Should the US Arm Ukraine?

[georgephillip]

The Russians are a lot like a clever, obnoxious, bellicose, drunken party crasher, who shows up every so often at a gathering, offends and bullies a number of guests, drinks-up half the punch bowl, belches and farts continuously and clears half the rooms in the gathering-place, and has to be shown the door and have the door slammed in its face.

It wasn't the Russians who invaded and occupied two sovereign states on the opposite side of the planet from Moscow. The "bully" in this tale hasn't changed in my lifetime: the greatest purveyor of violence in the world wants control of Eurasian gas and oil, and Russia (and China) stand in its star-spangled way. Obama and whatever corporate tool comes next think Russian nationalists will back down in their "near abroad", and that's just as unlikely as the Pentagon backing down over Russian aggression in Mexico or Canada.

 

[Roadrunner]

Not 30 years ago Ukraine had nuclear missiles aimed at the US. Now we're supposed to give a shit if Russia takes them back?

Ukraine was Russian for centuries.

Kiev was the first Russian capital.

Khruschev gave them "independence" in order to get another Red vote in the Cold War UN.

How this works out is in no way, shape or form our business.

American seniors would appreciate the MRE's and small arms and ammunition Obama is giving away.

Fuck the Ukrainian Usurpers.

 

[bendog]

The Russians are a lot like a clever, obnoxious, bellicose, drunken party crasher, who shows up every so often at a gathering, offends and bullies a number of guests, drinks-up half the punch bowl, belches and farts continuously and clears half the rooms in the gathering-place, and has to be shown the door and have the door slammed in its face.

It wasn't the Russians who invaded and occupied two sovereign states on the opposite side of the planet from Moscow. The "bully" in this tale hasn't changed in my lifetime: the greatest purveyor of violence in the world wants control of Eurasian gas and oil, and Russia (and China) stand in its star-spangled way. Obama and whatever corporate tool comes next think Russian nationalists will back down in their "near abroad", and that's just as unlikely as the Pentagon backing down over Russian aggression in Mexico or Canada.

BushII was a disaster, but you conveniently over look ... communism.

 

[Steinlight]

For a debate between a retired USAF General and John Mearsheimer on what could possibly go wrong with arming the Kiev government, please listen to this twenty-seven minute segment of DemocracyNow!

"As fighting continues in Ukraine, President Obama said Monday he has not ruled out arming the Ukrainian military against Russian-backed rebels. Meeting with Obama at the White House, German Chancellor Angela Merkel reiterated her opposition to arming Ukraine, saying the conflict could not be resolved militarily. Merkel is set to hold talks in Minsk on Wednesday with the leaders of Russia, Ukraine and France in a bid to end the crisis that has killed thousands and displaced 1.5 million people over the past year. Should the United States escalate its role in the conflict by arming Ukraine? We host a debate between retired Air Force general Charles Wald, the former deputy commander of U.S. European Command, and University of Chicago professor John Mearsheimer."
Playing with Fire A Debate on U.S. Arming Ukraine NATO Expansion to Russia s Border Democracy Now

Why should we arm the usurpers who overthrew the elected government?

I agree the Maiden was at least precipitous, and the exit strategy engineered by Kerry was the better course, but the current Ukraine govt is democratically elected. It's true that the eastern provinces don't want to be part of it, but no one is saying they can't go with Russia.

You'd really be OK with Russia "reacquiring" the old soviet empire?

No one is saying Donbass can't go with Russia? Than what exactly is the war over again?

 

[Stratford57]

^Translation:
Peter Poroshenko (Ukrainian President): "I'm a President of Peace, not a President of War!"
Hitler: "I'm a chancellor of peace, not a chancellor of war! "

 

[BullKurtz]

We've already armed the Ukes whether Barry likes it or not. The CIA isn't about to sit idly by while the punk in the WH watches the Putin invade a sovereign nation. That's why Putin is trying to freak out Merkel with his sabre rattling....we already have over a hundred SFGs in Kiev training the Uke military....I've had that training and it's the best in the world. Putin might think he can overrun Kiev but if he tries, he'll find himself in a deeper pit than his soviet moron brethren dug in Afghanistan.

 

[LogikAndReazon]

"Democracynow" ....

Might as well get the opinion of the Russian times, the socialist worker or ny times.

 

[Stratford57]

We've already armed the Ukes whether Barry likes it or not. The CIA isn't about to sit idly by while the punk in the WH watches the ME burn. That's why Putin is trying to freak out Merkel with his sabre rattling....we already have over a hundred SFGs in Kiev training the Uke military....I've had that training and it's the best in the world. Putin might think he can overrun Kiev but if he tries, he'll find himself in a deeper pit than his soviet moron brethren dug in Afghanistan.

And for what reasons Washington is arming Ukes? To help them to kill their own people, who dared to disagree? But that is the fascist ideology, are you aware of it?
I thought Americans were fighting against fascism during WW2. Or it was last century and now the things have changed?

^Translation:
Good old America is not the same now...

 

[LogikAndReazon]

The Soviet Union needs to regain all its former territories and bring back the glory days to communism and the hammer and sickle....
For the people !!!!!!! Lol

 

[BullKurtz]

Yanukovych was a crook and a Putin puppet....his snipers murdered hundreds of freedom-seeking Ukes on the streets of Kiev. And then he ran to Pooty instead of facing the wrath of the people he tried to keep in russian chains. When they got inside his palace they saw where their meager wealth was going. Now Putin has turned a friend of russia into a bitter enemy and they will never surrender.

 

[BullKurtz]

And for what reasons Washington is arming Ukes? To help them to kill their own people, who dared to disagree? But that is the fascist ideology, are you aware of it?

The "separatists" are russian troops you idiot....why do you think they're wearing masks? The "fascist" is Putin pulling this stunt of pretending the eastern Ukes want to be russian....they don't and it's why they're fighting like wild dogs to keep Putin from building a land-bridge to Crimea.

 

[BullKurtz]

And BTW, we have TREATY OBLIGATIONS to defend Ukraine in exchange for them giving up their nuclear weapons in the early 90's. We either stand by our word or we're shit.

 

[LogikAndReazon]

If Mexico invaded Texas they can claim they are supporting the vast majority of Texan seperatists.....
And righteously so ! Lmfao

 

[BullKurtz]

If Mexico invaded Texas they can claim they are supporting the vast majority of Texan seperatists.....
And righteously so ! Lmfao

So long, moron.

 

[Stratford57]

The "separatists" are russian troops you idiot....why do you think they're wearing masks? The "fascist" is Putin pulling this stunt of pretending the eastern Ukes want to be russian....they don't and it's why they're fighting like wild dogs to keep Putin from building a land-bridge to Crimea.

So, since some people were wearing masks, it automatically made them Russian troops? No other options? FYI, Nazis in Ukraine, supporting the current government, are wearing masks until now. It must have been Putin's order for them to guard the butts of current Ukrainian rulers, ha?
Listen to the conversation between EU Foreign Policy Chief Catherine Ashton and Estonian Foreign Minister Urmas Paet. They were talking about snipers, killing both protestors and “Berkut”, the Yanukovitch guardians. The snipers were “working” for a “new coalition”(which later accomplished unconstitutional coup), not for Yanukovitch. Also you may find a few more facts, unknown by Western taxpayers.

 

[GHook93]

For a debate between a retired USAF General and John Mearsheimer on what could possibly go wrong with arming the Kiev government, please listen to this twenty-seven minute segment of DemocracyNow!

"As fighting continues in Ukraine, President Obama said Monday he has not ruled out arming the Ukrainian military against Russian-backed rebels. Meeting with Obama at the White House, German Chancellor Angela Merkel reiterated her opposition to arming Ukraine, saying the conflict could not be resolved militarily. Merkel is set to hold talks in Minsk on Wednesday with the leaders of Russia, Ukraine and France in a bid to end the crisis that has killed thousands and displaced 1.5 million people over the past year. Should the United States escalate its role in the conflict by arming Ukraine? We host a debate between retired Air Force general Charles Wald, the former deputy commander of U.S. European Command, and University of Chicago professor John Mearsheimer."
Playing with Fire A Debate on U.S. Arming Ukraine NATO Expansion to Russia s Border Democracy Now

It must be those JJJOOOSSSS right boy George!

 

[BullKurtz]

Russian troops? No other options?
Listen to the conversation between EU Foreign Policy Chief Catherine Ashton and Estonian Foreign Minister Urmas Paet. They were talking about snipers, killing both protestors and “Berkut”, the Yanukovitch guardians. The snipers were “working” for a “new coalition”(which later accomplished unconstitutional coup), not for Yanukovitch. Also you may find a few more facts, unknown by Western taxpayers.

Fuck off poser....your hero Putin will catch a bullet before May Day....remember where you heard it first.

 

[bendog]

For a debate between a retired USAF General and John Mearsheimer on what could possibly go wrong with arming the Kiev government, please listen to this twenty-seven minute segment of DemocracyNow!

"As fighting continues in Ukraine, President Obama said Monday he has not ruled out arming the Ukrainian military against Russian-backed rebels. Meeting with Obama at the White House, German Chancellor Angela Merkel reiterated her opposition to arming Ukraine, saying the conflict could not be resolved militarily. Merkel is set to hold talks in Minsk on Wednesday with the leaders of Russia, Ukraine and France in a bid to end the crisis that has killed thousands and displaced 1.5 million people over the past year. Should the United States escalate its role in the conflict by arming Ukraine? We host a debate between retired Air Force general Charles Wald, the former deputy commander of U.S. European Command, and University of Chicago professor John Mearsheimer."
Playing with Fire A Debate on U.S. Arming Ukraine NATO Expansion to Russia s Border Democracy Now

Why should we arm the usurpers who overthrew the elected government?

I agree the Maiden was at least precipitous, and the exit strategy engineered by Kerry was the better course, but the current Ukraine govt is democratically elected. It's true that the eastern provinces don't want to be part of it, but no one is saying they can't go with Russia.

You'd really be OK with Russia "reacquiring" the old soviet empire?

No one is saying Donbass can't go with Russia? Than what exactly is the war over again?

I think there's pretty much of an agreement that the Eastern provinces can go with Russia. It's illegal under intl law to assist one part of a nation to secede, and Russia is violating intl law. However, Ukraine is a country where the soviets "populated" the east. As a nation it emerged with the fall of the soviet union, so really this should be a peaceful break, because the east has a different culture. In short, it's not a homogenous country.

However, I don't believe Putin's real aim is simply supporting ethnic Russians and Russian speaking people. It's that, but it's also part of a geopolitical attempt to reconfigure some form of the soviet empire to be a trading partner based NOT on free trade, but rather acceptance of monopolistic markets in exchange for discounts on oil and gas.

 

[bendog]

Yanukovych was a crook and a Putin puppet....his snipers murdered hundreds of freedom-seeking Ukes on the streets of Kiev. And then he ran to Pooty instead of facing the wrath of the people he tried to keep in russian chains. When they got inside his palace they saw where their meager wealth was going. Now Putin has turned a friend of russia into a bitter enemy and they will never surrender.

He's a stooge, I agree, but he was also legally elected. We had worked out an agreement for him to finish his term and hold new elections before Ukraine made any trade deals. It's not logically possible to argue that the Maiden resulted in a legal transfer of power.

But, it's not possible to go back. So, the question is how can we get some peace now.

 

[Steinlight]

For a debate between a retired USAF General and John Mearsheimer on what could possibly go wrong with arming the Kiev government, please listen to this twenty-seven minute segment of DemocracyNow!

"As fighting continues in Ukraine, President Obama said Monday he has not ruled out arming the Ukrainian military against Russian-backed rebels. Meeting with Obama at the White House, German Chancellor Angela Merkel reiterated her opposition to arming Ukraine, saying the conflict could not be resolved militarily. Merkel is set to hold talks in Minsk on Wednesday with the leaders of Russia, Ukraine and France in a bid to end the crisis that has killed thousands and displaced 1.5 million people over the past year. Should the United States escalate its role in the conflict by arming Ukraine? We host a debate between retired Air Force general Charles Wald, the former deputy commander of U.S. European Command, and University of Chicago professor John Mearsheimer."
Playing with Fire A Debate on U.S. Arming Ukraine NATO Expansion to Russia s Border Democracy Now

Why should we arm the usurpers who overthrew the elected government?

I agree the Maiden was at least precipitous, and the exit strategy engineered by Kerry was the better course, but the current Ukraine govt is democratically elected. It's true that the eastern provinces don't want to be part of it, but no one is saying they can't go with Russia.

You'd really be OK with Russia "reacquiring" the old soviet empire?

No one is saying Donbass can't go with Russia? Than what exactly is the war over again?

I think there's pretty much of an agreement that the Eastern provinces can go with Russia. It's illegal under intl law to assist one part of a nation to secede, and Russia is violating intl law. However, Ukraine is a country where the soviets "populated" the east. As a nation it emerged with the fall of the soviet union, so really this should be a peaceful break, because the east has a different culture. In short, it's not a homogenous country.

However, I don't believe Putin's real aim is simply supporting ethnic Russians and Russian speaking people. It's that, but it's also part of a geopolitical attempt to reconfigure some form of the soviet empire to be a trading partner based NOT on free trade, but rather acceptance of monopolistic markets in exchange for discounts on oil and gas.

If you think there is an agreement, then you are living in another world. You have apparently been ignoring the civil war waging the last year. There is absolute no agreement that Donbass should go to Russia, certainly Ukraine and the US do not concede to this point, and no such agreement was ever made at either Minsk summit.

As for international law, the US is pretty hypocritical here. They support secession of Kosovo from Serbia, for example, but oppose it in Donbass. They "enforce international norms" yet they flagrantly violate them by illegally invading Iraq and the recent bombings in Libya for example.

They put out this "international law" propaganda because they know people in the West because they know this kind of red meat will win the support of more apprehensive liberals like you. You are falling for it when this policy is not about enforcing international law, but about expanding NATO and the EU. It is about undermining Russia and by extension the BRICS nations as a rival geopolitical and economic counterweight to the West, which threatens US dollar as the global reserve currency. However, it seems the European Union is increasingly weary to enforce "international norms", as it is our European economies taking the hit for American expansionist policy.

Lets make no mistake about this. The United States is the aggressor in this instance. The facilitated a coup by giving billions to these anti-government and "democratic" NGOs in Ukraine as part of a broader policy to expand NATO to Russia's border. They have been engaging in this policy since the fall of the Soviet Union. This expansionist policy is in violation of the spirit of that agreement set by both governments after the reunification of Germany, where the US left the impression, or as some say, guaranteed they would not expand eastward. . It is dishonest and aggressive foreign policy. Putin is entirely within his right to protect his regional interests. He is the one reacting to, not initiating, the conflict.