Should Detroit's municipal retirees lose their pensions?

[syrenn]

I believe I've just trounced your butt in this conversation....you've been making remarks about unions based on nothing you know first hand...only a concept that's been fed to you by those who don't believe the working man has any right to a decent living. As long as it's conceptual you have no skin in the game and can look away when something like Detroit happens. Far from "melting" I feel sorry for you. Your life-experience isn't real until you've understood all perspectives...you don't and you know it and I just proved it.

I am sure you would like to think that...... so if it makes you feel good... keep thinking it. and yes, you did melt on a single question about non union labor..... you will live.

Be prepared next time you step to me....I don't like embarrassing women.

oohh.... threats.

 

[Harry Dresden]

The beneficiary of a crime, even if blameless, is still benefiting from a crime. This isnt exactly a crime, but it was a scam, a scam whos end result is finally here.

Said fireman also voted in those union leaders, and also those politicans supported by the union leaders. Ignorance of economics does not result in blamelessness.

so Marty.....you have worked for a place for 30 years,you are in your 60's and you are ready to hang it up.....then someone says sorry you dont get your pension.....do you just shrug and say.....oh no biggie.....i am 63.....in sure i can find a job....you know what Marty.....you work for a ******* place for 30 ******* years in good faith....10 years in no problems....15 years in no problems.....20 years in no problems......25 years in no problems.....now at 30 years ....oh there is a problem....no pension for ya....sorry.....that is chicken shit.....you work for it you get what was promised to ya if you put in the time asked....

the problem with that is..... people like that were paid every step of the way for the work they preformed.....


pensions are based on having the money to pay for it.... there is no money left.

Syrenn as far as i am concerned when you are 20 years old and you land a great job with a PENSION.....and here it is 30-40 years later and you are thinking about that retirement that you contributed too.....you get it.....i thing i have noticed is ....no one seems to give a flying ****....of course until they are the one whose pension is being pulled.....then all of a sudden,it makes a difference.....maybe everyone should just work until you drop dead on the job,throw your carcass in a pit and grab the next 20 year old to do it again....

 

[JoeBlam]

Before I get labeled "pro union" here, I should mention I don't believe unions have a place in professional occupations like teachers or service workers. I believe that the dangerous industries like auto manufacturing, mines, foundries, and textiles do have a need for union protection for worker safety. But doesn't OSHA cover that now you might ask? Sure, but not very closely when the GOP is in power. So there you have it....JoeBlam, union man, and right-to-work man.....depends on who's ox is getting gored is where I step in.

 

[Wyatt earp]

I believe I've just trounced your butt in this conversation....you've been making remarks about unions based on nothing you know first hand...only a concept that's been fed to you by those who don't believe the working man has any right to a decent living. As long as it's conceptual you have no skin in the game and can look away when something like Detroit happens. Far from "melting" I feel sorry for you. Your life-experience isn't real until you've understood all perspectives...you don't and you know it and I just proved it.

no you lost and going in melt down mode, you are happy that unions drove away 300,000 Detroit manufacturing jobs. You would rather that a person have no job if they didnt get paid Union scale with a job. and show a link that auto workers in the south are tied to the UAW

I'm from Detroit and you're an idiot....didn't I make that clear enough already?

the only thiing you made clear is your part of the problem, you want yours and **** anyone else that wants a job.

 

[JoeBlam]

and do you think you were the only one with family in the pacific theater?

Nobody who did would ever drive a Jap car is what I know. I never have. My uncle would have gone through Obama's SS to get at him for bowing to their ******* emperor.

My father was a Chief Petty Officer in the Navy. His ship was supposed to be docked at Pearl Harbor the day it was attacked, but they were delayed for a couple days (thank God). Guess what....I think there are more Japanese living on Oahu now than ever before! (And yes, it does piss off a lot of the locals).

Thank God he wasn't there...that was a turkey-shoot. They couldn't even open the safe at the Pentagon until the next morning to get at the war plans....time-locked. Luckily our carriers weren't at Pearl or California would have been next. The native Hawians aren't all that enamored with being Americans anymore.....they can't even seem to be able to find Hussein's birth certificate.

 

[JoeBlam]

no you lost and going in melt down mode, you are happy that unions drove away 300,000 Detroit manufacturing jobs. You would rather that a person have no job if they didnt get paid Union scale with a job. and show a link that auto workers in the south are tied to the UAW

I'm from Detroit and you're an idiot....didn't I make that clear enough already?

the only thiing you made clear is your part of the problem, you want yours and **** anyone else that wants a job.

 

[Wyatt earp]

Before I get labeled "pro union" here, I should mention I don't believe unions have a place in professional occupations like teachers or service workers. I believe that the dangerous industries like auto manufacturing, mines, foundries, and textiles do have a need for union protection for worker safety. But doesn't OSHA cover that now you might ask? Sure, but not very closely when the GOP is in power. So there you have it....JoeBlam, union man, and right-to-work man.....depends on who's ox is getting gored is where I step in.

You never even delt with OSHA like I have they are the biggest dumb ***** of all.. Oh yea you never delt with them personaly you were just an over paid Union operator.

 

[Harry Dresden]

Retirees that lose their pension benefits, depending on how much they lose,

may see in many cases their incomes fall to the point where they will become eligible for all sorts of state and federal income-based help,

such as Medicaid, food stamps, housing, heat/energy assistance, etc.

So the Detroit 'problem' will become a state and federal 'problem'.

50 years of Democrat policies & corruption will do that.

People will die because of bad management.

You're full of shit to make this a Democrat problem. There are cities all over the US that have been run by Democrats that are NOT going bankrupt.

Get your partisan pea-brain out of your partisan ass.

btw, remember Orange County, 1995? Republican conservative stronghold Orange County?

Bankrupt. Am I entitled to validly conclude from that that REPUBLICAN municipal management causes bankruptcies?

sorry to disapoint you Carb..........this is from the OC Archives.......

Robert Citron was a Democratic Party politician who was the longtime Treasurer-Tax Collector of Orange County, California, when it declared Chapter 9 bankruptcy on December 6, 1994.......Citron was the only Democrat to hold office in heavily Republican Orange County at the time. ........The bankruptcy was brought on by Citron's investment strategies, which seemed to be an effort to earn high incomes for the county without raising taxes through risky, leveraged positions in interest-rate derivative contracts......... The strategy paid out at first. In 1994, a cash crunch occurred when interest rates increased and financiers for the county required increased collateral from the county.....in his last election victory, his opponent, John Moorlach, charged that his handsome gains were the result of risky betting.....Citron controlled several Orange County funds including the General Fund, the Investment Pool, and the treasury Commingled Pool.......
As controller of the various Orange County funds, Citron had taken a highly leveraged position using repurchase agreements (repos) and floating rate notes (FRNs). The loss incurred by the use of these financial instruments reached the amount of $2 billion and was caused by being too highly leveraged for rising federal interest rates.In other words, if federal interest rates had not risen, the massive trading position would have been a substantially profitable position; if interest rates did rise, the trading position would result in substantial losses. In fact, rates rose.
The Orange County funds, managed by Citron, were worth $8 billion. However, Citron went out to the repo market and leveraged the County Pools to amounts ranging from 158% to over 292%. To obtain this degree of leverage, he used treasury bonds as collateral. Profits of the fund were excessive for a period of time and Citron resorted to concealing the excess earnings. He pleaded guilty to improperly transferring securities from the Orange County General Fund to the Orange County Treasury Commingled Pool......

The county's finances were not suspect until February 1994. The Federal Reserve Bank began to raise US interest rates, causing many securities in Orange County's investment pools to fall in value. As a result, dealers were requesting extra margin payments from Orange County. These extra margin payments were funded in part by another bond issue made by Orange County; the size of that bond issue was $600 million. However, this fix proved to be only temporary. In December 1994, Credit Suisse First Boston (CSFB) realized what was going on and blocked the "rolling over" of $1.25 billion in repos ("rollover" essentially means issuing another repo when the previous one ends, but at the new prevailing interest rate). At that point Orange County was left with no recourse other than to file for bankruptcy.
Facing 14 years in prison, Citron pled guilty to six felony counts and three special enhancements. Charges also included filing a false and misleading financial summary to participants purchasing securities in the Orange County Treasury Investment Pool.
While in bankruptcy, every county program budget was cut, about 3,000 public employees were discharged, and all services were reduced. Citron was sentenced to one year of work release, five years of supervised probation, and performed 1000 hours of community service.

 

[peach174]

Retirees that lose their pension benefits, depending on how much they lose,

may see in many cases their incomes fall to the point where they will become eligible for all sorts of state and federal income-based help,

such as Medicaid, food stamps, housing, heat/energy assistance, etc.

So the Detroit 'problem' will become a state and federal 'problem'.

50 years of Democrat policies & corruption will do that.

People will die because of bad management.

You're full of shit to make this a Democrat problem. There are cities all over the US that have been run by Democrats that are NOT going bankrupt.

Get your partisan pea-brain out of your partisan ass.

btw, remember Orange County, 1995? Republican conservative stronghold Orange County?

Bankrupt. Am I entitled to validly conclude from that that REPUBLICAN municipal management causes bankruptcies?

Really?
Robert Lafee Citron was a Democratic Party politician who was the longtime Treasurer-Tax Collector of Orange County, California, when it declared Chapter 9 bankruptcy on December 6, 1994. Citron was the only Democrat to hold office in heavily Republican Orange County at the time. The bankruptcy was brought on by Citron's investment strategies, which seemed to be an effort to earn high incomes for the county without raising taxes through risky, leveraged positions in interest-rate derivative contracts. The strategy paid out at first. In 1994, a cash crunch occurred when interest rates increased and financiers for the county required increased collateral from the county.

It seems that Democrats never think about what can happen in other scenarios before they do their policies.

 

[JoeBlam]

Before I get labeled "pro union" here, I should mention I don't believe unions have a place in professional occupations like teachers or service workers. I believe that the dangerous industries like auto manufacturing, mines, foundries, and textiles do have a need for union protection for worker safety. But doesn't OSHA cover that now you might ask? Sure, but not very closely when the GOP is in power. So there you have it....JoeBlam, union man, and right-to-work man.....depends on who's ox is getting gored is where I step in.

You never even delt with OSHA like I have they are the biggest dumb ***** of all.. Oh yea you never delt with them personaly you were just an over paid Union operator.

I've never belonged to a union. D'oh! But I did apprentice for a summer at Saginaw Steering Gear before I went in the Army. Brutal work....a guy about 10 feet from me got hit by a swinging steering box....killed instantly. They wouldn't close down the line. So the UAW steward told us to step off the line and we did and wouldn't return until there was another kill-swtich installed to stop shit like that from happening. We were all told we'd be fired....BULLSHIT....nobody got fired.

As far as OSHA goes, yeah, they told me to build a women's bathroom for my desk girl at one of my shops, or get fined $100 a day until I did. I had to let her go...that's OSHA. They didn't even look at the solvents and possible ignition sources in the back...just a drive-by and adios. So you see, once again you jump before you looked to see if there was any gators in the moat....

 

[Edgetho]

50 years of Democrat policies & corruption will do that.

People will die because of bad management.

You're full of shit to make this a Democrat problem. There are cities all over the US that have been run by Democrats that are NOT going bankrupt.

Get your partisan pea-brain out of your partisan ass.

btw, remember Orange County, 1995? Republican conservative stronghold Orange County?

Bankrupt. Am I entitled to validly conclude from that that REPUBLICAN municipal management causes bankruptcies?

Really?
Robert Lafee Citron was a Democratic Party politician who was the longtime Treasurer-Tax Collector of Orange County, California, when it declared Chapter 9 bankruptcy on December 6, 1994. Citron was the only Democrat to hold office in heavily Republican Orange County at the time. The bankruptcy was brought on by Citron's investment strategies, which seemed to be an effort to earn high incomes for the county without raising taxes through risky, leveraged positions in interest-rate derivative contracts. The strategy paid out at first. In 1994, a cash crunch occurred when interest rates increased and financiers for the county required increased collateral from the county.

dimocraps lie, it's what they do.

And they're stupid.

And they destroy things. Things like Cities. And States. And given the chance, an entire Country.

Not to mention, they destroy Jobs. And entire Industries.

And people's lives.

dimocraps are a cancer on Society.

The sooner we excise them and put them in the Garbage can of history, the better off the entire world will be.

 

[Wyatt earp]

Before I get labeled "pro union" here, I should mention I don't believe unions have a place in professional occupations like teachers or service workers. I believe that the dangerous industries like auto manufacturing, mines, foundries, and textiles do have a need for union protection for worker safety. But doesn't OSHA cover that now you might ask? Sure, but not very closely when the GOP is in power. So there you have it....JoeBlam, union man, and right-to-work man.....depends on who's ox is getting gored is where I step in.

You never even delt with OSHA like I have they are the biggest dumb ***** of all.. Oh yea you never delt with them personaly you were just an over paid Union operator.

I've never belonged to a union. D'oh! But I did apprentice for a summer at Saginaw Steering Gear before I went in the Army. Brutal work....a guy about 10 feet from me got hit by a swinging steering box....killed instantly. They wouldn't close down the line. So the UAW steward told us to step off the line and we did and wouldn't return until there was another kill-swtich installed to stop shit like that from happening. We were all told we'd be fired....BULLSHIT....nobody got fired.

As far as OSHA goes, yeah, they told me to build a women's bathroom for my desk girl at one of my shops, or get fined $100 a day until I did. I had to let her go...that's OSHA. They didn't even look at the solvents and possible ignition sources in the back...just a drive-by and adios. So you see, once again you jump before you looked to see if there was any gators in the moat....

I guess but your the one who implyed you worked for UAW, btw I used to race small outboards, raced a few times up in Saginaw on the river hated that town lol...

 

[Wry Catcher]

Contract law is not simple, and since the parsimonious callous conservatives don't care about others, popular opinion is that those government workers who toiled for decades should be denied the fruits of their labor. I have no doubt that the Tea Party Members of Congress would happily revoke and declare null and void all contracts which included pensions for those working and those already retired. Of course as Congress does, that would not include their own.

Taking from others is a simple solution for simple minds, such minds have proven such on this thread (and many others). The reality is they too will suffer. It doesn't take a genius to figure out the consequences of such a policy; those who actually think about the impact of such a policy understands its impact.

Alot of words, and no solution to the problem.

Although I know what your solution will be. "Have someone else pay for it"

No Marty, the solution is for government to honor its commitments. You're one of those, are you not, who whines about a loss of personal responsibility.

The solutions is simple. Government should abide by their commitments and establish fiscally responsible policies and engage in fiscally responsible contracts keeping the vision statement for the nation - the Preamble - in focus and our First Presidents:

"As a very important source of strength and security, cherish public credit. One method of preserving it is, to use it as sparingly as possible; avoiding occasions of expense by cultivating peace, but remembering also that timely disbursements to prepare for danger frequently prevent much greater disbursements to repel it; avoiding likewise the accumulation of debt, not only by shunning occasions of expense, but by vigorous exertions in time of peace to discharge the debts, which unavoidable wars may have occasioned, not ungenerously throwing upon posterity the burthen, which we ourselves ought to bear."


GEORGE WASHINGTON, Farewell Address, Sep. 17, 1796

 

[Avatar4321]

Retirees that lose their pension benefits, depending on how much they lose,

may see in many cases their incomes fall to the point where they will become eligible for all sorts of state and federal income-based help,

such as Medicaid, food stamps, housing, heat/energy assistance, etc.

So the Detroit 'problem' will become a state and federal 'problem'.

50 years of Democrat policies & corruption will do that.

People will die because of bad management.

You're full of shit to make this a Democrat problem. There are cities all over the US that have been run by Democrats that are NOT going bankrupt.

Get your partisan pea-brain out of your partisan ass.

btw, remember Orange County, 1995? Republican conservative stronghold Orange County?

Bankrupt. Am I entitled to validly conclude from that that REPUBLICAN municipal management causes bankruptcies?

50 years of Democrat rule means somehow Republicans are to blame for the problem.

If Republicans had 50 years of rule then yes they would be responsible too.

Not really rocket science.

 

[JoeBlam]

You never even delt with OSHA like I have they are the biggest dumb ***** of all.. Oh yea you never delt with them personaly you were just an over paid Union operator.

I've never belonged to a union. D'oh! But I did apprentice for a summer at Saginaw Steering Gear before I went in the Army. Brutal work....a guy about 10 feet from me got hit by a swinging steering box....killed instantly. They wouldn't close down the line. So the UAW steward told us to step off the line and we did and wouldn't return until there was another kill-swtich installed to stop shit like that from happening. We were all told we'd be fired....BULLSHIT....nobody got fired.

As far as OSHA goes, yeah, they told me to build a women's bathroom for my desk girl at one of my shops, or get fined $100 a day until I did. I had to let her go...that's OSHA. They didn't even look at the solvents and possible ignition sources in the back...just a drive-by and adios. So you see, once again you jump before you looked to see if there was any gators in the moat....

I guess but your the one who implyed you worked for UAW, btw I used to race small outboards, raced a few times up in Saginaw on the river hated that town lol...

You'd think Saginaw was paradise if you'd ever been to Flint.

My whole family was connected to auto manufacturing in one way or another so I know the business inside and out. Folks forget who designed and bought the materials for the miserable cars they built in the 70's and 80's...that was on management, not the guys on the line. Hell, Japan jumped us with new factories, new lathes, computer-designed parts, and a workforce in their early 20's with little healthcare and zero pension expenses. Plus they got a cat named Demming who Detroit wouldn't listen to, that went to the Nips and taught them a superior management style. Meanwhile in Detroit, the designers and engineers were on opposite sides of the city and hated each other. If a suit got caught on the factory floor he'd likely get a couple wrenches thrown at him from somewhere in the back....Ross Perot couldn't even straighten them out...why wouild they buy EDS or Hughes in the first place? Nobody knew. Then along came the oil embargo and Hondas and Detroit couldn't figure out what to do other than rely on customer loyalty....that only worked so long, but the execs kept taking their millions in bonuses while the companies bled red ink. Only thing Obama has done right is give them a second chance and you know what? They're making world-class cars again and selling them all over the world.

 

[peach174]

50 years of Democrat policies & corruption will do that.

People will die because of bad management.

You're full of shit to make this a Democrat problem. There are cities all over the US that have been run by Democrats that are NOT going bankrupt.

Get your partisan pea-brain out of your partisan ass.

btw, remember Orange County, 1995? Republican conservative stronghold Orange County?

Bankrupt. Am I entitled to validly conclude from that that REPUBLICAN municipal management causes bankruptcies?

50 years of Democrat rule means somehow Republicans are to blame for the problem.

If Republicans had 50 years of rule then yes they would be responsible too.

Not really rocket science.

The difference is if it had been Republicans, republican voters would see that it was Repubs that were responsible and not put the blame on to the Dems.

 

[ShootSpeeders]

This is what happens when everyone gets free stuff. If you work for a private company that goes belly up, what happens to your pension?? Why should government be any different?

.

Obozo thinks govt workers are the most important workers in america!!! Everyone else knows they are the least important. Nothing but parasites living off the real workers. Esp these AA hires.

 

[g5000]

Oh, boy. When I guessed that Detroit's situation would be similar to Jefferson County Alabama's situation, I hit the nail on the head!

Check this out: Ronald Zajac, General Counsel of Detroit’s Pension Funds, and Paul Stewart, Former Pension Fund Trustee, Indicted in Bribery Conspiracy

Ronald Zajac, of Northville, Michigan, the general counsel of Detroit’s two pension funds, and Paul Stewart, of Detroit, Michigan, a former trustee of Detroit’s Police and Fire Retirement System, were both charged today in a superseding indictment with participating in a bribery and kickback conspiracy involving over $200 million in investments before the two city of Detroit pension funds United States Attorney Barbara L. McQuade announced today.

This is exactly what happened in Alabama. Some Wall Street banks (JP Morgan, primarily) bribed public officials to enter into swaps agreements which blew up in the taxpayers' faces.

Not one single banker went to jail. Not one.

But the public officials were prosecuted.

This is what I mean when I say time and time again the real crooks (bank fraudsters) are receiving police protection while they steal from you.

According to the 13-count superseding indictment, between January 2006 and April 2009, defendants Zajac and Stewart conspired with Beasley, Dixon, and other individuals to defraud current and retired employees of the city of Detroit of their right to the honest services of former Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick, Beasley, Stewart, and other trustees free from bribery and corruption. During the the conspiracy, Stewart accepted thousands of dollars in cash, trips, entertainment, and other things of value from people seeking investments from the Police and Fire Retirement System. Stewart accepted a $5,000 casino chip, a Christmas basket that included an envelope with thousands of dollars in cash, a cash payment of $2,500 during a trip to New York City, a cash payment of $2,500 during a trip to Florida, an excursion to the Bahamas for Stewart and his mistress, and a trip to Naples, Florida, for Stewart and his mistress. In addition, Stewart accepted a “birthday present” of $5,000 in cash at a party at the Atheneum Hotel. Zajac organized the party, and Zajac solicited and collected the cash from people having business before the Boards of Trustees of the pension funds. Zajac also collected and delivered an additional $5,000 in cash for a second pension fund trustee at the same party. At a party in January 2007, Zajac collected and delivered thousands of dollars in cash for former Treasurer and Trustee Beasley.

Notice how this FBI page does not mention WHO PAID THE BRIBES. They just refer to them as "people seeking investments from the Police and Fire Retirement System".

Why are these "people" not under indictment?

Things that make you go, "Hmmmmm..."

 

[Caroljo]

and do you think you were the only one with family in the pacific theater?

Nobody who did would ever drive a Jap car is what I know. I never have. My uncle would have gone through Obama's SS to get at him for bowing to their ******* emperor.

really...nobody? You speak for that many?

My dad never would either.....but my daughter drives a Toyota Camry and absolutely loves it! They're known for getting over 400,000 miles if you take care of it!

 

[ShootSpeeders]

[No Marty, the solution is for government to honor its commitments. You're one of those, are you not, who whines about a loss of personal responsibility.
]

Hey stupid. The govt is not the one that's gonna pay for this. The money will be taken from other taxpayers. Now if you want to take the money only from other govt workers such as members of congress, then we many have something.