!!! Healthcare should apply equally to anybody. But as far as everything else goes, it would have to depend on your station in life. Those who are doctors or scientists for example should have better housing and transportation than a laborer. In return, people give their labor to support society.

In my town they have a plan to make the bridges toll bridges. In other words, privatize them. But those people are in it to make a profit. If you want something done as cheaply as possible, providing companies with profit isn't the way to go. No doubt one way they would do it is by paying their workers less and giving them fewer benefits than a city worker would get. Which is a race to the bottom. Screw that.

Who would work? Why work? Why invent? Why produce? Why research? Why do anything but sit around?

Your opinion of humanity is delusional. People are inventive. Producing gives them a sense of pride and worth.

Nah, give me what I want, new car, new motorhome, new home, all the money I want, free healthcare, free food, free electric, free campsites when I travel. Hell, if you can get it why not me? I’ve worked hard all my life. The government owes me tons!

What if you were given all those things. But for a price. That price being that you do whatever part you can in seeing to it that everybody else can receive those things too. (Which wouldn't mean working people to death) Would you sign on for that? Or are you so brainwashed that you think that greed and accumulating as much as you can at any negative cost to society is the best option for society.

Greed goes both ways, you want to exploit people and tell them what they can make.

No. Greed goes one way. The more you have, the more you want. Also, study's have shown that the more poor a person is, the more honest they are likely to be. Another thing is that part of the way people make money in this country is in trying to convince others that they want something that they don't really need. This too is driven by greed. It shouldn't be that way. And in at least the next 50 years, it won't be. Because most of humanity and the rest of life on this planet will be extinct due to human caused global warming. Some say it will be within the next 20 years.

No. Greed goes one way. The more you have, the more you want.

No. You are wrong. In fact, the people who earn the most, are most likely to give it away.

It's the people who are poor, that try and end up miserly and pinching every single penny.

Another thing is that part of the way people make money in this country is in trying to convince others that they want something that they don't really need. This too is driven by greed.

Funny, because I saw millions of dollars spent trying to convince everyone, that we wanted universal government run health care. I saw millions spent by Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton, and numerous others, that we wanted those idiots in office.

Must be all greedy bastards then.

This is dumb argument. That's retarded. I don't know what you did for a living, but my guess is your paycheck was tied to a marketing campaign somewhere. Every wage I earned in my life, was tied to marketing on something.

And in at least the next 50 years, it won't be.

Soviets said the same thing. So did Hugo Chavez in Venezuela. Not convincing me.

Because most of humanity and the rest of life on this planet will be extinct due to human caused global warming. Some say it will be within the next 20 years.

And there you have it. We're back to John Maynard Keynes "in the long run, we're all dead".

View attachment 341630

Look, if the world is going to end anyway, then what difference does it make if you get free education?

Dumb dumb dumb.

You must be high. If the wealthy gave their money away, they wouldn't have it to begin with. But I know what you're getting at. Who they leave their money to after they die. Well for any that might, chances are that many would do the types of things that Andrew Carnegie did. Building Carnegie Hall and other monuments to his vanity. And the reason why he could do so it because he had far more money than he needed. What I call somebody who has far more than they need is a pig.

Next, if you don't have pennys, what is there to pinch. On the other hand, I heard of a wealthy miserly woman. She had millions. But wouldn't pay for an operation that her son needed.

Next, people who didn't want universal health care spent far more. Also, some years ago there were some asshole tea party protesters across the street who were protesting against universal health care. At the end of the line where they had their cars parked, there were two people sitting in the back of their car promoting universal health care. Being so cool, I decided to go over and talk to them. I brought up to one of them how some insurance companies (though probably all) will have workers who's whole job is to dig up bullshit from the past of those they insure and use it as a reason to deny them coverage. Causing those people pain, suffering and death. As it turned out, the person I was talking to worked at an insurance company himself. And that was his job there. No doubt he was protesting for universal health care because he had a guilty conscience.

Also, I had the same sort of thing happen to me once. I got hit by a car in Florida. I was on a motorcycle stopped at a light and was hit from behind. Everybody was amazed that I survived. For the guy that hit me, his insurance dug up some bullshit from his past and denied him coverage. Leaving me fucked.

It might interest you to know that if we had universal health care, from what we would save on such pointless bureaucracy, it alone would pay for around half of what universal health care costs. And as I was saying to someone else, as a percentage of various countries GDP, the U.S. pays more and gets less than what other developed countries pay as a percentage of their GDP. I even remember hearing of some drug company here in the U.S. that made a particular drug that had been around for a long time. They raised the price of it by 100,000%! Need I go on.

If the wealthy gave their money away, they wouldn't have it to begin with.

There are many ways to give away money, that doesn't involve you becoming poor.

That's a dumb comment. Say I own a business, and my business generates $200,000 in profit for me.

I could give away $100,000 a year, every single year, and still be massively wealthy. In fact, not only could I give away $100,000 a year, but I could invest some of the remaining, and increase my net worth year over year, while still being extremely charitable.

Prove to me, you at least have some amount of intelligence at all, and stop saying ridiculously stupid comments. Think before you type, sir. Dumb statement. Very dumb.

What I call somebody who has far more than they need is a pig.

Just remember this.... to everyone in the world... you are the pig. You have far more than you need.

"more than they need" is subjective, and to 99% of this planet, you are the wealthy pig hording everything.

On the other hand, I heard of a wealthy miserly woman. She had millions. But wouldn't pay for an operation that her son needed.

Yes, and that is one example from how many millions on millions of wealthy people in this country?

We all know there are crazy people. Try not to judge everyone, based on the actions of the very few.

Next, people who didn't want universal health care spent far more.

Factually untrue. The most expensive plan at my multinational company of thousands on thousands of employees, was $350/month. That's the high end expensive family plan.

Universal health care is going to cost double our taxes. At the low end, it will cost a 12% increase in taxes, from the lowest tax bracket up.

Let's take a median income of $40,000 a year. 20% in taxes to pay for Universal Health care, would be $8,000 or $666 a month. The high end of the middle class would be around $60,000 a year, and that would cost $12,000 a year, or $1,000 a month. I don't know anyone paying that much for insurance.

I personally have never paid more than $200 a month for insurance anywhere.

Saying Universal Health care will cost less than our current system... is just factually wrong. Ridiculous honestly. Again, when you look at Europe, you don't see anyone anywhere in Europe that is paying less than we are. Not one. They all pay more... much more.

Again, marginal tax rate for someone earning $37,000 in the US is 22%. In the EU, it's 49%. More than double. And they earn less money than we do. They earn less, because of their tax and social systems. So they earn much less, and keep less of the less they earn.

And you think we'll end up better off using their system? You are crazy.

No doubt he was protesting for universal health care because he had a guilty conscience.

No. Insurance stand to make big money working with the government. The more you involve government with insurance companies, the more the insurance companies are going to make.

Free-markets make monopolies hard, because anyone can compete, and then you have to compete on services and prices. Competition makes life hard. You can't charge too much, or the customers leave. You can't save money by cutting services, or the customers leave. You have to constantly be checking to see where you are in the market, constantly checking your customer base to see if they are happy, and there is always a new competitor around the corner.

But with government, it is just like the BMV, and the Post Office, you can treat people like crap, and it doesn't affect you, because your money comes from government.

And generally you are shield by government when things go badly. Look at Franklin Raines. He was caught clearly fudging the numbers at Fannie Mae. Clear corruption, by fabricating profits, to trigger executive bonuses.

What happened to him? Nothing. We the tax payers paid for the entire failure of Fannie Mae, and Franklin Raines, didn't even go to trial for clear fraud, let alone prison.

Trust me, the biggest insurance companies are all completely in favor of Universal Health Care. They know they are going to make billions in profit, while being able to treat their customers like crap, and nothing will happen to them, because they'll have the backing of government.

This is why I've said hundreds of times, the socialists and left-wingers are the biggest pawns of big business there is. All the big companies have you people, wrapped around their figure, dancing to their tune, so they can make billions of dollars while we suffer... and you promote this to your own death.

Why don't you stop speaking crap. I said that as a percentage of various countries GDP, the ones who provide universal health care pay less. That's the end of the story. And here is something to back it up.

View attachment 342199

Nothing you said here, changes the facts I presented.

If you look at the tax rates required to pay for universal health care, you are going to pay more in taxes, than you ever did in premiums.

That's math. Your stats... don't change MATH.

Further, I agree that we do spend more... and we get better care than any of those countries. Every single time that they compare Survival rates between the US, and anywhere else, we have higher survival rates.

Why do you think every single year, Canadians come to the US for care? Because we have better care.

We have people that come here from all over the world. People from Australia, Sweden, Denmark, and Germany, come to the US for health care, because their care system sucks.

It's not because of price.

Americans will go aboard for care.... yes.... to reduce price.

But why are people from Europe routinely coming to the US for care? For price? No, because they have no price.

Why are they coming here? Why would they choose to pay for health care, that they supposedly get for free in Canada, and Europe? Why?

Because they'll die. Why will they die? Because their health care sucks.

Timely Medical | Timely Surgery at Affordable Prices

Recover quickly from surgery with Timely Medical. Enjoy discounts up to 80% and return to your routine within two weeks. Contact us for a free consult.

www.timelymedical.ca

Do you know what this company does in Canada? They charge people... to get care..... outside of Canada. Because their health care sucks.

How could a company like this exist in a country with "free" health care provided by the government?

Because government run care.... SUCKS.

Patients turning to care brokers

Canadians facing long treatment waits using companies to find U.S. care

www.theglobeandmail.com

Robot Check

This Vet in Canada, saved her own life, by doing diagnostic tests on herself, because Canadian health care sucks.

After her experience, she started comparing the difference in how dogs and pets are treated better in Canada, than human beings. Hence the name lucky dog. If she had not been a vet, and had access to medical equipment designed for animals, she likely would be dead today.

Don't sit there and tell me how much cheaper it is, because that makes you the greedy bastard you were talking about before.... trading dollars.... for lives. You don't care how many people die, so long as you save money on insurance premiums? Really?

I can recover from a hospital bill, even a large one. I know because I've done it. But I can't recover from dying to your socialized health care. Save a few bucks, and end up in a grave? Brilliant.

You are hallucinating. Some people do come here from other countries for health care. Big deal. Maybe they were going to come here for some reason anyway and decided to do the doctor thing while they were here. And there are people in Canada who won't come here unless they buy insurance for while they are here. They do so because out health care system sucks. I showed you the statistics. Americans pay a larger portion of their GDP for healthcare than the people of countries who provide free health care. Those are the facts. Like it or lump it. And after you've lumped it, lump it again.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2016-08-03/canadians-increasingly-come-to-us-for-health-care

Canadians are not coming here for vacation, and just passing by a hospital. They are coming specifically for health care. Routinely.

Americans pay a larger portion of their GDP for healthcare than

Irrelevant. You pay more for a Lexus RX than you do for a Chevrolet Sonic. Does that mean the Lexus is obviously terrible, and the Sonic is the best car ever built?

Of course not. That would be stupid. You are assuming that the quality of the care provided in Canada, and around the world, is the same as it is here.

It is not.

Countries around the world have far fewer treatments than here in the US.

Hospital waiting times at worst-ever level

Record numbers in England are on hospital waiting lists, while A&E delays highest since target introduced.

www.bbc.com

Massive wait times.

Medical Tourism

www.europeanmedicaltourist.com

Why does medical tourism within Europe even exist? They are paying half their income in taxes, and they are supposed to get 'free' health care. Why is medical tourism for Europeans, growing dramatically? Why are people willing to go to Pay-for-Service Capitalist based profit-driven hospitals in Europe, when they supposedly get free health care, from that 50% tax rate they pay?

From the OECD data:

Let’s look at interventional outcomes. According to the CDC, stroke is the cause of more than 130,000 deaths annually in the United States. However, the US has significantly lower rates of 30-day stroke-induced mortality than every other OECD country, aside from Japan and Korea. OECD data suggest that the age- and sex-adjusted mortality rates within Europe would translate to tens of thousands of additional deaths in the US.

If American Healthcare Kills, European Healthcare Kills More | Mahdi Barakat

Now flip the question: How many people die in other countries due to deficiencies in their healthcare systems? And how many people would die in the US if we had treatment outcomes similar to those in other countries?

fee.org

Death rate 'much higher' in English than US hospitals

"NHS death rate is one of worst in the West," says the Daily Mail, while The Times front page warns of "Alarm over 'high' death rate in English hospitals". This story was covered by most news outlets, including The Daily Telegraph, which ...

www.nhs.uk

This story was covered by most UK news outlets, including The Daily Telegraph, which reports that NHS patients are 45% more likely to die than patients in the US. The Telegraph says that data "over more than 10 years found NHS mortality rates were among the worst of those in seven developed countries".

But hey, at least those 45% that died, that would not have in the US... at least they didn't have an expensive medical bill.

Yes, Americans pay more for health care.

Because it's better.

If we had free healthcare, do you know what would change? NOTHING! The only thing that would change is who pays the bill. I also said that ever country with free health care goes about things a little differently. You said that in some aspects, Japan and South Korea do well. Well when we set up our universal health care system, all we have to do is what they're doing.

So you want the federal government coming out every year to measure your waist, and give you X amount of time to lose weight, and if you fail the second time, be shipped off to some fat farm?

Sorry, we don't want that here.

Is that what they do in Japan and South Korea? I've never heard of that one. So excuse me if I don't believe it.

Japan Enforces Legal Limit On Waistlines

Japan Enforces Legal Limit On Waistlines

www.huffpost.com

Summoned by the city of Amagasaki one recent morning, Minoru Nogiri, 45, a flower shop owner, found himself lining up to have his waistline measured. With no visible paunch, he seemed to run little risk of being classified as overweight, or metabo, the preferred word in Japan these days.

But because the new state-prescribed limit for male waistlines is a strict 33.5 inches, he had anxiously measured himself at home a couple of days earlier. “I’m on the border,” he said.

Japan, Seeking Trim Waists, Measures Millions (Published 2008)

A country not known for obesity has undertaken an ambitious campaign to slim down its citizenry.

www.nytimes.com

Man, how do you not know this stuff? You claim to be so smart, and know everything about universal health care.

They started this in 2008. That 12 years ago, and you don't know?

I guess you are not as smart as you claim, huh?

He claims to be smart, but when somebody posts evidence of their claim, he refuses to read it. I don't know any "smart person" that doesn't investigate counter claims. I also don't know any smart person that openly admits to being poor and incapable of getting a good paying job being helpless to improve their situation. Smart and educated people do all this and more, without the help of the federal government.

Yeah, this guy gets more crazy as time goes on. He talked about Auschwitz a few posts back, like it was a luxury day spa for workers. Claims no one was killed, or gassed. Like there isn't 15,000 pounds of human hair cut from men, women and children, sold to company friends that funded the Nazi government, that he supports so well.

Hair still on display at Auschwitz.

This guy is one of the dumbest nut jobs I've talk to in awhile. I was actually thinking a few weeks back, that it has been awhile since I encountered a true insane asylum reject on the forum.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

If I had to guess, I would say that our government will probably go for the latter. Which is also helped along by president Chump giving encouragement to the protesters why want to re-open the economy. And there are a lot of people suffering economic hardship. But seeing how there isn't likely to be a second round of stimulus checks, many have no choice but to go back to work. Even if it means risking their lives and spreading the coronavirus even more.

Over 80,000 people have died so far. What is the amount of genocide our country is willing to endure at the altar of capitalism as we know it. For those in power, more than likely any level of slaughter is acceptable to preserve capitalism as it was before the coronavirus.

Where does the money come from????

The same place it comes from now. Pretend land. Our fiat currency is probably over 20 trillion in debt. It doesn't matter if it is 40 trillion. Though before the coronavirus thing hit, the U.S. was paying around 420 billion dollars a year just on the interest of our national debt. Which is basically money flushed down the toilet. And we just burrow more money to pay that. We need to just tell whoever we owe interest to to suck it! Apart from the national debt, we also have around 61 trillion worth of unfunded obligations. And I don't want to split the hair between a debt and an obligation.

We need to just tell whoever we owe interest to to suck it!

But you want to borrow more money for handouts to you?

You're not real bright, are you?

Usury is for suckers and slaves.

Well ok....

But understand that if you eliminate Usury, then you are not going to borrow anymore.

That means if you don't have money for a car, then you simply don't get a car.

And if there isn't money for Social Security, then there is no Social Security.

If you don't have money for education, then you simply don't get education.

If there is no money for Medicare, then you simply don't get Medicare.

I'm somewhat sympathetic to the concept of banning Usury. But you need to understand what that means. No credit cards. If you want to go out to eat, because some friends came into town unexpected, and you don't have money.... you don't go out to eat.

Are you ok with this?

You don't need usury to have any of that. When inflation heats up, the fed increases interests payments. If the economy is doing poorly, the fed nearly eliminates interest payments-usury.

Without Usury, it does not matter what the Fed does.... if you don't have the money to buy something... then you are not going to be able to buy it. No matter what the Fed does.

You don't make any sense.

If you want to buy a house.... and there is no Usury... why would anyone lend you the money to buy a house? They wouldn't.

Doesn't matter what the Fed does. Why would I loan you $100,000 to buy a house, if I can't earn a profit off of loaning you the money? Without Usury, I would get back $100,000 on my $100,000 loan.

Why would I do this? I wouldn't.

If I'm a bank, I'm not going to give you a mortgage, because why would I do something that earns me nothing? Has nothing to do with the Fed. Fed has zero influence on this choice.

I'm simply not going to loan you the money. It would be better for me to invest that $100,000 in stocks. At least with stocks I'll get a return on my investment.

No Usury, means no money for you. If you don't have the cash, you don't get the stuff.

If you are ok with that, so am I. I'm all for banning Usury. But you need to understand... no house unless you have cash. No car unless you have cash. Doesn't matter what the Fed does. No one is going to loan you money, if they can't make a profit.

Face it. Capitalism is a farce. Everything should be provided by the government. Taking care of the people is their job. (At least, it should be) Not kissing hands and shaking babies. Housing, health care, education and transportation should be free. Free Free FREEEEEEEEEE!!!! Healthcare should apply equally to anybody. But as far as everything else goes, it would have to depend on your station in life. Those who are doctors or scientists for example should have better housing and transportation than a laborer. In return, people give their labor to support society.

In my town they have a plan to make the bridges toll bridges. In other words, privatize them. But those people are in it to make a profit. If you want something done as cheaply as possible, providing companies with profit isn't the way to go. No doubt one way they would do it is by paying their workers less and giving them fewer benefits than a city worker would get. Which is a race to the bottom. Screw that.

Who would work? Why work? Why invent? Why produce? Why research? Why do anything but sit around?

Your opinion of humanity is delusional. People are inventive. Producing gives them a sense of pride and worth.

Nah, give me what I want, new car, new motorhome, new home, all the money I want, free healthcare, free food, free electric, free campsites when I travel. Hell, if you can get it why not me? I’ve worked hard all my life. The government owes me tons!

What if you were given all those things. But for a price. That price being that you do whatever part you can in seeing to it that everybody else can receive those things too. (Which wouldn't mean working people to death) Would you sign on for that? Or are you so brainwashed that you think that greed and accumulating as much as you can at any negative cost to society is the best option for society.

Greed goes both ways, you want to exploit people and tell them what they can make.

No. Greed goes one way. The more you have, the more you want. Also, study's have shown that the more poor a person is, the more honest they are likely to be. Another thing is that part of the way people make money in this country is in trying to convince others that they want something that they don't really need. This too is driven by greed. It shouldn't be that way. And in at least the next 50 years, it won't be. Because most of humanity and the rest of life on this planet will be extinct due to human caused global warming. Some say it will be within the next 20 years.

No. Greed goes one way. The more you have, the more you want.

No. You are wrong. In fact, the people who earn the most, are most likely to give it away.

It's the people who are poor, that try and end up miserly and pinching every single penny.

Another thing is that part of the way people make money in this country is in trying to convince others that they want something that they don't really need. This too is driven by greed.

Funny, because I saw millions of dollars spent trying to convince everyone, that we wanted universal government run health care. I saw millions spent by Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton, and numerous others, that we wanted those idiots in office.

Must be all greedy bastards then.

This is dumb argument. That's retarded. I don't know what you did for a living, but my guess is your paycheck was tied to a marketing campaign somewhere. Every wage I earned in my life, was tied to marketing on something.

And in at least the next 50 years, it won't be.

Soviets said the same thing. So did Hugo Chavez in Venezuela. Not convincing me.

Because most of humanity and the rest of life on this planet will be extinct due to human caused global warming. Some say it will be within the next 20 years.

And there you have it. We're back to John Maynard Keynes "in the long run, we're all dead".

View attachment 341630

Look, if the world is going to end anyway, then what difference does it make if you get free education?

Dumb dumb dumb.

You must be high. If the wealthy gave their money away, they wouldn't have it to begin with. But I know what you're getting at. Who they leave their money to after they die. Well for any that might, chances are that many would do the types of things that Andrew Carnegie did. Building Carnegie Hall and other monuments to his vanity. And the reason why he could do so it because he had far more money than he needed. What I call somebody who has far more than they need is a pig.

Next, if you don't have pennys, what is there to pinch. On the other hand, I heard of a wealthy miserly woman. She had millions. But wouldn't pay for an operation that her son needed.

Next, people who didn't want universal health care spent far more. Also, some years ago there were some asshole tea party protesters across the street who were protesting against universal health care. At the end of the line where they had their cars parked, there were two people sitting in the back of their car promoting universal health care. Being so cool, I decided to go over and talk to them. I brought up to one of them how some insurance companies (though probably all) will have workers who's whole job is to dig up bullshit from the past of those they insure and use it as a reason to deny them coverage. Causing those people pain, suffering and death. As it turned out, the person I was talking to worked at an insurance company himself. And that was his job there. No doubt he was protesting for universal health care because he had a guilty conscience.

Also, I had the same sort of thing happen to me once. I got hit by a car in Florida. I was on a motorcycle stopped at a light and was hit from behind. Everybody was amazed that I survived. For the guy that hit me, his insurance dug up some bullshit from his past and denied him coverage. Leaving me fucked.

It might interest you to know that if we had universal health care, from what we would save on such pointless bureaucracy, it alone would pay for around half of what universal health care costs. And as I was saying to someone else, as a percentage of various countries GDP, the U.S. pays more and gets less than what other developed countries pay as a percentage of their GDP. I even remember hearing of some drug company here in the U.S. that made a particular drug that had been around for a long time. They raised the price of it by 100,000%! Need I go on.

If the wealthy gave their money away, they wouldn't have it to begin with.

There are many ways to give away money, that doesn't involve you becoming poor.

That's a dumb comment. Say I own a business, and my business generates $200,000 in profit for me.

I could give away $100,000 a year, every single year, and still be massively wealthy. In fact, not only could I give away $100,000 a year, but I could invest some of the remaining, and increase my net worth year over year, while still being extremely charitable.

Prove to me, you at least have some amount of intelligence at all, and stop saying ridiculously stupid comments. Think before you type, sir. Dumb statement. Very dumb.

What I call somebody who has far more than they need is a pig.

Just remember this.... to everyone in the world... you are the pig. You have far more than you need.

"more than they need" is subjective, and to 99% of this planet, you are the wealthy pig hording everything.

On the other hand, I heard of a wealthy miserly woman. She had millions. But wouldn't pay for an operation that her son needed.

Yes, and that is one example from how many millions on millions of wealthy people in this country?

We all know there are crazy people. Try not to judge everyone, based on the actions of the very few.

Next, people who didn't want universal health care spent far more.

Factually untrue. The most expensive plan at my multinational company of thousands on thousands of employees, was $350/month. That's the high end expensive family plan.

Universal health care is going to cost double our taxes. At the low end, it will cost a 12% increase in taxes, from the lowest tax bracket up.

Let's take a median income of $40,000 a year. 20% in taxes to pay for Universal Health care, would be $8,000 or $666 a month. The high end of the middle class would be around $60,000 a year, and that would cost $12,000 a year, or $1,000 a month. I don't know anyone paying that much for insurance.

I personally have never paid more than $200 a month for insurance anywhere.

Saying Universal Health care will cost less than our current system... is just factually wrong. Ridiculous honestly. Again, when you look at Europe, you don't see anyone anywhere in Europe that is paying less than we are. Not one. They all pay more... much more.

Again, marginal tax rate for someone earning $37,000 in the US is 22%. In the EU, it's 49%. More than double. And they earn less money than we do. They earn less, because of their tax and social systems. So they earn much less, and keep less of the less they earn.

And you think we'll end up better off using their system? You are crazy.

No doubt he was protesting for universal health care because he had a guilty conscience.

No. Insurance stand to make big money working with the government. The more you involve government with insurance companies, the more the insurance companies are going to make.

Free-markets make monopolies hard, because anyone can compete, and then you have to compete on services and prices. Competition makes life hard. You can't charge too much, or the customers leave. You can't save money by cutting services, or the customers leave. You have to constantly be checking to see where you are in the market, constantly checking your customer base to see if they are happy, and there is always a new competitor around the corner.

But with government, it is just like the BMV, and the Post Office, you can treat people like crap, and it doesn't affect you, because your money comes from government.

And generally you are shield by government when things go badly. Look at Franklin Raines. He was caught clearly fudging the numbers at Fannie Mae. Clear corruption, by fabricating profits, to trigger executive bonuses.

What happened to him? Nothing. We the tax payers paid for the entire failure of Fannie Mae, and Franklin Raines, didn't even go to trial for clear fraud, let alone prison.

Trust me, the biggest insurance companies are all completely in favor of Universal Health Care. They know they are going to make billions in profit, while being able to treat their customers like crap, and nothing will happen to them, because they'll have the backing of government.

This is why I've said hundreds of times, the socialists and left-wingers are the biggest pawns of big business there is. All the big companies have you people, wrapped around their figure, dancing to their tune, so they can make billions of dollars while we suffer... and you promote this to your own death.

Why don't you stop speaking crap. I said that as a percentage of various countries GDP, the ones who provide universal health care pay less. That's the end of the story. And here is something to back it up.

View attachment 342199

Nothing you said here, changes the facts I presented.

If you look at the tax rates required to pay for universal health care, you are going to pay more in taxes, than you ever did in premiums.

That's math. Your stats... don't change MATH.

Further, I agree that we do spend more... and we get better care than any of those countries. Every single time that they compare Survival rates between the US, and anywhere else, we have higher survival rates.

Why do you think every single year, Canadians come to the US for care? Because we have better care.

We have people that come here from all over the world. People from Australia, Sweden, Denmark, and Germany, come to the US for health care, because their care system sucks.

It's not because of price.

Americans will go aboard for care.... yes.... to reduce price.

But why are people from Europe routinely coming to the US for care? For price? No, because they have no price.

Why are they coming here? Why would they choose to pay for health care, that they supposedly get for free in Canada, and Europe? Why?

Because they'll die. Why will they die? Because their health care sucks.

Timely Medical | Timely Surgery at Affordable Prices

Recover quickly from surgery with Timely Medical. Enjoy discounts up to 80% and return to your routine within two weeks. Contact us for a free consult.

www.timelymedical.ca

Do you know what this company does in Canada? They charge people... to get care..... outside of Canada. Because their health care sucks.

How could a company like this exist in a country with "free" health care provided by the government?

Because government run care.... SUCKS.

Patients turning to care brokers

Canadians facing long treatment waits using companies to find U.S. care

www.theglobeandmail.com

Robot Check

This Vet in Canada, saved her own life, by doing diagnostic tests on herself, because Canadian health care sucks.

After her experience, she started comparing the difference in how dogs and pets are treated better in Canada, than human beings. Hence the name lucky dog. If she had not been a vet, and had access to medical equipment designed for animals, she likely would be dead today.

Don't sit there and tell me how much cheaper it is, because that makes you the greedy bastard you were talking about before.... trading dollars.... for lives. You don't care how many people die, so long as you save money on insurance premiums? Really?

I can recover from a hospital bill, even a large one. I know because I've done it. But I can't recover from dying to your socialized health care. Save a few bucks, and end up in a grave? Brilliant.

You are hallucinating. Some people do come here from other countries for health care. Big deal. Maybe they were going to come here for some reason anyway and decided to do the doctor thing while they were here. And there are people in Canada who won't come here unless they buy insurance for while they are here. They do so because out health care system sucks. I showed you the statistics. Americans pay a larger portion of their GDP for healthcare than the people of countries who provide free health care. Those are the facts. Like it or lump it. And after you've lumped it, lump it again.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2016-08-03/canadians-increasingly-come-to-us-for-health-care

Canadians are not coming here for vacation, and just passing by a hospital. They are coming specifically for health care. Routinely.

Americans pay a larger portion of their GDP for healthcare than

Irrelevant. You pay more for a Lexus RX than you do for a Chevrolet Sonic. Does that mean the Lexus is obviously terrible, and the Sonic is the best car ever built?

Of course not. That would be stupid. You are assuming that the quality of the care provided in Canada, and around the world, is the same as it is here.

It is not.

Countries around the world have far fewer treatments than here in the US.

Hospital waiting times at worst-ever level

Record numbers in England are on hospital waiting lists, while A&E delays highest since target introduced.

www.bbc.com

Massive wait times.

Medical Tourism

www.europeanmedicaltourist.com

Why does medical tourism within Europe even exist? They are paying half their income in taxes, and they are supposed to get 'free' health care. Why is medical tourism for Europeans, growing dramatically? Why are people willing to go to Pay-for-Service Capitalist based profit-driven hospitals in Europe, when they supposedly get free health care, from that 50% tax rate they pay?

From the OECD data:

Let’s look at interventional outcomes. According to the CDC, stroke is the cause of more than 130,000 deaths annually in the United States. However, the US has significantly lower rates of 30-day stroke-induced mortality than every other OECD country, aside from Japan and Korea. OECD data suggest that the age- and sex-adjusted mortality rates within Europe would translate to tens of thousands of additional deaths in the US.

If American Healthcare Kills, European Healthcare Kills More | Mahdi Barakat

Now flip the question: How many people die in other countries due to deficiencies in their healthcare systems? And how many people would die in the US if we had treatment outcomes similar to those in other countries?

fee.org

Death rate 'much higher' in English than US hospitals

"NHS death rate is one of worst in the West," says the Daily Mail, while The Times front page warns of "Alarm over 'high' death rate in English hospitals". This story was covered by most news outlets, including The Daily Telegraph, which ...

www.nhs.uk

This story was covered by most UK news outlets, including The Daily Telegraph, which reports that NHS patients are 45% more likely to die than patients in the US. The Telegraph says that data "over more than 10 years found NHS mortality rates were among the worst of those in seven developed countries".

But hey, at least those 45% that died, that would not have in the US... at least they didn't have an expensive medical bill.

Yes, Americans pay more for health care.

Because it's better.

If we had free healthcare, do you know what would change? NOTHING! The only thing that would change is who pays the bill. I also said that ever country with free health care goes about things a little differently. You said that in some aspects, Japan and South Korea do well. Well when we set up our universal health care system, all we have to do is what they're doing.

So you want the federal government coming out every year to measure your waist, and give you X amount of time to lose weight, and if you fail the second time, be shipped off to some fat farm?

Sorry, we don't want that here.

Is that what they do in Japan and South Korea? I've never heard of that one. So excuse me if I don't believe it.

Japan Enforces Legal Limit On Waistlines

Japan Enforces Legal Limit On Waistlines

www.huffpost.com

Summoned by the city of Amagasaki one recent morning, Minoru Nogiri, 45, a flower shop owner, found himself lining up to have his waistline measured. With no visible paunch, he seemed to run little risk of being classified as overweight, or metabo, the preferred word in Japan these days.

But because the new state-prescribed limit for male waistlines is a strict 33.5 inches, he had anxiously measured himself at home a couple of days earlier. “I’m on the border,” he said.

Japan, Seeking Trim Waists, Measures Millions (Published 2008)

A country not known for obesity has undertaken an ambitious campaign to slim down its citizenry.

www.nytimes.com

Man, how do you not know this stuff? You claim to be so smart, and know everything about universal health care.

They started this in 2008. That 12 years ago, and you don't know?

I guess you are not as smart as you claim, huh?

He claims to be smart, but when somebody posts evidence of their claim, he refuses to read it. I don't know any "smart person" that doesn't investigate counter claims. I also don't know any smart person that openly admits to being poor and incapable of getting a good paying job being helpless to improve their situation. Smart and educated people do all this and more, without the help of the federal government.

Yeah, this guy gets more crazy as time goes on. He talked about Auschwitz a few posts back, like it was a luxury day spa for workers. Claims no one was killed, or gassed. Like there isn't 15,000 pounds of human hair cut from men, women and children, sold to company friends that funded the Nazi government, that he supports so well.

View attachment 343684

Hair still on display at Auschwitz.

This guy is one of the dumbest nut jobs I've talk to in awhile. I was actually thinking a few weeks back, that it has been awhile since I encountered a true insane asylum reject on the forum.

He may be a sock. I remember some time ago, a member here used to post the same kind of stuff, but I forget his screen name now. You know, government should run everything, eliminate private industry, get rid of millionaires and billionaires, eliminate the US Constitution, just the same anti-American nonsense. After a while, everybody ignored him and he went away.

I simply don't understand why these people are still part of our country. They are against everything America is about. If I felt that way, I'd move out of the US, at the very least, to Canada.

 

[Papageorgio]

Yeah, this guy gets more crazy as time goes on. He talked about Auschwitz a few posts back, like it was a luxury day spa for workers. Claims no one was killed, or gassed. Like there isn't 15,000 pounds of human hair cut from men, women and children, sold to company friends that funded the Nazi government, that he supports so well.

View attachment 343684

Hair still on display at Auschwitz.

This guy is one of the dumbest nut jobs I've talk to in awhile. I was actually thinking a few weeks back, that it has been awhile since I encountered a true insane asylum reject on the forum.

He may be a sock. I remember some time ago, a member here used to post the same kind of stuff, but I forget his screen name now. You know, government should run everything, eliminate private industry, get rid of millionaires and billionaires, eliminate the US Constitution, just the same anti-American nonsense. After a while, everybody ignored him and he went away.

I simply don't understand why these people are still part of our country. They are against everything America is about. If I felt that way, I'd move out of the US, at the very least, to Canada.

I agree with both of you, each posts he makes his true colors come out and the crazier he sounds. So far, he seems to look at Hitler as a hero. There was no Holocaust. He believes the government should provide everything and everyone is treated the same and no one would accumulate wealth. Doctors, because of their skill set would get to live in a larger home as a reward for being a doctor, so much for all being treated the same. Only people he considers smart would run the country. Everything is provided for you however you have to work or you get sent to a camp, where you will labor the the "man". Sounds a lot like slavery to me. He believes the white race as superior to other races and loves Germans. I bet you he'd be for ending the freedom of expression as well.