So, is there proof of INTELLIGENT DESIGN?

[ding]

I do not doubt intelligent design. Hek, this whole universe could be one big simulation.
But you lose me when you bring in bed time stories on morality made by ignorant desert people.

Don't you believe it is logical that not all behaviors lead to equal outcomes?

I think it is equally probable that different behaviors will lead to equal outcomes as it is that equal behaviors will lead to different outcomes.

Hitler committed suicide while Stalin died of natural causes. On the opposite side, both Obama and Trump, two very different people, were elected to the Presidency.

Not if you look at distributions.

I see lots of people trying to define the rule through exception as you are doing now.

 

[alang1216]

I do not doubt intelligent design. Hek, this whole universe could be one big simulation.
But you lose me when you bring in bed time stories on morality made by ignorant desert people.

Don't you believe it is logical that not all behaviors lead to equal outcomes?

I think it is equally probable that different behaviors will lead to equal outcomes as it is that equal behaviors will lead to different outcomes.

Hitler committed suicide while Stalin died of natural causes. On the opposite side, both Obama and Trump, two very different people, were elected to the Presidency.

Not if you look at distributions.

I see lots of people trying to define the rule through exception as you are doing now.

I look forward to learning about your distributions.

 

[ding]

I do not doubt intelligent design. Hek, this whole universe could be one big simulation.
But you lose me when you bring in bed time stories on morality made by ignorant desert people.

Don't you believe it is logical that not all behaviors lead to equal outcomes?

I think it is equally probable that different behaviors will lead to equal outcomes as it is that equal behaviors will lead to different outcomes.

Hitler committed suicide while Stalin died of natural causes. On the opposite side, both Obama and Trump, two very different people, were elected to the Presidency.

Not if you look at distributions.

I see lots of people trying to define the rule through exception as you are doing now.

I look forward to learning about your distributions.

Really? It's pretty self evident that in a logical universe there will be logical outcomes for cause and effect, right? Now it gets a little more complicated for human behaviors but as a rule these self evident logical outcomes will still hold true. For instance, let's take promiscuity versus abstinence, OK. If a woman is promiscuous wouldn't you expect her to be at a greater risk of unwanted pregnancies, sexually transmitted diseases and being a single parent mother than a woman who wasn't promiscuous? And isn't the belief that she would be at greater risk based upon logic and also statistics?

I can do this all day if you like. Your call.

 

[alang1216]

I do not doubt intelligent design. Hek, this whole universe could be one big simulation.
But you lose me when you bring in bed time stories on morality made by ignorant desert people.

Don't you believe it is logical that not all behaviors lead to equal outcomes?

I think it is equally probable that different behaviors will lead to equal outcomes as it is that equal behaviors will lead to different outcomes.

Hitler committed suicide while Stalin died of natural causes. On the opposite side, both Obama and Trump, two very different people, were elected to the Presidency.

Not if you look at distributions.

I see lots of people trying to define the rule through exception as you are doing now.

I look forward to learning about your distributions.

Really? It's pretty self evident that in a logical universe there will be logical outcomes for cause and effect, right? Now it gets a little more complicated for human behaviors but as a rule these self evident logical outcomes will still hold true. For instance, let's take promiscuity versus abstinence, OK. If a woman is promiscuous wouldn't you expect her to be at a greater risk of unwanted pregnancies, sexually transmitted diseases and being a single parent mother than a woman who wasn't promiscuous? And isn't the belief that she would be at greater risk based upon logic and also statistics?

I can do this all day if you like. Your call.

Not the argument you first used: "Don't you believe it is logical that not all behaviors lead to equal outcomes?".

I don't see anything there about statistics. It is certainly more likely that a promiscuous woman will become pregnant than a virgin but not all promiscuous women become pregnant.

 

[ding]

I do not doubt intelligent design. Hek, this whole universe could be one big simulation.
But you lose me when you bring in bed time stories on morality made by ignorant desert people.

Don't you believe it is logical that not all behaviors lead to equal outcomes?

I think it is equally probable that different behaviors will lead to equal outcomes as it is that equal behaviors will lead to different outcomes.

Hitler committed suicide while Stalin died of natural causes. On the opposite side, both Obama and Trump, two very different people, were elected to the Presidency.

Not if you look at distributions.

I see lots of people trying to define the rule through exception as you are doing now.

I look forward to learning about your distributions.

Really? It's pretty self evident that in a logical universe there will be logical outcomes for cause and effect, right? Now it gets a little more complicated for human behaviors but as a rule these self evident logical outcomes will still hold true. For instance, let's take promiscuity versus abstinence, OK. If a woman is promiscuous wouldn't you expect her to be at a greater risk of unwanted pregnancies, sexually transmitted diseases and being a single parent mother than a woman who wasn't promiscuous? And isn't the belief that she would be at greater risk based upon logic and also statistics?

I can do this all day if you like. Your call.

Not the argument you first used: "Don't you believe it is logical that not all behaviors lead to equal outcomes?".

I don't see anything there about statistics. It is certainly more likely that a promiscuous woman will become pregnant than a virgin but not all promiscuous women become pregnant.

Dude, it is exactly the argument I made. Not all behaviors lead to equal outcomes. Some behaviors lead to better outcomes (abstinence) and some behaviors lead to worse outcomes (promiscuity).

I could go down the list of successful and failed behaviors and make this exact same argument if you like. Or you could just agree with me that as a rule, not all behaviors lead to equal outcomes.

 

[ding]

I do not doubt intelligent design. Hek, this whole universe could be one big simulation.
But you lose me when you bring in bed time stories on morality made by ignorant desert people.

Don't you believe it is logical that not all behaviors lead to equal outcomes?

I think it is equally probable that different behaviors will lead to equal outcomes as it is that equal behaviors will lead to different outcomes.

Hitler committed suicide while Stalin died of natural causes. On the opposite side, both Obama and Trump, two very different people, were elected to the Presidency.

Not if you look at distributions.

I see lots of people trying to define the rule through exception as you are doing now.

I look forward to learning about your distributions.

Really? It's pretty self evident that in a logical universe there will be logical outcomes for cause and effect, right? Now it gets a little more complicated for human behaviors but as a rule these self evident logical outcomes will still hold true. For instance, let's take promiscuity versus abstinence, OK. If a woman is promiscuous wouldn't you expect her to be at a greater risk of unwanted pregnancies, sexually transmitted diseases and being a single parent mother than a woman who wasn't promiscuous? And isn't the belief that she would be at greater risk based upon logic and also statistics?

I can do this all day if you like. Your call.

Not the argument you first used: "Don't you believe it is logical that not all behaviors lead to equal outcomes?".

I don't see anything there about statistics. It is certainly more likely that a promiscuous woman will become pregnant than a virgin but not all promiscuous women become pregnant.

Have you ever heard of the concept of motivational based interviewing? Most major corporations use it when interviewing for jobs. They discovered that there were certain behaviors that people who produced results shared. And certain behaviors that people who didn't produce results shared. Specifically, accountability and lack of accountability. They found that it was easier to hire people who produced results than it was to train people to produce results. So they tailored their interviewing process to weed out those people whose demonstrated the behavior of external locus of control. So large corporations recognize that not all behaviors lead to equal outcomes. You can literally apply this same principle to any set of diametrically opposite behaviors.

 

[Newtonian]

What y

...humans = intelligent???!!!! hahahahhahahah
genocide/murders/rape/etc etc etc
wars/destruction/conflicts/etc
mistakes causing hundreds of lives

Not funny. Love is not based on intelligence alone. Satan is intelligent, and the history of man shows he is the ruler of this world as Jesus said:

John 14:30
I will not speak with you much more, for the ruler of the world+ is coming, and he has no hold on me.+

John 16:11
then concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.+

John 12:31
Now there is a judging of this world; now the ruler of this world+ will be cast out.+

1 John 5:19
We know that we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.+

2 Corinthians 4:4
among whom the god of this system of things+ has blinded the minds of the unbelievers,+ so that the illumination* of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God,+ might not shine through.+

On the positive side - Jehovah is love:

1 John 4:8
Whoever does not love has not come to know God, because God is love.+

yes--it is funny
and quoting the bible is not proof

What you noted is proof and is consistent with what Jesus taught.

Your points do point out the error of many religions who teach everything is going according to God's plan.

See Genesis 6:6 if you care.

there's no proof --you are babbling

Back to topic. Thank you!

Some of the proof was in the link I gave you. I take it you did not read any of the evidence in that link?

I'll repost the link to make it easier for you:

How Did Our Universe Get Here?—The Controversy — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

Note especially under the subheading "fine tuning."

To narrow the lines of evidence down (but feel free to pick any line of evidence from the above link);

The math ratios of the 4 primary forces of physics: gravity, electromagnetic, strong nuclear force, weak nuclear force.

 

[Newtonian]

I do not doubt intelligent design. Hek, this whole universe could be one big simulation.
But you lose me when you bring in bed time stories on morality made by ignorant desert people.

Don't you believe it is logical that not all behaviors lead to equal outcomes?

I think it is equally probable that different behaviors will lead to equal outcomes as it is that equal behaviors will lead to different outcomes.

Hitler committed suicide while Stalin died of natural causes. On the opposite side, both Obama and Trump, two very different people, were elected to the Presidency.

Not if you look at distributions.

I see lots of people trying to define the rule through exception as you are doing now.

I look forward to learning about your distributions.

I'm not sure why ding changed the subject from probability and statistics. I assume (but am not sure) that ding had reference to chemical reaction product proportions (aka distributions). For example, in the famous Miller experiment using spark discharge on an initial environment of Methane (CH4), Ammonia (NH3), Hydrogen (H2) and water (H2O) there were 'distributions' which are now predictable because of the number of trials/experiments of a similar nature. You NEVER get proteins from such experiments because of the law of large numbers.

You do get predictable chemical reaction product proportions - for example, the primary product is always formic acid, and the other molecules like amino acids are also in predictable proportions. The amino acids Glycine and Alanine always predominate over the few other amino acids used in proteins in this type of experiment. Further - most of the amino acids produced are NOT used in proteins. And there are other significant products that are not amino acids that were produced in predictable proportions.

Bottom line - the law of large numbers states that the standard deviation reduces with the number of trials and number of steps involved such that the outcome will be very close to predicted probability.

Some argue that any result can come from repeated rolls of dice - that is not the case when many rolls of dice occur - you will then get 1/6th sixes for example. But some argue that any one sequence is possible given enough trials. While true (sort of) it ignores the fact that only 1 step is involved in each roll of dice and only 6 different results are possible which each roll of dice.

That is the law of large numbers is weaker in that case since each result involves only 1 step and each result is independent of the next result. The more steps the stronger the law of large numbers applies.

With the synthesis of proteins many steps are involved, each step is not independent of the other steps, and there are far more than 6 possible results in Miller type experiments.

Chemical reaction product proportions are an important example of the result of the law of large numbers.

It is why scientists use specific starting ingredients in a specific environment to produce the desired chemical reaction product and they are not surprised by the results!

 

[anynameyouwish]

If our existence was but a coincidence, what might be the odds of such a coincidence?

somewhere

floating in a higher dimension

far beyond our technology to detect

t5ey3i, son of ty763 and ty743, was intently gazing into a bowl......


"Hey MOM! POP!" he ejaculated "my science experiments' science experiment just created life!"

 

[alang1216]

Dude, it is exactly the argument I made. Not all behaviors lead to equal outcomes. Some behaviors lead to better outcomes (abstinence) and some behaviors lead to worse outcomes (promiscuity).

And I agreed with you. I just added that similar behaviors can lead to very different outcomes.

 

[harmonica]

What y

...humans = intelligent???!!!! hahahahhahahah
genocide/murders/rape/etc etc etc
wars/destruction/conflicts/etc
mistakes causing hundreds of lives

Not funny. Love is not based on intelligence alone. Satan is intelligent, and the history of man shows he is the ruler of this world as Jesus said:

John 14:30
I will not speak with you much more, for the ruler of the world+ is coming, and he has no hold on me.+

John 16:11
then concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.+

John 12:31
Now there is a judging of this world; now the ruler of this world+ will be cast out.+

1 John 5:19
We know that we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.+

2 Corinthians 4:4
among whom the god of this system of things+ has blinded the minds of the unbelievers,+ so that the illumination* of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God,+ might not shine through.+

On the positive side - Jehovah is love:

1 John 4:8
Whoever does not love has not come to know God, because God is love.+

yes--it is funny
and quoting the bible is not proof

What you noted is proof and is consistent with what Jesus taught.

Your points do point out the error of many religions who teach everything is going according to God's plan.

See Genesis 6:6 if you care.

there's no proof --you are babbling

Back to topic. Thank you!

Some of the proof was in the link I gave you. I take it you did not read any of the evidence in that link?

I'll repost the link to make it easier for you:

How Did Our Universe Get Here?—The Controversy — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

Note especially under the subheading "fine tuning."

To narrow the lines of evidence down (but feel free to pick any line of evidence from the above link);

The math ratios of the 4 primary forces of physics: gravity, electromagnetic, strong nuclear force, weak nuclear force.

1. we were not talking about the Universe, but evolution
2.no one knows anything of ''who'' /how/etc the universe was created
3.so god designed animals and humans to be imperfect? = nonsensical

 

[Newtonian]

What y

...humans = intelligent???!!!! hahahahhahahah
genocide/murders/rape/etc etc etc
wars/destruction/conflicts/etc
mistakes causing hundreds of lives

Not funny. Love is not based on intelligence alone. Satan is intelligent, and the history of man shows he is the ruler of this world as Jesus said:

John 14:30
I will not speak with you much more, for the ruler of the world+ is coming, and he has no hold on me.+

John 16:11
then concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.+

John 12:31
Now there is a judging of this world; now the ruler of this world+ will be cast out.+

1 John 5:19
We know that we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.+

2 Corinthians 4:4
among whom the god of this system of things+ has blinded the minds of the unbelievers,+ so that the illumination* of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God,+ might not shine through.+

On the positive side - Jehovah is love:

1 John 4:8
Whoever does not love has not come to know God, because God is love.+

yes--it is funny
and quoting the bible is not proof

What you noted is proof and is consistent with what Jesus taught.

Your points do point out the error of many religions who teach everything is going according to God's plan.

See Genesis 6:6 if you care.

there's no proof --you are babbling

Back to topic. Thank you!

Some of the proof was in the link I gave you. I take it you did not read any of the evidence in that link?

I'll repost the link to make it easier for you:

How Did Our Universe Get Here?—The Controversy — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

Note especially under the subheading "fine tuning."

To narrow the lines of evidence down (but feel free to pick any line of evidence from the above link);

The math ratios of the 4 primary forces of physics: gravity, electromagnetic, strong nuclear force, weak nuclear force.

1. we were not talking about the Universe, but evolution
2.no one knows anything of ''who'' /how/etc the universe was created
3.so god designed animals and humans to be imperfect? = nonsensical

Who is we?

I was posting on thread title. First you say I posted no evidence - then you say no one knows anything about it.

The truth is that while we do not know everything, we do know allot about the fine tuning of our universe that made the creation of life as we know it possible.

I will give you another chance to examine the evidence I posted.

 

[harmonica]

What y

...humans = intelligent???!!!! hahahahhahahah
genocide/murders/rape/etc etc etc
wars/destruction/conflicts/etc
mistakes causing hundreds of lives

Not funny. Love is not based on intelligence alone. Satan is intelligent, and the history of man shows he is the ruler of this world as Jesus said:

John 14:30
I will not speak with you much more, for the ruler of the world+ is coming, and he has no hold on me.+

John 16:11
then concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.+

John 12:31
Now there is a judging of this world; now the ruler of this world+ will be cast out.+

1 John 5:19
We know that we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.+

2 Corinthians 4:4
among whom the god of this system of things+ has blinded the minds of the unbelievers,+ so that the illumination* of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God,+ might not shine through.+

On the positive side - Jehovah is love:

1 John 4:8
Whoever does not love has not come to know God, because God is love.+

yes--it is funny
and quoting the bible is not proof

What you noted is proof and is consistent with what Jesus taught.

Your points do point out the error of many religions who teach everything is going according to God's plan.

See Genesis 6:6 if you care.

there's no proof --you are babbling

Back to topic. Thank you!

Some of the proof was in the link I gave you. I take it you did not read any of the evidence in that link?

I'll repost the link to make it easier for you:

How Did Our Universe Get Here?—The Controversy — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

Note especially under the subheading "fine tuning."

To narrow the lines of evidence down (but feel free to pick any line of evidence from the above link);

The math ratios of the 4 primary forces of physics: gravity, electromagnetic, strong nuclear force, weak nuclear force.

1. we were not talking about the Universe, but evolution
2.no one knows anything of ''who'' /how/etc the universe was created
3.so god designed animals and humans to be imperfect? = nonsensical

Who is we?

I was posting on thread title. First you say I posted no evidence - then you say no one knows anything about it.

The truth is that while we do not know everything, we do know allot about the fine tuning of our universe that made the creation of life as we know it possible.

I will give you another chance to examine the evidence I posted.

--but you haven't proven there is a god yet!!!

 

[Newtonian]

d

What y

...humans = intelligent???!!!! hahahahhahahah
genocide/murders/rape/etc etc etc
wars/destruction/conflicts/etc
mistakes causing hundreds of lives

Not funny. Love is not based on intelligence alone. Satan is intelligent, and the history of man shows he is the ruler of this world as Jesus said:

John 14:30
I will not speak with you much more, for the ruler of the world+ is coming, and he has no hold on me.+

John 16:11
then concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.+

John 12:31
Now there is a judging of this world; now the ruler of this world+ will be cast out.+

1 John 5:19
We know that we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.+

2 Corinthians 4:4
among whom the god of this system of things+ has blinded the minds of the unbelievers,+ so that the illumination* of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God,+ might not shine through.+

On the positive side - Jehovah is love:

1 John 4:8
Whoever does not love has not come to know God, because God is love.+

yes--it is funny
and quoting the bible is not proof

What you noted is proof and is consistent with what Jesus taught.

Your points do point out the error of many religions who teach everything is going according to God's plan.

See Genesis 6:6 if you care.

there's no proof --you are babbling

Back to topic. Thank you!

Some of the proof was in the link I gave you. I take it you did not read any of the evidence in that link?

I'll repost the link to make it easier for you:

How Did Our Universe Get Here?—The Controversy — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

Note especially under the subheading "fine tuning."

To narrow the lines of evidence down (but feel free to pick any line of evidence from the above link);

The math ratios of the 4 primary forces of physics: gravity, electromagnetic, strong nuclear force, weak nuclear force.

1. we were not talking about the Universe, but evolution
2.no one knows anything of ''who'' /how/etc the universe was created
3.so god designed animals and humans to be imperfect? = nonsensical

Who is we?

I was posting on thread title. First you say I posted no evidence - then you say no one knows anything about it.

The truth is that while we do not know everything, we do know allot about the fine tuning of our universe that made the creation of life as we know it possible.

I will give you another chance to examine the evidence I posted.

--but you haven't proven there is a god yet!!!

Not to you - agreed. Perhaps that is because you are not willing to examine the evidence!

Here is one way to discern God's power (just one attribute):

Romans 1:20
For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made,+ even his eternal power+ and Godship,+ so that they are inexcusable.+

The study of "the things made" involves all branches of scientific study - I cannot post evidence from all branches of scientific study so I have chosen to post on 3 branches of study for starters:

1. Probability and statistics including the law of large numbers.

2. Physics including the math ratios of the 4 primary forces of physics: gravity, electromagnetic, strong and weak nuclear forces.

3. Astronomy including the amount of energy/power that went into the creation of our universe and specifically (so far) the law of conservation of matter and energy including the formula E=Mc^2.

Or are you one of those that have blind faith that our universe came from nothing with no cause - which, btw, also violates the scientific observation of cause and effect?

Again the link I posted:

How Did Our Universe Get Here?—The Controversy — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

To be specific - how precisely fine tuned is the ratio of gravity to the electromagnetic force?

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Irreducible complexity.

A hilariously wrong line of argument that signals an abject ignorance of how evolution works.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

If our existence was but a coincidence,

See how you have to load your arguments from the beginning? You have to prop up low hanging fruit for yourself, because your arguments are very weak sauce.

Coincidence? No. Is the spheroid shape of the stars "coincidence"? No. Selection is not random. Dude, I told you, you should probably never, ever talk about this subject again. You literally know less than nothing about any of this. That's not a joke.... you know nothing factual, and all the things you think you know are wrong. You actually possess net NEGATIVE knowledge on this topic. It would take years of coaching just to coach you up to the knowledge level of a newborn baby on this topic.

You, being a grown man, should feel embarrassed of that.

 

[ding]

Dude, it is exactly the argument I made. Not all behaviors lead to equal outcomes. Some behaviors lead to better outcomes (abstinence) and some behaviors lead to worse outcomes (promiscuity).

And I agreed with you. I just added that similar behaviors can lead to very different outcomes.

We aren’t talking about similar behaviors.

Standards exist for a reason. You may not realize it but you are arguing against standards. That’s illogical.

 

[Newtonian]

OK, I'll be specific - again from:

How Did Our Universe Get Here?—The Controversy — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

"Equally vital is the intensity of the electromagnetic force in relation to the other three. For example, some physicists figure this force to be 10,000,- 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 (1040) times that of gravity. It might seem a small change to that number to add one more zero (10^41). Yet that would mean that gravity is proportionally weaker, and Dr. Reinhard Breuer comments on the resulting situation: “With lower gravity the stars would be smaller, and the pressure of gravity in their interiors would not drive the temperature high enough for nuclear fusion reactions to get under way: the sun would be unable to shine.” You can imagine what that would mean for us!

What if gravity were stronger proportionately, so that the number had only 39 zeros (10^39)? “With just this tiny adjustment,” continues Breuer, “a star like the sun would find its life expectancy sharply reduced.” And other scientists consider the fine-tuning to be even more precise."

So, if not by intelligent design - how did this ratio (10^40) rather than 10^39 or 10^41 get selected?

 

[LittleNipper]

Man isn't the designer and Creator of the Universe. Man is presently in a fallen state and from the time of Adam has been moving further away from GOD. Order cannot originate from disorder.

for that to be true, there has to be a god first

I've given you plenty of proof that GOD must exist. You simply have an ulterior motive to pretend that HE doesn't. You have not presented proof to the contrary.

 

[LittleNipper]

"So, is there proof of INTELLIGENT DESIGN?"

No.

ABSOLUTELY! There is proof. Without GOD everything would be permanently formless and void. All design has form.