Should Israel repair the Temple.

[Eloy]

It was the intention of the United Nations that Jerusalem be an Open City under international sovereignty and neither part of an Arab nor Jewish state. That was and still is the best idea.

THAT, alone, is a drastic departure from customary international law.

Nevertheless, it was the plan which neither Arabs nor Jews have honored.

It was a plan which neither the Arabs nor the Jewish people agreed to -- which is the customary requirement of international law.

There has never BEEN a territory under some sort of international sovereignty. Both the Arabs and the Jews have good reason to question that concept.

I wrote the Jews, not the "Jewish people".

Your point being?!

The Jewish people live all over the world and have no connection to Israel unless they choose to do so. When I wrote "the Jews" in the context of the border of Israel, it was clear I mean 75% of Israelis who are Jewish and want to have a Jewish state, a state for Jews, not Israeli minorities such as Muslims or Christians. Reference to the Jews in this context deliberately avoids inclusion of the Jewish people who are not citizens of Israel but of other countries such as Iran, Ireland, and Italy.

 

[flacaltenn]

Not a single country in the world, including the Pacific Island of Nauru, accepts that Israel has any claim on East Jerusalem and the Noble Sanctuary.

1. International law is not a popularity contest. It matters not what bit what the "world" thinks. ...

International law is founded on principles .....

Yes. Yes, it is. And those principles should be followed. NONE of those principles allow for a popular vote on where borders between nations are. Only the nations involved have a right to determine borders.

You are incorrect; borders are not decided by belligerent states but by international treaty. The border of Israel was decided by the United Nations in 1948. It did not nor does it include Judea and Sumeria, including East Jerusalem nor Gaza.

Sure. Before the war when Israel could have marched into Amman or Cairo.. Conflict has consequences. You fight wars to PREVENT future conflict.

 

[Eloy]

It was the intention of the United Nations that Jerusalem be an Open City under international sovereignty and neither part of an Arab nor Jewish state. That was and still is the best idea.

THAT, alone, is a drastic departure from customary international law.

Nevertheless, it was the plan which neither Arabs nor Jews have honored.

It was a plan which neither the Arabs nor the Jewish people agreed to -- which is the customary requirement of international law.

There has never BEEN a territory under some sort of international sovereignty. Both the Arabs and the Jews have good reason to question that concept.

I wrote the Jews, not the "Jewish people".

So? International law is based on the premise of consent between Parties.

Fundamentally, Israel is considered a country, not because the Jews declared it to be so but because it succeeded in getting recognition from other countries (principally the USA for some reason) and eventually by the United Nations. It joined the UN and in so doing, the international community, with its border agreed. The Israel which is a member state of the UN is not the Israel that includes East Jerusalem, Judea and Samaria, and Gaza.

 

[Shusha]

Fundamentally, Israel is considered a country, not because the Jews declared it to be so but because it succeeded in getting recognition from other countries (principally the USA for some reason) and eventually by the United Nations. It joined the UN and in so doing, the international community, with its border agreed. The Israel which is a member state of the UN is not the Israel that includes East Jerusalem, Judea and Samaria, and Gaza.

blah, blah, blah, blah.

TREATIES make borders. What treaty makes a border between Israel and the non-existent "Palestine"?

 

[Eloy]

That border has never been changed by international treaty.

We agree. The border of Israel has NEVER been changed by international treaty.

Therefore, the border of Israel is that of 1948 with a subsequent change by treaty in 1967 between Jordan and Egypt. This did not give sovereignty to Israel over East Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, the Golan Heights, and Gaza.

 

[Shusha]

That border has never been changed by international treaty.

We agree. The border of Israel has NEVER been changed by international treaty.

Therefore, the border of Israel is that of 1948 with a subsequent change by treaty in 1967 between Jordan and Egypt. This did not give sovereignty to Israel over East Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, the Golan Heights, and Gaza.

Oh boy. Where to start.

The border between Jordan and Israel, by treaty, includes Judea and Samaria and East Jerusalem as part of Israel.

The border between Egypt and Israel, by treaty, includes Gaza as part of Israel.

 

[Eloy]

Fundamentally, Israel is considered a country, not because the Jews declared it to be so but because it succeeded in getting recognition from other countries (principally the USA for some reason) and eventually by the United Nations. It joined the UN and in so doing, the international community, with its border agreed. The Israel which is a member state of the UN is not the Israel that includes East Jerusalem, Judea and Samaria, and Gaza.

blah, blah, blah, blah.

TREATIES make borders. What treaty makes a border between Israel and the non-existent "Palestine"?

What happens beyond a country's border does not change the sovereignty rights of a country. Israel's border cannot change because another country, Jordan, ceded Palestinian territory to the indigenous Arabs in the Occupied Territories.

 

[Shusha]

Therefore, the border of Israel is that of 1948 with a subsequent change by treaty in 1967 between Jordan and Egypt. This did not give sovereignty to Israel over East Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, the Golan Heights, and Gaza.

No borders changed in 1948 or in 1967. Borders were established in 1923 (Treaty of Lausanne) and in 1979 and 1994 (Treaties with Egypt and Jordan, respectively).

 

[Eloy]

Not a single country in the world, including the Pacific Island of Nauru, accepts that Israel has any claim on East Jerusalem and the Noble Sanctuary.

1. International law is not a popularity contest. It matters not what bit what the "world" thinks. ...

International law is founded on principles .....

Yes. Yes, it is. And those principles should be followed. NONE of those principles allow for a popular vote on where borders between nations are. Only the nations involved have a right to determine borders.

You are incorrect; borders are not decided by belligerent states but by international treaty. The border of Israel was decided by the United Nations in 1948. It did not nor does it include Judea and Sumeria, including East Jerusalem nor Gaza.

Sure. Before the war when Israel could have marched into Amman or Cairo.. Conflict has consequences. You fight wars to PREVENT future conflict.

Hitler said as much when he invaded the Soviet Union.

 

[Shusha]

What happens beyond a country's border does not change the sovereignty rights of a country. Israel's border cannot change because another country, Jordan, ceded Palestinian territory to the indigenous Arabs in the Occupied Territories.

1. Jordan never had sovereignty over the territory, therefore could not cede it to anyone.

2. You can't cede territory to an entity which has no legal status.

You are woefully ignorant about how international law works.

 

[flacaltenn]

Oh shut up.


"What evidence is there that the Temple of Solomon existed?

The only evidence is the Bible. There are no other records describing it, and to date there has been no archaeological evidence of the Temple at all. What's more, other archaeological sites associated with King Solomon - palaces, fortresses and walled cities that seemed to match places and cities from the Bible - are also now in doubt.

There is a growing sense among scholars that most of these archaeological sites are actually later than previously believed. Some now believe there may be little or no archaeological evidence of King Solomon's time at all, and doubt that he ruled the vast empire which is described in the Bible."

BBC - Science & Nature - Horizon

And the site of the 1st Temple matters -- why??? Isn't 565 BC early enough for you??

 

[Eloy]

That border has never been changed by international treaty.

We agree. The border of Israel has NEVER been changed by international treaty.

Therefore, the border of Israel is that of 1948 with a subsequent change by treaty in 1967 between Jordan and Egypt. This did not give sovereignty to Israel over East Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, the Golan Heights, and Gaza.

Oh boy. Where to start.

The border between Jordan and Israel, by treaty, includes Judea and Samaria and East Jerusalem as part of Israel.

The border between Egypt and Israel, by treaty, includes Gaza as part of Israel.

You've got the wrong end of the stick there.

 

[flacaltenn]

1. International law is not a popularity contest. It matters not what bit what the "world" thinks. ...

International law is founded on principles .....

Yes. Yes, it is. And those principles should be followed. NONE of those principles allow for a popular vote on where borders between nations are. Only the nations involved have a right to determine borders.

You are incorrect; borders are not decided by belligerent states but by international treaty. The border of Israel was decided by the United Nations in 1948. It did not nor does it include Judea and Sumeria, including East Jerusalem nor Gaza.

Sure. Before the war when Israel could have marched into Amman or Cairo.. Conflict has consequences. You fight wars to PREVENT future conflict.

Hitler said as much when he invaded the Soviet Union.

Hitler wasn't simultaneously attacked by 5 hostile neighbors -- was he? Try harder..

 

[Eloy]

What happens beyond a country's border does not change the sovereignty rights of a country. Israel's border cannot change because another country, Jordan, ceded Palestinian territory to the indigenous Arabs in the Occupied Territories.

1. Jordan never have sovereignty over the territory, therefore could not cede it to anyone.

2. You can't cede territory to an entity which has no legal status.

You are woefully ignorant about how international law works.

Jordan occupied East Palestine (the West Bank, including East Jerusalem) and, as all occupiers must do, ceded control to the Palestinian people who alone have sovereignty over the Occupied Territories.

 

[Shusha]

You've got the wrong end of the stick there.

Wow. What a stunningly convincing argument. /sarcasm

 

[Eloy]

Therefore, the border of Israel is that of 1948 with a subsequent change by treaty in 1967 between Jordan and Egypt. This did not give sovereignty to Israel over East Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, the Golan Heights, and Gaza.

No borders changed in 1948 or in 1967. Borders were established in 1923 (Treaty of Lausanne) and in 1979 and 1994 (Treaties with Egypt and Jordan, respectively).

I'm sorry, you lost me there.

 

[Shusha]

Jordan occupied East Palestine (the West Bank, including East Jerusalem) and, as all occupiers must do, ceded control to the Palestinian people who alone have sovereignty over the Occupied Territories.

"East Palestine"?! What treaty created East Palestine and West Palestine? Who signed it? What were the agreements made? Who were the Parties to the agreement?

You are literally making stuff up from thin air. You brought up the concept of treaties making international law. What treaties are you using to make up this so-called international law?

 

[Shusha]

And Jordan did NOT cede control to the "Palestinian people". Have you even read the treaty? The treaty between Israel and Jordan confirms a border between their two nations. It says NOTHING about the "Palestinian people".

 

[Shusha]

I'm sorry, you lost me there.

Of course, I've lost you. You don't appear to have any knowledge about the treaties which form the basis of law with respect to this conflict. So you talk about 1948 as though a treaty was signed in that year. None was. And you talk about 1967 as though a treaty was signed in that year. None was. So why would you bring up 1948 or 1967?! There is no relevancy there because there are no treaties that apply signed in those years.

 

[Eloy]

International law is founded on principles .....

Yes. Yes, it is. And those principles should be followed. NONE of those principles allow for a popular vote on where borders between nations are. Only the nations involved have a right to determine borders.

You are incorrect; borders are not decided by belligerent states but by international treaty. The border of Israel was decided by the United Nations in 1948. It did not nor does it include Judea and Sumeria, including East Jerusalem nor Gaza.

Sure. Before the war when Israel could have marched into Amman or Cairo.. Conflict has consequences. You fight wars to PREVENT future conflict.

Hitler said as much when he invaded the Soviet Union.

Hitler wasn't simultaneously attacked by 5 hostile neighbors -- was he? Try harder..

Yes, he was. Before Hitler attacked the Soviet Union, Germany had been attacked by France, England with declarations of war by South Africa, Canada. Australia, New Zealand, Norwegian resistance partisans, Jugoslavia, Greece, and so forth.