Shootings in Britain

[2aguy]

Truth, facts, and reality? Three concepts it is obvious that you are unable to grasp, especially as those are three words that basically all mean the same thing.



No they don't. This is not a fact, but an extrapolation based on a discredited telephone survey. The actual figure could be 10 times that or 1/10th of that; there are no official records or statistics to confirm or deny that figure. The claim you keep making is pure BS.



Pathetic attempt to twist what I said.



How do you know the guns used were "illegal"? You don't have gun control so you have no way of telling. Anyone with a gun in America is law abiding until they use their gun for criminal puropses.

Oh by the way, where in your 2nd ammendment, does it state, "except for criminals"?

Wrong...dipshit....that 1.2 number is directly from the Centers for Disease Control. In fact, it is only one of about 17 studies on the topic.....so you don't know what you are talking about.

The research...including the CDC under barak obama, and the Department of Justice under bill clinton........

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....

The name of the group doing the study, the year of the study, the number of defensive gun uses and if police and military defensive gun uses are included.....notice the bill clinton and obama defensive gun use research is highlighted.....

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, no military)

DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, no military)

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, no military)

Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, no military)

CDC...1996-1998... 1.1 million averaged over those years.( no cops, no military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, no military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, no military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops,no military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, no military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. Journal of Quantitative Criminology, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer


-------------------------------------------

Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, no military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..

...and that proves conclusively that all you have is guesses, not facts. There is no hard data to prove or disprove your theories. The 1.2 figure is an unsubstantiated assertion.

Backed by 17 other studies by both the government an private research groups.......including the Centers for Disease Control and the Department of Justice.....filled with anti-gunners....

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....

The name of the group doing the study, the year of the study, the number of defensive gun uses and if police and military defensive gun uses are included.....notice the bill clinton and obama defensive gun use research is highlighted.....

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, no military)

DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, no military)

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, no military)

Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, no military)

CDC...1996-1998... 1.1 million averaged over those years.( no cops, no military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, no military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, no military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops,no military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, no military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. Journal of Quantitative Criminology, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer


-------------------------------------------

Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, no military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..

 

[2aguy]

Gun related deaths per 100,000 population.

USA 12.21
UK 0.23

France 2.83
Canada 2.00
Sweden 1.6
Italy 1.31
Germany 1.17
Australia 0.9
Japan 0.6
Spain 0.31

With a population of 333546000 in the USA. That works out at 40,000 gun deaths per annum.

Coronavirus deaths in comparison work out at 98,000,- true that is more than twice as many, but gun deaths happen every year. Considering the lengths gone to, to stop Corona, isn't it time a total ban on guns was taken to bring the USA in line with what we consider to be a civilized society.

No, actually that number is way off....according to the FBI


Expanded Homicide Data Table 8

2018...

Gun.....

2018........10,265 ...

2017...11,006....

2016, 10,372

 

[2aguy]

Gun related deaths per 100,000 population.

USA 12.21
UK 0.23

France 2.83
Canada 2.00
Sweden 1.6
Italy 1.31
Germany 1.17
Australia 0.9
Japan 0.6
Spain 0.31

With a population of 333546000 in the USA. That works out at 40,000 gun deaths per annum.

Coronavirus deaths in comparison work out at 98,000,- true that is more than twice as many, but gun deaths happen every year. Considering the lengths gone to, to stop Corona, isn't it time a total ban on guns was taken to bring the USA in line with what we consider to be a civilized society.

Okay....genius....please explain how it is that as more Americans both own and actually carry guns, our gun crime rate went down 75%......how does your number crunching factor that?

How does your number crunching factor in the fact that as more Americans own and carry guns our gun murder rate went down 49%....

You can't explain it with what you feeeelz about guns....

The real world shows you don't know what you are talking about...

Over the last 27 years, we went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 18.6 million people carrying guns for self defense in 2018...guess what happened...


-- gun murder down 49%

--gun crime down 75%

--violent crime down 72%

Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware

Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.



The anti-gun hypothesis and argument.....

More Guns = More Gun crime regardless of any other factors.

Actual Result:

In the U.S....as more Americans own and carry guns over the last 26 years, gun murder down 49%, gun crime down 75%, violent crime down 72%

The result: Exact opposite of theory of anti-gunners....

In Science when you have a theory, when that theory is tested....and the exact opposite result happens...that means your theory is wrong. That is science....not left wing wishful thinking.



Whatever the crime rate does......as more Americans owned more guns the crime rate did not go up....so again...



Britain...
Less Guns = Same Gun Crime

Britain had access to guns before they banned them.....they had low gun crime, low gun murder.

They banned guns, the gun murder rate spiked for 10 years then returned to the same level...

Your Theory again....

More guns = More Gun Crime

Guns Banned creates no change? That means banning guns for law abiding gun owners had no effect on gun crime.

When your theory states one thing, and you implement your theory, and nothing changes....in science, that means your theory is wrong...
-------


Maine tops ‘safest states’ rankings four years after removing major gun restriction

When Maine passed a “Constitutional Carry” law allowing Maine residents to carry a concealed firearm without any special permit in 2015, opponents of the law forecast a dangerous future for the state. They said the new law would hurt public safety and put Maine kids at risk.



One state representative who opposed the bill went so far as to say it would give Mainers a reason to be afraid every time they went out in public or to work.

Another state representative suggested the law would lead to violent criminals with recent arrests and convictions legally carrying handguns.


-----

Now four years later, Maine has been named the safest state in the nation according to US News and World Report’s public safety rankings, which measures the fifty states based on crime data.



Ranking as the top safest state for violent crime and fourth for property crime, Maine edges out another New England state, Vermont, for the top spot. Of note, Vermont also is a “Constitutional Carry” state. New Hampshire ranks third in the national rankings, giving New England all three of the top spots in the nation.

In 2018, Maine was edged out by Vermont in the same “safest states” ranking, but declared the best state overall in the broader “Crime and Corrections” category.

In 2017, using a different methodology, Maine was ranked second among the fifty states in the “Crime and Corrections” category and also second in the categories used to rank the “safest states.”

The U.S. News and World Report “Best States” rankings are built in partnership with McKinsey & Company, a firm that works closely with state leaders around the nation.

Maine has also ranked at the top of other state rankings. WalletHub.com recently ranked Maine second in “Personal and Residential Safety” among the fifty states, and third overall.
=============

Bolsonaro's Brazil, More Legal Guns, Homicide Rates Down Precipitously

In December, 2018, in an article published by the Wall Street Journal, this pronouncement was made. From the wsj.com:

Now, Brazil is set to embark on an experiment that will determine what happens when you loosen gun restrictions in a country battling an overpowering wave of gun crime.

Homicides in Brazil were at historic highs in 2017. They dropped a bit in 2018, as candidate Bolsonaro ran on reform of the gun laws to allow self defense, and reform of the law to get tough on crime. The homicide numbers dropped from 59,000 in 2017, to 51,000 in 2018. President Bolsonaro was elected in October of 2018.

After taking office on 1 January, 2019, President Bolsonaro issued his first decree reforming some of Brazil's extreme gun laws on 15 January, 2019. The drop in Brazil's homicide rate accelerated.
-------

Early in the Bolsonaro presidency, a Brazilian lawyer prediceted the homicide rate would drop. From ammoland.com:

César Mello, asked that I include information that early reports are showing a 25% drop in Brazil's homicide rate, in the first quarter of 2019. If this trend continues, 16,000 lives will have been saved in the first year of President Bolsonaro's time in office.

The rate reduction was not quite that high. Only 10,000 lives were saved. From wtop.com:

Brazil had 41,635 killings in 2019, down 19% from the prior year and the least number of homicides since 2007, when the so-called Violence Monitor index was launched. It is a partnership between the non-profit Brazilian Forum of Public Security, the University of Sao Paulo’s Center for the Study of Violence, and news website G1, which published the data Friday.

When translated to homicide rates, the rate dropped 17% in 2018, then 23% more in 2019. The population of Brazil in 2019 was 210 million. The rate of homicides per 100,000 was 19.83. That is less than 2/3 of the homicide rate in 2017, which was 30.8.

 

[2aguy]

But....But.....they have gun control in Britain......right? Then how did this baby get shot in the head in a country that banned handguns?

4 people shot in the middle of a street in Britain..........in gun controlled Britain....

A two-year-old boy who was shot in the head survived after the bullet missed a crucial artery by 1mm, his family have revealed, as they appealed for anyone with information on the shooting to come forward.

The toddler was one of four people, including his mother, who were shot in Energen Close, Harlesden, north-west London, on 3 June.

London family appeals for information after toddler shot in head

Two-year-old survived shooting in Harlesden after bullet missed artery by 1mm

www.theguardian.com

Exactly. I’ve been rattling this cage for years.

Concerning gun control, after the last terrorist shooting at the Strasbourg Christmas Market, I went and asked the German police where the guns came from. They told me there’s a huge black market for them. Right across Europe.

People walk around in blinkers. They see what they want to see.

The preferred weapon of criminal gangs in Europe is the fully automatic military rifle......they also like hand grenades in Sweden....

The weapons used in the Paris Bataclan attacks were three assault rifles, Soviet-made pistols and a Skorpion submachine gun.

And in the meantime, the terrorists had been driving up and down between Paris and Brussels (the hotbed). No border controls or checks between countries.

Yes that's why France has the worst gun death ratio in Europe.
All hand guns and assault rifles are banned in the UK and they are not easy to smuggle in across the channel.

And the British police say different...

Police struggle to stop flood of firearms into UK

Police and border officials are struggling to stop a rising supply of illegal firearms being smuggled into Britain, a senior police chief has warned.

Chief constable Andy Cooke, the national police lead for serious and organised crime, said law enforcement had seen an increased supply of guns over the past year, and feared that it would continue in 2019

The Guardian has learned that the situation is so serious that the National Crime Agency has taken the rare step of using its legal powers to direct every single police force to step up the fight against illegal guns.

The NCA has used tasking powers to direct greater intelligence about firearms to be gathered by all 43 forces in England and Wales.

Another senior law enforcement official said that “new and clean” weapons were now being used in the majority of shootings, as opposed to guns once being so difficult to obtain that they would be “rented out” to be used in multiple crimes.

Cooke, the Merseyside chief constable, told the Guardian: “We in law enforcement expect the rise in new firearms to continue. We are doing all we can. We are not in a position to stop it anytime soon.

“Law enforcement is more joined up now than before, but the scale of the problem is such that despite a number of excellent firearms seizures, I expect the rise in supply to be a continuing issue.”

The increasing supply of guns belies problems with UK border security and innovations by organised crime gangs.

Smugglers have increasingly found new ways and innovative routes to get guns past border defences.

Cooke said that the dynamics of the streets of British cities had changed and that criminals were more willing to use guns: “If they bring them in people will buy them. It’s a kudos thing for organised criminals.”

Simon Brough, head of firearms at the NCA, said: “The majority of guns being used are new, clean firearms ... which indicates a relatively fluid supply.”

He said shotguns were 40% of the total, with an increase in burglaries to try and steal them.

Handguns are the next biggest category, most often smuggled in from overseas, with ferry ports such as Dover being a popular entry point into the UK for organised crime groups:

“We’re doing a lot to fight back against it,” Brough said, adding that compared to other European countries, the availability in the UK was relatively lower.
==========

 

[2aguy]

1.2 number is directly from the Centers for Disease Control.

Wrong...dipshit....that 1.2 number is directly from the Centers for Disease Control.

No it isn't, and you know it.

And more stories....people under direct attack by violent criminals, they are not cops they are not SEALs, and yet under the extreme pressure of violent assault, they manage to use their legal guns to stop the attacks.......men, women and children, of all ages.......you don't know anything about this topic......or about normal people who own and carry guns.....

Blah, blah, blah. Anecdotes are meaningless, unless you can provide 1.2 million of them for scrutiny. If you want counter "evidence", look no further than this site: https://concealedcarrykillers.org/

" Currently, Concealed Carry Killers documents 1,140 incidents in 40 states and the District of Columbia resulting in 1,371 deaths. In 89 percent of the incidents (1,020) the concealed carry killer committed suicide (534), has already been convicted (404), perpetrated a murder-suicide (62), or was killed in the incident (20). Of the 81 cases still pending, the vast majority (68 of concealed carry killers have been charged with criminal homicide, four were deemed incompetent to stand trial, and nine incidents are still under investigation. An additional 39 incidents were fatal unintentional shootings involving the gun of the concealed handgun permit holder. Twenty-four of the victims were law enforcement officers. Thirty-five of the incidents were mass shootings, resulting in the deaths of 167 victims. "

...and that's just those people who owned guns legally.

Oh, and by the way, I'm an ex- gun owner. When it was legal to do so, I owned three handguns, a Glock, a Baretta and a H&K, was a member of two shooting clubs; one target shooting, the other "practical" shooting. I'm also ex-military so in my time I've fired every caliber of weapon from .22 to a 120mm tank gun, so I contend I have some knowledge.

Do you understand that the statistics you just posted are wrong?

You pick the one study that is a lie...good job....

Then you have to explain how it is that as more Americans now carry guns for self defense our gun murder rate went down 49%...

How do you explain that....you twit.

Massive errors in the Violence Policy Center’s “Concealed Carry Killers”

The Violence Policy Center regularly puts out the claim that concealed handgun permit holders are a danger to themselves and others. Right now they claim that concealed handgun permits have been re…

crimeresearch.org

The Violence Policy Center regularly puts out the claim that concealed handgun permit holders are a danger to themselves and others.

Right now they claim that concealed handgun permits have been responsible for 636 deaths from the entire United States over almost seven years from May 2007 to March 2014. John Lott has pointed out errors in the VPC numbers for Florida, so here let’s take the errors in just one state Michigan.

— In the Michigan state reports on concealed handgun permit holders that are cited by the VPC, 185 people died of suicides during the four reports from 2007 through 2012. That is 29 percent of the purported 636 deaths for the entire United States that the Violence Policy Center attributes to permitted concealed handguns.

But there is the problem: If you look at page 2 in the latest report, you will see that the 28 suicides do not list a cause of death. The report merely notes that permit holders committed suicide.

We don’t know if they committed suicide with a gun and if it was a gun, that it was the gun that they carried concealed. Given that the overwhelming majority of these suicides were presumably at home, like the vast majority of suicides, it isn’t even clear why a concealed handgun permit is relevant.

The suicide rate among permit holders in Michigan in 2012/13 (6.2 per 100,000 = ((28/450,000)*100,000) is about 62% lower than the suicide rate in the general adult population (see screen shot of suicide rate numbers from the CDC for adults in Michigan).
-----

In other words, during 2007–08, five cases were pending and there were no convictions. The Violence Policy Center makes several fundamental mistakes. First, it can’t add simple numbers up correctly. While the VPC claims 20 pending cases and 14 convictions, the Michigan State Police report a total of 14 and 11 cases respectively.

f you include both pending and convicted cases for all these years, you are going to obviously double count cases. Obviously, some pending cases end in convictions. The problem is clearly even worse than that as many cases will be pending over multiple years. So if you have a news story on a case and then the case is pending for several years before the permit holder is found to have acted in justifiable self-defense, you will count one case as four bad cases when it shouldn’t have even been counted one time.

 

[2aguy]

1.2 number is directly from the Centers for Disease Control.

Wrong...dipshit....that 1.2 number is directly from the Centers for Disease Control.

No it isn't, and you know it.

And more stories....people under direct attack by violent criminals, they are not cops they are not SEALs, and yet under the extreme pressure of violent assault, they manage to use their legal guns to stop the attacks.......men, women and children, of all ages.......you don't know anything about this topic......or about normal people who own and carry guns.....

Blah, blah, blah. Anecdotes are meaningless, unless you can provide 1.2 million of them for scrutiny. If you want counter "evidence", look no further than this site: https://concealedcarrykillers.org/

" Currently, Concealed Carry Killers documents 1,140 incidents in 40 states and the District of Columbia resulting in 1,371 deaths. In 89 percent of the incidents (1,020) the concealed carry killer committed suicide (534), has already been convicted (404), perpetrated a murder-suicide (62), or was killed in the incident (20). Of the 81 cases still pending, the vast majority (68 of concealed carry killers have been charged with criminal homicide, four were deemed incompetent to stand trial, and nine incidents are still under investigation. An additional 39 incidents were fatal unintentional shootings involving the gun of the concealed handgun permit holder. Twenty-four of the victims were law enforcement officers. Thirty-five of the incidents were mass shootings, resulting in the deaths of 167 victims. "

...and that's just those people who owned guns legally.

Oh, and by the way, I'm an ex- gun owner. When it was legal to do so, I owned three handguns, a Glock, a Baretta and a H&K, was a member of two shooting clubs; one target shooting, the other "practical" shooting. I'm also ex-military so in my time I've fired every caliber of weapon from .22 to a 120mm tank gun, so I contend I have some knowledge.

Yes.......you are a gun owner who supports guns being confiscated....goody for you.....so did the mass murderers in Germany...........who murdered 12 million unarmed men, women and children....

Again....

We went from 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997 to over 18.2 million people actually carrying guns for self defense in 2018...

Gun murder dropped 49%...

How.....do.....you....explain.......that.....?

Gun crime dropped 75%....

How......do.......you.....explain......that....?


Violent crime dropped 72%....


How......do......you.....explain......that....?

You don't know what you are talking about....

 

[2aguy]

1.2 number is directly from the Centers for Disease Control.

Wrong...dipshit....that 1.2 number is directly from the Centers for Disease Control.

No it isn't, and you know it.

And more stories....people under direct attack by violent criminals, they are not cops they are not SEALs, and yet under the extreme pressure of violent assault, they manage to use their legal guns to stop the attacks.......men, women and children, of all ages.......you don't know anything about this topic......or about normal people who own and carry guns.....

Blah, blah, blah. Anecdotes are meaningless, unless you can provide 1.2 million of them for scrutiny. If you want counter "evidence", look no further than this site: https://concealedcarrykillers.org/

" Currently, Concealed Carry Killers documents 1,140 incidents in 40 states and the District of Columbia resulting in 1,371 deaths. In 89 percent of the incidents (1,020) the concealed carry killer committed suicide (534), has already been convicted (404), perpetrated a murder-suicide (62), or was killed in the incident (20). Of the 81 cases still pending, the vast majority (68 of concealed carry killers have been charged with criminal homicide, four were deemed incompetent to stand trial, and nine incidents are still under investigation. An additional 39 incidents were fatal unintentional shootings involving the gun of the concealed handgun permit holder. Twenty-four of the victims were law enforcement officers. Thirty-five of the incidents were mass shootings, resulting in the deaths of 167 victims. "

...and that's just those people who owned guns legally.

Oh, and by the way, I'm an ex- gun owner. When it was legal to do so, I owned three handguns, a Glock, a Baretta and a H&K, was a member of two shooting clubs; one target shooting, the other "practical" shooting. I'm also ex-military so in my time I've fired every caliber of weapon from .22 to a 120mm tank gun, so I contend I have some knowledge.

This is how bad your source is you twit...

Your source......

You thus have 12 cases for just Michigan that are triple counted.

In addition, the reason that many of the arrests don’t result in a conviction is that people were found to have acted in self-defense.

If someone uses a gun defensively in public, they are going to be arrested and detained by police until an investigation has been done. Including those cases and news stories about those arrests, thus double counts cases that shouldn’t even be included in the total — if anything they should be counted as benefits from concealed carry, not costs.

Massive errors in the Violence Policy Center’s “Concealed Carry Killers”

The Violence Policy Center regularly puts out the claim that concealed handgun permit holders are a danger to themselves and others. Right now they claim that concealed handgun permits have been re…

crimeresearch.org

 

[Vagabond63]

Truth, facts, and reality? Three concepts it is obvious that you are unable to grasp, especially as those are three words that basically all mean the same thing.



No they don't. This is not a fact, but an extrapolation based on a discredited telephone survey. The actual figure could be 10 times that or 1/10th of that; there are no official records or statistics to confirm or deny that figure. The claim you keep making is pure BS.



Pathetic attempt to twist what I said.



How do you know the guns used were "illegal"? You don't have gun control so you have no way of telling. Anyone with a gun in America is law abiding until they use their gun for criminal puropses.

Oh by the way, where in your 2nd ammendment, does it state, "except for criminals"?

Wrong...dipshit....that 1.2 number is directly from the Centers for Disease Control. In fact, it is only one of about 17 studies on the topic.....so you don't know what you are talking about.

The research...including the CDC under barak obama, and the Department of Justice under bill clinton........

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....

The name of the group doing the study, the year of the study, the number of defensive gun uses and if police and military defensive gun uses are included.....notice the bill clinton and obama defensive gun use research is highlighted.....

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, no military)

DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, no military)

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, no military)

Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, no military)

CDC...1996-1998... 1.1 million averaged over those years.( no cops, no military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, no military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, no military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops,no military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, no military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. Journal of Quantitative Criminology, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer


-------------------------------------------

Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, no military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..

...and that proves conclusively that all you have is guesses, not facts. There is no hard data to prove or disprove your theories. The 1.2 figure is an unsubstantiated assertion.

Backed by 17 other studies by both the government an private research groups.......including the Centers for Disease Control and the Department of Justice.....filled with anti-gunners....

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....

The name of the group doing the study, the year of the study, the number of defensive gun uses and if police and military defensive gun uses are included.....notice the bill clinton and obama defensive gun use research is highlighted.....

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, no military)

DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, no military)

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, no military)

Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, no military)

CDC...1996-1998... 1.1 million averaged over those years.( no cops, no military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, no military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, no military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops,no military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, no military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. Journal of Quantitative Criminology, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer


-------------------------------------------

Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, no military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..

Repeating the same thing over and over again will not make it any more than an unsubstantiated assertion. These studies are "exrapolations" based on telephone polling, basically anecdotal. They prove nothing. All they are, are guesses, not facts.

 

[Vagabond63]

Do you understand that the statistics you just posted are wrong?

I wasn't providing statistics, I was providing one example of "evidence" that contradicts yours, it's easy. All you have is guesswork, not facts. Oh and as for quoting John Lott from 2014, please.

 

[Vagabond63]

Again....

I suggest you read your own source, it adequately explains possible reasons for the fall in gun crime since the 1990's, gun ownership as a contributing factor seems to be missing from their explanation.

 

[Vagabond63]

And the British police say different...

No they don't, just one Chief Constable using emotive language to get more resources from successive Conservative governments who have cut police funding year on year.

 

[Vagabond63]

Yes.......you are a gun owner who supports guns being confiscated....goody for you.....so did the mass murderers in Germany...........who murdered 12 million unarmed men, women and children....

Who says I support guns being confiscated? I handed my guns and ammunition in and got paid their fair market value; I didn't lose out financially. Although dissappointed and upset at the time, I came to realise that a handgun free society was a much safer place than before. True I didn't have handguns, but then again neither did anyone else like Thomas Hamilton or Michael Ryan.

As for the Nazis, that's just an NRA wankfest which has been debunked as far back as 2004, but you still keep repeating the same BS. Grow up, would you please.

 

[2aguy]

Yes.......you are a gun owner who supports guns being confiscated....goody for you.....so did the mass murderers in Germany...........who murdered 12 million unarmed men, women and children....

Who says I support guns being confiscated? I handed my guns and ammunition in and got paid their fair market value; I didn't lose out financially. Although dissappointed and upset at the time, I came to realise that a handgun free society was a much safer place than before. True I didn't have handguns, but then again neither did anyone else like Thomas Hamilton or Michael Ryan.

As for the Nazis, that's just an NRA wankfest which has been debunked as far back as 2004, but you still keep repeating the same BS. Grow up, would you please.

You don't believe in the Holocaust? That they murdered 12 million innocent men, women and children?

 

[2aguy]

Again....

I suggest you read your own source, it adequately explains possible reasons for the fall in gun crime since the 1990's, gun ownership as a contributing factor seems to be missing from their explanation.

And, you fail to understand what the fall in gun crime and gun murder, in the face of more Americans owning and carrying weapons actually means..........

It means that normal people owning and carrying guns does not increase the gun crime and gun murder rate...

That means something else causes gun crime and gun murder to go up.....and here in the U.S. it is the policies of the democrat party...when they continue to release violent, repeat gun offenders over and over again.....

You will understand it better since your drug gangs are on course to increase their violence and gun crime........

 

[Vagabond63]

Yes.......you are a gun owner who supports guns being confiscated....goody for you.....so did the mass murderers in Germany...........who murdered 12 million unarmed men, women and children....

Who says I support guns being confiscated? I handed my guns and ammunition in and got paid their fair market value; I didn't lose out financially. Although dissappointed and upset at the time, I came to realise that a handgun free society was a much safer place than before. True I didn't have handguns, but then again neither did anyone else like Thomas Hamilton or Michael Ryan.

As for the Nazis, that's just an NRA wankfest which has been debunked as far back as 2004, but you still keep repeating the same BS. Grow up, would you please.

You don't believe in the Holocaust? That they murdered 12 million innocent men, women and children?

The notion that had Jews been armed, they could have prevented the Holocaust, is a myth propagated by rabid NRA gun nuts. You only have to look at the destruction of the Warsaw ghetto, to see how any Jewish "uprising" would have turned out.

Similarly should your own so called, "militias" ever decide to "rise up agin a tyrannical govmint" my money would be on the Predator drones and Hellfire missiles, AH64s, etc of the US armed forces.

 

[Vagabond63]

It means that normal people owning and carrying guns does not increase the gun crime and gun murder rate...

"Normal" people can become "abnormal" at any time; domestic violence is committed by and happens to, "normal people"; "normal" people don't have the training or experience to deal with armed criminals intent on murder; "normal" people tend to freeze or panic; even veteran SEALs advise the first thing to do when "civillians" encounter someone with a gun, is to run away and/or hide.
Suicide is also made far easier if there's a firearm readilly available, "normal" people commit suicide from time to time.

Define therefore, who are "normal people".

 

[2aguy]

It means that normal people owning and carrying guns does not increase the gun crime and gun murder rate...

"Normal" people can become "abnormal" at any time; domestic violence is committed by and happens to, "normal people"; "normal" people don't have the training or experience to deal with armed criminals intent on murder; "normal" people tend to freeze or panic; even veteran SEALs advise the first thing to do when "civillians" encounter someone with a gun, is to run away and/or hide.
Suicide is also made far easier if there's a firearm readilly available, "normal" people commit suicide from time to time.

Define therefore, who are "normal people".

No, don't...

you don't know what you are talking about.....

The Criminology of Firearms


In 2004, the National Academy of Sciences reviewed 253 journal articles, 99 books, 43 government publications and some empirical research of its own about guns. The Academy could not identify any gun restriction that had reduced violent crime, suicide or gun accidents.

Why don't gun bans work? Because they rely on voluntary compliance by gun-using criminals. Prohibitionists never see this absurdity because they deceive themselves into thinking that, as Katherine Christoffel has said: "[M]ost shootings are not committed by felons or mentally ill people, but are acts of passion that are committed using a handgun that is owned for home protection."

Christoffel, et al., are utterly wrong. The whole corpus of criminological research dating back to the 1890'sshows murderers "almost uniformly have a long history of involvement in criminal behavior," and that "[v]irtually all" murderers and other gun criminals have prior felony records — generally long ones.

While only 15 percent of Americans have criminal records, roughly 90 percent of adult murderers have prior adult records — exclusive of their often extensive juvenile records — with crime careers of six or more adult years including four major felonies. Gerald D. Robin, writing for the Academy of Criminal Justice Sciences,notes that, unlike ordinary gun owners, "the average murderer turns out to be no less hardened a criminal than the average robber or burglar."

 

[2aguy]

It means that normal people owning and carrying guns does not increase the gun crime and gun murder rate...

"Normal" people can become "abnormal" at any time; domestic violence is committed by and happens to, "normal people"; "normal" people don't have the training or experience to deal with armed criminals intent on murder; "normal" people tend to freeze or panic; even veteran SEALs advise the first thing to do when "civillians" encounter someone with a gun, is to run away and/or hide.
Suicide is also made far easier if there's a firearm readilly available, "normal" people commit suicide from time to time.

Define therefore, who are "normal people".

Americans use their legal guns 1.2 million times a year to save lives....they are not Navy SEALs, and they do just fine...even that couple in St. Louis, they stopped a violent mob with their guns and never fired a shot....using a gun is not rocket science....and criminals, when faced with armed victims, run away......only 235 or so a year are stupid enough to press the attack against armed good guys, and they die because of that stupidity....

As to domestic violence....you again don't know what you are talking about....those homes are homes with alcoholics, drug addicts and others with histories of crime and violence as well as police contacts...they were never normal, and were never good people....they have long histories of mental issues, hence the drug, alcohol and crime problems...

Nothing you state is true or accurate..

 

[2aguy]

Yes.......you are a gun owner who supports guns being confiscated....goody for you.....so did the mass murderers in Germany...........who murdered 12 million unarmed men, women and children....

Who says I support guns being confiscated? I handed my guns and ammunition in and got paid their fair market value; I didn't lose out financially. Although dissappointed and upset at the time, I came to realise that a handgun free society was a much safer place than before. True I didn't have handguns, but then again neither did anyone else like Thomas Hamilton or Michael Ryan.

As for the Nazis, that's just an NRA wankfest which has been debunked as far back as 2004, but you still keep repeating the same BS. Grow up, would you please.

You don't believe in the Holocaust? That they murdered 12 million innocent men, women and children?

The notion that had Jews been armed, they could have prevented the Holocaust, is a myth propagated by rabid NRA gun nuts. You only have to look at the destruction of the Warsaw ghetto, to see how any Jewish "uprising" would have turned out.

Similarly should your own so called, "militias" ever decide to "rise up agin a tyrannical govmint" my money would be on the Predator drones and Hellfire missiles, AH64s, etc of the US armed forces.

The Warsaw Ghetto......you point to the Warsaw Ghetto where Polish Jews....without guns, were killed.....they had a few and stood against the Germans......

An essentially unarmed population......they had their guns confiscated......you don't know what you are talking about...

The Warsaw Ghetto uprising......had they actually been as well armed as the Swiss, had all the peoples in Europe been as well armed as the Swiss, the Germans could never have held the territory they captured......that is what armed citizens do...they discourage aggression...

There were 13,000 Jews killed in the uprising...unarmed......if those 13,000 had rifles, the outcome would have been a lot worse for the Germans.....and had that taken place in every country......World War 2 would have been very different...

A German force was tiny compared to 50,000 Jews.....and yet because they were unarmed...that tiny German force was able to destroy them...

By his own words, Stroop reported that after he took command on 19 April 1943 the forces at his disposal totaled 31 officers and 1,262 men:[51]

Warsaw Ghetto Uprising - Wikipedia


Marek Edelman, who was the only surviving uprising commander from the left-wing ŻOB, stated that the ŻOB had 220 fighters and each was armed with a handgun, grenades, and Molotov cocktails. His organization had three rifles in each area, as well as two land mines and one submachine gun.[20][21][22][23] Due to its socialist leanings, the Soviets promoted the actions of ŻOB as the dominant or only party in the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, a view often adopted by secondary sources in the West.[18]

----

Death toll[edit]

Stroop Report original caption: "Bandits jump to escape capture." A man leaps to his death from the top story window of an apartment block. Taken at 23 and 25 Niska Street[67]

Plaque commemorating Home Armysoldiers - Eugeniusz Morawski ps. "Młodek" and Józef Wilk ps. "Orlik" killed during the Ghetto Action on the wall Church of St. John of God at ul. Bonifraterska 12 in Warsaw.
13,000 Jews were killed in the ghetto during the uprising (some 6,000 among them were burnt alive or died from smoke inhalation). Of the remaining 50,000 residents, most were captured and shipped to concentration and extermination camps, in particular to Treblinka.

Jürgen Stroop's internal SS daily report for Friedrich Krüger, written on 16 May 1943, stated:

180 Jews, bandits and sub-humans, were destroyed. The former Jewish quarter of Warsaw is no longer in existence. The large-scale action was terminated at 20:15 hours by blowing up the Warsaw Synagogue. ... Total number of Jews dealt with 56,065, including both Jews caught and Jews whose extermination can be proved. ... Apart from 8 buildings (police barracks, hospital, and accommodations for housing working-parties) the former Ghetto is completely destroyed. Only the dividing walls are left standing where no explosions were carried out.[42]

According to the casualty lists in Stroop's report, German forces suffered a total of 110 casualties – 17 dead (of whom 16 were killed in action) and 93 injured – of whom 101 are listed by name, including over 60 members of the Waffen-SS. These figures did not include Jewish collaborators, but did include the "Trawniki men" and Polish police under his command. The real number of German losses, however, may be well higher (the Germans suffered about 300 casualties by Edelman's estimate). For propaganda purposes, the official announcement claimed the German casualties to be only a few wounded, while propaganda bulletins of the Polish Underground Stateannounced that hundreds of occupiers had been killed in the fighting.

 

[2aguy]

Yes.......you are a gun owner who supports guns being confiscated....goody for you.....so did the mass murderers in Germany...........who murdered 12 million unarmed men, women and children....

Who says I support guns being confiscated? I handed my guns and ammunition in and got paid their fair market value; I didn't lose out financially. Although dissappointed and upset at the time, I came to realise that a handgun free society was a much safer place than before. True I didn't have handguns, but then again neither did anyone else like Thomas Hamilton or Michael Ryan.

As for the Nazis, that's just an NRA wankfest which has been debunked as far back as 2004, but you still keep repeating the same BS. Grow up, would you please.

You don't believe in the Holocaust? That they murdered 12 million innocent men, women and children?

The notion that had Jews been armed, they could have prevented the Holocaust, is a myth propagated by rabid NRA gun nuts. You only have to look at the destruction of the Warsaw ghetto, to see how any Jewish "uprising" would have turned out.

Similarly should your own so called, "militias" ever decide to "rise up agin a tyrannical govmint" my money would be on the Predator drones and Hellfire missiles, AH64s, etc of the US armed forces.

You don't know what you are talking about....Europe essentially disarmed its civilians....allowing the Germans to occupy all of that territory without any resistance after they defeated the weak European nations.....and their philosophy of appeasement....

One Country was ready......and had 435,000 civilians armed with rifles to resist......

THE SWISS WERE PREPARED TO FIGHT FACISM TO THE BITTER END | FRONTLINE | PBS

Tom Bower's Nazi Gold requires a historical reality check ("What happened to all that money?"). The thesis of this tabloid-level book is that Switzerland was an ally of the Nazis when, in fact, this small neutral country was the only European country Hitler was afraid to invade.



Winston Churchill wrote in 1944: "Of all the neutrals Switzerland has the greatest right to distinction...She has been a democratic State, standing for freedom in self-defense among her mountains, and in thought, in spite of race, largely on our side."

That is why the Nazis despised Switzerland. Joseph Goebbels called Switzerland "this stinking little state" where "sentiment has turned very much against us." Adolf Hitler decided that "all the rubbish of small nations still existing in Europe must be liquidated," even if it meant he would later "be attacked as the 'Butcher of the Swiss.'"

The 1940 Nazi invasion plan, Operation Tannenbaum, was not executed, and SS Oberst Hermann Bohme's 1943 memorandum warned that an invasion of Switzerland would be too costly because every man was armed and trained to shoot. This did not stop the Gestapo from preparing lists of Swiss to be liquidated once the Nazis overran the country.

The other European nations were easily toppled and had little means to wage a partisan war against the occupation. Once their standing armies were defeated, the governments capitulated and the populaces were defenseless.

Only in Switzerland was the entire populace armed and prepared to wage a relentless guerrilla war against an invader.

When the war began in 1939, Switzerland mobilized 435,000 citizen soldiers out of a population of 4.2 million.

Production figures for Swiss service rifles, which had firepower equal to those of the Germans, demonstrate an ample supply of small arms.


Swiss militiamen were instructed to disregard any alleged "official" surrender as enemy propaganda and, if necessary, to fight individually. This meant that a nation of sharpshooters would be sniping at German soldiers at long ranges from every mountain.

While neutral, Switzerland was prepared to fight a Nazi invasion to the end. The celebrated Swiss Gen. Henri Guisan developed the strategy known as defense du reduit--an initial opposition followed by a retreat into the Alps, where a relentless war to the death would be waged. Most Swiss strongly opposed Nazism. Death sentences were issued for fifth-column activities, and proclamations against anti-Semitism were passed at various official levels. There was no Holocaust on Swiss soil, something that can not be said for France, the Netherlands, Poland or most of Europe.