Zone1 Separation of Church and State?

[whutTHEYsay]

Do you know the difference between a militant atheist and a Christian who is registered to vote as a Democrat?

Do you think all the participants in your Kingdom of God are exactly the same as you?

 

[whutTHEYsay]

I'm saying the founders intended for the bill of rights to apply only to the federal governmen

Another milktoast, meaningless phrase because you’re stuck.

 

[Foxfyre]

No, it isn't but you're determined to keep saying it, so go ahead.

The Church did not rule over England, the Royal Family and then Parliament did.

No, it isn't but you're determined to keep saying it, so go ahead.

The Church did not rule over England, the Royal Family and then Parliament did.

The monarch of the Church of England in the 18th Century was the 'defender of the faith' meaning head of the Church of England. The leader of the Church was the Archbishop of Canturbury with almost unlimited power and answerable only to the Monarch. The Church of England was the only authorized church and those who became the Pilgrims were not allowed to have their own churches separate from the Church of England.

It was a theocracy.

 

[Meriweather]

Although this is "The Kingdom of God" for some - it maybe not be the "Kingdom of God" for others. Forcing any religion on others and telling them it's because "This is the Kingdom of God" is the complete opposite of what it means to live in the Kingdom of God. All it does is create further discord and will only weaken the nation by dividing it (Why would you want to weaken and divide what you believe to be "The Kingdom of God"?)

The United States is a worldly nation. It is not the Kingdom of God. While anyone may enter the Kingdom of God, not all choose to do so. Wasn't it the children's program The Electric Company that taught/sang something like, "The most important is you." Anyone who thinks s/he is the most important will be unable to enter through the narrow gate of the Kingdom of God.

It's pretty much the same way with barging into the halls of government where the rich and powerful reign. My point is that as Christian citizens, we still have a duty to see to it God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven. I've been doing a lot of smiling and shaking my head at some of the reactions in this thread. First, some immediately jumped to the conclusion that I wanted a religion in government. Our Constitution is secular. Anyone upholding our government is not going to wedge a religion into it.

Wasn't it John Adams who said our government is only fit for a moral and religious people? Note, he did not say the government had to be moral and religious--he said the citizens needed to be moral and religious. I also love the more cynical quote, "Democracy is the recurrent suspicion that more than half of the people are right more than half the time."

But back to God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven. It seems many jump to the conclusion that this limits our freedom, whereas God is free and he created us in his image to be free. Saddling ourselves with a government is hardly a freeing experience, especially if we are of the mind and are teaching our children that I am the most important person. That's how we get males barging into female sports, teachers barging into the student transgender territory that rightfully belongs to parents and family. I am more important than my sister citizens; I am more important than a parent/family; I am more important than anyone in another political party...etc.

How do we free ourselves from government overreach so that we are truly the free people God made us to be? Overthrow the government? Hardly. We live our lives freely, we speak freely (but with goodness and love), and we live, not as though the I is the most important being, but that God is. In one of Jesus shortest parables he explained how this is done. We bring this yeast into our own life, and over time this yeast will spread, to less dependence on the government while taking on more responsibility for our freedom/independence.

 

[whutTHEYsay]

Foxfyre

My point is that as Christian citizens, we still have a duty to see to it God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

You do not get to decide on a particular God’s will is to be done on earth using the coercion of the government.

You just don’t. Get it out of your head.

 

[Foxfyre]

The United States is a worldly nation. It is not the Kingdom of God. While anyone may enter the Kingdom of God, not all choose to do so. Wasn't it the children's program The Electric Company that taught/sang something like, "The most important is you." Anyone who thinks s/he is the most important will be unable to enter through the narrow gate of the Kingdom of God.

It's pretty much the same way with barging into the halls of government where the rich and powerful reign. My point is that as Christian citizens, we still have a duty to see to it God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven. I've been doing a lot of smiling and shaking my head at some of the reactions in this thread. First, some immediately jumped to the conclusion that I wanted a religion in government. Our Constitution is secular. Anyone upholding our government is not going to wedge a religion into it.

Wasn't it John Adams who said our government is only fit for a moral and religious people? Note, he did not say the government had to be moral and religious--he said the citizens needed to be moral and religious. I also love the more cynical quote, "Democracy is the recurrent suspicion that more than half of the people are right more than half the time."

But back to God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven. It seems many jump to the conclusion that this limits our freedom, whereas God is free and he created us in his image to be free. Saddling ourselves with a government is hardly a freeing experience, especially if we are of the mind and are teaching our children that I am the most important person. That's how we get males barging into female sports, teachers barging into the student transgender territory that rightfully belongs to parents and family. I am more important than my sister citizens; I am more important than a parent/family; I am more important than anyone in another political party...etc.

How do we free ourselves from government overreach so that we are truly the free people God made us to be? Overthrow the government? Hardly. We live our lives freely, we speak freely (but with goodness and love), and we live, not as though the I is the most important being, but that God is. In one of Jesus shortest parables he explained how this is done. We bring this yeast into our own life, and over time this yeast will spread, to less dependence on the government while taking on more responsibility for our freedom/independence.

I gently disagree that it is our Christian duty to see to it that God's will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven. That kind of thinking led to the bloody Crusades, the Inquisition, the oppression and punishment of all who defied whatever the legal Church was in any given place or time, even justification of slavery and Jim Crow laws in the New World.

It is our Christian duty to, as much as we are able, know and do God's will by our own free will and understanding.

 

[Meriweather]

I gently disagree that it is our Christian duty to see to it that God's will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven.

Then as a Christian, don't do God's will.

I am not clear why you disagree that doing God's will in one's own life, including one's personal civic duty such as voting is the stance you choose. I don't know why you are taking the stance that all people of faith should not to do the will of God in their own lives, including in any civic responsibilities such as voting or attending Town Hall Meetings to learn the position of candidates and/or to voice opinions on current issues.

 

[Ace Nova]

The United States is a worldly nation. It is not the Kingdom of God. While anyone may enter the Kingdom of God, not all choose to do so. Wasn't it the children's program The Electric Company that taught/sang something like, "The most important is you." Anyone who thinks s/he is the most important will be unable to enter through the narrow gate of the Kingdom of God.

It's pretty much the same way with barging into the halls of government where the rich and powerful reign. My point is that as Christian citizens, we still have a duty to see to it God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven. I've been doing a lot of smiling and shaking my head at some of the reactions in this thread. First, some immediately jumped to the conclusion that I wanted a religion in government. Our Constitution is secular. Anyone upholding our government is not going to wedge a religion into it.

Wasn't it John Adams who said our government is only fit for a moral and religious people? Note, he did not say the government had to be moral and religious--he said the citizens needed to be moral and religious. I also love the more cynical quote, "Democracy is the recurrent suspicion that more than half of the people are right more than half the time."

But back to God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven. It seems many jump to the conclusion that this limits our freedom, whereas God is free and he created us in his image to be free. Saddling ourselves with a government is hardly a freeing experience, especially if we are of the mind and are teaching our children that I am the most important person. That's how we get males barging into female sports, teachers barging into the student transgender territory that rightfully belongs to parents and family. I am more important than my sister citizens; I am more important than a parent/family; I am more important than anyone in another political party...etc.

How do we free ourselves from government overreach so that we are truly the free people God made us to be? Overthrow the government? Hardly. We live our lives freely, we speak freely (but with goodness and love), and we live, not as though the I is the most important being, but that God is. In one of Jesus shortest parables he explained how this is done. We bring this yeast into our own life, and over time this yeast will spread, to less dependence on the government while taking on more responsibility for our freedom/independence.

From what you just posted - your question is not about the separation of church & state. This country was established so that everyone can have a voice - it's far from perfect but when compared to the world as a whole - this country has done more for the advancement of civilization (since its inception) than any other country on Earth - bar none. The beauty of America is that people from every race, color, Creed, religion, culture and so forth built this country and made it what it is today.

The road that led us here was difficult and very dark at times but thanks to the Founding Fathers, their patriots - the Revolutionary War was won, granting us Independence from the Monarchy. The slave trade is the darkest time in this country's history - the forced sacrifice of hard labor, with no reward, that African Americans had to endure during that time period helped establish this country's first economy - without them and what they did for this early nation, this country would be vastly different - if even a country at all.

The Civil War was the bloodiest war in this country's history - over 1 million combined casualties and over 620,000 deaths - roughly 2% of the population was lost. That would be the equivalent of losing almost 7 million people by today's standards. We go on to engage in WWI and WWII - European Wars that became our war when our Allies needed help. Women's rights were established followed by the Civil Rights movement a few decades later.

Thanks to vast amounts of immigration, especially during the turn of the century - the industrial revolution was established and helped propel the United Stated into become the strongest economy in the world. Irish, Italian, Chinese, African, Eastern European, Middle Eastern/Asian among other immigrants, all played a huge role in laying the economic foundations of this country. Those immigrants worked tough, dangerous and dirty jobs - with working conditions that would be considered criminal nowadays - for wages that could barely feed their families.

The technological boom - computers, the internet, smart phones, etc etc etc all started here - and took us all the way to where we are now - the leading Super Power of the World where even the poorest people in this country are better off than most working class people in other countries.

This was all made possible because of the government that was established over 200 years ago and still remains strong today. The idea is that "everyone has a voice" - including faith and religion based values.

And most of what you listed had little to do with "religion vs state" and much more to do with conservative leaning values. You don't need religion to justify your stance on Abortion - you can be perfectly fine by saying you believe it's wrong - for a myriad of reasons. You don't need religion to be against children having sex changes before the age of 18. There is plenty of medical/psychological sources that would agree with that stance - and so forth.

 

[Foxfyre]

Then as a Christian, don't do God's will.

I am not clear why you disagree that doing God's will in one's own life, including one's personal civic duty such as voting is the stance you choose. I don't know why you are taking the stance that all people of faith should not to do the will of God in their own lives, including in any civic responsibilities such as voting or attending Town Hall Meetings to learn the position of candidates and/or to voice opinions on current issues.

You didn't say in your own life. You said it was a Christian's duty to see to it that God's will be done. Which implies by everybody not just yourself. You may not have intended it that way, but that has been used as the excuse for the worst sins committed in the name of Christianity.

 

[Meriweather]

your question is not about the separation of church & state.

My question addresses the fact that citizens of faith (all faiths) may participate in civic issues and should not be intimidated by those snapping, "Separation of Church and State" at them. The primary example of this could be abortion, but it also extends into school choice. People are free to practice their faith. Offering the choice of a Christian, Jewish, Muslim school, etc., is not the Feds pushing a religion, but offering the choices the Constitution guarantees. Because some religions are against abortion, it does not make abortion a religious issue and therefore is not an example for separation of church and state. As mentioned previously, some atheists are also against abortion.

People of faith should be able to voice their opinions on these issues without those on the opposing side of the issue running up the flag of separation of church and state.

 

[ding]

Do you think all the participants in your Kingdom of God are exactly the same as you?

I have no idea what you think my kingdom of God is so I couldn't say one way or another.

 

[Meriweather]

You didn't say in your own life. You said it was a Christian's duty to see to it that God's will be done. Which implies by everybody not just yourself. You may not have intended it that way, but that has been used as the excuse for the worst sins committed in the name of Christianity.

I did not imply this, and throughout the thread I have state this. Yet people keep inferring that is what I must mean. What bothers me when Christians bring this up is that I don't know about everyone else, but it was drummed into me everyone has free will. Just as people of faith cannot force anyone to vote a certain way, people of no faith cannot force people of faith to vote a certain way. Nothing can be more obvious. At least that's what I thought.

 

[ding]

Another milktoast, meaningless phrase because you’re stuck.

How can I be stuck? It's recorded history. Maybe look it up for yourself.

 

[ding]

You didn't say in your own life. You said it was a Christian's duty to see to it that God's will be done. Which implies by everybody not just yourself. You may not have intended it that way, but that has been used as the excuse for the worst sins committed in the name of Christianity.

The founding fathers - to a man - believed that rights are granted because we have a duty to God; an obligation.

Do you agree with that?

 

[whutTHEYsay]

f

Then as a Christian, don't do God's will.

I don't know why you are taking the stance that all people of faith should not to do the will of God in their own lives, including in any civic responsibilities such as voting or attending Town Hall Meetings to learn the position of candidates and/or to voice opinions on current issues.

Because some religions are against abortion, it does not make abortion a religious issue and therefore is not an example for separation of church and state.

People of faith should do the will of God in their own lives.

Keyword is “own”” .

I repeat; People of faith should do the will of God in their own lives.

Abortion is the issue that you should live what you say. People who get an abortion are not part of your “own” life..

Abortion is a religious issue because it’s the catholic Church primarily that insist that the sanctity of life begins at conception.

Every person on the planet does not have to believe that sanctity of life begins at conception,

We had thousands of years of civilization such as within the Jewish community, where the sanctity of life begins at first breath.

Every feet is can die on its own through about 20 weeks after conception.

No one has to believe that a miscarried fetus has sanctity of life from your Catholic God.


So when you believe that the sanctity of life begins at conception in your “own” life? And then mind your own business and when you vote, don’t vote for politicians who promise that they’re gonna enforce the Catholic religion on everybody.

 

[whutTHEYsay]

How can I be stuck? It's recorded history.

You cannot be trusted or believed, because your interpretation of recorded history very often fails to use reason and practical sense.

We don’t need a historian with an agenda to interpret simple words like the phrase “or the people“.

 

[BreezeWood]

That's how we get males barging into female sports, teachers barging into the student transgender territory that rightfully belongs to parents and family.

- paterfamilias has always been a curse for those that alienate others for their own self interest.

 

[Foxfyre]

I did not imply this, and throughout the thread I have state this. Yet people keep inferring that is what I must mean. What bothers me when Christians bring this up is that I don't know about everyone else, but it was drummed into me everyone has free will. Just as people of faith cannot force anyone to vote a certain way, people of no faith cannot force people of faith to vote a certain way. Nothing can be more obvious. At least that's what I thought.

I believe you did not intend to imply that but the casual reader reading it the way you stated it, it was implied. No harm no foul. I just didn't want it left to the anti religious group to use it as evidence that we evil Christians want a theocracy.

 

[whutTHEYsay]

The founding fathers - to a man - believed that rights are granted because we have a duty to God; an obligation.

Jefferson believed that rights are granted, even if you believe there is no God. He said that.

Washington was a Freemason he believed that duty of which you speak can be applied to any God.

John Adams was a Unitarian. He didn’t believe in original sin or that Jesus Christ died on the cross and rose from the dead. The duty to God was just to be a good Civic person. That is not Christianity as mankind has experienced the gospel of Jesus Christ throughout the ages.

 

[ding]

You cannot be trusted or believed, because your interpretation of recorded history very often fails to use reason and practical sense.

We don’t need a historian with an agenda to interpret simple words like the phrase “or the people“.

So research it yourself, dummy. I never asked you to take my word on it.

Because until you do, I'll keep beating you over the head with your error.