Ship Collisions May be Due to Sleep Deprivation

[ABikerSailor]

first it was a few democrats texting while driving trains doing 65mph....then they crashed....please dont tell me that the captain/or driver of the ship this time around was texting.

You really are quite simple if you think that there was a possibility of them texting out in the middle of the ocean. Hate to tell you, but there are no cell phone towers out there.

And, there is more than just one person on the bridge when the ship is steaming across the water. There is the helm (the person steering the ship), the lee helm (the person controlling the speed), the Quartermaster (the person plotting the course the ship will take), the Officer of the Deck (person in charge of the bridge), the Assistant Officer of the Deck (secondary supervisor of the bridge), as well as the port and starboard bridge watches.

My opinion on what happened? Probably one of the ships changed course without telling anyone and the quartermasters probably made an error in their math. And yeah, that could happen if their stories about the 5 and 10 watches is true. During the time I was active duty Navy ('82 to '02), watches were in 4 hour increments. They were 00 to 04, 04 to 08, 08 to 12, 12 to 16, and 16 to 24 (watches are posted in military time). Granted, you had to do your watch in addition to your normal work duties, but you were given time off the next day for sleep if you had a 00 to 04 watch.

Guess that you forgot that I was in X division as a Personnelman, and well, choose your rate, choose your fate. If anyone in my division had a 00 to 04 watch, they were allowed to show up at work at 10. Sucks that your division didn't allow that.

 

[ABikerSailor]

Well if there is a warning system already in place then it isn't working very well. In both collisions, these were not quickly turning ships, they were huge tankers. Are you saying it can't be done? We can't implement an automated collision avoidance system that actually works on a Navy ship? It may not cover every scenario but we can certainly improve what we have and I think they will be.

Like I said, there is more to it than just radar, and it takes quite a distance for a ship to stop, even if it's emergency stop. You have to use the radar to find out what the other ship is doing and you have to calculate it to make sure there is no collision. If there is an error in the math, or if the other ship makes an unexpected move, there may not be enough time to recalculate a course that avoids a collision. You might think that civilian ships follow the same rules of the sea that the U.S. Navy does, but you would be sorely mistaken. I served in the Navy from '82 until '02, and have seen civilian ships, both cargo and tanker, as well as smaller fishing vessels get in the way of our course without even letting us know what they were doing.

I am not disagreeing you that it's very complicated and you clearly know way more about the specifics of the difficulties than I do. And I am not saying stop, I am saying keep going and turn like a mutherf*kr!

I am also not a sailor but I am a software engineer who worked on air data computers and other commercial airborne computer systems back in the 90s. I know that we can significantly improve what we have in terms of collision avoidance. I truly believe that is one of the things being looked at during the Navy stand down.

You know, I was on the USS GEORGE WASHINGTON when they did their shakedown sea trials. One of the tests was to see how quickly the carrier could turn at a high rate of speed. Thankfully we didn't have any aircraft onboard because the whole ship tilted about 15 to 20 deg. when we did a super tight turn. Know what kind of distance was covered during that turn to do a 180? A little over half a mile.

And yeah, those systems the aircraft use to keep from hitting each other are good, but they are also tied in nationwide. Won't work for a Naval vessel, because there are sometimes when the ship has to shut down all radio emissions.

Yes, during the stand down they are going to be looking at stuff like what you suggested, but that is just a small part of what they will examine.

If you were a sailor, you would know that a ship doesn't "tilt", a ship lists. The ship listed 15 to 20 degrees.

He was a titless WAVE, in other words his most strenuous daily task was avoiding paper cuts. The closest he probably got to the bridge was to get a signature on paperwork. He also doesn't realize that those aircraft are chained to the deck as soon as they stop moving.

To be more correct, the ship heeled when making a turn. A ship can list even sitting in port due to unequal weight distribution.

Actually, one of my collateral duties on my first ship was running flight quarters from the bridge during VERTREP. As far as knowing that the aircraft is chained to the deck, yeah, I do, what do you think the padeyes are for? However, a 15 to 20 degree tilt when the ship heels can strain the chains to the point of breaking. Didn't say it would, I said it could.

 

[Shrimpbox]

There is no way at least the first crash should have happened. I've worked in the Gulf of Mexico for 40 years in front of many ports around many ships. Tampa, Galveston, mobile, and more. Once a cargo vessel clears the channel and passes the sea buoy or any shoals they point themselves in one direction and never deviated from their course. Even radars that I can purchase show bearings, speed and course of any targets. My understanding is the first crash happened on the open sea. There was gross negligence at some level and the captains responsible. There is nothing more basic to any ship than collision avoidance. This collision was a tragedy and a humiliation. No other way to cut it.

I must edit this in one way. In places like the the gulf where there are a multitude of oil rigs shipping lanes are created where there are no obstructions to be concerned about. Ships will use these lanes until they clear the oil platforms or get into deep water. I don't think this was relevant to the first collision.

 

[Borillar]

first it was a few democrats texting while driving trains doing 65mph....then they crashed....please dont tell me that the captain/or driver of the ship this time around was texting.

You really are quite simple if you think that there was a possibility of them texting out in the middle of the ocean. Hate to tell you, but there are no cell phone towers out there.

And, there is more than just one person on the bridge when the ship is steaming across the water. There is the helm (the person steering the ship), the lee helm (the person controlling the speed), the Quartermaster (the person plotting the course the ship will take), the Officer of the Deck (person in charge of the bridge), the Assistant Officer of the Deck (secondary supervisor of the bridge), as well as the port and starboard bridge watches.

My opinion on what happened? Probably one of the ships changed course without telling anyone and the quartermasters probably made an error in their math. And yeah, that could happen if their stories about the 5 and 10 watches is true. During the time I was active duty Navy ('82 to '02), watches were in 4 hour increments. They were 00 to 04, 04 to 08, 08 to 12, 12 to 16, and 16 to 24 (watches are posted in military time). Granted, you had to do your watch in addition to your normal work duties, but you were given time off the next day for sleep if you had a 00 to 04 watch.

Guess that you forgot that I was in X division as a Personnelman, and well, choose your rate, choose your fate. If anyone in my division had a 00 to 04 watch, they were allowed to show up at work at 10. Sucks that your division didn't allow that.

They never cut me any slack either. If I stood watch, I was still expected to show up on time. I worked 12 hours on/off. Some of the flight deck crews worked 20 hours straight.

 

[rightwinger]

can you imagine the interrigation? asking the captian,,,,,how could you not see that 2000 foot long vessel?

I thought he saw me!

 

[rightwinger]

Why Are Our Ships Crashing? Competence, Overload, and Cyber Considerations | RealClearDefense

Great artice but none of the authors drove ships!

I also doubt that the steering systems on these ships are as computerized as they tend to make them out to be. Using a digital system instead of analog sychros makes no sense whatsoever.

How do you run into a freakn tanker?

 

[Markle]

How do you run into a freakn tanker?

The tanker "T" boned our ship. If you look at photos, you can see where the bow penetrated into our ship.

I'm still not ruling out a cyber solution which we will never learn.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

first it was a few democrats texting while driving trains doing 65mph....then they crashed....please dont tell me that the captain/or driver of the ship this time around was texting.

You really are quite simple if you think that there was a possibility of them texting out in the middle of the ocean. Hate to tell you, but there are no cell phone towers out there.

And, there is more than just one person on the bridge when the ship is steaming across the water. There is the helm (the person steering the ship), the lee helm (the person controlling the speed), the Quartermaster (the person plotting the course the ship will take), the Officer of the Deck (person in charge of the bridge), the Assistant Officer of the Deck (secondary supervisor of the bridge), as well as the port and starboard bridge watches.

My opinion on what happened? Probably one of the ships changed course without telling anyone and the quartermasters probably made an error in their math. And yeah, that could happen if their stories about the 5 and 10 watches is true. During the time I was active duty Navy ('82 to '02), watches were in 4 hour increments. They were 00 to 04, 04 to 08, 08 to 12, 12 to 16, and 16 to 24 (watches are posted in military time). Granted, you had to do your watch in addition to your normal work duties, but you were given time off the next day for sleep if you had a 00 to 04 watch.

Guess that you forgot that I was in X division as a Personnelman, and well, choose your rate, choose your fate. If anyone in my division had a 00 to 04 watch, they were allowed to show up at work at 10. Sucks that your division didn't allow that.

They never cut me any slack either. If I stood watch, I was still expected to show up on time. I worked 12 hours on/off. Some of the flight deck crews worked 20 hours straight.

So you never got extra rack time because you had the midwatch, did you?

 

[Rexx Taylor]

i wonder if either of the drivers were the infamous "Sol Rosenberg".

 

[Shrimpbox]

And let me give another perspective. These destroyers can probably hit 30 or 40 knots. I hint their true speeds are classified. The cargo ships have one speed. Now maybe you cant turn but you can sure give it the juice. So all the vessel would have to do is drop the throttle on the dash and make another 200 feet of clearance. There is no way this should have happened and I am not buying the too tired thing. All radars have a feature where you can set up a one mile or two mile radius where if anything comes inside that boundary an alarm goes off. Really for anyone who has been on the water this kind of collision is unimaginable.

 

[rightwinger]

How do you run into a freakn tanker?

The tanker "T" boned our ship. If you look at photos, you can see where the bow penetrated into our ship.

I'm still not ruling out a cyber solution which we will never learn.

The tanker is moving at 12-15 knots
The destroyer can do 30 knots

How does a destroyer allow itself to be T-boned?

 

[rightwinger]

And let me give another perspective. These destroyers can probably hit 30 or 40 knots. I hint their true speeds are classified. The cargo ships have one speed. Now maybe you cant turn but you can sure give it the juice. So all the vessel would have to do is drop the throttle on the dash and make another 200 feet of clearance. There is no way this should have happened and I am not buying the too tired thing. All radars have a feature where you can set up a one mile or two mile radius where if anything comes inside that boundary an alarm goes off. Really for anyone who has been on the water this kind of collision is unimaginable.

Exactly.....you have to clear 800 feet from a vessel moving at 15 knots
GPS, Radar, computers.......and you stil hit?

 

[Borillar]

first it was a few democrats texting while driving trains doing 65mph....then they crashed....please dont tell me that the captain/or driver of the ship this time around was texting.

You really are quite simple if you think that there was a possibility of them texting out in the middle of the ocean. Hate to tell you, but there are no cell phone towers out there.

And, there is more than just one person on the bridge when the ship is steaming across the water. There is the helm (the person steering the ship), the lee helm (the person controlling the speed), the Quartermaster (the person plotting the course the ship will take), the Officer of the Deck (person in charge of the bridge), the Assistant Officer of the Deck (secondary supervisor of the bridge), as well as the port and starboard bridge watches.

My opinion on what happened? Probably one of the ships changed course without telling anyone and the quartermasters probably made an error in their math. And yeah, that could happen if their stories about the 5 and 10 watches is true. During the time I was active duty Navy ('82 to '02), watches were in 4 hour increments. They were 00 to 04, 04 to 08, 08 to 12, 12 to 16, and 16 to 24 (watches are posted in military time). Granted, you had to do your watch in addition to your normal work duties, but you were given time off the next day for sleep if you had a 00 to 04 watch.

Guess that you forgot that I was in X division as a Personnelman, and well, choose your rate, choose your fate. If anyone in my division had a 00 to 04 watch, they were allowed to show up at work at 10. Sucks that your division didn't allow that.

They never cut me any slack either. If I stood watch, I was still expected to show up on time. I worked 12 hours on/off. Some of the flight deck crews worked 20 hours straight.

So you never got extra rack time because you had the midwatch, did you?

nope. Sure didn't.

 

[Markle]

How does a destroyer allow itself to be T-boned?

I have no clue. I've never driven either one. I still believe it has something to do with some sort of cyber attack. We destroyed hundreds of Iran's centrifuges with the Stuxnet virus.

 

[Markle]

Exactly.....you have to clear 800 feet from a vessel moving at 15 knots
GPS, Radar, computers.......and you still hit?

Here are a couple photos showing clearly that the destroyer was "T" boned. Other than cruise ships, I've never been working on a ship. Countless hours on power and sail boats. Hundreds of hours as a diver and dive master. Not one collision other than one when I was taking sailing lessons and, while we weren't supposed to race, it's hard not to when you have a class of college students, two to a boat, sailing a triangle course

 

[rightwinger]

Exactly.....you have to clear 800 feet from a vessel moving at 15 knots
GPS, Radar, computers.......and you still hit?

Here are a couple photos showing clearly that the destroyer was "T" boned. Other than cruise ships, I've never been working on a ship. Countless hours on power and sail boats. Hundreds of hours as a diver and dive master. Not one collision other than one when I was taking sailing lessons and, while we weren't supposed to race, it's hard not to when you have a class of college students, two to a boat, sailing a triangle course

To me it is like riding a bicycle in a parking lot and getting T-boned by an 85 year old man with a walker

 

[ABikerSailor]

Did you guys ever consider the possibility that the US ship was traveling on course and keeping a constant speed, while the cargo ship may have sped up or made a slight change in course that could have caused the collision?

I think waiting for the investigation would be the smart thing to do because there are way too many factors on both sides that could have contributed to the crash.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

They refer to “five and dime” watches, with five on and ten off, performing other duties during those ten hours.

“I averaged 3 hours of sleep a night” on a destroyer and cruiser, the sailor wrote:

I have personally gone without sleep for so long that I have seen and heard things that weren’t there. I’ve witnessed accidents that could have been avoided because the person was so tired they had no right to be operating heavy machinery, including an incident in which someone got descalped and someone else almost losing a finger.

The full stgory with lots of links and Tweets @ Amid 7th Fleet Turmoil, Sailors Flag A Silent Threat: Sleep Deprivation

I don't believe that for a second! That's absurd, is that the cover story they're running with? Oh, the poor CPU and GPS got so darn tired...absurd. Sleep deprivation....what a sad, sick disrespectful joke

 

[OldLady]

I get it that ships don't have brakes like cars, but then neither do jets. The point is to have your system sound a warning when a ship is closing in and make an evasive maneuver AWAY from the incoming ship. That way, instead of being T-boned by a million ton tanker maybe it turns into a glancing blow or we avoid them altogether.

Like I said.........you have to calculate relative bearing and speed, and compare that to what your ship is doing. Yes, there is a warning system already onboard, but like I said, if you have an error in your math, you will have an error in where your ship is or where it is going to be, and that is one of the main problems. And, like I said, if the other ship makes an unexpected maneuver and they don't tell you what they are doing, you won't know where they will be until you RECALCULATE their relative bearing and speed. If they are moving too fast in their closure rate, there may not be enough time for evasive maneuvers.

And yes, even jets have had mid air collisions. It's rare, but it has happened.

Same thing with other drivers that make moves that you don't expect. If that happens, you end up in a crash.

Well if there is a warning system already in place then it isn't working very well. In both collisions, these were not quickly turning ships, they were huge tankers. Are you saying it can't be done? We can't implement an automated collision avoidance system that actually works on a Navy ship? It may not cover every scenario but we can certainly improve what we have and I think they will be.

There are half the ships in service now that were when Reagan left office. Since 9/11 they are being expected to do far more around the world. The Navy is trying to keep up, but adequate time for training is suffering. So say the most informed folks I've heard discuss it. Because new sailors are arriving without proper training, they are getting "on the job" training on the watch, by other sailors who are pulling extra shifts to do it after a full day. So they're exhausted and the newbies aren't adequately trained. Sounds like an invitation to accidents to me.

 

[ABikerSailor]

They refer to “five and dime” watches, with five on and ten off, performing other duties during those ten hours.

“I averaged 3 hours of sleep a night” on a destroyer and cruiser, the sailor wrote:

I have personally gone without sleep for so long that I have seen and heard things that weren’t there. I’ve witnessed accidents that could have been avoided because the person was so tired they had no right to be operating heavy machinery, including an incident in which someone got descalped and someone else almost losing a finger.

The full stgory with lots of links and Tweets @ Amid 7th Fleet Turmoil, Sailors Flag A Silent Threat: Sleep Deprivation

I don't believe that for a second! That's absurd, is that the cover story they're running with? Oh, the poor CPU and GPS got so darn tired...absurd. Sleep deprivation....what a sad, sick disrespectful joke

Sleep deprivation does happen Frank. I've been through it a couple of times because the mission required it. When I was onboard an AFS (Combat Stores Ship), whenever we had a carrier hit (had to resupply a carrier at sea), we would work for 48 hours straight to get all the cargo pulled and ready for transfer. During that time, those of us working in the holds pulling cargo, would joke that we would need to take a picture of our rack (bunk bed) just to remember what it looked like. However.................after that, it was followed (mostly) by a day off where we had a steel beach picnic (hotdogs and hamburgers on the flight deck).

And.................during the good ol' days of Reagan and his wanting a 500 ship Navy, there were many instances of ships pulling out for deployment at only 85 percent manning, which resulted in many overtime hours due to watches.

The said they fixed it in the mid 90's with the "smart ship" concept, but if stuff like this is going on, apparently they haven't.