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Zone1 Social Security Scam

Couchpotato

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The part you are not taking into account... just sayin...

Let's say you end SS forced savings January 2023.
Cool we all start keeping our own money. Yay!
Fast forward 20 years. Well...what do you know?.. big surprise!.. The VAST majority of Americans did not save that money. They spent it all on new cars, bigger houses etc. etc.
And now they are all screwed. Millions of people.
Millions of people makes a nice fat voting block! OOooOOoo!! And what party do you think will appease that big fat voting block?? You really think the government won't bail them out?? And whose money do you think is going to bail them out?
That's your assumption. If people knew they had to provide for their retirement I think they do invest/save. Either way more would than do now, which would be an overall savings to the taxpayer because 100% of people get elderly welfare now....
 

Couchpotato

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You don't understand what algebra is. That is your your problem.

These calculations of how much money you could have had if not paying into social security? Yep! That's algebra. I taught it for 21 years!

I understand what algebra which is is how I know most people don't use it. No one is sitting down and doing their compound interest calculations on paper and even if they are there's no reason to and therefore no reason to have 85% of the HS population taking a worthless class teaching them information they will never use.
 

Admiral Rockwell Tory

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Derp.
Derp. What if the internet goes down?

Using your lack of logics, we should just ensure kids get a laptop with internet access and they will never need to learn a thing!
 

Admiral Rockwell Tory

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If we expect the 20 year-old to be self-sufficient then why not the 68 year-old?
The 68 year old contributed t social security for more than 40 years. How about your 20 year old?

God, you are stupid!
 

iamwhatiseem

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This is basically the condensed argument for socialism.
Not by me.
All I am saying is that is what would end up happening.
The Democrats are always salivating for an opportunity to white night "unfortunate" groups to buy their votes.
And millions of people with no retirement and in financial ruin will make one helluva voting block for them to get their hands around.
 

iamwhatiseem

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Derp.
Something I said to my kids 100 times, and plenty of other folks as well - you have to look at things as they are, and not how you want them to be ideally.
Ideally - America would be like Monaco right now if SS was never instituted, and people instead used the money to invest and save.
But that is entirely idealistic and naive.
Reality is millions more would be in poverty because they blew every dime of it.
Still true today - even after 2008 - Americans have an abysmal savings rate. Give them more money - and they will just spend more and borrow even more.
Consider - the median average amount of saving 60 year old Americans have in 2020 is $6,400.
60 years old and only $6k in liquid assets. Insanity
 

flacaltenn

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Social Security and Medicare are much better than FDR ever imagined

FDR wouldn't agree to that. And its a DISASTER in terms of the funding and the phony Trust Fund.

When FDR proposed the plan -- there were 5 or more workers per retirees. Now at the middle of the Baby Boom -- just barely 2. BOTH PARTIES robbed the pockets of the working class for decades and SPENT the overcharges. Nothing of value was created for the "Baby Boom". We're living in the middle of financial DISASTER that we were warned about for decades.

And the ignorant, lazy, politically aligned media??? Not a freakin word from them about the crisis. Journalism schools should be CLOSED until they remove the hacks that cant teach the subject.
 

Admiral Rockwell Tory

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I understand what algebra which is is how I know most people don't use it. No one is sitting down and doing their compound interest calculations on paper and even if they are there's no reason to and therefore no reason to have 85% of the HS population taking a worthless class teaching them information they will never use.
If you had to do it, you could, dumbass!

In high school, my daughter loaded up on biology classes. She married a sailor and was a stay at home Mom. Twelve years later my grandson was diagnosed with leukemia. She understood the medicine so well, my grandson's doctors told her she should go to medical school. Soon she will graduate as a paramedic and is currently the best EMT her county has. Where would she be if she never understood biology? Her highest math class? College algebra.

My youngest has a degree in biology. She is a logistics officer for the Army. Her best subject in school? Art! Her highest math class? Calculus!

My son was an infantry sergeant in Afghanistan. His highest math? Precalculus. he didn't use that much until he studied computer engineering.

In college, I was a computer science major and then switched to history. My Navy career only required a degree. When my military career came crashing to an end, I had the math and history background to become a teacher in both subjects. I then spent 4 years using my military experience to work for Army Recruiting.

You never know what you are going to be doing or what education you will need until it comes to pass.
 

Couchpotato

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Derp. What if the internet goes down?

Using your lack of logics, we should just ensure kids get a laptop with internet access and they will never need to learn a thing!
yes because I cant download one of those on my phone. And God knows I need to be able to calculate potential future earnings 24hrs a day 7 days a weeks without possible interruption. Or I could just wait for the internet to come back up. Unless you mean what happens if the internet goes down permanently then I don't think compound interest calculations will be of much importance.
 

flacaltenn

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I began collecting SS in 1993 and used the benefits to help retire the mortgage on my rental property. According to my SS records I have contributed about $72,000 to SS since 1956 when I first received wages subject to SS taxation. As of today I have received about $355,000 in monthly benefits, over a period of 20 years, most of which is in savings earning interest. So, in my case SS has given me a tidy sum annually to invest as I don't need it for living expenses.

That sounds about right -- but is not the "Universal" experience with Soc Sec. If in all those previous years, you couldn't afford to save -- it's LIKELY that you were NO WHERE NEAR the cap. Most of us arent. But the CAP on income subject to FICA is OUTRAGEOUSLY HIGH. Higher than probably any years income you received. So the ROInvestment for MOST PEOPLE is nowhere near your calculation.

For people making somewhere near $40K/year in the 80s or 90s -- THEIR math (if they LIVE til their 80s or 90s) on ROI kinda breaks even depending on whether they were SELF-EMPLOYED or not. In YOUR CASE -- if you were NOT self-employed -- YOUR EMPLOYER PAID a matching sum in YOUR NAME -- into the fund. Causing your 4 to 1 ROI to go to 2 to 1. And THAT came out your pocket in SOME FASHION as "overhead" on you being employed.

In my case, both wife and I were SELF-EMPLOYED for 25 years at the HEIGHT of our earnings. Our privilege was to PERSONALLY PAY BOTH 1/2s of the FICA tax on EACH of us. The system allows a little gaming in that planning for "survivors" benefits -- sometimes its good for one of couple working together to take a much LOWER salary. Thus, the SURVIVING spouse gets the LARGER SS payment.

MY ROI wont go positive until my early 90s. MOST professionals in the SAME BOAT because of the ugly HIGH salary caps that would have FDR crashing his wheelchair into the Treasury Bldg.

And when I look at what I COULD HAVE EARNED by just investing in an S&P or Russell 2000 total market fund -- I'd have EASILY twice as much to spend by my mid 80s.

They made SSec "pay as you go". Then they raise the FICA and caps sky high. It is NOT UNIVERSAL. It's now (as FDR SAID) -- "the dole in another form". Its INCOME REDISTRIBUTION in fact..
 

dblack

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Not by me.
All I am saying is that is what would end up happening.
That's what socialists say. They see it as inevitable. To be clear, I'm not calling you a socialist. But the idea that we must cater to the lowest common denominator is part of their plan.
The Democrats are always salivating for an opportunity to white night "unfortunate" groups to buy their votes.
And millions of people with no retirement and in financial ruin will make one helluva voting block for them to get their hands around.

Of course. The entire point of programs like these is vote buying. And later extortion, by throwing around the threat that they will be repealed.
 

AZrailwhale

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Sure you could have if the Government hadnt taken 12.2% of your earnings every month....




I dont know how much you made over your lifetime but let's assume you started out at 20k a year at age 18 and never got a raise worked until you were 68 and invested just what SS took from you and got a modest 6% return on your investment.

At 68 you would have had 850k in the bank.

The annual return on that money would be 50k. So, you would have had a 50k a year income without ever touching the principle. Tell me again how SS is better....

That same person gets less than 12k a year from SS...
The really amusing thing is that unlike the liberals defending the current SS plan, I was able to figure that out in my early twenties with a pencil and paper.
 

ThunderKiss1965

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SS isn't subject to the market forces that those investment are, forces that have ruined many retirement plans.
No but SS is subject to being raided by politicians that don't have to rely on the program like us lowly peasants do.
 

Woodznutz

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yes because I cant download one of those on my phone. And God knows I need to be able to calculate potential future earnings 24hrs a day 7 days a weeks without possible interruption. Or I could just wait for the internet to come back up. Unless you mean what happens if the internet goes down permanently then I don't think compound interest calculations will be of much importance.
You can calculate compound interest on...a calculator. ;)
 

Blues Man

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Something I said to my kids 100 times, and plenty of other folks as well - you have to look at things as they are, and not how you want them to be ideally.
Ideally - America would be like Monaco right now if SS was never instituted, and people instead used the money to invest and save.
But that is entirely idealistic and naive.
Reality is millions more would be in poverty because they blew every dime of it.
Still true today - even after 2008 - Americans have an abysmal savings rate. Give them more money - and they will just spend more and borrow even more.
Consider - the median average amount of saving 60 year old Americans have in 2020 is $6,400.
60 years old and only $6k in liquid assets. Insanity
Which is why you keep the contribution mandates and allow people to own their accounts so the fucking corrupt weasels in the corrupt fucking government can't get their grubby corrupt paws on that money
 

Woodznutz

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Sure you could have if the Government hadnt taken 12.2% of your earnings every month....




I dont know how much you made over your lifetime but let's assume you started out at 20k a year at age 18 and never got a raise worked until you were 68 and invested just what SS took from you and got a modest 6% return on your investment.

At 68 you would have had 850k in the bank.

The annual return on that money would be 50k. So, you would have had a 50k a year income without ever touching the principle. Tell me again how SS is better....

That same person gets less than 12k a year from SS...
Many such arguments begin with a totally unrealistic premise, that of supposed wage amounts. In 1958, the year I was 18, the average wage was $3851 per year. My own earnings that year was $2021. It would be decades before I earned $20,000 per year.
 
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