Starting This Week, It’s Harder to Get an Abortion in 5 States

[Trajan]

the topic is-

Starting This Week, It’s Harder to Get an Abortion in 5 States

Forgive my ignorance but is discussing the REASON why this is happening, WHO is being impacted the most and potential ways this problem can be REMEDIED off limits?

no, I did it as a general push in the topics direction, I have some experience ( doing it to and seeing it happen) in seeing topics bast off so to speak into something else, and since there is no connection made in your post, between abortion and........

 

[Derideo_Te]

the topic is-

Starting This Week, It’s Harder to Get an Abortion in 5 States

Forgive my ignorance but is discussing the REASON why this is happening, WHO is being impacted the most and potential ways this problem can be REMEDIED off limits?

no, I did it as a general push in the topics direction, I have some experience ( doing it to and seeing it happen) in seeing topics bast off so to speak into something else, and since there is no connection made in your post, between abortion and........

Understood regarding going off topic. Yes we all do it occasionally.

However are you now saying that there is no connection at all between the new abortion restrictions in 5 states and those who are using it as a political cudgel to impose their "war on women" agenda?

 

[alan1]

2) Big difference- you can get a conviction for murder. You can't get a conviction for abortion.

Do you ever read the news?
Kermit Gosnell?

You mean the one where they had to try to tack a dead woman, seven babies outside the womb (that got knocked down to three) and a bunch of drug charges to get a conviction, and then had to cut a deal with him after the trial so he wouldn't appeal it to someone who can actually read a law book?

I think you are kind of proving my point. If you have to put that much firepower into convicting a total fuckup like Gosnell, and still contort yourself into a pretzel to get half a loaf, convicting a woman of having a nice clean surgical abortion in a licensed clinic is going to be pretty much impossible.

Oddly enough, I never traveled that path of argument. Take your strawman someplace else.

 

[Interpol]

Good for them.

*****************************************************************


Abortion restrictions are popping up everywhere, it seems.

While activists and celebrities protest a bill in Texas, Ohio just enacted legislation of its own.

A thousand miles from Austin, Texas, Republican Ohio Gov. John Kasich signed new restrictions Sunday night as part of a new state budget. Ohio will soon require that women receive ultrasounds before having abortions, and the state will ban public hospitals from having written agreements with abortion clinics to receive women for further care after they have elective abortions.

Those laws won’t take effect for 90 days, according to Kasich’s office.

But new laws, already passed and signed earlier this year, went into effect Monday in Alabama, Indiana, Kansas, Mississippi and South Dakota. Another in Montana, and part of a law in Alabama, would have taken effect but were blocked by federal courts. All were passed by GOP-controlled state legislatures and signed by GOP governors.

Starting This Week, It?s Harder to Get an Abortion in 5 States - ABC News

This thread is incorrect.

It is just as easy to get an abortion from just anyone who will do it. But in 5 states this past week, it is harder to get one done safely from professionals who know what they're doing.

 

[JoeB131]

Trajan, a lot to go through, I just want to hit some of the high points. but thanks for a thoughtful response overall.

[

then you are using the word/term 'standard' wrong. The standard isn't 'I want it gone so it goes away', its never been that simple and there are rules.

The standard is what the gov. allows and I don't have an issue with 26 weeks btw.

Do you recognize any limits? 26, 30, or right up until the due date?

I think the limit should be what the woman and her doctor think is appropriate. I also don't believe that anyone has an abortion after 24 weeks unless something has gone horribly wrong with the pregnancy. In any event, I see no reason for politiicians to be sticking their nose in.

[


see bold emphasis- then I feel sorry for them and I am betting that for maybe a third that may be true, but as for the rest I would hope and believe they see it as more than just a "problem", not some dispassionate issue that requires little more thought than what kind of smart phone to buy ....this is a viable life (until or if proven otherwise)

I was referring to those who seek abortion, of course. Sorry I didn't make myself clear on that point. But here's the thing, for a woman who isn't ready yet, this is a problem.

I spoke of the gal I knew who tried to force the issue with her boyfriend by 'forgetting' her birth control. Now, having to have the baby would mean dropping out of school, limiting her job prospects, causing all sorts of problems with her parents and long drawn out legal proceedings with her ex-boyfriend. In short, she would have been in a world of suck because she made one bad decision.

Here's the thing. I'm not pro-abortion (although I do confess to a bit of malicious mischeif tweeking peole like Jinn and Kosher.) I just think the anti-choice folks who think putting more obstacles in the way of women getting them are on teh wrong track.

[
I'll throw out a general observation- theres are entities that love using crass emotional appeals to drive agenda.

I have heard that case made vis a vis states wanting to enact laws demanding sonograms prior to an abortion, yes, I can see that as an emotional appeal as well as containing an educational aspect too.
.

I think the problem with the mandetory sonogram is that at the stage most women have an abortion, you really can't see anything. At 8 weeks, (where most abortions are performed) the fetus is the size of a kidney bean.

But I will go even one further. The Right can't stop talking about late abortions, and the left can't stop talking about rape abortions, but between them, they probably represent less than 1% of all abortions performed. Both sides appeal to emotion.

 

[BorisTheAnimal]

And the other 99.99% of abortions performed are purely out of selfishness.

 

[Plasmaball]

How's this for a crazy idea.

If you don't like abortion, don't have one.

But otherwise, mind your own business.

I mean, isn't that like a crazy idea?

Zimmerman is on trial for killing Martin.

So how's this for a crazy idea.

Just let him go and mind your own business.

If you're going to ignore killing, then ignore killing for everyone.

**** you are stupid...not even the same planet.

 

[Plasmaball]

Oh NO...now doctors have to examine women seeking an abortion first before handing out medication. Tragedy...now women have to wait 72 hours after consulting an abortion doctor and abortions can only be performed during normal business hours. Gasp...women can no longer deduct abortions from their income taxes.

You ding bats are funny when you run off at the mouth before even reading the article.

Its still none of your business.

 

[prepster]

How's this for a crazy idea.

If you don't like abortion, don't have one.

But otherwise, mind your own business.

I mean, isn't that like a crazy idea?

This is not a crazy idea at all. At the same time, why do we need government legislating morality? Whether you are for or against abortion, you must realize that the federal government and state governments all legislate on the morality of abortion one way or another, and not on the science. The question of when human life begins is well-known; life begins at fertilization. Life, however, is not the standard used in abortion; personhood is what matters. In that regard, science has no reason to rule on such a matter, nor do scientists have an answer to when personhood begins.

With that being said, it is illegitimately normative, to even allow the government to define when a woman can or cannot get an abortion. No objectivity is involved in such an endeavor, which is why ideally, government should not be involved in any matter of human reproductive affairs, and realistically, it should maximize the freedom of the individual to determine matters of reproduction for themselves.

 

[koshergrl]

[

OK, now I get it, it is a matter of how long one can live with assistance.
The cessation of brain waves is considered death. Why is the inception of brain waves not considered life?

1) Because we really don't know for sure when brain waves begin.

2) As a purely practical matter, women are going to get abortions no matter what the law is.

1) Medical science has figured it out. Your ignorance of that is no excuse.

2) Same logic, As a purely practical matter, people are going murder no matter what the law is. But even you wouldn't advocate removing the laws against murder, would you?

Yes, he would.

 

[JoeB131]

And the other 99.99% of abortions performed are purely out of selfishness.

Yes, they are.

What's your point?

Until you guys support universal health care and family and medical leave, you really can't go blaming the ladies for being "selfish" when you are.

What are you willing to give up for your beliefs?

 

[JoeB131]

Do you ever read the news?
Kermit Gosnell?

You mean the one where they had to try to tack a dead woman, seven babies outside the womb (that got knocked down to three) and a bunch of drug charges to get a conviction, and then had to cut a deal with him after the trial so he wouldn't appeal it to someone who can actually read a law book?

I think you are kind of proving my point. If you have to put that much firepower into convicting a total fuckup like Gosnell, and still contort yourself into a pretzel to get half a loaf, convicting a woman of having a nice clean surgical abortion in a licensed clinic is going to be pretty much impossible.

Nice work defending that bottom feeding butcher.

That bottom feeder wouldn't have existed if the inbred bible thumpers in PA's "T" didn't pass a bunch of goofy laws trying to keep women from getting easy, clean early abortions.

Gosnell is what would happen if your sort ever got their way.

 

[Trajan]

And the other 99.99% of abortions performed are purely out of selfishness.

Yes, they are.

What's your point?

Until you guys support universal health care and family and medical leave, you really can't go blaming the ladies for being "selfish" when you are.

What are you willing to give up for your beliefs?

what does "universal health care and family and medical leave" have to do with this?

 

[Trajan]

Forgive my ignorance but is discussing the REASON why this is happening, WHO is being impacted the most and potential ways this problem can be REMEDIED off limits?

no, I did it as a general push in the topics direction, I have some experience ( doing it to and seeing it happen) in seeing topics bast off so to speak into something else, and since there is no connection made in your post, between abortion and........

Understood regarding going off topic. Yes we all do it occasionally.

However are you now saying that there is no connection at all between the new abortion restrictions in 5 states and those who are using it as a political cudgel to impose their "war on women" agenda?

I have said no such thing and neither did you in that exchange that prompted my post......

 

[Trajan]

Trajan, a lot to go through, I just want to hit some of the high points. but thanks for a thoughtful response overall.

[

then you are using the word/term 'standard' wrong. The standard isn't 'I want it gone so it goes away', its never been that simple and there are rules.

The standard is what the gov. allows and I don't have an issue with 26 weeks btw.

Do you recognize any limits? 26, 30, or right up until the due date?

I think the limit should be what the woman and her doctor think is appropriate.

so, to be clear- the answer appears to be; no time limit and if its the day before the bay was due under normal circumstances thats fine...(?)

I also don't believe that anyone has an abortion after 24 weeks unless something has gone horribly wrong with the pregnancy. In any event, I see no reason for politiicians to be sticking their nose in.

if that were the case, I suspect we would not be having this discussion.

The politicians are politicians becasue they are elected to do what they do, who else is there? (and don't say the mother )

[


see bold emphasis- then I feel sorry for them and I am betting that for maybe a third that may be true, but as for the rest I would hope and believe they see it as more than just a "problem", not some dispassionate issue that requires little more thought than what kind of smart phone to buy ....this is a viable life (until or if proven otherwise)

I was referring to those who seek abortion, of course. Sorry I didn't make myself clear on that point. But here's the thing, for a woman who isn't ready yet, this is a problem.

I spoke of the gal I knew who tried to force the issue with her boyfriend by 'forgetting' her birth control. Now, having to have the baby would mean dropping out of school, limiting her job prospects, causing all sorts of problems with her parents and long drawn out legal proceedings with her ex-boyfriend. In short, she would have been in a world of suck because she made one bad decision.

Here's the thing. I'm not pro-abortion (although I do confess to a bit of malicious mischeif tweeking peole like Jinn and Kosher.) I just think the anti-choice folks who think putting more obstacles in the way of women getting them are on teh wrong track.

fair enough, but we have yet to agree, that is in our exchange on what a reasonable yardstick is, I will sit with 26 weeks ( minus threats to the mothers life etc.) .

[
I'll throw out a general observation- theres are entities that love using crass emotional appeals to drive agenda.

I have heard that case made vis a vis states wanting to enact laws demanding sonograms prior to an abortion, yes, I can see that as an emotional appeal as well as containing an educational aspect too.
.

I think the problem with the mandetory sonogram is that at the stage most women have an abortion, you really can't see anything. At 8 weeks, (where most abortions are performed) the fetus is the size of a kidney bean.

But I will go even one further. The Right can't stop talking about late abortions, and the left can't stop talking about rape abortions, but between them, they probably represent less than 1% of all abortions performed. Both sides appeal to emotion.

I was referring to an ultra sound at the later stages 26 weeks and there after...

and I agree that the right moves the conversation, uses late term as a hammer as its particular egregious where in what I think, they really want to to stop all abortions, which, well, that ship has sailed.

 

[laughinReaper]

[

1 Tell that to my friend who got an infection and had a hysterectomy at age 25 because of an abortion. Birthcontrol = no pregnancy which means it's the safest of all. USE IT.

Anecdotes are not evidence.

2 a disgrace. As a parent if something goes wrong I would have absolutely no clue what happened and yet I am Legally responsible for that minor.

if something goes wrong, then you can sue the doctor for malpractice.





Fetuses aren't children. Incidently,the scenario I described did not happen to me personally.

5. I have always paid for my birthcontrol either through private insurance or when I wasn't covered I paid for it MYSELF. I have 3 daughters, guess what. Before they got a job we paid for it. Then they got a job and they paid for it. See how a responsible person does it. They simply don't buy a play station,xbox,games,eat out,buy expensive shoes etc. and pay for it themselves. BTW a womans OBGYN can sometimes help get discounts form the contraception company to help poorer people get what they need.

That's all well and good and all, but the fact is, most of us don't know what our employer insurer covers until we get sick. That is if you are lucky enough to not work for an employer who fires you when you do have an issue. Like mine, that fired not only me when I required a couple major surguries a couple years ago, but fire two gals when they got pregnant.

6. what is the likelyhood of a woman getting pregnant if the man used a condom and The woman uses multiple methods of birth control? 1 condom,1 diaphram with spermicide and the pill. All it takes is a little pause before you hop into bed to put the condom on and diaphram in and you can boink all you want and chances are she will not be pregnant. Then or course you can go about it another way altogether. She won't get pregnant using sex toys,oral,anal,hand job...

Okay, guy. Guess what. Yes, it would be nice if EVERYONE practiced birth control.

It would be nice if everyone who rode a motorcycle wore a helmet. But I'm not about to close down the emergency rooms becuase some people don't.

1. Real life expirences are not evidence?

2. She is a MINOR. When she does something legally wrong the Police come looking for me. If she causes damage I pay for it. SHE IS NOT ALLOWED TO MAKE DECISIONS FOR HERSELF, HENCE SHE IS A MINOR. She can't even vote, or operate machinary including a freight elevator or industrial garbage disposal. WTF should she be allowed to make a potentially dangerous decision or have a surgical proceedure without my approval or consent. That's absurd. If my daughter had something go wrong from an abortion I didn't know about not only would I sue for malpractice but I'd go after any and all agency's who allowed this to happen. I'd own that abortion clinic and do my best to publicly ruin the careers of any and all people involved including the politicians past and present who approved this shit. Protest all you want people but the one thing that gets them every time is a major lawsuit and bad publicity.


3.Really? fetus' are not children. Go to the materinity ward and tell a woman in labor her fetus is not a child. I guarentee her husband will turn you into a pretzel. Of couse it's a child. FYI I have a child born at 7 months. She was 2 lbs 7oz at birth. She will turn 21 in two weeks. WTF are you or anybody else to decide who gets to live and who gets to die because your stupid OPINION is that a fetus is not a child?

4. I didn't say I always had insurance to pay for it. There were times i didn't and I paid out of pocket because if I don't have the cash to pay for birthcontrol pills I sure as hell don't have the money to support a child. IF those pills had to get bought with food money than so be it, but they I ALWAYS had them no matter what. I'm pretty sure you and the two girls who got fired for being pregnant have a very actionable case and should seek legal counsel.

5. Hopefully people who go to the emergency room for motorcycle accidents will get billed and pay for services rendered. They played with their own lives not the lives of unborn children. Pregnancy is 99.9 % preventable, it's not an accident except in cases of rape or incest. I'm not saying it should be across the board illegal but it sure as hell shouldn't be allowed because the idiot was irresponsible and finds themselves Inconvenienced by their stupidity. It should be allowed in cases of rape,incest and when the mothers life is in danger. Reproductive responsibility is the answer to the debate and should be expected socially.

 

[Derideo_Te]

no, I did it as a general push in the topics direction, I have some experience ( doing it to and seeing it happen) in seeing topics bast off so to speak into something else, and since there is no connection made in your post, between abortion and........

Understood regarding going off topic. Yes we all do it occasionally.

However are you now saying that there is no connection at all between the new abortion restrictions in 5 states and those who are using it as a political cudgel to impose their "war on women" agenda?

I have said no such thing and neither did you in that exchange that prompted my post......

Yes, you are right that I didn't say it explicitly and you would have no way of knowing how I was making that connection without posting something to that effect. Thanks for the heads up.

 

[Derideo_Te]

And the other 99.99% of abortions performed are purely out of selfishness.

Yes, they are.

What's your point?

Until you guys support universal health care and family and medical leave, you really can't go blaming the ladies for being "selfish" when you are.

What are you willing to give up for your beliefs?

what does "universal health care and family and medical leave" have to do with this?

Just hazarding a guess but given that the Guttmacher Institute cites that 75% of all women who have abortions do so because they cannot afford the cost of having a child don't you think that universal health care and medical leave would alleviate some of that problem?

Facts on Induced Abortion in the United States

• Forty-two percent of women obtaining abortions have incomes below 100% of the federal poverty level ($10,830 for a single woman with no children).[6]
• Twenty-seven percent of women obtaining abortions have incomes between 100–199% of the federal poverty level.* [6]
• The reasons women give for having an abortion underscore their understanding of the responsibilities of parenthood and family life. Three-fourths of women cite concern for or responsibility to other individuals; three-fourths say they cannot afford a child; three-fourths say that having a baby would interfere with work, school or the ability to care for dependents; and half say they do not want to be a single parent or are having problems with their husband or partner.[7]

 

[JoeB131]

And the other 99.99% of abortions performed are purely out of selfishness.

Yes, they are.

What's your point?

Until you guys support universal health care and family and medical leave, you really can't go blaming the ladies for being "selfish" when you are.

What are you willing to give up for your beliefs?

what does "universal health care and family and medical leave" have to do with this?

The fact that countries that have them have a lower abortion rate than we have.

 

[JoeB131]

[

1. Real life expirences are not evidence?

2. She is a MINOR. When she does something legally wrong the Police come looking for me. If she causes damage I pay for it. SHE IS NOT ALLOWED TO MAKE DECISIONS FOR HERSELF, HENCE SHE IS A MINOR. She can't even vote, or operate machinary including a freight elevator or industrial garbage disposal. WTF should she be allowed to make a potentially dangerous decision or have a surgical proceedure without my approval or consent. That's absurd. If my daughter had something go wrong from an abortion I didn't know about not only would I sue for malpractice but I'd go after any and all agency's who allowed this to happen. I'd own that abortion clinic and do my best to publicly ruin the careers of any and all people involved including the politicians past and present who approved this shit. Protest all you want people but the one thing that gets them every time is a major lawsuit and bad publicity.


3.Really? fetus' are not children. Go to the materinity ward and tell a woman in labor her fetus is not a child. I guarentee her husband will turn you into a pretzel. Of couse it's a child. FYI I have a child born at 7 months. She was 2 lbs 7oz at birth. She will turn 21 in two weeks. WTF are you or anybody else to decide who gets to live and who gets to die because your stupid OPINION is that a fetus is not a child?

4. I didn't say I always had insurance to pay for it. There were times i didn't and I paid out of pocket because if I don't have the cash to pay for birthcontrol pills I sure as hell don't have the money to support a child. IF those pills had to get bought with food money than so be it, but they I ALWAYS had them no matter what. I'm pretty sure you and the two girls who got fired for being pregnant have a very actionable case and should seek legal counsel.

5. Hopefully people who go to the emergency room for motorcycle accidents will get billed and pay for services rendered. They played with their own lives not the lives of unborn children. Pregnancy is 99.9 % preventable, it's not an accident except in cases of rape or incest. I'm not saying it should be across the board illegal but it sure as hell shouldn't be allowed because the idiot was irresponsible and finds themselves Inconvenienced by their stupidity. It should be allowed in cases of rape,incest and when the mothers life is in danger. Reproductive responsibility is the answer to the debate and should be expected socially.

1. Statistically, Abortion is safer than childbirth. Although both are really safe today due to advances in modern medicine.

2. Like it or not, the law says she has the ability to make that decision. I happen to think it's a sound law.

3. Sorry, that's the law. And it should be.

4. In theory, yeah, we had actionable courses. In my own case, they pretty much offered me 10K in "please don't sue us money". But the reality is IL and most of the country are "At Will Employment" states.

5. I think you miss my point. If people were careful, there would be no accidents. But people aren't careful. If people were careful, there would be no unplanned pregnancies. Same deal.