Zone1 Should The Christian Bible Be Called "The Book of Opinions?"

[Dante]

That would be omission, not opinion.
They couldn't put all the books into one giant book. It would be too heavy to lift. A group of men asked for God's help in choosing what should go in, and which books to leave out. And God intervened on their behalf.

No, it does not.

So you're claiming some books and followers were proclaimed to be anathema, all because there were too many books to include in the Christian Bible? LOL

The Books themselves are opinions, is what I was getting at. One Apostle says one thing, and another says it differently. Some stories seem to contradict each other.

How would this god intervene? In what way?

 

[The Irish Ram]

So you're claiming some books and followers were proclaimed to be anathema, all because there were too many books to include in the Christian Bible? LOL

The Books themselves are opinions, is what I was getting at. One Apostle says one thing, and another says it differently. Some stories seem to contradict each other.

How would this god intervene? In what way?

Far from true. The other books are not considered anathemas. I don't know where you got that. If I hand you a card, and it is the 6 of spades, and I tell you that it is the six of spades, that isn't my opinion of the card. That is what the card is. When those who heard what Jesus said and wrote it down, each separate from the others, and they all say the same thing, it lends credence to what Christ said.

 

[JohnDB]

NOTE: oops. I hit the wrong button. Not finished writing

I am serious in asking "Should The Christian Bible Be Called "The Book of Opinions?""

I do know that the "Books" in the Bible were selected out of a larger group of books. The Synods ruled what was in and what was out.

One quote: "During the fourth century, several church synods, such as the Councils of Rome (382), Hippo (393), and Carthage (397), accepted all 27 books of the New Testament as canonical."

We have this:

The Deuterocanonical Books

Some of the Books tell different versions of a story, whereas some Books tell a story not in other Books. Is that not "opinion?"

Some self-appointed authorities got to decide. Often by brute force anathematizing or killing off those who challenged them.

Ok...this is not true.
There was an already established "cannon" of scripture including all the current books of the scriptures except for Jude by 100 AD....200 years before this synod. And Jude, a very short letter, wasn't included because it existed only in a town that was isolated from the rest and the letter was not circulated like the rest of the New Testament.

There was no debate...there was no arguing or anyone wanting anything else included or excluded that wasn't already. They all were using the exact same Bible in two different languages. One in Greek and one in Aramaic.

The books known as "along side" or currently known as apocryphal books were never considered scripture. Nobody argued in favor of them being considered cannon. They ALWAYS were considered "apocryphal". They even have their own subsection in Jewish Bibles and have no targumim (commentaries and translation from Hebrew) because nobody believed them to be scriptures.

 

[Dante]

Far from true. The other books are not considered anathemas. I don't know where you got that. If I hand you a card, and it is the 6 of spades, and I tell you that it is the six of spades, that isn't my opinion of the card. That is what the card is. When those who heard what Jesus said and wrote it down, each separate from the others, and they all say the same thing, it lends credence to what Christ said.

The Books are varying opinions. The books do not all same the same thing.

It's not that troublesome for the faithful, to believe the books are opinions. Why people like you protest so loudly and vehemently is a sign of insecurity.

 

[surada]

In the New Testament an Anathema was a person or thing cursed or condemned by God. In the Old Testament, an Anathema was something or someone dedicated to God as a sacrifice, or cursed and separated from God because of sin.

 

[JohnDB]

The Books are varying opinions. The books do not all same the same thing.

It's not that troublesome for the faithful, to believe the books are opinions. Why people like you protest so loudly and vehemently is a sign of insecurity.

No...
The modern Bible is a miracle performed by God.
Hebrew was one of the first 5 written languages and yet still relevant today.
The books written in Hebrew 5,780+ years ago are still relevant, believed, and adhered to today.
There is no language still being used today that old. There is no culture preserved and active today as old as Judaism.

We don't actively read and know any books from 2,000 years ago today. Homer's Illead is not argued over like the Bible and only 4 copies of it exist.

YOUR truth is that 66 books written over a period of 3,000+ years by 40+ authors somehow conspired in perfect agreement to fool everyone into acts of altruism, kindness, long-suffering, and morality for purposes of greed and power?

Sorry....I don't have that kind of belief.

 

[Dante]

Ok...this is not true.
There was an already established "cannon" of scripture including all the current books of the scriptures except for Jude by 100 AD....200 years before this synod. And Jude, a very short letter, wasn't included because it existed only in a town that was isolated from the rest and the letter was not circulated like the rest of the New Testament.

There was no debate...there was no arguing or anyone wanting anything else included or excluded that wasn't already. They all were using the exact same Bible in two different languages. One in Greek and one in Aramaic.

The books known as "along side" or currently known as apocryphal books were never considered scripture. Nobody argued in favor of them being considered cannon. They ALWAYS were considered "apocryphal". They even have their own subsection in Jewish Bibles and have no targumim (commentaries and translation from Hebrew) because nobody believed them to be scriptures.

Considered "scripture" "apocryphal" ?

I guess the considerations were and are opinions. Weirder is they were written by some men rather than by prophets? What about the "finger of god" tales? Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic all over the place.

There was debate during Synods. From when I was involved with Orthodox Christians, I remember hearing something about Athanasius.

So out of curiosity I just now did a quickie search:

How were the books of the Bible put together?

Tony Watkins explores how the 66 books of the Bible were put together, why they were included and not others, and how we can be confident that the Bible we have today is the 'word of God'.

tyndalehouse.com

 

[The Irish Ram]

The Books are varying opinions. The books do not all same the same thing.

It's not that troublesome for the faithful, to believe the books are opinions. Why people like you protest so loudly and vehemently is a sign of insecurity.

What opinions of Christ differ from one another?

 

[Dante]

No...
The modern Bible is a miracle performed by God.
Hebrew was one of the first 5 written languages and yet still relevant today.
The books written in Hebrew 5,780+ years ago are still relevant, believed, and adhered to today.
There is no language still being used today that old. There is no culture preserved and active today as old as Judaism.

We don't actively read and know any books from 2,000 years ago today. Homer's Illead is not argued over like the Bible and only 4 copies of it exist.

YOUR truth is that 66 books written over a period of 3,000+ years by 40+ authors somehow conspired in perfect agreement to fool everyone into acts of altruism, kindness, long-suffering, and morality for purposes of greed and power?

Sorry....I don't have that kind of belief.

Miracles are a subjective view of things. I've seen just about everything described as being a religious miracle. It's all mostly nonsense to me. I long ago looked into bleeding Icons, et al.

I watched prayer circles take credit for something good, calling it a miracle, yet ignoring all the other stuff. Reminded of Jean Dixon and her predictions.

Because people believe in something does not make it true. People believe man y weird things. Look at MAGA with Q.

I don't deal with your type of "truths" or supernatural beliefs. I know many people who do think and act like you do.

"acts of altruism, kindness" are performed every day by people who are not guided by and told to do so by religious authority.

but okay, not here to debate what individuals hold as beliefs

 

[Dante]

What opinions of Christ differ from one another?

You can't be serious.

 

[JohnDB]

Considered "scripture" "apocryphal" ?

I guess the considerations were and are opinions. Weirder is they were written by some men rather than by prophets? What about the "finger of god" tales? Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic all over the place.

There was debate during Synods. From when I was involved with Orthodox Christians, I remember hearing something about Athanasius.

So out of curiosity I just now did a quickie search:

How were the books of the Bible put together?

Tony Watkins explores how the 66 books of the Bible were put together, why they were included and not others, and how we can be confident that the Bible we have today is the 'word of God'.

tyndalehouse.com

Jerome had a debate with a contemporary about retranslating the Old Testament into Latin himself....
That's as close as it comes to a content debate. The apocryphal books were not really a debate among Christians....they were among Jews who argued about everything. The Apocrypha was always considered extra knowledge. They all had glaring errors and inconsistencies with scripture. But they were widely read by most Jews and therefore relevant on that fact alone. Just like today Enoch was a very popular religious fiction book that was circulating during Jesus's ministry tour. Jesus referenced it too a few times. That doesn't mean that it's scripture or believed anymore than if Jesus was on ministry tour today and referenced the Left Behind series. It just was commonly known material in the culture.

 

[Dante]

What opinions of Christ differ from one another?

One great big motivator for beliefs is punishment at The End Times. Start with Pascal's wager and take it from there.


I remember these people (I am no atheist, nor agnostic), and a simple search would show more. This crap (contradictions) has been argued for centuries.

The End of the World​

“Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. ” — Matthew 16:28

“Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. ” — Luke 21:32-33

“And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.” — Romans 13:11-12

“Be ye also patient; establish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.” — James 5:8

“Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.” — 1 John 2:18

“But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.” — 1 Peter 4:7

These words were written between 1800 and 1900 years ago and were meant to warn and prepare the first Christians for the immediate end of the world. Some words are those supposedly straight out of the mouth of the “Son of God.” The world did not end 1800 or 1900 years ago. All that generation passed away without any of the things foretold coming to pass. No amount of prayer brought it about; nor ever so much patience and belief and sober living. The world went on, as usual, indifferent to the spoutings of yet another batch of doomsday prophets with visions of messiahs dancing in their deluded brains. The world, by surviving, makes the above passages contradictions.

Conclusion​

What is incredible about the Bible is not its divine authorship; it’s that such a concoction of contradictory nonsense could be believed by anyone to have been written by an omniscient god. To do so, one would first have to not read the book, which is the practice of most Christians; or, if one does read it, dump in the trash can one’s rational intelligence — to become a fool for god, in other words.

To be an atheist, one need only be able to laugh when such obvious nonsense is offered as being “divine” truth.

All Bible quotes from the Authorized King James Version of the Bible (New York: Abradale Press, 1965)

This is an adaptation of an article originally written by former Interim President and current member of the Board of Directors Frank Zindler.

Biblical Contradictions

It is a central dogma of all fundamental Christians that the Bible is without error. They teach this conclusion by “reasoning” that god cannot be the author of false meaning and he cannot lie. Is this true? If written by a perfect being, then it must not contradict itself, as a collection of...

www.atheists.org

 

[JohnDB]

Miracles are a subjective view of things. I've seen just about everything described as being a religious miracle. It's all mostly nonsense to me. I long ago looked into bleeding Icons, et al.

I watched prayer circles take credit for something good, calling it a miracle, yet ignoring all the other stuff. Reminded of Jean Dixon and her predictions.

Because people believe in something does not make it true. People believe man y weird things. Look at MAGA with Q.

I don't deal with your type of "truths" or supernatural beliefs. I know many people who do think and act like you do.

"acts of altruism, kindness" are performed every day by people who are not guided by and told to do so by religious authority.

but okay, not here to debate what individuals hold as beliefs

The Miracle is that all of the cannon is in perfect agreement and preserved today.

We cannot get two people to agree on this forum perfectly....
Longer novels often have inconsistencies and disagree with themselves even though one writer wrote the novel.

Then I doubt we could find a single person today to agree perfectly with Thomas Edison much less someone from 3,000 years ago.

But you continue on with your fantasy....
If it helps you sleep at night.

I need something a lot more logical and realistic to put my faith in.

Edited to add:
All that atheist nonsense is hopeful wishing...they do not understand the context of scriptures and create straw dogs to then slay.

 

[Dante]

Jerome had a debate with a contemporary about retranslating the Old Testament into Latin himself....
That's as close as it comes to a content debate. The apocryphal books were not really a debate among Christians....they were among Jews who argued about everything. The Apocrypha was always considered extra knowledge. They all had glaring errors and inconsistencies with scripture. But they were widely read by most Jews and therefore relevant on that fact alone. Just like today Enoch was a very popular religious fiction book that was circulating during Jesus's ministry tour. Jesus referenced it too a few times. That doesn't mean that it's scripture or believed anymore than if Jesus was on ministry tour today and referenced the Left Behind series. It just was commonly known material in the culture.

The cultures. Christians taking over and going after non believers. The cultures of those days were not ones any of us would truly like to be living in.

Reminds me of the people who are New Age and believed they were all Cleopatra, Julius Caesar, or Mark Antony. Few (relatively zero), claimed to be the poor slobs who's lives were miserable and not worth a wooden nickel

 

[JohnDB]

The cultures. Christians taking over and going after non believers. The cultures of those days were not ones any of us would truly like to be living in.

Reminds me of the people who are New Age and believed they were all Cleopatra, Julius Caesar, or Mark Antony. Few (relatively zero), claimed to be the poor slobs who's lives were miserable and not worth a wooden nickel

Subject shifting? Moving goal posts?
ROFL. That's a logical fallacy right there.

You sure you want to risk Hell on a logical fallacy?

I ain't got that kind of bravery. But you do you. Good luck with that. (You are definitely gonna need it)

 

[The Irish Ram]

You can't be serious.

No I'm not.
And Christ's words are the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, so no matter the age.
But tell me what Paul and John disagree on what Christ said and did. Or John and Peter, or Peter and Matthew. Where is the disconnect you think these men had?

 

[surada]

One great big motivator for beliefs is punishment at The End Times. Start with Pascal's wager and take it from there.


I remember these people (I am no atheist, nor agnostic), and a simple search would show more. This crap (contradictions) has been argued for centuries.

The End of the World​

“Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. ” — Matthew 16:28

“Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. ” — Luke 21:32-33

“And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.” — Romans 13:11-12

“Be ye also patient; establish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.” — James 5:8

“Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.” — 1 John 2:18

“But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.” — 1 Peter 4:7

These words were written between 1800 and 1900 years ago and were meant to warn and prepare the first Christians for the immediate end of the world. Some words are those supposedly straight out of the mouth of the “Son of God.” The world did not end 1800 or 1900 years ago. All that generation passed away without any of the things foretold coming to pass. No amount of prayer brought it about; nor ever so much patience and belief and sober living. The world went on, as usual, indifferent to the spoutings of yet another batch of doomsday prophets with visions of messiahs dancing in their deluded brains. The world, by surviving, makes the above passages contradictions.

Conclusion​

What is incredible about the Bible is not its divine authorship; it’s that such a concoction of contradictory nonsense could be believed by anyone to have been written by an omniscient god. To do so, one would first have to not read the book, which is the practice of most Christians; or, if one does read it, dump in the trash can one’s rational intelligence — to become a fool for god, in other words.

To be an atheist, one need only be able to laugh when such obvious nonsense is offered as being “divine” truth.

All Bible quotes from the Authorized King James Version of the Bible (New York: Abradale Press, 1965)

This is an adaptation of an article originally written by former Interim President and current member of the Board of Directors Frank Zindler.

Biblical Contradictions

It is a central dogma of all fundamental Christians that the Bible is without error. They teach this conclusion by “reasoning” that god cannot be the author of false meaning and he cannot lie. Is this true? If written by a perfect being, then it must not contradict itself, as a collection of...

www.atheists.org

Excellent post .

 

[Meriweather]

“Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. ” — Matthew 16:28

Compare this to Mark's Gospel, which was written prior to Matthew's:

"Amen I to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see that the kingdom of God has come in power."

 

[Meriweather]

“Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. ” — Luke 21:32-33

In this passage, it is helpful to understand that the Aramaic/Hebrew word that is translated as 'generation' only rarely refers to a single generation. It is more commonly used for "This race", or "This nation", or "This family."

 

[surada]

In this passage, it is helpful to understand that the Aramaic/Hebrew word that is translated as 'generation' only rarely refers to a single generation. It is more commonly used for "This race", or "This nation", or "This family."

Nope. A generation is traditionally 40 years.