Simple Question: Did we (USA) win Iraq War?

[CurveLight]

Mark my words!!! The SECOND we leave Iraq the MAJORITY will BRUTALIZE the MINORITY. They will become second class citizens and there will be mass roundups and the "RAPE" rooms Saddam had will look TAME by comparison.

This is usually the ubiquitous justification for any occupation that has run its course. It has never made much sense.

 

[CurveLight]

I enlisted in the US Navy at age 19, in 1967. YOU? FYI, in 1967 our nation was engaged in armed conflict in the Republic of Vietnam, another war of choice brought forth by the same stinking thinking that lead us to invade Iraq.
When I've visited the Vietnam Memorial Wall in The District, I don't simply see names, I see the faces of guys I served with, went to schools with, grew up with and who died in vain.
My guess is you're a typical chicken hawk, and I'm sure as hell if we were toe to toe you'd call me Sir.

In 1967 I was five years old. I don't need some guy with an Agent Orange haircut and 1000 yd stare who probably shoveled shit in the repple deppel somewhere lecturing me on anything. I might call you sir if you were spending money at my shop. But since all you do is talk big I'd probably be telling you to get your sorry overage ass out my door and stop wasting my time.

Actually you're still five years old; and my overage ass is still supporting a 6'2", 235 pound man. You would call me Sir as you peed your pants, sonny.
But, I digress. In 1980 you were old enough to join the frey, you could have invaded Panama or Granada, if you were not a yellow belly chicken hawk coward.

The emotions are understandable but the question must be answered. What is more important to you? Parroting embarrassing name calling or the message? We cannot help the debate against nation building by falling into the ancient trap of distraction.

 

[The Rabbi]

In 1967 I was five years old. I don't need some guy with an Agent Orange haircut and 1000 yd stare who probably shoveled shit in the repple deppel somewhere lecturing me on anything. I might call you sir if you were spending money at my shop. But since all you do is talk big I'd probably be telling you to get your sorry overage ass out my door and stop wasting my time.

Actually you're still five years old; and my overage ass is still supporting a 6'2", 235 pound man. You would call me Sir as you peed your pants, sonny.
But, I digress. In 1980 you were old enough to join the frey, you could have invaded Panama or Granada, if you were not a yellow belly chicken hawk coward.

The emotions are understandable but the question must be answered. What is more important to you? Parroting embarrassing name calling or the message? We cannot help the debate against nation building by falling into the ancient trap of distraction.

When Clinton went into Somalia and Serbia I didn't hear much from the Dums on the dangers of nation building.

 

[CurveLight]

Actually you're still five years old; and my overage ass is still supporting a 6'2", 235 pound man. You would call me Sir as you peed your pants, sonny.
But, I digress. In 1980 you were old enough to join the frey, you could have invaded Panama or Granada, if you were not a yellow belly chicken hawk coward.

The emotions are understandable but the question must be answered. What is more important to you? Parroting embarrassing name calling or the message? We cannot help the debate against nation building by falling into the ancient trap of distraction.

When Clinton went into Somalia and Serbia I didn't hear much from the Dums on the dangers of nation building.

Can you explain how that qualifies as nation building?

 

[The Rabbi]

The emotions are understandable but the question must be answered. What is more important to you? Parroting embarrassing name calling or the message? We cannot help the debate against nation building by falling into the ancient trap of distraction.

When Clinton went into Somalia and Serbia I didn't hear much from the Dums on the dangers of nation building.

Can you explain how that qualifies as nation building?

Umm, can you explain why it isnt? In both cases we were interfering in the internal affairs of another country where order had broken down in order to impose stability. Ditto Haiti, as I think of it.
This was a big deal in the 2000 election. I remember Bush pledging he wouldn't do that (different times).

 

[CurveLight]

When Clinton went into Somalia and Serbia I didn't hear much from the Dums on the dangers of nation building.

Can you explain how that qualifies as nation building?

Umm, can you explain why it isnt? In both cases we were interfering in the internal affairs of another country where order had broken down in order to impose stability. Ditto Haiti, as I think of it.
This was a big deal in the 2000 election. I remember Bush pledging he wouldn't do that (different times).

Where I come from the speaker of the claim owns the responsibility of supporting said claim. Once again, can you please explain how that qualifies under nation building?

 

[HUGGY]

Actually you're still five years old; and my overage ass is still supporting a 6'2", 235 pound man. You would call me Sir as you peed your pants, sonny.
But, I digress. In 1980 you were old enough to join the frey, you could have invaded Panama or Granada, if you were not a yellow belly chicken hawk coward.

The emotions are understandable but the question must be answered. What is more important to you? Parroting embarrassing name calling or the message? We cannot help the debate against nation building by falling into the ancient trap of distraction.

When Clinton went into Somalia and Serbia I didn't hear much from the Dums on the dangers of nation building.

There is a big difference between nation building and trying to help prevent geniocide.

What the hell is wrong with you? Do you really lack humanity on this scale?

Astounding!

 

[CurveLight]

The emotions are understandable but the question must be answered. What is more important to you? Parroting embarrassing name calling or the message? We cannot help the debate against nation building by falling into the ancient trap of distraction.

When Clinton went into Somalia and Serbia I didn't hear much from the Dums on the dangers of nation building.

There is a big difference between nation building and trying to help prevent geniocide.

What the hell is wrong with you? Do you really lack humanity on this scale?

Astounding!

He made the mistake of assuming others would simply take the bait and probably didn't expect to be asked to explain how those events fall under the definition of nation building.

 

[foggedinn]

Mark my words!!! The SECOND we leave Iraq the MAJORITY will BRUTALIZE the MINORITY. They will become second class citizens and there will be mass roundups and the "RAPE" rooms Saddam had will look TAME by comparison.

This is probably true, yet we will leave Iraq. Bush the elder, when he gave his reasons for not going to Baghdad and removing Saddam in the first Gulf War, said there was no viable exit strategy. It was true then, and it's true now. We will leave behind an unholy mess. It was unavoidable from the moment we chose to depose Saddam.

If we won, it was a pyrrhic victory.

 

[rdean]

Mark my words!!! The SECOND we leave Iraq the MAJORITY will BRUTALIZE the MINORITY. They will become second class citizens and there will be mass roundups and the "RAPE" rooms Saddam had will look TAME by comparison.

This is probably true, yet we will leave Iraq. Bush the elder, when he gave his reasons for not going to Baghdad and removing Saddam in the first Gulf War, said there was no viable exit strategy. It was true then, and it's true now. We will leave behind an unholy mess. It was unavoidable from the moment we chose to depose Saddam.

If we won, it was a pyrrhic victory.

Actually, "unholy mess" was unavoidable once George Bush was elected president and Republicans became the majority party. There is not a single American institution that they haven't heavily damaged and brought disgrace. We only hear about the big ones, the Justice Department, the EPA, the CIA, but all of the smaller ones also suffered.

 

[Cold Fusion38]

Mark my words!!! The SECOND we leave Iraq the MAJORITY will BRUTALIZE the MINORITY. They will become second class citizens and there will be mass roundups and the "RAPE" rooms Saddam had will look TAME by comparison.

This is usually the ubiquitous justification for any occupation that has run its course. It has never made much sense.

REALLY? Ethnic and religious CLEANSING has not made much sense? Well I agree but when you consider that MOST religions are STEEPED IN BLOOD then you may see my point.

 

[CurveLight]

Mark my words!!! The SECOND we leave Iraq the MAJORITY will BRUTALIZE the MINORITY. They will become second class citizens and there will be mass roundups and the "RAPE" rooms Saddam had will look TAME by comparison.

This is probably true, yet we will leave Iraq. Bush the elder, when he gave his reasons for not going to Baghdad and removing Saddam in the first Gulf War, said there was no viable exit strategy. It was true then, and it's true now. We will leave behind an unholy mess. It was unavoidable from the moment we chose to depose Saddam.

If we won, it was a pyrrhic victory.

Actually, "unholy mess" was unavoidable once George Bush was elected president and Republicans became the majority party. There is not a single American institution that they haven't heavily damaged and brought disgrace. We only hear about the big ones, the Justice Department, the EPA, the CIA, but all of the smaller ones also suffered.

What's up with the shrill of dyed in the wool partisanship?

 

[CrusaderFrank]

How different the world would be had anti-Semitic Jimmy Carter and the Dems not given Islamists and Jihadist state sponsorship in Iran?

How much better would we be even today had Clinton holdover at State not sabotaged our efforts to bring pressure on Iran and assist the uprising?

 

[CurveLight]

Mark my words!!! The SECOND we leave Iraq the MAJORITY will BRUTALIZE the MINORITY. They will become second class citizens and there will be mass roundups and the "RAPE" rooms Saddam had will look TAME by comparison.

This is usually the ubiquitous justification for any occupation that has run its course. It has never made much sense.

REALLY? Ethnic and religious CLEANSING has not made much sense? Well I agree but when you consider that MOST religions are STEEPED IN BLOOD then you may see my point.

When Britain invaded Iraq a hundred years ago they gave many of the same justifications. It worked so well we are repeating the same process. Glorious students of History!

 

[CurveLight]

How different the world would be had anti-Semitic Jimmy Carter and the Dems not given Islamists and Jihadist state sponsorship in Iran?

How much better would we be even today had Clinton holdover at State not sabotaged our efforts to bring pressure on Iran and assist the uprising?

Pretty funny in contrast to the post above this one. How was Carter anti-Semitic? How can you have such disdain for America you would rather exploit our freedoms to falsely blame some group instead of using the freedoms to try and solve issues? Or is this bitch session mode more appealing because it means all you have to do is type? The alternative is scary.....get out and do some actual work.

 

[CurveLight]

How different the world would be had anti-Semitic Jimmy Carter and the Dems not given Islamists and Jihadist state sponsorship in Iran?

How much better would we be even today had Clinton holdover at State not sabotaged our efforts to bring pressure on Iran and assist the uprising?

Pretty funny in contrast to the post above this one. How was Carter anti-Semitic? How can you have such disdain for America you would rather exploit our freedoms to falsely blame some group instead of using the freedoms to try and solve issues? Or is this bitch session mode more appealing because it means all you have to do is type? The alternative is scary.....get out and do some actual work.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Actually you're still five years old; and my overage ass is still supporting a 6'2", 235 pound man. You would call me Sir as you peed your pants, sonny.
But, I digress. In 1980 you were old enough to join the frey, you could have invaded Panama or Granada, if you were not a yellow belly chicken hawk coward.

The emotions are understandable but the question must be answered. What is more important to you? Parroting embarrassing name calling or the message? We cannot help the debate against nation building by falling into the ancient trap of distraction.

When Clinton went into Somalia and Serbia I didn't hear much from the Dums on the dangers of nation building.

Clinton tried to defend the food and medicine given to the Somali people from being ripped off by criminals. That's not nation building.
Bombing, invading, occupying and putting a puppet government in power in a soverign nation is nation building. See Iraq for an example.

 

[The Rabbi]

The emotions are understandable but the question must be answered. What is more important to you? Parroting embarrassing name calling or the message? We cannot help the debate against nation building by falling into the ancient trap of distraction.

When Clinton went into Somalia and Serbia I didn't hear much from the Dums on the dangers of nation building.

Clinton tried to defend the food and medicine given to the Somali people from being ripped off by criminals. That's not nation building.
Bombing, invading, occupying and putting a puppet government in power in a soverign nation is nation building. See Iraq for an example.

Or Haiti.

 

[Varth Dader]

Iraq War “To Do” List
1. Defeat Iraqi Military
2. Overrun Baghdad
3. Capture Saddam
4. Begin Martial Law
5. Defeat Insurgency
6. Facilitate Elections
7. Establish New Currency
8. Establish New Constitution
9. Establish Fair Markets
10. Rebuild infrastructure

10 for 10. Chalk it up for the Good Guys.

Is that how you define winning? Going through that to do list?

I think you will know the war was won when it is obvious that it was (say in 10 years of a stable Iraqi democracy). In the meantime, I think it's too early to judge.

By the way, the world isn't binary, maybe you should allow for a third option (or more), along the lines of "outlook looks good", "outlook looks bleak", "no, but we haven't lost either", etc.

Binary is only good for computers.

 

[CurveLight]

When Clinton went into Somalia and Serbia I didn't hear much from the Dums on the dangers of nation building.

Clinton tried to defend the food and medicine given to the Somali people from being ripped off by criminals. That's not nation building.
Bombing, invading, occupying and putting a puppet government in power in a soverign nation is nation building. See Iraq for an example.

Or Haiti.

You still haven't explained how our actions in Somalia and Serbia qualify as nation building. Are you really trying to hide the current nation building in iraq and afghanistan behind those events?