Should the US defend Taiwan from China?

Should they?

  • Yes

  • No


Results are only viewable after voting.
And just like that, the right is all for yet another foreign war.
The right is for whatever Fox News and Clear Channel tell them to be for, just like the left is for whatever CNN, MSNBC, FB, and Democracy Now tell them they have to be for.


. . . and lord help the nation if all these sources tell the nation's people the same things. :rolleyes:

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The right is for whatever Fox News and Clear Channel tell them to be for, just like the left is for whatever CNN, MSNBC, FB, and Democracy Now tell them they have to be for.
Add OAN and FB to the right as well and I will agree. We the People have become We the Lemmings.
 
fuck them all, let them fight their own battles. ever notice all the fat ass cigar-chewing assholes have no problem sending some young kid into battle as long as it is not them or their family. And I do not give a shit that armed forces are still voluntary.
 
Add OAN and FB to the right as well and I will agree. We the People have become We the Lemmings.
Oh, I thought about OAN and Newsmax. .. I just didn't think they have the viewership and reach that the others do. I don't much pay that close attention to manufactured culture anymore. Maybe they reach as much as Democracy Now. What do I know?


And yeah, you are right. I was listening to NPR that the most visited page on FB is Shapiro's page. I was sort of stunned by that. I went there, and a good 40 percent of it, is trolling, which, to his credit, he encourages. I can't see a big woke personality on the left doing that. In the old days, sure. Carlin or Lenny Bruce would have loved that sort of shit, but now? No way.

It is a very interesting page. OTH. . . I am not really sure it is good for the national conversation or national moral. Maybe it is, it is a good way to keep freedom and independent thought alive.

As Voltaire is attributed to have said~

‘I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it,’

That is what makes this place, USMB, one of the best places on the web. IMHO.
 
fuck them all, let them fight their own battles. ever notice all the fat ass cigar-chewing assholes have no problem sending some young kid into battle as long as it is not them or their family. And I do not give a shit that armed forces are still voluntary.
Sounds like a post ripped right out of the pre WWII era when Germany was unopposed and conquering nations left and right.


Doing nothing just encourages and feeds the Nazis and CCP what they want to believe so they can keep gobbling up neighbors. Appeasing bullies only encourages them and at some point someone must
take action and it doesn't even have to be military.

But it must be something significant.
 
China is a bigger threat to the US than Russia, though the US public doesn't agree, but i can explain that

the macho right wing conservative Russians are easier to demonize than non-macho left wing liberal Chinese wusses
 
China is a bigger threat to the US than Russia, though the US public doesn't agree, but i can explain that

the macho right wing conservative Russians are easier to demonize than non-macho left wing liberal Chinese wusses
A referendum? They could vote on it themselves.

If liberty and equality are chiefly to be found in democracy, they will be best attained when all persons alike share in government to the utmost.--Aristotle
 
The real question is not "Should the US defend Taiwan".....
but rather

"Can the US defend Taiwan?"

America has made China the worlds sole manufacturing and Research and Development global superpower.

From this point forward America's military capabilities will fall further and further behind China's. While Americans spend their time infighting over gay rights, abortion and diversity......China's future generation concentrates on higher education and advancing the sciences and technology.

The future is crystal clear.
 
China would go to war over that or even if Taiwan declared their independence China says it will go to war if they do that.
Taiwan is already independent. China has no control over it. It's a part of China in nameonly. They are the original government of China. They relocated to Taiwan after the communist takeover, and The PRChas never been in control there. They claim it's part of China and Taiwan claims to be the legit government for all of China but it's all talk.
 
Taiwan is already independent. China has no control over it. It's a part of China in nameonly. They are the original government of China. They relocated to Taiwan after the communist takeover, and The PRChas never been in control there. They claim it's part of China and Taiwan claims to be the legit government for all of China but it's all talk.
I wouldn't say they have no control over it, they try to get some leverage and have influence over certain politicians and other figures like some rich people.
 
TAIWAN WAS A PART OF CHINA. IT WAS CEDED BACK TO CHINA AFTER WWII BY THE JAPANESE. IT IS CHINESE TERRITORY.
Sort of, but not exactly. There are native Taiwanese people. They are not Chinese, but related to Polynesians/Micronesians. They're a minority now though.
 
Sort of, but not exactly. There are native Taiwanese people. They are not Chinese, but related to Polynesians/Micronesians. They're a minority now though.
Formosa, is Chinese...it is Chinese territory.

It was traditionally Chinese, it had been recognized along with Hong Kong, and Macau as strictly Chinese.

It was lost to Imperial Japan but was given back to the nation of China after WWII.

IT IS CHINESE.

Talk of native rights and property is a useless diversion.

One could say the exact same thing about the Ryukyu chain of islands and their native populations.

But you won't hear ANY of that because those islands are recognized as Japanese territory.
 
Formosa, is Chinese...it is Chinese territory.

It was traditionally Chinese, it had been recognized along with Hong Kong, and Macau as strictly Chinese.

It was lost to Imperial Japan but was given back to the nation of China after WWII.

IT IS CHINESE.

Talk of native rights and property is a useless diversion.

One could say the exact same thing about the Ryukyu chain of islands and their native populations.

But you won't hear ANY of that because those islands are recognized as Japanese territory.
The people that live on the Island of Taiwan do not deny rhey are chinese....but it is not a question of being chinese or not being chinese....it is a question of being a communist or not being a communist.....they do not want to be communist.
 
The people that live on the Island of Taiwan do not deny rhey are chinese....but it is not a question of being chinese or not being chinese....it is a question of being a communist or not being a communist.....they do not want to be communist.
I am indifferent to what they 'want'.

The TRUTH is that the land belongs to the nation of China.

I want a Ferrari...I can go get in one, drive off, and call it mine but the judge will not care, as he shouldn't.

A thief by any other name.
 
I am indifferent to what they 'want'.

The TRUTH is that the land belongs to the nation of China.

I want a Ferrari...I can go get in one, drive off, and call it mine but the judge will not care, as he shouldn't.

A thief by any other name.

The truth is:

You do not know the history of the Island of Taiwan

Japan never admitted that “Taiwan was returned to China.”​

'Taiwan was already ceded to Japan before the end of the Qing dynasty. From China’s perspective, it was an “unequal treaty.” However, in terms of international law, it was a legal transfer of territory. At the same time, recognizing the legality of territorial transfer doesn’t erase the possibility of returning such territory legally again.

In the case of Hong Kong, for example, Kowloon and Hong Kong island were both ceded to Britain in perpetuity. Yet the Sino-British Joint Declaration stated that the PRC would legally repossess the entire Hong Kong.

After the Second World War, Taiwan should have been returned to the ROC as well. Practically speaking, the ROC has indeed reclaimed Taiwan. But in terms of international law, whether Taiwan has been returned remains in an “incomplete” status.

Three documents — the Cairo Declaration, the Potsdam Declaration, and the Japanese Instrument of Surrender — have determined that Taiwan must be returned to China after WWII. However, each of these documents standing alone is insufficient to prove that Taiwan must be returned. We have to examine all three together to clarify the logic.

The Cairo Declaration was the only document that mentioned: “all the territories Japan has stolen from the Chinese, such as Manchuria, Formosa, and The Pescadores, shall be restored to the Republic of China.” But it was not signed by Japan — it was more like a statement of political will. The 1945 Potsdam Declaration was signed between the Allies, and it stated that Japan must accept the Cairo Declaration, but again it was not a treaty signed off by Japan.

The 1945 Japanese Instrument of Surrender was signed between Japan’s representatives and the Allies, officially the end of the war. Ironically, this treaty did not mention the Cairo Declaration or Taiwan. It had only stated Japan’s acceptance of the conditions outlined in the Potsdam Declaration, indirectly linking it to the initial Cairo Declaration.

Despite all the twists and turns, Taiwan was “supposed” to be returned to the ROC.

Legally speaking, however, the above-mentioned documents were simply “letters of intent.” Although they have a certain extent of legal authority, only an official peace treaty signed by Japan can resolve Taiwan’s status legally. Unfortunately, the Cold War quickly took place and the peace treaty with Japan was not finalized until 1951, yet the KMT had lost the civil war and retreated to Taiwan in 1949. There was no consensus on which government represented “China,” therefore neither the PRC nor the ROC attended the conference.

In the end, Japan only declared to “surrender” Taiwan in the 1951 Treaty of San Francisco, rather than “returning” Taiwan. Next, under the U.S. permission, Japan decided to choose the KMT-ruled ROC as “the sole legal government of China” and signed the Treaty of Taipei with the ROC government. In Article 2 of the Treaty of Taipei, both parties agreed that “Japan has renounced all right, title and claim to Taiwan (Formosa) and Penghu (the Pescadores) as well as the Spratly Islands and the Paracel Islands,” according to the San Francisco Treaty.

Both the PRC and ROC have emphasized that the Treaty of Taipei meant Taiwan has been returned to China. The logic was, in terms of international law, Taiwan was only relevant to China-Japan relations without a third party claiming sovereignty over Taiwan — so it was redundant to reiterate the returned party in the treaty. But it leaves a loophole: Will Taiwan still have the right to self-determination when Japan had only surrendered the territory? Within the U.N. list of "non-self-governing territories," which are subject to the decolonization process, Taiwan was not included. In other words, Taiwan was already decolonized, but its status was still incomplete.

Until 1972, Japan signed the Japan-China Joint Communiqué with Beijing to establish their diplomatic relations. In this agreement, the Japanese government “fully understood and respected” the position of the PRC that Taiwan was an inalienable territory of the PRC, but note that Japan never used the term “recognize” or even “acknowledge.”

At the same time, Japan insisted on complying with the Potsdam Declaration, which implied that Japan acknowledged Taiwan was already returned to the ROC. Also, the Japanese government refused to call the Treaty of Taipei illegal or invalid after it was abrogated and declined to “surrender” Taiwan again. The Japanese argued that Japan had already “surrendered” Taiwan once in the 1950s, therefore it cannot be done again. But these arguments did not help to clarify Taiwan’s international legal status.'


Taiwan is the Real China

The Republic of China was never conquered by the communists....they fled to the Island of Formosa.

The mainland is occupied by communist usurpers hence their obsession with Taiwan....they know to be legal they must conquer Taiwan where the real legal government of China resides.

I mentioned earlier that I find Taipei to be a great deal more Chinese than anywhere I’ve visited in mainland China, which is to say that Taipei corresponds more closely with the images I had of China before I ever traveled there, from its architecture, to it culture, to its cuisine.

This makes sense, of course, given Chiang Kai-Shek’s goal of Chinese national restoration in Taiwan following the exile of the Republic of China there, to say nothing of Mao’s goal of destroying most things traditionally Chinese during the Cultural Revolution in the People’s Republic of China.
 
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The truth is:

You do not know the history of the Island of Taiwan

Japan never admitted that “Taiwan was returned to China.”​

Taiwan was already ceded to Japan before the end of the Qing dynasty. From China’s perspective, it was an “unequal treaty.” However, in terms of international law, it was a legal transfer of territory. At the same time, recognizing the legality of territorial transfer doesn’t erase the possibility of returning such territory legally again.

In the case of Hong Kong, for example, Kowloon and Hong Kong island were both ceded to Britain in perpetuity. Yet the Sino-British Joint Declaration stated that the PRC would legally repossess the entire Hong Kong.

After the Second World War, Taiwan should have been returned to the ROC as well. Practically speaking, the ROC has indeed reclaimed Taiwan. But in terms of international law, whether Taiwan has been returned remains in an “incomplete” status.

Three documents — the Cairo Declaration, the Potsdam Declaration, and the Japanese Instrument of Surrender — have determined that Taiwan must be returned to China after WWII. However, each of these documents standing alone is insufficient to prove that Taiwan must be returned. We have to examine all three together to clarify the logic.

The Cairo Declaration was the only document that mentioned: “all the territories Japan has stolen from the Chinese, such as Manchuria, Formosa, and The Pescadores, shall be restored to the Republic of China.” But it was not signed by Japan — it was more like a statement of political will. The 1945 Potsdam Declaration was signed between the Allies, and it stated that Japan must accept the Cairo Declaration, but again it was not a treaty signed off by Japan.

The 1945 Japanese Instrument of Surrender was signed between Japan’s representatives and the Allies, officially the end of the war. Ironically, this treaty did not mention the Cairo Declaration or Taiwan. It had only stated Japan’s acceptance of the conditions outlined in the Potsdam Declaration, indirectly linking it to the initial Cairo Declaration.

Despite all the twists and turns, Taiwan was “supposed” to be returned to the ROC.

Legally speaking, however, the above-mentioned documents were simply “letters of intent.” Although they have a certain extent of legal authority, only an official peace treaty signed by Japan can resolve Taiwan’s status legally. Unfortunately, the Cold War quickly took place and the peace treaty with Japan was not finalized until 1951, yet the KMT had lost the civil war and retreated to Taiwan in 1949. There was no consensus on which government represented “China,” therefore neither the PRC nor the ROC attended the conference.

In the end, Japan only declared to “surrender” Taiwan in the 1951 Treaty of San Francisco, rather than “returning” Taiwan. Next, under the U.S. permission, Japan decided to choose the KMT-ruled ROC as “the sole legal government of China” and signed the Treaty of Taipei with the ROC government. In Article 2 of the Treaty of Taipei, both parties agreed that “Japan has renounced all right, title and claim to Taiwan (Formosa) and Penghu (the Pescadores) as well as the Spratly Islands and the Paracel Islands,” according to the San Francisco Treaty.

Both the PRC and ROC have emphasized that the Treaty of Taipei meant Taiwan has been returned to China. The logic was, in terms of international law, Taiwan was only relevant to China-Japan relations without a third party claiming sovereignty over Taiwan — so it was redundant to reiterate the returned party in the treaty. But it leaves a loophole: Will Taiwan still have the right to self-determination when Japan had only surrendered the territory? Within the U.N. list of "non-self-governing territories," which are subject to the decolonization process, Taiwan was not included. In other words, Taiwan was already decolonized, but its status was still incomplete.

Until 1972, Japan signed the Japan-China Joint Communiqué with Beijing to establish their diplomatic relations. In this agreement, the Japanese government “fully understood and respected” the position of the PRC that Taiwan was an inalienable territory of the PRC, but note that Japan never used the term “recognize” or even “acknowledge.”

At the same time, Japan insisted on complying with the Potsdam Declaration, which implied that Japan acknowledged Taiwan was already returned to the ROC. Also, the Japanese government refused to call the Treaty of Taipei illegal or invalid after it was abrogated and declined to “surrender” Taiwan again. The Japanese argued that Japan had already “surrendered” Taiwan once in the 1950s, therefore it cannot be done again. But these arguments did not help to clarify Taiwan’s international legal status.

Taiwan is the Real China

The Republic of China was never conquered by the communists....they fled to the Island of Formosa.

The mainland is occupied by communist usurpers hence their obsession with Taiwan....they know to be legal they must conquer Taiwan where the real legal government of China resides.

I mentioned earlier that I find Taipei to be a great deal more Chinese than anywhere I’ve visited in mainland China, which is to say that Taipei corresponds more closely with the images I had of China before I ever traveled there, from its architecture, to it culture, to its cuisine.

This makes sense, of course, given Chiang Kai-Shek’s goal of Chinese national restoration in Taiwan following the exile of the Republic of China there, to say nothing of Mao’s goal of destroying most things traditionally Chinese during the Cultural Revolution in the People’s Republic of China.
No. I don't know where you found this horseshit...but it's exactly that...horseshit.

Japan had no say in whom received what once their imperial territories were ceded back to the Chinese who were currently led by Chiang Kai shek.


 

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