Ship Collisions May be Due to Sleep Deprivation

[ABikerSailor]

I get it that ships don't have brakes like cars, but then neither do jets. The point is to have your system sound a warning when a ship is closing in and make an evasive maneuver AWAY from the incoming ship. That way, instead of being T-boned by a million ton tanker maybe it turns into a glancing blow or we avoid them altogether.

Like I said.........you have to calculate relative bearing and speed, and compare that to what your ship is doing. Yes, there is a warning system already onboard, but like I said, if you have an error in your math, you will have an error in where your ship is or where it is going to be, and that is one of the main problems. And, like I said, if the other ship makes an unexpected maneuver and they don't tell you what they are doing, you won't know where they will be until you RECALCULATE their relative bearing and speed. If they are moving too fast in their closure rate, there may not be enough time for evasive maneuvers.

And yes, even jets have had mid air collisions. It's rare, but it has happened.

Same thing with other drivers that make moves that you don't expect. If that happens, you end up in a crash.

Well if there is a warning system already in place then it isn't working very well. In both collisions, these were not quickly turning ships, they were huge tankers. Are you saying it can't be done? We can't implement an automated collision avoidance system that actually works on a Navy ship? It may not cover every scenario but we can certainly improve what we have and I think they will be.

There are half the ships in service now that were when Reagan left office. Since 9/11 they are being expected to do far more around the world. The Navy is trying to keep up, but adequate time for training is suffering. So say the most informed folks I've heard discuss it. Because new sailors are arriving without proper training, they are getting "on the job" training on the watch, by other sailors who are pulling extra shifts to do it after a full day. So they're exhausted and the newbies aren't adequately trained. Sounds like an invitation to accidents to me.

Unless they have radically changed things since I was in, OJT was the primary source of training. Yes, I went to "A" school for PN, but they only taught me the basics, and told me that the rest of what I had to know I would learn in the fleet. There was also a quote, "there's the right way, the wrong way, and the Navy way" meaning that you could follow the exact letter of the law, and get stuff done really slow, take shortcuts and possibly end up with the wrong result, or you could take shortcuts that had been tried and tested over the years, that resulted in a proper outcome. That was the Navy way.

As far as learning your watches? Ship types vary, and so do the watches that each one requires, so OJT (on the job training) is the preferred method to do so. And, you aren't put on a watch by yourself, you are put on one with an older, experienced person who trains you in standing the watch as you do it.

No, the older sailors training the newer sailors don't stand extra watches to do so, they train them as they stand watch with them as supervisor, or they train them in their workspace during normal working hours. Military stuff doesn't work like civilian stuff does.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

They refer to “five and dime” watches, with five on and ten off, performing other duties during those ten hours.

“I averaged 3 hours of sleep a night” on a destroyer and cruiser, the sailor wrote:

I have personally gone without sleep for so long that I have seen and heard things that weren’t there. I’ve witnessed accidents that could have been avoided because the person was so tired they had no right to be operating heavy machinery, including an incident in which someone got descalped and someone else almost losing a finger.

The full stgory with lots of links and Tweets @ Amid 7th Fleet Turmoil, Sailors Flag A Silent Threat: Sleep Deprivation

I don't believe that for a second! That's absurd, is that the cover story they're running with? Oh, the poor CPU and GPS got so darn tired...absurd. Sleep deprivation....what a sad, sick disrespectful joke

Sleep deprivation does happen Frank. I've been through it a couple of times because the mission required it. When I was onboard an AFS (Combat Stores Ship), whenever we had a carrier hit (had to resupply a carrier at sea), we would work for 48 hours straight to get all the cargo pulled and ready for transfer. During that time, those of us working in the holds pulling cargo, would joke that we would need to take a picture of our rack (bunk bed) just to remember what it looked like. However.................after that, it was followed (mostly) by a day off where we had a steel beach picnic (hotdogs and hamburgers on the flight deck).

And.................during the good ol' days of Reagan and his wanting a 500 ship Navy, there were many instances of ships pulling out for deployment at only 85 percent manning, which resulted in many overtime hours due to watches.

The said they fixed it in the mid 90's with the "smart ship" concept, but if stuff like this is going on, apparently they haven't.

I'm sure that sleep deprivation is real, I'm also sure that in the GPS world there's no chance at all of a US Navy shipped being rammed by a cargo ship because someone fell asleep.

 

[ABikerSailor]

They refer to “five and dime” watches, with five on and ten off, performing other duties during those ten hours.

“I averaged 3 hours of sleep a night” on a destroyer and cruiser, the sailor wrote:

I have personally gone without sleep for so long that I have seen and heard things that weren’t there. I’ve witnessed accidents that could have been avoided because the person was so tired they had no right to be operating heavy machinery, including an incident in which someone got descalped and someone else almost losing a finger.

The full stgory with lots of links and Tweets @ Amid 7th Fleet Turmoil, Sailors Flag A Silent Threat: Sleep Deprivation

I don't believe that for a second! That's absurd, is that the cover story they're running with? Oh, the poor CPU and GPS got so darn tired...absurd. Sleep deprivation....what a sad, sick disrespectful joke

Sleep deprivation does happen Frank. I've been through it a couple of times because the mission required it. When I was onboard an AFS (Combat Stores Ship), whenever we had a carrier hit (had to resupply a carrier at sea), we would work for 48 hours straight to get all the cargo pulled and ready for transfer. During that time, those of us working in the holds pulling cargo, would joke that we would need to take a picture of our rack (bunk bed) just to remember what it looked like. However.................after that, it was followed (mostly) by a day off where we had a steel beach picnic (hotdogs and hamburgers on the flight deck).

And.................during the good ol' days of Reagan and his wanting a 500 ship Navy, there were many instances of ships pulling out for deployment at only 85 percent manning, which resulted in many overtime hours due to watches.

The said they fixed it in the mid 90's with the "smart ship" concept, but if stuff like this is going on, apparently they haven't.

I'm sure that sleep deprivation is real, I'm also sure that in the GPS world there's no chance at all of a US Navy shipped being rammed by a cargo ship because someone fell asleep.

Actually, Frank, GPS is one of the tools that the Quartermasters use to calculate their position. They also have a depth finder, as well as their sextants and charts to go along with their calculations. Like I said, there are TWO people involved in this accident, and if one of them is deficient in their calculations or telling the other ship what they are doing, they can end up with a collision.

Yes, sleep deprivation is real, but GPS alone won't solve the problem. Like I have said many times before, there are things that work in the civilian world that won't work in the military, and things that they do in the military that won't work in the civilian world.

Yeah, GPS works great for cars, but you also have quite a bit more control over how a car acts on the road than you do over how a ship acts on the water.

 

[Markle]

There are half the ships in service now that were when Reagan left office. Since 9/11 they are being expected to do far more around the world. The Navy is trying to keep up, but adequate time for training is suffering. So say the most informed folks I've heard discuss it. Because new sailors are arriving without proper training, they are getting "on the job" training on the watch, by other sailors who are pulling extra shifts to do it after a full day. So they're exhausted and the newbies aren't adequately trained. Sounds like an invitation to accidents to me.

Curious how that works. Yes, the Navy is stretched thin thanks in large part because of the Sequestration proposed by petulant former President Barack Hussein Obama. Meaning many Sailors have been discharged who are probably in the reserves today.

$585 Billion Defense Budget Assures Fight Over Spending Caps


By Elliot Jager | Tuesday, 03 Feb 2015 07:57 AM

• Congress had capped military spending at $499 billion under sequestration.

The Pentagon has proposed a $585.3 billion defense budget for fiscal year 2016, which begins Oct. 1, but Congress had capped military spending at $499 billion under sequestration.

The budget reflects the defense establishment's priorities, calling for more spending in areas such as drones, planes, and missiles, while mostly holding the line on the Army and personnel costs overall, The Wall Street Journal reported.

Base funding for the military would be $534.3 billion, with $50.9 billion more to fund counterterrorism and conflicts in Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria, according to Stars and Stripes.

[...]

Ignoring caps, Obama proposes big boost in defense spending

 

[Markle]

Yeah, GPS works great for cars, but you also have quite a bit more control over how a car acts on the road than you do over how a ship acts on the water.

I wouldn't be surprised if there even was a chart on a modern Navy ship.

The pilot for a jumbo jet takes off, watches the instruments or sleep, and later lands the beast. They have prototypes of airliners which can take off and land without anyone in the cockpit. One major question is how a pilotless airline will be accepted by the public.

 

[ABikerSailor]

Yeah, GPS works great for cars, but you also have quite a bit more control over how a car acts on the road than you do over how a ship acts on the water.

I wouldn't be surprised if there even was a chart on a modern Navy ship.

The pilot for a jumbo jet takes off, watches the instruments or sleep, and later lands the beast. They have prototypes of airliners which can take off and land without anyone in the cockpit. One major question is how a pilotless airline will be accepted by the public.

Can't speak for right now, but I do know that charts were still being used as late as 1999.

As far as your prototypes of airliners that can take off and land without pilots? Yeah, they CAN do that, but they are also in constant contact with stations on the ground. Navy ships can't do that because there are times they have to shut down all radio emissions.

 

[rightwinger]

They refer to “five and dime” watches, with five on and ten off, performing other duties during those ten hours.

“I averaged 3 hours of sleep a night” on a destroyer and cruiser, the sailor wrote:

I have personally gone without sleep for so long that I have seen and heard things that weren’t there. I’ve witnessed accidents that could have been avoided because the person was so tired they had no right to be operating heavy machinery, including an incident in which someone got descalped and someone else almost losing a finger.

The full stgory with lots of links and Tweets @ Amid 7th Fleet Turmoil, Sailors Flag A Silent Threat: Sleep Deprivation

I don't believe that for a second! That's absurd, is that the cover story they're running with? Oh, the poor CPU and GPS got so darn tired...absurd. Sleep deprivation....what a sad, sick disrespectful joke

Sleep deprivation does happen Frank. I've been through it a couple of times because the mission required it. When I was onboard an AFS (Combat Stores Ship), whenever we had a carrier hit (had to resupply a carrier at sea), we would work for 48 hours straight to get all the cargo pulled and ready for transfer. During that time, those of us working in the holds pulling cargo, would joke that we would need to take a picture of our rack (bunk bed) just to remember what it looked like. However.................after that, it was followed (mostly) by a day off where we had a steel beach picnic (hotdogs and hamburgers on the flight deck).

And.................during the good ol' days of Reagan and his wanting a 500 ship Navy, there were many instances of ships pulling out for deployment at only 85 percent manning, which resulted in many overtime hours due to watches.

The said they fixed it in the mid 90's with the "smart ship" concept, but if stuff like this is going on, apparently they haven't.

I'm sure that sleep deprivation is real, I'm also sure that in the GPS world there's no chance at all of a US Navy shipped being rammed by a cargo ship because someone fell asleep.

Actually, Frank, GPS is one of the tools that the Quartermasters use to calculate their position. They also have a depth finder, as well as their sextants and charts to go along with their calculations. Like I said, there are TWO people involved in this accident, and if one of them is deficient in their calculations or telling the other ship what they are doing, they can end up with a collision.

Yes, sleep deprivation is real, but GPS alone won't solve the problem. Like I have said many times before, there are things that work in the civilian world that won't work in the military, and things that they do in the military that won't work in the civilian world.

Yeah, GPS works great for cars, but you also have quite a bit more control over how a car acts on the road than you do over how a ship acts on the water.

During your time in the Navy, did you ever hit another ship? Ever have a near miss?

 

[ABikerSailor]

They refer to “five and dime” watches, with five on and ten off, performing other duties during those ten hours.

“I averaged 3 hours of sleep a night” on a destroyer and cruiser, the sailor wrote:

I have personally gone without sleep for so long that I have seen and heard things that weren’t there. I’ve witnessed accidents that could have been avoided because the person was so tired they had no right to be operating heavy machinery, including an incident in which someone got descalped and someone else almost losing a finger.

The full stgory with lots of links and Tweets @ Amid 7th Fleet Turmoil, Sailors Flag A Silent Threat: Sleep Deprivation

I don't believe that for a second! That's absurd, is that the cover story they're running with? Oh, the poor CPU and GPS got so darn tired...absurd. Sleep deprivation....what a sad, sick disrespectful joke

Sleep deprivation does happen Frank. I've been through it a couple of times because the mission required it. When I was onboard an AFS (Combat Stores Ship), whenever we had a carrier hit (had to resupply a carrier at sea), we would work for 48 hours straight to get all the cargo pulled and ready for transfer. During that time, those of us working in the holds pulling cargo, would joke that we would need to take a picture of our rack (bunk bed) just to remember what it looked like. However.................after that, it was followed (mostly) by a day off where we had a steel beach picnic (hotdogs and hamburgers on the flight deck).

And.................during the good ol' days of Reagan and his wanting a 500 ship Navy, there were many instances of ships pulling out for deployment at only 85 percent manning, which resulted in many overtime hours due to watches.

The said they fixed it in the mid 90's with the "smart ship" concept, but if stuff like this is going on, apparently they haven't.

I'm sure that sleep deprivation is real, I'm also sure that in the GPS world there's no chance at all of a US Navy shipped being rammed by a cargo ship because someone fell asleep.

Actually, Frank, GPS is one of the tools that the Quartermasters use to calculate their position. They also have a depth finder, as well as their sextants and charts to go along with their calculations. Like I said, there are TWO people involved in this accident, and if one of them is deficient in their calculations or telling the other ship what they are doing, they can end up with a collision.

Yes, sleep deprivation is real, but GPS alone won't solve the problem. Like I have said many times before, there are things that work in the civilian world that won't work in the military, and things that they do in the military that won't work in the civilian world.

Yeah, GPS works great for cars, but you also have quite a bit more control over how a car acts on the road than you do over how a ship acts on the water.

During your time in the Navy, did you ever hit another ship? Ever have a near miss?

Actually, there were a couple of times that we had a near miss, and all of them were because the civilian ship didn't follow the rules of the road like they were supposed to and we came within 50 yards of them when we shouldn't have.

As far as have I ever been on a ship that collided with another one? Nope, never collided with another ship.

However................................

There was one time when I was stationed with the USS CONCORD (AFS-5) back in the mid 80's, and we were steaming into port in heavy fog. Well, the skipper was up there watching over what was going on, but at one point he thought we were too close to another ship, and he didn't bother to check the chart, or the quartermaster, but rather decided to kick the helmsman off of the wheel and take it for himself.

Well......................he wasn't paying attention to what he was doing, made a course correction to the starboard, saw he was going to run over a sea buoy, tried to miss it, but ended up running it over anyway. We had to go to the shipyards and get a new propeller because one of the blades was halfway gone, and the other two had big chunks taken out of them when we ran over the buoy.

Tell ya what......................when a ship runs over a sea buoy, it makes one hell of a racket!