Ship Collisions May be Due to Sleep Deprivation

[rightwinger]

They refer to “five and dime” watches, with five on and ten off, performing other duties during those ten hours.

“I averaged 3 hours of sleep a night” on a destroyer and cruiser, the sailor wrote:

I have personally gone without sleep for so long that I have seen and heard things that weren’t there. I’ve witnessed accidents that could have been avoided because the person was so tired they had no right to be operating heavy machinery, including an incident in which someone got descalped and someone else almost losing a finger.

The full stgory with lots of links and Tweets @ Amid 7th Fleet Turmoil, Sailors Flag A Silent Threat: Sleep Deprivation

These ships are moving at six knots
There are multimillion dollar radar systems

No excuse

 

[ABikerSailor]

Why not Shoot big on board weapons to eliminate anything coming at you? Bet they all become more careful. First ship "hit" had muslims on it from Southern Philippines.......just pointing that out. Shoot them first.

You are welcome in advance. next problem please.

Because, if you shoot big onboard weapons to eliminate foreign ships in international waters, you are starting a war by firing at them.

And, there is no guarantee that the wreckage won't hit your ship.

 

[ABikerSailor]

They refer to “five and dime” watches, with five on and ten off, performing other duties during those ten hours.

“I averaged 3 hours of sleep a night” on a destroyer and cruiser, the sailor wrote:

I have personally gone without sleep for so long that I have seen and heard things that weren’t there. I’ve witnessed accidents that could have been avoided because the person was so tired they had no right to be operating heavy machinery, including an incident in which someone got descalped and someone else almost losing a finger.

The full stgory with lots of links and Tweets @ Amid 7th Fleet Turmoil, Sailors Flag A Silent Threat: Sleep Deprivation

These ships are moving at six knots
There are multimillion dollar radar systems

No excuse

Depends on where they were on the ocean when this happened. Standard cruising speed for the USS CONCORD in open water was about 15 to 20 knots. If you're on a carrier and they are launching planes, it's about 25 to 30 knots to get the wind speed over the deck. And, if you're on a cruiser, they average 20 to 25 knots.

 

[rightwinger]

They refer to “five and dime” watches, with five on and ten off, performing other duties during those ten hours.

“I averaged 3 hours of sleep a night” on a destroyer and cruiser, the sailor wrote:

I have personally gone without sleep for so long that I have seen and heard things that weren’t there. I’ve witnessed accidents that could have been avoided because the person was so tired they had no right to be operating heavy machinery, including an incident in which someone got descalped and someone else almost losing a finger.

The full stgory with lots of links and Tweets @ Amid 7th Fleet Turmoil, Sailors Flag A Silent Threat: Sleep Deprivation

These ships are moving at six knots
There are multimillion dollar radar systems

No excuse

Depends on where they were on the ocean when this happened. Standard cruising speed for the USS CONCORD in open water was about 15 to 20 knots. If you're on a carrier and they are launching planes, it's about 25 to 30 knots to get the wind speed over the deck. And, if you're on a cruiser, they average 20 to 25 knots.

How fast does a cargo ship or tanker move in a conjested shipping lane?

It's like running over an old lady with a walker in the supermarket parking lot and claiming it couldn't be avoided

 

[ABikerSailor]

They refer to “five and dime” watches, with five on and ten off, performing other duties during those ten hours.

“I averaged 3 hours of sleep a night” on a destroyer and cruiser, the sailor wrote:

I have personally gone without sleep for so long that I have seen and heard things that weren’t there. I’ve witnessed accidents that could have been avoided because the person was so tired they had no right to be operating heavy machinery, including an incident in which someone got descalped and someone else almost losing a finger.

The full stgory with lots of links and Tweets @ Amid 7th Fleet Turmoil, Sailors Flag A Silent Threat: Sleep Deprivation

These ships are moving at six knots
There are multimillion dollar radar systems

No excuse

Depends on where they were on the ocean when this happened. Standard cruising speed for the USS CONCORD in open water was about 15 to 20 knots. If you're on a carrier and they are launching planes, it's about 25 to 30 knots to get the wind speed over the deck. And, if you're on a cruiser, they average 20 to 25 knots.

How fast does a cargo ship or tanker move in a conjested shipping lane?

Most congested shipping lane I've ever been in was in the Red Sea where it met the Suez Canal. And, generally the speed was around 10 knots. If you are going into a port, the only ships that are capable of pulling in by themselves are certain kinds of cruisers with unique propulsion systems. The rest of the ships are pulled into port with tugs. During the 20 years I was in the Navy, a tugboat ALWAYS pulled us into the port and the pier.

Even the transit down the canal was at about 8 knots, and that was with the edges of the Suez only being about 50 to 100 ft away from the sides of the carrier.

 

[longknife]

This took place in the waters off Singapore, a very narrow channel with heavy traffic. I would think that given the location, the captain would've been at the helm with extra lookouts. There is absolutely no excuse for this.

 

[Muhammed]

Why not Shoot big on board weapons to eliminate anything coming at you? Bet they all become more careful. First ship "hit" had muslims on it from Southern Philippines.......just pointing that out. Shoot them first.

You are welcome in advance. next problem please.

Neither of the collisions had anything to do with the other ships not being careful. In both cases the US Navy ship was hit on the starboard side. That means it was the give way vessel.

When two power-driven vessels are in crossing situation on a collision course, give way to the vessel to starboard (right).The give way vessel must take early and obvious action to avoid a collision by either stopping or altering course to starboard.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

first it was a few democrats texting while driving trains doing 65mph....then they crashed....please dont tell me that the captain/or driver of the ship this time around was texting.

You really are quite simple if you think that there was a possibility of them texting out in the middle of the ocean. Hate to tell you, but there are no cell phone towers out there.

And, there is more than just one person on the bridge when the ship is steaming across the water. There is the helm (the person steering the ship), the lee helm (the person controlling the speed), the Quartermaster (the person plotting the course the ship will take), the Officer of the Deck (person in charge of the bridge), the Assistant Officer of the Deck (secondary supervisor of the bridge), as well as the port and starboard bridge watches.

My opinion on what happened? Probably one of the ships changed course without telling anyone and the quartermasters probably made an error in their math. And yeah, that could happen if their stories about the 5 and 10 watches is true. During the time I was active duty Navy ('82 to '02), watches were in 4 hour increments. They were 00 to 04, 04 to 08, 08 to 12, 12 to 16, and 16 to 24 (watches are posted in military time). Granted, you had to do your watch in addition to your normal work duties, but you were given time off the next day for sleep if you had a 00 to 04 watch.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

This took place in the waters off Singapore, a very narrow channel with heavy traffic. I would think that given the location, the captain would've been at the helm with extra lookouts. There is absolutely no excuse for this.

The captain is never "at the helm". He might be on the bridge, but a sailor mans the helm.

 

[Rexx Taylor]

can you imagine the interrigation? asking the captian,,,,,how could you not see that 2000 foot long vessel?

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

can you imagine the interrigation? asking the captian,,,,,how could you not see that 2000 foot long vessel?

Even our aircraft carriers are only about 1100 feet, and the USS Frank E. Evans could not see the Australian aircraft carrier Melbourne which was smaller than that at 702 feet. The USS Belknap was run over by the USS John F. Kennedy in 1975.

 

[Manonthestreet]

Why Are Our Ships Crashing? Competence, Overload, and Cyber Considerations | RealClearDefense

 

[Rexx Taylor]

can you imagine the interrigation? asking the captian,,,,,how could you not see that 2000 foot long vessel?

Even our aircraft carriers are only about 1100 feet, and the USS Frank E. Evans could not see the Australian aircraft carrier Melbourne which was smaller than that at 702 feet. The USS Belknap was run over by the USS John F. Kennedy in 1975.

can you imagine if Harry Reid was driving either ship?,,,god,,,its unthinkable !!!!

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Why Are Our Ships Crashing? Competence, Overload, and Cyber Considerations | RealClearDefense

Great artice but none of the authors drove ships!

I also doubt that the steering systems on these ships are as computerized as they tend to make them out to be. Using a digital system instead of analog sychros makes no sense whatsoever.

 

[Markle]

I get it that ships don't have brakes like cars, but then neither do jets. The point is to have your system sound a warning when a ship is closing in and make an evasive maneuver AWAY from the incoming ship. That way, instead of being T-boned by a million ton tanker maybe it turns into a glancing blow or we avoid them altogether.

Like I said.........you have to calculate relative bearing and speed, and compare that to what your ship is doing. Yes, there is a warning system already onboard, but like I said, if you have an error in your math, you will have an error in where your ship is or where it is going to be, and that is one of the main problems. And, like I said, if the other ship makes an unexpected maneuver and they don't tell you what they are doing, you won't know where they will be until you RECALCULATE their relative bearing and speed. If they are moving too fast in their closure rate, there may not be enough time for evasive maneuvers.

And yes, even jets have had mid air collisions. It's rare, but it has happened.

Same thing with other drivers that make moves that you don't expect. If that happens, you end up in a crash.

Well if there is a warning system already in place then it isn't working very well. In both collisions, these were not quickly turning ships, they were huge tankers. Are you saying it can't be done? We can't implement an automated collision avoidance system that actually works on a Navy ship? It may not cover every scenario but we can certainly improve what we have and I think they will be.

Like I said, there is more to it than just radar, and it takes quite a distance for a ship to stop, even if it's emergency stop. You have to use the radar to find out what the other ship is doing and you have to calculate it to make sure there is no collision. If there is an error in the math, or if the other ship makes an unexpected move, there may not be enough time to recalculate a course that avoids a collision. You might think that civilian ships follow the same rules of the sea that the U.S. Navy does, but you would be sorely mistaken. I served in the Navy from '82 until '02, and have seen civilian ships, both cargo and tanker, as well as smaller fishing vessels get in the way of our course without even letting us know what they were doing.

I am not disagreeing you that it's very complicated and you clearly know way more about the specifics of the difficulties than I do. And I am not saying stop, I am saying keep going and turn like a mutherf*kr!

I am also not a sailor but I am a software engineer who worked on air data computers and other commercial airborne computer systems back in the 90s. I know that we can significantly improve what we have in terms of collision avoidance. I truly believe that is one of the things being looked at during the Navy stand down.

You know, I was on the USS GEORGE WASHINGTON when they did their shakedown sea trials. One of the tests was to see how quickly the carrier could turn at a high rate of speed. Thankfully we didn't have any aircraft onboard because the whole ship tilted about 15 to 20 deg. when we did a super tight turn. Know what kind of distance was covered during that turn to do a 180? A little over half a mile.

And yeah, those systems the aircraft use to keep from hitting each other are good, but they are also tied in nationwide. Won't work for a Naval vessel, because there are sometimes when the ship has to shut down all radio emissions.

Yes, during the stand down they are going to be looking at stuff like what you suggested, but that is just a small part of what they will examine.

If you were a sailor, you would know that a ship doesn't "tilt", a ship lists. The ship listed 15 to 20 degrees.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Like I said.........you have to calculate relative bearing and speed, and compare that to what your ship is doing. Yes, there is a warning system already onboard, but like I said, if you have an error in your math, you will have an error in where your ship is or where it is going to be, and that is one of the main problems. And, like I said, if the other ship makes an unexpected maneuver and they don't tell you what they are doing, you won't know where they will be until you RECALCULATE their relative bearing and speed. If they are moving too fast in their closure rate, there may not be enough time for evasive maneuvers.

And yes, even jets have had mid air collisions. It's rare, but it has happened.

Same thing with other drivers that make moves that you don't expect. If that happens, you end up in a crash.

Well if there is a warning system already in place then it isn't working very well. In both collisions, these were not quickly turning ships, they were huge tankers. Are you saying it can't be done? We can't implement an automated collision avoidance system that actually works on a Navy ship? It may not cover every scenario but we can certainly improve what we have and I think they will be.

Like I said, there is more to it than just radar, and it takes quite a distance for a ship to stop, even if it's emergency stop. You have to use the radar to find out what the other ship is doing and you have to calculate it to make sure there is no collision. If there is an error in the math, or if the other ship makes an unexpected move, there may not be enough time to recalculate a course that avoids a collision. You might think that civilian ships follow the same rules of the sea that the U.S. Navy does, but you would be sorely mistaken. I served in the Navy from '82 until '02, and have seen civilian ships, both cargo and tanker, as well as smaller fishing vessels get in the way of our course without even letting us know what they were doing.

I am not disagreeing you that it's very complicated and you clearly know way more about the specifics of the difficulties than I do. And I am not saying stop, I am saying keep going and turn like a mutherf*kr!

I am also not a sailor but I am a software engineer who worked on air data computers and other commercial airborne computer systems back in the 90s. I know that we can significantly improve what we have in terms of collision avoidance. I truly believe that is one of the things being looked at during the Navy stand down.

You know, I was on the USS GEORGE WASHINGTON when they did their shakedown sea trials. One of the tests was to see how quickly the carrier could turn at a high rate of speed. Thankfully we didn't have any aircraft onboard because the whole ship tilted about 15 to 20 deg. when we did a super tight turn. Know what kind of distance was covered during that turn to do a 180? A little over half a mile.

And yeah, those systems the aircraft use to keep from hitting each other are good, but they are also tied in nationwide. Won't work for a Naval vessel, because there are sometimes when the ship has to shut down all radio emissions.

Yes, during the stand down they are going to be looking at stuff like what you suggested, but that is just a small part of what they will examine.

If you were a sailor, you would know that a ship doesn't "tilt", a ship lists. The ship listed 15 to 20 degrees.

He was a titless WAVE, in other words his most strenuous daily task was avoiding paper cuts. The closest he probably got to the bridge was to get a signature on paperwork. He also doesn't realize that those aircraft are chained to the deck as soon as they stop moving.

To be more correct, the ship heeled when making a turn. A ship can list even sitting in port due to unequal weight distribution.

 

[Markle]

Our ships today are totally computerized. They have to be since their course is now determined by GPS.

These ships are in a highly contested area of the world. China is building artificial islands and are pumping out submarines at an alarming pace. What better location to test our offensive/defensive cyber weapons which could confuse or override the guidance systems.

Computerization has also reduced the number of sailors on visual watch at any one time. Perhaps the answer is as simple as increasing the number of sailors watching the sea and not only computer screens.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Our ships today are totally computerized. They have to be since their course is now determined by GPS.

These ships are in a highly contested area of the world. China is building artificial islands and are pumping out submarines at an alarming pace. What better location to test our offensive/defensive cyber weapons which could confuse or override the guidance systems.

Computerization has also reduced the number of sailors on visual watch at any one time. Perhaps the answer is as simple as increasing the number of sailors watching the sea and not only computer screens.

We were using GPS in the early 90s on a ship built in the mid-60s with steam propulsion.

I also disagree that guidance systems can cause collisions. There are just far too many variables involved to be able to pull it off. .

 

[Manonthestreet]

Why Are Our Ships Crashing? Competence, Overload, and Cyber Considerations | RealClearDefense

Great artice but none of the authors drove ships!

I also doubt that the steering systems on these ships are as computerized as they tend to make them out to be. Using a digital system instead of analog sychros makes no sense whatsoever.

Which ships....the commercial ones or naval. Everything else is digitized except navigation? Don't buy it

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Why Are Our Ships Crashing? Competence, Overload, and Cyber Considerations | RealClearDefense

Great artice but none of the authors drove ships!

I also doubt that the steering systems on these ships are as computerized as they tend to make them out to be. Using a digital system instead of analog sychros makes no sense whatsoever.

Which ships....the commercial ones or naval. Everything else is digitized except navigation? Don't buy it

That is what the article claimed. I don't buy it either.