Starting This Week, It’s Harder to Get an Abortion in 5 States

[JoeB131]

Yes, they are.

What's your point?

Until you guys support universal health care and family and medical leave, you really can't go blaming the ladies for being "selfish" when you are.

What are you willing to give up for your beliefs?

what does "universal health care and family and medical leave" have to do with this?

Exactly. Most companies already have all of those things tied to their benefits packages. And for those who don't...You can even receive these things via medicare and CYFD.

Uh, yeah, not really.

Last company I worked for, the one that fired me after I destroyed my knee and required surgery to fix it. They also fired two ladies right after they got pregnant.

And if you really think 12 weeks of unpaid leave is really a big inducement to keep that unplanned pregnancy, you are kidding yourself.

 

[JoeB131]

[


I'd have to say I don't think so- Schip was created for just that purpose, to insure kids in families with low incomes but to high for Medicaid. I don't know what you mean by 'solid health care'....

I am not sure why jobs ( or family leave if they Have jobs) is an issue here.

SCHIP, which the Republicans have fought tooth and nail at every turn.

Medicaid, which republicans have fought tooth and nail at every turn.

We have the worst health care system in the industrialized world as far as access.

So yeah, you can see why poor people might pick a $300.00 abortion over a $3000.00 live birth that takes them out of the workforce for months.

 

[Dragonlady]

Modern day contraception is highly effective. There is no way that people that practice modern day contraception end up pregnant 2.5 million times in a year by accident. That would be over 8% of the total population of the USA accidentally getting pregnant. 8% of the total population, half of which are men and many women that are too young or too old to actually get pregnant. Your 2.5 million number is ridiculous.

You also seem to think that SCHIP should provide support. Screw that! It is not the taxpayers responsibility to provide support for somebody else's actions. Hey, here is a thought, maybe if those fools knew that there was no such thing as government (taxpayers) footing the bill for their irresponsible behavior, they might actually take responsibility and not get pregnant.

I'm telling you what's available in other countries where the abortion rate is lower. The US is the only first world country where abortion isn't paid for with tax $$ and yet they have the highest rate of abortion.

The Republicans have added "disclosures" and counselling requirements, unnecessary medical tests to increase costs of the abortion, waiting periods and delays which add expense to out of town women and still the US has one of the highest rates of abortion in the world.

Medical benefits and maternity leave are not available to the poorest women in the lowest paying jobs, because those jobs don't have benefits.


Maybe it's not as easy as you think for poor women to access contraception and abortion.

 

[Derideo_Te]

If only 40% of unintended pregnancies are aborted then that means that there are 1.5 times as many that result in child birth. It is also means that contraception is failing 2.5 million times each year. Now is that because it is unavailable, it wasn't used properly, it wasn't used at all or that it simply failed to work?

For those 2.5 million women faced with an unintended pregnancy each year they have to make a difficult choice. 60% of them go ahead and have the child. How many of those children end up on SCHIP is something that I haven't researched but obviously a certain percentage will do so. This is a cost to society that taxpayers must bear.

So if abortions are no longer as readily available in those 5 states how many more of these children are going to end up needing coverage under SCHIP in those states? 75% of all abortions were for women below twice the poverty level. This indicates that 3 out of every 4 additional children that are not aborted in these states will need SCHIP support. Have the taxpayers in those states been told of the consequences of these laws? Are they in agreement that they are willing to assume this increased burden?

Your assumptions are borderline crazy.
Modern day contraception is highly effective. There is no way that people that practice modern day contraception end up pregnant 2.5 million times in a year by accident. That would be over 8% of the total population of the USA accidentally getting pregnant. 8% of the total population, half of which are men and many women that are too young or too old to actually get pregnant. Your 2.5 million number is ridiculous.
You also seem to think that SCHIP should provide support. Screw that! It is not the taxpayers responsibility to provide support for somebody else's actions. Hey, here is a thought, maybe if those fools knew that there was no such thing as government (taxpayers) footing the bill for their irresponsible behavior, they might actually take responsibility and not get pregnant.

Not sure where you are getting that 8% figure from. In the GI link it states;

Forty-six percent of women who have abortions had not used a contraceptive method during the month they became pregnant.

So contraception is completely ineffective if they are not using it. The GI also stipulates;

Each year, two percent of women aged 15–44 have an abortion

Based on that figure there are 60 million women capable of becoming pregnant. Since ovulation occurs in cycles that would mean that there are 720 million possible times for pregnancies to begin each year. The incident of unintended pregnancies would depend upon the frequency of intercourse but that is not provided by the GI statistics.

 

[Katzndogz]

[


I'd have to say I don't think so- Schip was created for just that purpose, to insure kids in families with low incomes but to high for Medicaid. I don't know what you mean by 'solid health care'....

I am not sure why jobs ( or family leave if they Have jobs) is an issue here.

SCHIP, which the Republicans have fought tooth and nail at every turn.

Medicaid, which republicans have fought tooth and nail at every turn.

We have the worst health care system in the industrialized world as far as access.


So yeah, you can see why poor people might pick a $300.00 abortion over a $3000.00 live birth that takes them out of the workforce for months.

Both Robert Malthus and Margaret Sanger supported abortion as a means of getting rid of the poor and other undesirables. Sanger believed that blacks specifically could be convinced that abortion was beneficial and voluntarily abort themselves into extinction. Malthus, as an economist, believed that the poor could never better their circumstances. As soon as they had more money they would have more children. Like rats with a ready food supply. Also like rats, the poor would breed until overcrowding led them to kill one another. The poor were expected to and did keep their numbers down by killing. A neater way to die is abortion.

That's your thinking.

Today in the US abortion has left a diminished future workforce that can be fixed by immigration. After all we are killing off the next generation.

 

[Dragonlady]

It is really irrelevant to the debate what Sanger believed. What is relevant is the circumstances that lead poor women of any race to abort: The inability to care for more children than they already have.

With 70% of women citing the financial inability to carry, bear and raise more children as the primary reason for obtaining an abortion, and with such a large percentage of women obtaining abortions being married or in a committed long-term relationship, the idea that women are obtaining abortions as a matter of convenience to continue a hedonistic, promisicuous lifestyle really flies out the window.

But then the idea that women are getting abortions because they're too lazy to bother with birth control is just one of a number of conservatives lies about the abortion issue.

 

[JoeB131]

[

Both Robert Malthus and Margaret Sanger supported abortion as a means of getting rid of the poor and other undesirables. Sanger believed that blacks specifically could be convinced that abortion was beneficial and voluntarily abort themselves into extinction. Malthus, as an economist, believed that the poor could never better their circumstances. As soon as they had more money they would have more children. Like rats with a ready food supply. Also like rats, the poor would breed until overcrowding led them to kill one another. The poor were expected to and did keep their numbers down by killing. A neater way to die is abortion.

That's your thinking.

Today in the US abortion has left a diminished future workforce that can be fixed by immigration. After all we are killing off the next generation.

Most quotes attributed to Sanger on race have been proven to be forgeries by RW Nutters.

You really need to stop getting your history from RW websites. Especially since Sanger really didn't say much about Abortion,which was illegal in her time.

 

[kwc57]

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Since you don't give a shit about babies being killed, I fail to understand why you give a shit about women having a botched abortion. Do explain why one person has more value than the other.

Fetuses aren't babies.

And you really didn't address the point.

This is the problem with you anti-abortion types. You never tell us how you are going to enforce your laws. Are you going to throw women who have abortions in prison?

Yessss, because babies just magically appear out of thin air. You're the kind of dumbass who would eat the seed corn because you were hungry today. Why don't you guys give full disclosure. You aren't pro-"choice", your pro-aboortion.....or more accurately, pro-murder.

 

[Dragonlady]

Yessss, because babies just magically appear out of thin air. You're the kind of dumbass who would eat the seed corn because you were hungry today. Why don't you guys give full disclosure. You aren't pro-"choice", your pro-aboortion.....or more accurately, pro-murder.

Being pro-choice doesn't mean we're pro-abortion. Many pro-choice people are very much opposed to abortion and we made that choice in our own lives. We want our daughters to have that choice too.


If you believe in your heart, as I do, that abortion is wrong, then don't have an abortion. It's really just that simple. But I would not presume to tell a woman that she must have a baby she isn't financially or emotionally prepared to raise, and put her existing children at risk.

And it's absolutely shocking to me that conservatives, who chant that mantra of "personal responsibility" at every turn, are such hypocrites when it comes to the most personal decision a woman will ever have to make.

 

[kwc57]

Yessss, because babies just magically appear out of thin air. You're the kind of dumbass who would eat the seed corn because you were hungry today. Why don't you guys give full disclosure. You aren't pro-"choice", your pro-aboortion.....or more accurately, pro-murder.

Being pro-choice doesn't mean we're pro-abortion. Many pro-choice people are very much opposed to abortion and we made that choice in our own lives. We want our daughters to have that choice too.


If you believe in your heart, as I do, that abortion is wrong, then don't have an abortion. It's really just that simple. But I would not presume to tell a woman that she must have a baby she isn't financially or emotionally prepared to raise, and put her existing children at risk.

And it's absolutely shocking to me that conservatives, who chant that mantra of "personal responsibility" at every turn, are such hypocrites when it comes to the most personal decision a woman will ever have to make.

Here is the problem in a nutshell. Pro-life/anti-abortion folks see a fetus as a defenseless, human life that has a right to be protected. When a woman makes a "choice" to abort her baby, she deprives it of life. It really is as simple as that. Unless you are John Kerry, you can't be against something and for something at the same time. If you are pro-choice.....the "choice" you are pro for is abortion. Therefore, you are in fact pro-abortion and abortion is death. You can try to rationalize it to ease your mind and feel better about yourself, but it is what it is. And an FYI, I once believed the same way you did.

 

[Dragonlady]

If that life MUST be protected, why do 1/3 of all pregnancies end in spontaneous miscarriage? Why don't doctors do more to prevent miscarriages? A fetus is NOT a child. It is a potential child which has a 2 in 3 chance of becoming a baby.

Here we will never agree. Because I truly don't believe that a potential child has more rights than the mother, and I don't believe that anyone but the mother has the right to decide it's fate, since she is the one who will ultimately be responsible for raising that child.

The ONLY person I know who treated abortion as birth control and genuinely didn't care about having multiple abortions was a die-hard conservative who castigated me for marching in a pro-choice rally when I was 6 months pregnant. Every other woman I know who had an abortion thought long and hard about it, and all said they would never want to go through that again. The emotional toll was too high. But that they really felt they did the right thing and if faced with that decision again, they would make the same choice.

 

[Misty]

Planned parenthood brings in close to a billion dollars a year. Abortion is their prime service. Link that mister math.

The Truth about the Abortion Industry | Abortion, American Center for Law and Justice ACLJ

"According to Planned Parenthood’s own apologist, Media Matters, its “total revenue from abortion services was approximately $164,154,000,” a year. Accordingly, over 51 percent of Planned Parenthood’s clinic income comes from abortion.

In addition to its $320.1 million in clinic income and $223.8 million in private donations, Planned Parenthood receives $487.4 million dollars a year from taxpayers. And that number is drastically increasing. Taxpayer funding for the abortion giant has more than doubled in the last decade.

Planned Parenthood is the largest abortion provider in America, taking in nearly half a billion dollars of taxpayer money as it systematically ends the lives of nearly 330,000 babies a year"

Do you have a link that supports your allegation?

There are approximately 1 million abortions per year and in 2008 there were just under 1800 providers. According to the Guttmacher Institure the average cost of an abortion is about $370. This means that the average provider performs about 555 per year.

Do the math and it comes to a total gross income of just over $200k before expenses like rent, staff, equipment, insurance, etc, etc.

So please provide the link that shows proves "Doctors who perform them make millions".

Thank you.

Thank you for the link.

Unfortunately the math still doesn't make any sense.

According to your link PP performed 329,445 abortions. At an average cost of $370 each that only amounts to $121,894,650 in gross income. Given that PP operates 750 clinics nationwide that overages out to about $162,500 each. Even if you take the $164 million figure you still average out at less than $220,000 per clinic.

So you still haven't established that "Doctors who perform them make millions" yet.

Would you like to try again?

 

[kwc57]

If that life MUST be protected, why do 1/3 of all pregnancies end in spontaneous miscarriage? Why don't doctors do more to prevent miscarriages? A fetus is NOT a child. It is a potential child which has a 2 in 3 chance of becoming a baby.

Here we will never agree. Because I truly don't believe that a potential child has more rights than the mother, and I don't believe that anyone but the mother has the right to decide it's fate, since she is the one who will ultimately be responsible for raising that child.

The ONLY person I know who treated abortion as birth control and genuinely didn't care about having multiple abortions was a die-hard conservative who castigated me for marching in a pro-choice rally when I was 6 months pregnant. Every other woman I know who had an abortion thought long and hard about it, and all said they would never want to go through that again. The emotional toll was too high. But that they really felt they did the right thing and if faced with that decision again, they would make the same choice.

For the pure sake of argument, what about a women who chose to get pregnant and have a baby and someone stabbed her in the stomach and killed the "wanted" fetus? Has that person committed a murder or will the courts see the fetus as not a baby, so no harm, no foul? Does the mother wanting or not wanting the baby determine it's humanity? As I said, I once thought like you did in my younger days. They are tough questions with no easy answers. But the more years I've had to ponder it, the more I come out on the side of anti-abortion. Pregnancy is very preventable........and please don't resort to the rape argument. The number of abortions needed as a result of rape is miniscule compared to the number of abortions as a result of convenience.

 

[JoeB131]

[

Since you don't give a shit about babies being killed, I fail to understand why you give a shit about women having a botched abortion. Do explain why one person has more value than the other.

Fetuses aren't babies.

And you really didn't address the point.

This is the problem with you anti-abortion types. You never tell us how you are going to enforce your laws. Are you going to throw women who have abortions in prison?

Yessss, because babies just magically appear out of thin air. You're the kind of dumbass who would eat the seed corn because you were hungry today. Why don't you guys give full disclosure. You aren't pro-"choice", your pro-aboortion.....or more accurately, pro-murder.

Actually, I'm pro "Pissing off the religous assholes".

Here's the thing, guy, if we didn't have abortion, we'd have more people than we can support, and not necessarily the useful ones. Abortion makes up for the fact we don't have a 50% infant mortality rate like humanity had through most of history.

The prisons are full of people who were not wanted by their parents. We certainly don't need more of that.

And again- you didn't answer the question.

How are going to stop women from getting abortions?

 

[JoeB131]

[

Here is the problem in a nutshell. Pro-life/anti-abortion folks see a fetus as a defenseless, human life that has a right to be protected. When a woman makes a "choice" to abort her baby, she deprives it of life. It really is as simple as that. Unless you are John Kerry, you can't be against something and for something at the same time. If you are pro-choice.....the "choice" you are pro for is abortion. Therefore, you are in fact pro-abortion and abortion is death. You can try to rationalize it to ease your mind and feel better about yourself, but it is what it is. And an FYI, I once believed the same way you did.

Funny, that.

I used to buy into the whole "Pro-Life" propaganda bullshit.

Until I realized it was something used by the religious asshole and the wealthy to keep me voting against my own economic interests.

Ever ask yourself why abortion is still legal 40 years after Roe v. Wade?

I mean, the rich get their tax cuts, their free trade treaties, their right to work and at will employment laws.

And oddly, no one is doing that much to protect kidney-beaned sized fetuses.