Should Israel repair the Temple.

[Sixties Fan]

Yes. Yes, it is. And those principles should be followed. NONE of those principles allow for a popular vote on where borders between nations are. Only the nations involved have a right to determine borders.

You are incorrect; borders are not decided by belligerent states but by international treaty. The border of Israel was decided by the United Nations in 1948. It did not nor does it include Judea and Sumeria, including East Jerusalem nor Gaza.

Sure. Before the war when Israel could have marched into Amman or Cairo.. Conflict has consequences. You fight wars to PREVENT future conflict.

Hitler said as much when he invaded the Soviet Union.

Hitler wasn't simultaneously attacked by 5 hostile neighbors -- was he? Try harder..

Yes, he was. Before Hitler attacked the Soviet Union, Germany had been attacked by France, England with declarations of war by South Africa, Canada. Australia, New Zealand, Norwegian resistance partisans, Jugoslavia, Greece, and so forth.

But, Eloy.....Who started WWII ?

 

[Eloy]

I'm sorry, you lost me there.

Of course, I've lost you. You don't appear to have any knowledge about the treaties which form the basis of law with respect to this conflict. So you talk about 1948 as though a treaty was signed in that year. None was. And you talk about 1967 as though a treaty was signed in that year. None was. So why would you bring up 1948 or 1967?! There is no relevancy there because there are no treaties that apply signed in those years.

Jordan occupied East Palestine (the West Bank, including East Jerusalem) and, as all occupiers must do, ceded control to the Palestinian people who alone have sovereignty over the Occupied Territories.

"East Palestine"?! What treaty created East Palestine and West Palestine? Who signed it? What were the agreements made? Who were the Parties to the agreement?

You are literally making stuff up from thin air. You brought up the concept of treaties making international law. What treaties are you using to make up this so-called international law?

And Jordan did NOT cede control to the "Palestinian people". Have you even read the treaty? The treaty between Israel and Jordan confirms a border between their two nations. It says NOTHING about the "Palestinian people".

I'm sorry, you lost me there.

Of course, I've lost you. You don't appear to have any knowledge about the treaties which form the basis of law with respect to this conflict. So you talk about 1948 as though a treaty was signed in that year. None was. And you talk about 1967 as though a treaty was signed in that year. None was. So why would you bring up 1948 or 1967?! There is no relevancy there because there are no treaties that apply signed in those years.

International treaties are agreements between countries. It is not as clear cut as you imagine. For example, people might declare the independence or creation of a state such as the Jews did in Palestine. This happened in 1948. You are saying that Israel did not exist after 1948 because international treaty did not recognize it. You can hold onto that view and in some respects I agree with you but it is Friday night and I have yet to pick my horses for the races tomorrow so I cannot write a book of the history of Israel for you. We are talking past each other because you are making multiple posts about Lausanne and stuff getting away from the point. It is a game you play. I have tried discussing Israel with you before and got nowhere. It is a waste of time. Let's put it this way. I give up.

 

[Eloy]

You are incorrect; borders are not decided by belligerent states but by international treaty. The border of Israel was decided by the United Nations in 1948. It did not nor does it include Judea and Sumeria, including East Jerusalem nor Gaza.

Sure. Before the war when Israel could have marched into Amman or Cairo.. Conflict has consequences. You fight wars to PREVENT future conflict.

Hitler said as much when he invaded the Soviet Union.

Hitler wasn't simultaneously attacked by 5 hostile neighbors -- was he? Try harder..

Yes, he was. Before Hitler attacked the Soviet Union, Germany had been attacked by France, England with declarations of war by South Africa, Canada. Australia, New Zealand, Norwegian resistance partisans, Jugoslavia, Greece, and so forth.

But, Eloy.....Who started WWII ?

That all depends on whom you ask. Since you asked me, I would say WWII started itself.

 

[Roudy]

Sure. Before the war when Israel could have marched into Amman or Cairo.. Conflict has consequences. You fight wars to PREVENT future conflict.

Hitler said as much when he invaded the Soviet Union.

Hitler wasn't simultaneously attacked by 5 hostile neighbors -- was he? Try harder..

Yes, he was. Before Hitler attacked the Soviet Union, Germany had been attacked by France, England with declarations of war by South Africa, Canada. Australia, New Zealand, Norwegian resistance partisans, Jugoslavia, Greece, and so forth.

But, Eloy.....Who started WWII ?

That all depends on whom you ask. Since you asked me, I would say WWII started itself.

Ha Ha! WWII started itself?

 

[Sixties Fan]

Sure. Before the war when Israel could have marched into Amman or Cairo.. Conflict has consequences. You fight wars to PREVENT future conflict.

Hitler said as much when he invaded the Soviet Union.

Hitler wasn't simultaneously attacked by 5 hostile neighbors -- was he? Try harder..

Yes, he was. Before Hitler attacked the Soviet Union, Germany had been attacked by France, England with declarations of war by South Africa, Canada. Australia, New Zealand, Norwegian resistance partisans, Jugoslavia, Greece, and so forth.

But, Eloy.....Who started WWII ?

That all depends on whom you ask. Since you asked me, I would say WWII started itself.

It does not depend on whom one asks.
History is there. It is very clear.
Your answer is depending on what you have read, who you have listened to and what you have chosen to believe in.

Second, you seem to be mistaking International Law with Treaties.
You do not seem to know what they are and who uses each one.

The UN recognized that Israel was ready to be an Independent country in 1947 and announced so.

Israel declared Independence in May 1948, and as such became a country.

There is no such thing as International treaties. There are Treaties between countries, like the treaties Israel signed with Egypt and Jordan.

They are not International Treaties. They are simply Treaties.

 

[Roudy]

the temple mount is a lot older.

I know. But saying their is no history there for the muslims isnt correct

The Israelis aren't doing that, that's why Muslims AND Christians are free to worship at their sites. Do you prefer Muslims be in charge of some of the holiest sites in the Christian faith? I guaran-fuckin'-T you there won't be a single church or Christian holy site left standing.

The OP claimed that.
My gosh, am I the only one that read it?

The OP is claiming that it's the Arabs, not the Jews, that are using the Temple site as a flashpoint. The bottom line is Muslims are upset that one of their "holy sites" is under Jewish control and in a Jewish governed state. That in essence is the core of the conflict from day one. Arab / Muslim intolerance and violence towards the non Muslims. A quick glance at what Muslims have done all over the region throughout history will confirm this.

There goes that bickering LOL
Dude, they have been at it since the Jews rejected the pervert.
All I was commenting on was how Muslims have history at the temple mount.
You religious folk read more into my comments than my intent.
Frankly, I'm done defending my simple and correct post.
Good day.

Yes, Muslims do have a history on the Temple Mount! They invaded and then they built a mosque smack on top of the holiest site of the people they invaded. They did that in every country they invaded and Islamicized, including Turkey.

 

[Roudy]

THAT, alone, is a drastic departure from customary international law.

Nevertheless, it was the plan which neither Arabs nor Jews have honored.

It was a plan which neither the Arabs nor the Jewish people agreed to -- which is the customary requirement of international law.

There has never BEEN a territory under some sort of international sovereignty. Both the Arabs and the Jews have good reason to question that concept.

I wrote the Jews, not the "Jewish people".

Your point being?!

The Jewish people live all over the world and have no connection to Israel unless they choose to do so. When I wrote "the Jews" in the context of the border of Israel, it was clear I mean 75% of Israelis who are Jewish and want to have a Jewish state, a state for Jews, not Israeli minorities such as Muslims or Christians. Reference to the Jews in this context deliberately avoids inclusion of the Jewish people who are not citizens of Israel but of other countries such as Iran, Ireland, and Italy.

"The Jewish people live all over the world and have no connection to Israel unless they choose to do so."

Hee hee hee ho ho ho! You don't know a lot of Jews, do you?!

 

[Roudy]

What happens beyond a country's border does not change the sovereignty rights of a country. Israel's border cannot change because another country, Jordan, ceded Palestinian territory to the indigenous Arabs in the Occupied Territories.

1. Jordan never have sovereignty over the territory, therefore could not cede it to anyone.

2. You can't cede territory to an entity which has no legal status.

You are woefully ignorant about how international law works.

Jordan occupied East Palestine (the West Bank, including East Jerusalem) and, as all occupiers must do, ceded control to the Palestinian people who alone have sovereignty over the Occupied Territories.

Wow! Jordan deeded cintrol to the Palestinian people?! Link?

Amazing the amount of ignorance that is out there!

 

[Eloy]

Hitler said as much when he invaded the Soviet Union.

Hitler wasn't simultaneously attacked by 5 hostile neighbors -- was he? Try harder..

Yes, he was. Before Hitler attacked the Soviet Union, Germany had been attacked by France, England with declarations of war by South Africa, Canada. Australia, New Zealand, Norwegian resistance partisans, Jugoslavia, Greece, and so forth.

But, Eloy.....Who started WWII ?

That all depends on whom you ask. Since you asked me, I would say WWII started itself.

It does not depend on whom one asks.
History is there. It is very clear.
Your answer is depending on what you have read, who you have listened to and what you have chosen to believe in.

Stop contradicting me. Quit asking me questions if all you want to do is contradict.

Second, you seem to be mistaking International Law with Treaties.
You do not seem to know what they are and who uses each one.

Treaties are international law.
"A treaty is an agreement under international law entered into by actors in international law, namely sovereign states and international organizations."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty[/QUOTE]

The UN recognized that Israel was ready to be an Independent country in 1947 and announced so.

Israel declared Independence in May 1948, and as such became a country.

I do not know what it means to say that the UN recognized that Israel was ready to be an independent country. It strikes me as odd that the United Nations would be referencing a country which did not exist in 1947. In any event, the mere declaration of independence does not a country make. The Palestine people have declared statehood but the USA does not recognize the state of Palestine while other countries do so.

There is no such thing as International treaties. There are Treaties between countries, like the treaties Israel signed with Egypt and Jordan.

They are not International Treaties. They are simply Treaties.

You are playing with words adopting a condescending tone as if you know better than me. Treaties are international in nature.

 

[Sixties Fan]

Let us not forget that the Mandate for Palestine was about creating a country/state in the region of Palestine, just as the other three Mandates, post WWI.
Syria, Lebanon and Iraq were created once they fulfilled all the requirements needed to become a country.

Out of the Mandate for Palestine came Jordan in 77% of the area designated for that Mandate.
The UN Partition resolved to create two States instead of one due to the riots created by the Arabs. One Jewish and one Arab.

For those who are ignorant of how Israel became a State, and the Arabs ended up with no State, here is the Partition resolution which allowed Israel to be created.

"United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181 called for the partition of the British-ruled Palestine Mandate into a Jewish state and an Arab state. It was approved on November 29, 1947 with 33 votes in favor, 13 against, 10 abstentions and one absent (see list at end of document).

The resolution was accepted by the Jews in Palestine, yet rejected by the Arabs in Palestine and the Arab states."

http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/foreignpolicy/peace/guide/pages/un general assembly resolution 181.aspx

The British put an end to their Mandate. Israel became a State in May of 1948. The Arabs declared war the next day.

Israel signed a Peace Treaty with two sovereign States in later decades. Egypt and Jordan.
Palestine is not a sovereign State. It cannot become one until it renounces wanting to destroy Israel and enters into negotiations with Israel, as did Egypt and Jordan, and a Peace Treaty is signed.

Here is a background history

Milestones: 1945–1952 - Office of the Historian

 

[jillian]

1300 years or so isnt historic?

the temple mount is a lot older.

I know. But saying their is no history there for the muslims isnt correct

The Israelis aren't doing that, that's why Muslims AND Christians are free to worship at their sites. Do you prefer Muslims be in charge of some of the holiest sites in the Christian faith? I guaran-fuckin'-T you there won't be a single church or Christian holy site left standing.

The OP claimed that.
My gosh, am I the only one that read it?

The OP is claiming that it's the Arabs, not the Jews, that are using the Temple site as a flashpoint. The bottom line is Muslims are upset that one of their "holy sites" is under Jewish control and in a Jewish governed state. That in essence is the core of the conflict from day one. Arab / Muslim intolerance and violence towards the non Muslims. A quick glance at what Muslims have done all over the region throughout history will confirm this.

cute how an anti-semite thought those facts were funny.

but he'll cry and say he's not an anti-semite. he just likes arab revisionist history.

 

[jillian]

You are playing with words adopting a condescending tone as if you know better than me. Treaties are international in nature.

I'm not interested in arguing your anti-israel garbage.... but I'll point out that there are a lot of arab countries that didn't exist prior to UN decree or British mandate. one of the reasons we can smell an anti-semite from a mile away is the ease with which they say Israel should not exist but the UAE and Iraq are hunky dory.

and stop whining about being contradicted... who do you think you are that you shouldn't;t be contradicted?

 

[Roudy]

the temple mount is a lot older.

I know. But saying their is no history there for the muslims isnt correct

The Israelis aren't doing that, that's why Muslims AND Christians are free to worship at their sites. Do you prefer Muslims be in charge of some of the holiest sites in the Christian faith? I guaran-fuckin'-T you there won't be a single church or Christian holy site left standing.

The OP claimed that.
My gosh, am I the only one that read it?

The OP is claiming that it's the Arabs, not the Jews, that are using the Temple site as a flashpoint. The bottom line is Muslims are upset that one of their "holy sites" is under Jewish control and in a Jewish governed state. That in essence is the core of the conflict from day one. Arab / Muslim intolerance and violence towards the non Muslims. A quick glance at what Muslims have done all over the region throughout history will confirm this.

cute how an anti-semite thought those facts were funny.

but he'll cry and say he's not an anti-semite. he just likes arab revisionist history.

He will also tell you that he isn't an antisemite, just anti Zionist, which is the same, or worse. Ha ha ha!

 

[Shusha]

You are saying that Israel did not exist after 1948 because international treaty did not recognize it.

Where on earth did you get THAT idea? Israel existed from the time of the Treaty of Lausanne (1923). Neither admission to the UN, nor recognition at the UN, nor Israel's declaration of independence caused Israel to exist, but they did confirm that Israel met all the criteria necessary.

We are talking past each other because you are making multiple posts about Lausanne and stuff getting away from the point. It is a game you play. I have tried discussing Israel with you before and got nowhere. It is a waste of time. Let's put it this way. I give up.

You brought up treaties. Discussing the Treaty of Lausanne and the treaties of peace between Israel and Egypt and Jordan ARE the treaties which create the international law which describes the conflict. Its not a game. Its the very documentation upon which the Parties to the conflict agreed. If we are going to discuss the legal aspects of the conflict -- these are the documents which create the legality. We have to discuss them. Or at least acknowledge them.

The reason we get no where is because you have an idea in your head -- that East Jerusalem and the Old City and the Temple Mount and Judea and Samaria and Gaza legally belong to some made-up entity called "Palestine". You believe there is a border between "Palestine" and Israel. There isn't. There has the potential to be. But right now, there isn't. There won't be until negotiations are complete and a peace treaty is written and signed by the Parties to the conflict.

So, let's negotiate.

 

[Eloy]

Let us not forget that the Mandate for Palestine was about creating a country/state in the region of Palestine, just as the other three Mandates, post WWI.
Syria, Lebanon and Iraq were created once they fulfilled all the requirements needed to become a country.

Out of the Mandate for Palestine came Jordan in 77% of the area designated for that Mandate.
The UN Partition resolved to create two States instead of one due to the riots created by the Arabs. One Jewish and one Arab.

For those who are ignorant of how Israel became a State, and the Arabs ended up with no State, here is the Partition resolution which allowed Israel to be created.

"United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181 called for the partition of the British-ruled Palestine Mandate into a Jewish state and an Arab state. It was approved on November 29, 1947 with 33 votes in favor, 13 against, 10 abstentions and one absent (see list at end of document).

The resolution was accepted by the Jews in Palestine, yet rejected by the Arabs in Palestine and the Arab states."

http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/foreignpolicy/peace/guide/pages/un general assembly resolution 181.aspx

The British put an end to their Mandate. Israel became a State in May of 1948. The Arabs declared war the next day.

Israel signed a Peace Treaty with two sovereign States in later decades. Egypt and Jordan.
Palestine is not a sovereign State. It cannot become one until it renounces wanting to destroy Israel and enters into negotiations with Israel, as did Egypt and Jordan, and a Peace Treaty is signed.

Here is a background history

Milestones: 1945–1952 - Office of the Historian

Israel should not have been allowed to be a sectarian Jewish state regardless of how many countries agreed.

 

[Eloy]

You are playing with words adopting a condescending tone as if you know better than me. Treaties are international in nature.

I'm not interested in arguing your anti-israel garbage.... but I'll point out that there are a lot of arab countries that didn't exist prior to UN decree or British mandate. one of the reasons we can smell an anti-semite from a mile away is the ease with which they say Israel should not exist but the UAE and Iraq are hunky dory.

and stop whining about being contradicted... who do you think you are that you shouldn't;t be contradicted?

Stop being rude.

 

[Eloy]

You are saying that Israel did not exist after 1948 because international treaty did not recognize it.

Where on earth did you get THAT idea? Israel existed from the time of the Treaty of Lausanne (1923). Neither admission to the UN, nor recognition at the UN, nor Israel's declaration of independence caused Israel to exist, but they did confirm that Israel met all the criteria necessary.

We are talking past each other because you are making multiple posts about Lausanne and stuff getting away from the point. It is a game you play. I have tried discussing Israel with you before and got nowhere. It is a waste of time. Let's put it this way. I give up.

You brought up treaties. Discussing the Treaty of Lausanne and the treaties of peace between Israel and Egypt and Jordan ARE the treaties which create the international law which describes the conflict. Its not a game. Its the very documentation upon which the Parties to the conflict agreed. If we are going to discuss the legal aspects of the conflict -- these are the documents which create the legality. We have to discuss them. Or at least acknowledge them.

The reason we get no where is because you have an idea in your head -- that East Jerusalem and the Old City and the Temple Mount and Judea and Samaria and Gaza legally belong to some made-up entity called "Palestine". You believe there is a border between "Palestine" and Israel. There isn't. There has the potential to be. But right now, there isn't. There won't be until negotiations are complete and a peace treaty is written and signed by the Parties to the conflict.

So, let's negotiate.

Whatever I think, no-one except the Israeli Jews believes that East Jerusalem is part of Israel.

 

[Shusha]

Israel should not have been allowed to be a sectarian Jewish state regardless of how many countries agreed.

Why? This happened all over the world -- nations and empires dividing along ethnic and religious lines. India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Slovakia and the Czech Republic, Serbia, Montenegro, Kosovo, Slovenia, Macedonia, Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, the former USSR nations, too many nations in Africa to count.

Why do you have a different standard for the Jewish people and Israel?

 

[Shusha]

Whatever I think, no-one except the Israeli Jews believes that East Jerusalem is part of Israel.

Fortunately, international law does not depend on what people believe.

Why shouldn't the Old City and the Temple Mount belong to Israel? What reasons would you give?

 

[Eloy]

Whatever I think, no-one except the Israeli Jews believes that East Jerusalem is part of Israel.

Fortunately, international law does not depend on what people believe.

Why shouldn't the Old City and the Temple Mount belong to Israel? What reasons would you give?

"Why shouldn't the Old City and the Temple Mount belong to Israel?"
Because East Jerusalem in occupied territory, occupied by the Israelis who should go home, as directed to do so by the United Nations Security Council.